StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
You can think that if you want, but your arguments make no sense.
WTF title: One Glaring Big Hole in Nadal's career
- Thread starter guanzishou
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Xemi666
Professional
No, majors are slams. WTF is a glorified Masters.
Drob
Hall of Fame
Of course the Slams always have been a big deal. You are correct in the sense that they were not as big in the past, in that players did not see them as the single measuring stick. As recently as the 2019 Wimbledon finals coverage on ESPN, Chris Fowler said, "It used to be about a lot more than majors." (I think this is the comment you are referring to). I took down the quote and just pulled it up from my telephone. Fowler said the change toward higher emphasis on Slams came w Federer. Probably the biggest factor was Pistol Pete announcing he was gunning for Emerson's record of 12. I think that started the switch (more like a swivel) in focus among tennis fans, press, and so on.
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Tennis_Hands
Banned
Yep. The only thing I would add is that the Majors obsession started with Pete (as you correctly noted when he was gunning for the record of Emmo). The media took it from there, when Federer's meteoric rise happened (but Federer has always been aware of that storyline, so it is difficult to say that he didn't care about it).
D
Deleted member 763691
Guest
Dimitrov's status hasn't changed one bit since winning the ATP Finals.
Similarly, Rafa's status wouldn't change if he won the ATP Finals.
But, the ATP Finals would become more credible if Rafa won it, so I can see why Federer/Djokovic fans are so obsessed with the idea of Rafa winning it.
As long as Rafa doesn't win the ATP Finals, Federer/Djokovic fans will feel like their guys achievements are undervalued....
Whereas its impossible to undervalue an Olympic Singles Gold Medal
Similarly, Rafa's status wouldn't change if he won the ATP Finals.
But, the ATP Finals would become more credible if Rafa won it, so I can see why Federer/Djokovic fans are so obsessed with the idea of Rafa winning it.
As long as Rafa doesn't win the ATP Finals, Federer/Djokovic fans will feel like their guys achievements are undervalued....
Whereas its impossible to undervalue an Olympic Singles Gold Medal
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Boom-Boom
Legend
Dimitrov's status hasn't changed one bit since winning the ATP Finals.
Similarly, Rafa's status wouldn't change if he won the ATP Finals.
But, the ATP Finals would become more credible if Rafa won it, so I can see why Federer/Djokovic fans are so obsessed with the idea of Rafa winning it.
As long as Rafa doesn't win the ATP Finals, Federer/Djokovic fans will feel like their guys achievements are undervalued....
Whereas its impossible to undervalue an Olympic Singles Gold Medal
lol stop embarrassing yourself and go back studying tennis history
all Tier 1 ATG have won WTF except Nadal, Tier 2 for ever
For me, it's irrelevant, since Fed has 6 titles. It's 1 gold vs 6 titles, you would only have a point if we compare 1 WTF vs 1 gold. And Rafa has only two indoor titles, so 1 WTF title doesn't suddenly make his indoor record go away compared to Fed. Yes, RAfa alone is well rounded amazing, but not comparing him to Federer. But, Rafa has his clay dominance to compensate for some of the gap, but in my opinion, still not enough. But, I don't see it as a huge deal, because indoor titles aren't majors. But Nadal has what 5 grass finals 10 HC finals, still not such a huge hole as people think. I'm an expert in circular reasoning here and people do it against Nadal, somehow penalizing him because of too much clay success. Hey, if he had only 6 RG titles, he would look way more well rounded using this logic.
BringBackSV
Hall of Fame
Fed can have more WTF titles, Id rather Nads be up in GS titles.
BringBackSV
Hall of Fame
3/10 trolling
D
Deleted member 763691
Guest
LOL "Tier 1 ATG" isn't even a thing
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
There are many other Exos he hasn't won, yet nobody is complaining about those...
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
I was with you right up until the spoiler.i defended the Olympics on other occasions, but DJ crying is not a big argument.
team(nations) events tend to bring out the emotions.
i've seen a guy like Kyrgios getting emotional for 'the rest of the world'
and even non-patriotic me would feel something if my countrykids would cheer for me at the Olympics.
ofc this atmosphere still adds to the relevance of the event, but one shouldn't overrate it. getting emotional is too easy (for too many people)
and he's called Faker for a reason.
All tier 1 ATGs have also won more than 15 majors, so good luck to Borg and Sampras tier 2 for ever.
tacou
G.O.A.T.
Unsurprisingly I find myself in the middle of the road here.
I think WTF is a very important and prestigious event, but I think winning Miami, IW, and a few other non-slam events is more impressive, mostly due to the fact that players are so tired/injured by the time year end rolls around, you don't feel like the tournament is really showcasing the most "elite" tennis of the season. Similarly, it's not uncommon for one or several of the 5-8 guys to play with the "happy to be here" attitude.
Holding it on the same surface every year also undercuts the idea of it being a true year end spectacle. It's really just the end of the indoor season.
So, is it a gap on Nadal's resume? Of course. He's done everything else.
But to me it's the same as saying someone without a Monte Carlo title has a huge hole..yeah, it's a prestigious event with lots of $$ and points, but at the end of the day it's one of many big clay events. Not going to hold it against any ATG for not having it.
I think WTF is a very important and prestigious event, but I think winning Miami, IW, and a few other non-slam events is more impressive, mostly due to the fact that players are so tired/injured by the time year end rolls around, you don't feel like the tournament is really showcasing the most "elite" tennis of the season. Similarly, it's not uncommon for one or several of the 5-8 guys to play with the "happy to be here" attitude.
Holding it on the same surface every year also undercuts the idea of it being a true year end spectacle. It's really just the end of the indoor season.
So, is it a gap on Nadal's resume? Of course. He's done everything else.
But to me it's the same as saying someone without a Monte Carlo title has a huge hole..yeah, it's a prestigious event with lots of $$ and points, but at the end of the day it's one of many big clay events. Not going to hold it against any ATG for not having it.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Almost every tennis match in this edition has been a nail biter, even the blowouts. I don't think that it gets much more "impressive" than that. I also don't see the "happy to be there" attitude, even from Berrettini (he is not a freaking Gaudio, that is for sure).
As for the surface, exactly because it is that part of the season it makes the most sense to be on one. It is absurd to suggest that it should be rotated just because some players are not good enough to win it, and it doesn't diminish its significance because of it as some people seem to suggest.
I a kind of have to disagree on the comparison with MC as well. MC is as you say, just another clay court tournament ( an M1000, but a non mandatory event). WTF is the biggest indoor title, so the natural comparison should be with the biggest titles on every respective surface.
ForehandRF
Legend
Monte Carlo is not even mandatory but still, a win there would have been good.Federer has 2 Madrid titles and 4 Hamburg titles, which is not bad at all.The only problem is that he failed to win Rome.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Antonio Puente
Hall of Fame
If no WTF is a hole in Nadal's record, a 10-20 slam record vs. Nadal and Djoker is a black hole in Fed's record, one you can't escape from. If there were official round robin rules to goathood, this fact would bring an immediate death sentence for Fed's candidacy.
Nadal will likely finish with several more slams than Fed along with 10-15 more masters and a gold medal. WTF won't mean a damn thing and everyone knows it.
Hey, Fed, we have a deal for you. You can trade your WTFs for a few more slams to further distance yourself from Nadal.
Fed: Where the f&ck do I sign up?
Nadal will likely finish with several more slams than Fed along with 10-15 more masters and a gold medal. WTF won't mean a damn thing and everyone knows it.
Hey, Fed, we have a deal for you. You can trade your WTFs for a few more slams to further distance yourself from Nadal.
Fed: Where the f&ck do I sign up?
No it's not, because h2h doesn't count in titles, you just made that up. And even in MMA it doesn't count. We could argue Diaz won 2-0 vs Conor, but nobody will say Diaz is on Conor's level. I remember Chael Sonnen almost beating Silva and nobody is saying he is close to his level. So not even in your stupid MMA logic, this doesn't work. And Khabib is like Nadal, he dominates one "surface", but he is not considered the goat, because GSP defended multiple titles across different divisions.
So, if you want to use MMA logic, fine, but even under this logic GSP is still considered the goat even when Khabib is undefeated. Tell, me, if you want to use MMA h2h logic, then also use that you need to DEFEND TITLES!
This will always be a point of controversy between tennis fans. When the ATP, the governing body of professional mens tennis, has the power to award an event zero points and has done so in the case of Olympic mens tennis it's saying something about how little clout Olympic mens tennis has in the tennis world.
Yes, of course Fed has stains, nobody is perfect, but the argument is not who is perfect, but who has the least stains and Federer is.
But 6 WTF vs 1 gold is not the same, it's not like Fed only has 1 WTF title. You should do the math 6 vs 1 is not the same. Also you argue that WTF is every year, well that gives Nadal even more chances to win it, so it's even bigger gap that he has 0, why do you think WTF being once a year helps Nadal? It makes it worse.
Weak era Fed and past prime Nole and rubbish next gen? It's weak draws even at WTF and Rafa still can't win, that's why it's said. If he lost 6 times in finals vs Nole, sure then I would say Nadal is great and wouldn't mind if he didn't win, but his indoor record is terrible.
Almost every ATG since Jimmy Connors in 1977 has won the end-of-year champions(WTF by it's current name) at least once in their careers. From 1977 onwards ATG winners have been Connors, McEnroe, Borg, Lendl, Becker, Edberg, Agassi, Sampras, Federer, Djokovic. This list of players between them have practically dominated mens tennis since 1977.
Off the top of my head the multislam winners/ATGs who haven't won it from 1977 onwards are Wilander, Courier and Nadal. Don't delude yourselves into thinking Nadal doesn't want to be amongst such an illustrious list of former WTF champions. All ATGs since '77 have done it with 3, by my count, notable exceptions.
Off the top of my head the multislam winners/ATGs who haven't won it from 1977 onwards are Wilander, Courier and Nadal. Don't delude yourselves into thinking Nadal doesn't want to be amongst such an illustrious list of former WTF champions. All ATGs since '77 have done it with 3, by my count, notable exceptions.
Karma Tennis
Legend
Awww, poor wittle Tennis Hands. Things that Indoor Tennis is the true mark of a champion. Sterile conditions with a surface where the ball usually bounces true every time is the ultimate test. LOL.
Still our good friend Tennis Hands would much rather win his Indoor HC Tennis Tournaments that multiple titles at Wimbledon and Roland Garros. Makes his beloved Rog. look soo much better that way.
The MALE GOAT Laver probably played ten times as much tennis on Indoor Courts during his Pro. Career in the 1960s than your old man Federer has since. And when he returned from the Wilderness, he immediately won his second GRAND SLAM. Go Figure!
Xemi666
Professional
Yes, I'm sure Nadal is hugely disappointed with his 2 slam-season and would gladly trade a couple RGs for the WTF... not.
Zverev, Thiem and Tsitsipas battling it out for the most important title of the season, right guys?
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Pretty sure he's not the one who ran away
Yes, I'm sure Nadal is hugely disappointed with his 2 slam-season and would gladly trade a couple RGs for the WTF... not.
Zverev, Thiem and Tsitsipas battling it out for the most important title of the season, right guys?
I'm saying the WTF is one of the top titles which almost all ATGs have won with notable exceptions. However it's you speculating, not me, you speculating Nadal would rather trade x for y.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Well, it would change the fact that he has never won the 2nd biggest title after the Slams and the biggest of all the indoor titles.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
That's it's strength. All the best tournaments are played on different surfaces. One of Nadal's chief complaints about the WTF is that it never rotates surfaces and he is stuck with trying to win it on hardcourt instead of having a chance on his beloved clay.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
It's not all about the Slams.
Xemi666
Professional
Yes, it kinda is.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Tour consists of much more. Wouldn't survive if it was only open for 8 weeks of the year.
steelcity32
Rookie
He played bravely this year to have a 2-1 record and secure #1. There's almost no way he goes 3-0 without a hiccup to guarantee semis on his worst surface/condition combo, so it's obvious why he hasn't had 5 straight wins there.
BringBackSV
Hall of Fame
Which will mean little in the grand scheme of things.
Meles
Bionic Poster
He's only won one indoor title in his career.
GOAT credentials destroyed by this and RG imbalance.Tennis_Hands
Banned
"Sterile conditions". I guess that it is just another way of calling different conditions such, eh? Poor you, and to think that you appreciate Laver for his completeness.
Your trollish approach towards what is being said tells me that your "appreciation" for tennis might not be as grounded in the game as you would like to present.
I am curious to know what is it that you call "wilderness".
I'd be over the moon if I were a Nadal fan right now. 19 slams? FIVE years at number one? Oldest year-end number one ever despite supposedly being condemned to a short career due to clay court specialization? Next year, he's golden. There's almost no way he doesn't hold the slam record at some point, which Fed fans, as well as Sampras, have pointed to always as the most important record in tennis.
I know it sounds strange bashing a "37.9-year-old," but 40-15 is more of a glaring hole in Federer's career than WTF is in Nadal's career. I won't get over 40-15 until Federer wins another slam title, which just might be never.
I know it sounds strange bashing a "37.9-year-old," but 40-15 is more of a glaring hole in Federer's career than WTF is in Nadal's career. I won't get over 40-15 until Federer wins another slam title, which just might be never.
ForehandRF
Legend
Why over the moon man ? You won't get paid a single dollar and Rafa won't even know who you are.I think people are sometimes too emotionally involved in those players they support.They have little impact in our lives if we think about it
Karma Tennis
Legend
Where did Sampras say that Majors Count was the most important record?
Sampras said this ...
Oh. So perhaps because Sampras thinks no one will ever achieve Laver's record, they have to settle for chasing Major Titles. Hmmm, so that means Laver IS the GOAT because he holds a record that no other player will ever achieve !
Also raises an interesting conundrum ... Would you rather win 20 individual Major Titles, or 15 Major Titles that comprise three GRAND SLAMS ?
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
AO wasn't as relevant, but the other three were.
BHud
Hall of Fame
Although Fed does have a gold medal...
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Wtf is much more important for tennis legacy than olympics and masters. Federer, Djok, Sampras all won it 5 or 6 times, any other ATG won it at least once, except Wilander.
The fact that Nadal, who qualified 15 times in row, could not win it even once!!!! Is a huge hole in his resume.
The fact that Nadal, who qualified 15 times in row, could not win it even once!!!! Is a huge hole in his resume.
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