King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Right. Djokovic OWNS Nadal (28-26) and Federer (26-22) but gets OWNED by Stan. That DOMINANT 6-19 H2H speaks for itself.
What is it that Stanimal has over Djokovic which Roger and Rafa don’t have?
- Thread starter Badabing888
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Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Sure, many people were nervous about the Wimbledon match or the AO 2017 match. So was I. It's only natural. Everybody will be nervous about a USO Final too. Again, only natural. That's what it means to be a fan. The match will be 50/50 and it will be huge, and Nadal will always have a huge advantage at RG, but none of that means that Nadal "owns" Federer right now just because the overall record is 10-4 in slams. No one will believe that anymore unless Nadal can put some work in from here on out and actually start beating Federer in slams again, preferably for him outside of RG where he can actually change the feel and narrative of the rivalry instead of beating Federer for the umpteenth time at RG which tells us nothing.
Badabing888
Hall of Fame
As I said in my OP forget head to head for now. Stan is the only player who has beaten Novak since 2014 in slams 4 times and stopped him winning those slams. It’s not an accident. Federer hasn’t beaten Novak in a slam since Wimbledon 2012. Rafa last beat Novak at a slam on his beloved clay in 2014 at RG in the final IIRC.
This isn’t Stan has beaten Djokovic 4 times in slams and is therefore the superior/greater player than Novak thread. Clearly not. I just want to understand why Stan specifically has found a formula to beat Novak, whilst Roger and Rafa haven’t in the last 5 years at the slams.
aman92
Legend
People are misunderstanding the point of OP's post...he is talking about recent H2H especially in slams where Stan has found a formula to beat Djokovic consistently. Of course Federer and Nadal have a better H2H against Djokovic than Stan simply because they have been the better players over the large parts of their careers than Wawrinka. However, Djokovic has dominated the two in recent slam meetings whereas Wawrinka despite being am inferior player than Fedal has somehow found something to crack Djokovic's game that the other two haven't
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metsman
G.O.A.T.
Stan's groundies are not as reliant on precision footwork as Nadal or Federer and he's not as FH reliant either. As a result he can unload and dictate play against Djoker much more compared to Fedal who lost that ability years and years ago.
That being said, last night was not some monstrous performance. Stan served quite well and raised the level off the ground at the end of the 2nd but Djoker was clearly below par. Of course Stan is one of the few on this tour, if not the only one, who can really take advantage of that.
That being said, last night was not some monstrous performance. Stan served quite well and raised the level off the ground at the end of the 2nd but Djoker was clearly below par. Of course Stan is one of the few on this tour, if not the only one, who can really take advantage of that.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Stan has won 4 out of the last 5 matches. Stan lives and breathes for majors since 2014
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
To be fair it's not Nadal's fault that Djokovic can't reach him for 3 straight years in RG.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
But according to you, Djokovic would have destroyed Nadal had they meet, right ??
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
Oh right, that old chestnut that he only cares about majors LOL
Where has he been in those majors the last few years?
Rickenbacker4003
Hall of Fame
And Novak can thank his beloved hard court for his numbers as well. Both are clearly the best on their specific surfaces.
robthai
Hall of Fame
2 hardcourt slams and they met 6 times. 1 clay slam and they met 7 times. It is heavily skewed in Nadals favor.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Power serve that Novak can't seem to read 90 % of the time. and very very heavy groundies that Novak can't control as well. Novak's racket seem to get pushed around more with hitting against Stan than roger or Rafa. Sure you would think RAFA's topspin would be just as or more heavier than Stan's topspin shots. but it seems like RAFA's RPM shots isn't as heavy as Stan's due to light racket that rafa uses.
Badabing888
Hall of Fame
I never said it was. But Rafa hasn’t beaten Novak outside his favourite grand slam and surface since US Open final 2013. Is Rafa just a clay court specialist? Of course not.
duaneeo
Legend
Rafa owned Federer. Since 2015, 6-1 (4-0 in finals) Federer.
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
I agree with the posts very good points
I would expect that once the ball is flying after impact with the racket, and in particular after hitting the ground, it doesn't matter how light-weighted or heavy-weighted the racket was, the underlying factors is what matters: speed / pace, RPM, trajectory, the height at which the player hits the ball
a10best
Hall of Fame
Well, I don't know about "your narrative", the media and general tennis public already have it ingrained that Nadal owns Federer no matter the last 2 1/2 years results.
Unfortunately, our thoughts don't relay to other minds, the media does. Federer has a ways to go to change the narrative, feel and H2H, plain & simple.
He has been dominated by the other two big 3 players in his prime. Close losses or not. He needs to beat both 2-3 times in a row at slams, then retire.
Fed just said this USO surface was slow a week ago which doesn't bode well in another H2H.
However, isn't IW slow and Miami fast where Fed blitzed him?
For the record and to be accurate, Fed has just 6 losses to Nadal at RG, which is hardly umpteenth.
Nadal is 3-1 against Fed at AO. Fed is 3-1 against Nadal at Wimbledon.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Wawrinka lost his fear of Djokovic when he beat him in the semis of 2014 AO and then in the finals of 2015 RG and 2016 USO. He knows now that he can beat him if he's playing at his top level and last night vindicated that feeling once more.
By contrast, Djokovic is now firmly in the heads of both Nadal (off clay) and Federer.
By contrast, Djokovic is now firmly in the heads of both Nadal (off clay) and Federer.
Badabing888
Hall of Fame
Also Stan and Novak have played a number of gruelling 5 setters at both AO and USO before Stan beat Novak at QF AO 2014 on his way to the title. I remember an on court interview after one of the 5 sets Novak beat Stan, I think in the semis of US open 2012. He said Novak was “f’ing tough”. Made me lol, because whoever interviewed him had to tell him off and apologise for Stan swearing. Lol.
SumYungGai
Semi-Pro
Plain and simple, his weight of shot on both sides is like none other and Djokovic gives him rhythm. Djokovic also always wants to beat Stan his way and doesn't want to change his style. This match reminded me of the 2015 final at the French.
Gazelle
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic doesn't like hard DTL shots towards his forehand. His forehand is very good at handling CC shots, but for some reason can break down when battered by DTL shots.
Wawrinka has that massive DTL backhand which is his favourite shot. Fed doesn't nearly hit that one as often as he should against Djokovic. Nadal has had great success against Djokovic when he's unloading on his DTL lefty forehand, but is often reluctant to do so, unless when he's very confident.
Wawrinka has that massive DTL backhand which is his favourite shot. Fed doesn't nearly hit that one as often as he should against Djokovic. Nadal has had great success against Djokovic when he's unloading on his DTL lefty forehand, but is often reluctant to do so, unless when he's very confident.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
It was 2013.
I remember several people back in the day saying that when Vitas and Bjorn practised together, Vitas would often come out on top. However when they played for "real" he never recorded a single victory in an ATP match.
I think the difference was in practice Vitas like most players played better as more relaxed but Bjorn was the opposite and only really turned it on when he had to.
I think that there is no doubt Stan practising with Novak has taken away that awe and fear factor that most have, including Stan.
It used to be that Novak owned him completely at one point for several years, but since 2014 their H2H is 4-4 and incredibly 4-1 to Stan in the slams.
During the same period Novak is 11-4 against Rafa and 3-1 in the slams and 12-6 against Roger and 5-0 in the slams, which is astounding.
So all you Rafa/Roger fanboys should hope Stan continues to play for next 3-4 years and keeps ending up on same side of draw as Novak.
D
Deleted member 762343
Guest
You make it sound like Wawrinka beat Djokovic more often in GS matches than Federer and Nadal did. He didn't.
And Wawrinka beat a healthy Djokovic only twice in GS matches, one of these matches has been played on clay which is Djokovic’s worst surface and Wawrinka's best one. So let's put things into perspective.
And Wawrinka beat a healthy Djokovic only twice in GS matches, one of these matches has been played on clay which is Djokovic’s worst surface and Wawrinka's best one. So let's put things into perspective.
duaneeo
Legend
Without question Nole is firmly in Federer's head, but not Nadal's. If he were, Rafa would be losing to him on clay as well. Djokovic beats Rafa off clay (mostly hard) not because he's in Rafa's head, but because he's the better hardcourt player.
Mr Feeny
Hall of Fame
Not just that. He had a silly comment about Federer needing more wins to make it "respectable" even though Federer leads on 2 of the 3 surfaces.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Hmmm.....I know Nadal remains supremely and justifiably confident on clay but, on other surfaces, I still think Djokovic is in his head (witness the beatdown he gave Nadal in the final of the AO this year).
Mr Feeny
Hall of Fame
Nadal is a better clay counter than Federer is a hard court player or a grass court player. And Novak is a lot worse at clay than on either of the aforementioned surfaces. Even if Novak was in Nadal's head, I'm not sure it would make that much of a difference in clay where Nadal is leaps and bounds better than Djokovic or anyone there.
But I think the point stands anywhere else other tha. clay.
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
Wawrinka played way better in 15
Yesterday he was okay but not great
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
From the time Stanimal has come out, he has won 3 different majors. Nadal just his usual FO and the one USO
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Yes it matters. why don't you hit against a 5.0 player with Wilson prostaff weighted in the head to SW of 335 to 340 or so. and compare that to a guy playing with aeropro Stock version with SW of 320. There is huge difference when the ball makes contact with your racket head
alexio
G.O.A.T.
and wimbledon 18...it's all interconnected variables
sliceroni
Hall of Fame
Easy power, deep balls from both sides...that's what she said.. Seriously, mph wise you'll see guys hit with more pace but flat,then just run out of gas from trying to hit through Nole. Stan can go all day hitting at that pace. Watch the trajectory of Stan's shots, more air and heavy, the krytonite for Nole. Stan's defense is also way underrated. Federer used to throw off Nole with his fh like 7-8 yrs ago, but no longer has that option.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
No. The media and tennis public are talking about how Federer has turned the rivalry with Nadal around somewhat. They have to be because Federer is forcing them to by winning many recent matches and only losing to Nadal at RG which everyone knew was going to happen anyway.
Anyway, I really don't think this is a debatable topic right now. We should stop here. Nadal doesn't "own" Federer as it stands today. It's a past tense thing unless Nadal can start beating Federer regularly again.
Adam233789
New User
Sometimes a particular player just hits the ball in a certain way that the opponent handles extremely well. For whatever reason, Novak's ball comes in at just the right height and speed for Stan, so he can crush ball after ball. Plus, I think Stan gets really pumped up to play Novak.
duaneeo
Legend
Though clay is Djokovic's worst surface and Wawrinka's best, Nole has an 83% W-L record at RG (80% overall on clay), while Stan has a 75% record at RG (67% overall on clay).
a10best
Hall of Fame
We agree he doesn't own him since 2017. It'll be a good match either way if it does happen.
24-16....
alexio
G.O.A.T.
it can hardly be black and white only... there's really a fine line.. rafa' confidence on clay is stronger than this mental issue of having someone in its head as a deciding factor, good example of that is wimbledon 18..we can't say djoko was better as a grass courter in that match
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Federer fans are delusional if they think Federer can beat Nadal over 5 sets in Arthur Ashe. He got hammered in Paris, and took over 3 hrs to beat a poor nadal on nadals worse surface and federers best.
Federer has always beaten Nadal in Shanghai and basel. The last HC Major they played federer playing better than now beat a Nadal playing worse than now who was spent after almost a 6 hr SF with a days less rest in 5 sets..
If they meet in final at best Federer gets a set.
Stan is aggressive. And he plays aggressive more often than the big 3. (Yes even Fed!). But that’s also why he doesn’t win as often, because he is unable to slow his game down effectively when he needs to.
What I found amazing about his performance was how he forced Djoko to play aggressively too - but without much avail, and sure his injury probably didn’t help. It’s not often you see the best pusher of all time trying to hit so many winners - he had to, Stan was just too hot
What I found amazing about his performance was how he forced Djoko to play aggressively too - but without much avail, and sure his injury probably didn’t help. It’s not often you see the best pusher of all time trying to hit so many winners - he had to, Stan was just too hot
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
I think there's much over-analyzing here on this question. Tennis at the level of Djoker-Stan is mostly mental. To illustrate this, would Novak had retired last night had he been playing Fed? Very doubtful. Why? Because he knows he's in Roger's head and knows he's come back to win matches against him when down 0-2 in sets. He quit last night because Stanimal doesn't choke against him and has been mentally solid against him in huge matches in the match.
Both Nadal and especially Fed have mental scars playing Novak and that impacts their play negatively. Stan doesn't have the mental baggage.
Both Nadal and especially Fed have mental scars playing Novak and that impacts their play negatively. Stan doesn't have the mental baggage.
smalahove
Hall of Fame
I think you're spot on.
The only thing I'd add is that 1) is also complimented by the threat of Thor unleashing his hammer
And reg 2), the ohbh is much easier to disguise than the thbh when it comes to CC/DTL, playing out wide on the ad side, but just as with a good slice serve on the deuce side, even if you know the danger or that it's coming, there's not much to do about it. The pattern just works. When you're into a CC backhand rally with Stan, you see him getting into position, and you know he can easily pull the trigger both ways, whilst holding just that little bit longer. Yes, Novak is also very good at the DTL backhand, but it's a more difficult shot if you wait to offset the opponent, as it requires earlier commitment than Stan's ohbh.
Eren
Professional
No, the point should be/is that Stanimal has won 4/5 Slam matches played against Djokovic 2014-present.
All the time, Djokovic was in good form (no excuses, dude was on a tear in 2015 and ended up losing that FO final, won 4/5 most recent Slams and lost to him at UO '16. Was going to win AO '14 if not for Stan and now had won 4/5 again and still lost to Wawrinka).
From 2014-present Federer is 0-5 in majors against Djokovic, Nadal is 1-3 and Stanimal is 4-1
against this beast.Now, inb4 "Djokovic wasn't at his best at this year's USO" who said stan is? No one knows. Regardless of excuses, Wawrinka is a surreal player in certain BIG matches, that can not be denied.
It's interesting that when facing each other over their career in majors, Novak's and Stan's results look like a pair of bookends.
Novak won their first 3 matches - 2 at the US Open and 1 at the AO, two of those lengthy 5 set matches.
Then the two exchanged wins at the Australian Open, both in 5 sets.
Finally, Stan has won the last 3 matches, 2 at the US Open, and 1 at RG, their only clay match in majors, with 0 on grass.
Djokovic won their first match in 2012 at the USO when Stan lost the first 2 sets and retired in the 3rd set (3-1). Stan won their last match (so far) last night when Djokovic lost the first 2 sets and retired in the 3rd set (2-1).
Visually:
[ ND: 2 sets - 0 ret, ND: 3-2, ND: 3-2, | SW: 3-2, ND: 3-2, | SW: 3-1, SW: 3-1, SW: 2 sets - 0 ret.]
As one can see overall, Stan leads Novak 17 sets to 15 sets in slam play.
It's also a bit unusual that Stan, the older player by a little over 2 years, lost his first 3 to Novak, the younger player, early in their slam history, but has beaten the younger player late in their last 3 in their slam history.
Novak won their first 3 matches - 2 at the US Open and 1 at the AO, two of those lengthy 5 set matches.
Then the two exchanged wins at the Australian Open, both in 5 sets.
Finally, Stan has won the last 3 matches, 2 at the US Open, and 1 at RG, their only clay match in majors, with 0 on grass.
Djokovic won their first match in 2012 at the USO when Stan lost the first 2 sets and retired in the 3rd set (3-1). Stan won their last match (so far) last night when Djokovic lost the first 2 sets and retired in the 3rd set (2-1).
Visually:
[ ND: 2 sets - 0 ret, ND: 3-2, ND: 3-2, | SW: 3-2, ND: 3-2, | SW: 3-1, SW: 3-1, SW: 2 sets - 0 ret.]
As one can see overall, Stan leads Novak 17 sets to 15 sets in slam play.
It's also a bit unusual that Stan, the older player by a little over 2 years, lost his first 3 to Novak, the younger player, early in their slam history, but has beaten the younger player late in their last 3 in their slam history.
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MugOpponent
Hall of Fame
It's beautiful to watch. I know this much. Djokovic really has no answers for Stan's A game.
it only matters if the opponent steps on the court.
most if not all pros have injuries and pain.
and you can only defeat whoever is on the other side of the net. or lose to whoever is on the other side of the net.
all these excuses about healthy / unhealthy are hilarious.
the man made it to R4, he decided to step on the court. end of the story.
no it doesn't.
all that matters is:
- speed of the incoming ball
- RPM
- trajectory (arc) of the ball
- height at which you try to hit the ball
whether the ball was launched from a light Babolat (260g) in stock form or leaded RF97 doesn't matter at the moment when your racket faces the ball.
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