Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
I think the key word there is "substantially". He played pretty well in Miami 2007; it's just that he ran into Djokovic in the QFs instead of the final.
Fun take: 2007 Nadal was better than 2011 Nadal on all surfaces when healthy
- Thread starter AnOctorokForDinner
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GabeT
G.O.A.T.
But 2007 Nole was a far cry from his 2011 version. Being stopped by Nole in 2007 is not the same as in 2011. Nadal‘s 2007 HC results (which are about 2/3 of the pro tour) were not very good.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Not really, considering 2007 Nadal did substantially better in Canada, Paris and YEC.
Only technically due to playing eventual winner Djokovic in QF. Would have won otherwise (who was stopping him, Canas? lolz), same as 2011.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic was better in 2011 obviously but he showed glimpses of prime in 07, Miami was one of those tournaments.
Losing to eventual winners in 4 of the 6 HC masters (winning another one) and YEC is not good now, haha. The slams were the weak point, but in 2011 he was only good at the USO not AO, so you're saying 2011 is better because of one tournament.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm not interested in sub-1000 tournaments when we're discussing slam winning seasons. Fact is, Nadal either won or lost an elimination match to the eventual winner in 11 of 14 top tournaments in 2007 (exceptions: AO, USO, Cincy), in 8/14 in 2011 (exceptions: AO, Canada, Cincy, Shanghai, Paris, YEC).
Comparing exceptions, AO is similar (straight-set QF loss), Cincy slightly better in 2011 but still bad (straight-set QF loss to Fish) so irrelevant. That leaves Canada, Shanghai, Paris, YEC as weak tournaments for Nadal in 2011 (won 2 matches total, ha), and USO in 2007. I don't think a slam is more important than 3 masters + YEC.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
We seem to constantly change the measuring stick. All of a sudden masters are important but sub 1000 no? Let’s recall that using that approach then Novak’s 2015 season is clearly above Fed’s 2006.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
It is, although the difference is smaller than it seems since the Rome epic forced Federer (and Nadal) out of Hamburg (which couldn't have happened in 2015 with BO3 finals), but Djo still has an extra masters final beyond that.
Note that hasn't always been the case, sub-1000 tournaments declined in 2002, with a new ranking system putting more emphasis on masters tournaments.
titoelcolombiano
Legend
Ok
2005: Fed (SF)
2006: Fed
2007: Fed
2008: Fed
2011: Fed
2012: Djoker
2014: Djoker
2019: Fed (SF)
titoelcolombiano
Legend
Going through Djokovic & Federer for 12 of your 19 slams > going through Philippousis, Roddick, Hewitt, Baghdatis, Gonzales, Oldgassi, baby Rafa and baby Djoker for 12 of your 20 slams.
Who exactly is having a logic fail here?
titoelcolombiano
Legend
What does TIL mean?
NatF
Bionic Poster
Not even addressing the point. Not surprising from a Dull fan like you.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
The real question is Shawn Michaels first run, or Shawn Michaels second run? 
2011 and 2012 were decent for 2-3 sets I suppose.
titoelcolombiano
Legend
lol - ok, so are you saying with a straight face that Fed's title opponents were tougher than Rafa's?
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
2007 wasn't too shabby either. I rate that RG version of Fed higher than 2006.
titoelcolombiano
Legend
Don't be too hard on Fed - Rafa is just better than him, not Fed's fault.
Only on clay. Fed is better everywhere else.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Inb4 Nadal is better on outdoor hard
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
H2H says RAFA is true Cincy goat, no?
ForehandRF
Legend
I agree and that can be said about Rafa too.Federer was just @Breakpointerer in that match.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
2007 Nadal did better only in the fall season, which he usually doesn't care about.
Up to UO 2011 Nadal was a beast.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
2003 Freddy was better than 1990 Freddy
NatF
Bionic Poster
Across their careers I don't see how you could say Nadal had it significantly tougher with a straight face - let alone much tougher like you seem to think.
RS
Bionic Poster
Federer won a big poll about who had the toughest competition quite a few times. Then you have Lew showing with stats Djokovic had it by far the toughest. I don’t think it’s only him lol. Maybe you can argue for any of them having it the toughest but it certainly isn’t by a big margin which ever way.
NatF
Bionic Poster
No I think they've had roughly similar competition, I think Nadal's first 7 slams were tougher but it's evened out now.
ForehandRF
Legend
@ReeceSachs & @NatF Of course the hyperpartizan fanatics won't understand such things.Some of them will stop watching tennis once their idol retires.
titoelcolombiano
Legend
Ok, would you like me to list their GS final opponents again?
titoelcolombiano
Legend
Is he though? Australian Open H2H 3 - 1 - lol
ForehandRF
Legend
It'about how good they are overall in their careers, not in a matchup consisting of just 4 matches.Leading the h2h is useless if that is not sustained by titles won.
titoelcolombiano
Legend
You mean like 19 > 17 slams at the same age? Or like 35 - 28 in M1000? Lucky Fed has five additional years and 2003 - 2007 or it could have gotten real embarrassing for him.
ForehandRF
Legend
Five additional what ? In that same period Nadal was winning slams and adding to his legacy.He would have won 2 titles at Wimby too had Federer not been in his way.
Let's see who ends up with more slams, that it's all that matters at the end of the day, not how many slams they had at a certain age.
Nadal_Django
Legend
But 19/20 y/o Rafa was peaking in 2006 and 2007, playing the best tennis of his career, and Fed was still owning him outside clay as he was owning the other Peaking monsters those years like Roddick, Blake, Kiefer, Hewitt and Baghdatis, thus Peak Fed invincible with the highest peak evah, in the toughest competition evah, and Peak 2005-2007 Rafa just his sidekick.
Thank god Fedr becomed old, monoed and washed up in 2008, and all those other tennis Ubermenschen like Nalbandian, Hewitt, Roddick, Blake, Baghdatis also suffered debilitating injuries during that time, otherwise no Slams for the poor Peak Rafa outside clay for many years after 2007.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Names without talking about how they played is meaningless. But I don't care to take this any further with a fanatic like you.
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Luckily Nadal has 2008 which is weaker than 2007, and also 0 clay competition his entire career.
At this point you’re just a parody of yourself.But 19/20 y/o Rafa was peaking in 2006 and 2007, playing the best tennis of his career, and Fed was still owning him outside clay as he was owning the other Peaking monsters those years like Roddick, Blake, Kiefer, Hewitt and Baghdatis, thus Peak Fed invincible with the highest peak evah, in the toughest competition evah, and Peak 2005-2007 Rafa just his sidekick.
Thank god Fedr becomed old, monoed and washed up in 2008, and all those other tennis Ubermenschen like Nalbandian, Hewitt, Roddick, Blake, Baghdatis also suffered debilitating injuries during that time, otherwise no Slams for the poor Peak Rafa outside clay for many years after 2007.
titoelcolombiano
Legend
I wouldn't go as far as saying that Fed is a weak opponent, that is a little too disrespectful to an all-time great of the game.
titoelcolombiano
Legend
So names like Djokovic or Federer 12 times mean nothing? Yes, I can see why you don't want to talk about it anymore
titoelcolombiano
Legend
I think that is a point we can definately agree on
NatF
Bionic Poster
On clay their worst surface for the most part so yeah doesn't mean as much as you think.
titoelcolombiano
Legend
Wins against Fed or Djoker for a slam title by Nadal off clay:
AO 2009 v Fed
WIM 2008 v Fed
USO 2010 v Djoker
USO 2013 v Djoker
Wins by Fed or Djoker against Nadal for the title on clay:
0
I think it actually means a lot more than you think
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
It means Nadal has better mental discipline and doesn't choke big matches.
Meles
Bionic Poster
Comparing gimpy vs gimpy, classic TTW.
NatF
Bionic Poster
The ones against Federer were impressive, those Djokovic ones at the USO not so much considering form.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Might be the toughest question to answer all day. I think this is where the Mr. Wrestlemania part kicks in, and he had so many of them in the second run. Angle, Jericho, Cena, Benoit/Triple, Undertaker twice etc. But then you have to look past Wrestlemania to be fair. I'm not being fair to Flair here. haha Nah, I just don't fancy that match much in comparison to the rest. Think I'm leaning towards door 2.The real question is Shawn Michaels first run, or Shawn Michaels second run?
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Federer never had the luxury of consistently having mugs to win a particular Slam. To say that Nadal's US Open draws are beyond the joke is the understatement of the century.
Also, the nerve you Hambas have to talk about how Fed had it easier in the light of recent events is just beyond me. Or is this just the Berrettini effect?
Looking forward to Nadal playing Lajovic in the 2020 US Open final too, eh?
titoelcolombiano
Legend
Firstly, if Nadal gets to play Lajovic in the 2020 US Open final then yes please, bring it on
Re: Fed having it easier, go and list the finalists that both have had for their slam titles, compare the names and then get back to me and tell me with a straight face that Fed's list isn't preferable. When you are comparing them also remember that Rafa's Ferrer and Puerta slams were made possible by beating Djokovic and Federer in each respective semi-final.
titoelcolombiano
Legend
Well in 2010 Djokovic won the Davis Cup pretty much single handedly for Serbia and was about to go on his monster 2011 run so I'd say his form was pretty decent. In 2013 he was the world number 1 so.......
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think listing his achievements from other, separate tournaments helps support the arguments that he played well in either final. Federer was also ranked No. 1 when he played one of the worst matches of his career against Volandri in Rome 2007. Likewise, Nadal was also the No. 1 player when Dustin Brown took him out in straights at Halle.
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