Decline of Prince?

T

thelimfactor

Rookie
Hi everyone. Firstly I have used and liked Prince rackets for years (Prince More Control 850 for nearly 20 years and only recently switched to Babolat). I recall the number of pros using Prince in the 80's and 90's being quite/very high, but now its predominantly Wilson, Babs, Yonex and Head, with a spattering of Technifibre and hardly any Prince. Is it just me or are there other tennis lovers who also feel a bit nostalgic and a tiny bit sad to see a previously popular, powerful brand now seemingly much less popular and only a very minor player in tennis?
 
Cup8489

Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
I grew up with Prince frames, but I'll admit that alot of the offerings they had for a long period just werent for me. I do like some of the newer frames, but wish they'd have kept some of the old names. Not a fan of the Phantom name for instance. Seems a silly reason, I know. But that's just how I feel.

I think it also has to do with sponsored players. John Isner and Sam Querrey just... aren't big draws to be honest.

Still have a pair of POG Tour Mids, though. and a pair of 03 Whites, along with a trio of my first frames (Thundercloud :laughing:)
 
J

jdx2112

Hall of Fame
If you go back to the late 70s and early 80s when Prince broke into the market, they did so with 107-110 size heads, an innovation at the time. but almost no players on the men's tour used them. first significant pro I saw use a Prince racket was Michael Chang. But they were more common on the women's tour. Pam Shriver was one of the first I think. Sabatini, too.
 
2nd Serve Ace

2nd Serve Ace

Hall of Fame
Prince totally sold out on o-ports, which has some merit, but it went against the grain of the heavy topspin game that intermediates wanted to emulate.
 
ccmtennis

ccmtennis

Semi-Pro
I think it is declining from sales standpoint due to mostly lack of marketing as well as limited options to purchase them except here. Certainly however they have not declined the quality of their offerings for those of us who are open minded tennis enthusiasts.

I have been a long time Bab user myself, got caught up in all the generations of the APD since APDC model. As my game and level progressed (as well as my age) I was looking for more control but yet comfortable options and found the good old prince. I had a Prince response back in my high school days. I loved the TXT 310 tour which is still very underrated to the rest of the rec level players. As I reached a 4.5 level and wanted a fast action volley stick I demoed Beast 98 O3 model and grew into it which is my main stick now and I'm playin the best I have ever played. I've also demoed just about every single popular stick from all the major brands. If you stay focused on your needs and keep all the market hype BS out there , Prince will surprise you as they have a lot to offer in a competitive segment of the tennis rec level market.
 
B

BorgCash

Legend
jdx2112 said:
If you go back to the late 70s and early 80s when Prince broke into the market, they did so with 107-110 size heads, an innovation at the time. but almost no players on the men's tour used them. first significant pro I saw use a Prince racket was Michael Chang. But they were more common on the women's tour. Pam Shriver was one of the first I think. Sabatini, too.
Click to expand...
I can name you many male pros who used Prince before Chang. The first was, i think, was Gene Mayer, then there were Pat Cash, Martin Jaite, Kent Carlsson, Paul McNamee, Peter McNamara, Paul Annacone, others.
 
B

BorgCash

Legend
thelimfactor said:
Hi everyone. Firstly I have used and liked Prince rackets for years (Prince More Control 850 for nearly 20 years and only recently switched to Babolat). I recall the number of pros using Prince in the 80's and 90's being quite/very high, but now its predominantly Wilson, Babs, Yonex and Head, with a spattering of Technifibre and hardly any Prince. Is it just me or are there other tennis lovers who also feel a bit nostalgic and a tiny bit sad to see a previously popular, powerful brand now seemingly much less popular and only a very minor player in tennis?
Click to expand...
In list of seeded players of US Open 1987 top ten males used ten different racquet brands, top twenty - 15 different. I love that time.
 
max

max

Legend
The tennis market has always been difficult and Wilson always has maintained dominance. Head, during the Titanium Craze, did very well and was very competitive at #2. Prince in the late 70s-early 80s was very competitive in my area.

The big difficulty is that racquets don't quickly wear out and people really don't need to buy a racquet every year. By pushing constant change, this reinforces the market position of the big dog, since the little dogs have a tough time following.

If I were to put together a racquet company today, I think I'd buy the rights to older classics and just consistently crank these out. If I couldn't buy the rights, I'd make near copies with equal playability. I would just be cranking out the Pro Kennex 5G indefinitely, and the C-10, Wilson 6.0/85. Or pretty close copies.
 
max

max

Legend
fwiw, I avoided Prince like crazy during the 80s and 90s. Too much a woman's brand. Also disliked the brand for introducing the super large head.

The closest I came to getting a Prince was the Response Titanium, which felt pretty good. It was a half inch longer, and I think that's why I opted Volkl.

Now I've got a 93P and it does well. We need this one made in a 16 x 18.
 
P

PT280 Fan

Semi-Pro
For some reason I was never a Prince guy until two weeks ago when my first Textreme Beast 98 rolled in (got a second one as well on TW clearance). So far nothing but good impressions. Seems to me, this company is moving in the right direction as far as tennis frames with the Textreme line with Twaron. I was looking for a good tweener frame (sub 12 oz) with a little more easy power than my trusty PT280s. (Not the first time I've tried to replace the 280s in the last twenty five years, but may be the first one that actually sticks.) Loved the twaron in the 280s which has never given me so much as tennis elbow and these Prince Beast 98s seem to be just as plush feeling. I had one strung up with Ashaway Crossfire with kevlar mains and I don't feel a thing.

So far this has been an easy transition from the 280s as the balance and RA are in the same ball park. Fun stick to use and I already have some nice doubles wins with it (awesome for serving). Still keep a PT280 in the bag for those windy, gusty days as I find it cuts through the wind a lot better. Count me impressed and noticing a number of other serious recreational players still sporting the Prince rackets including a few with the classic bag.
 
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R

recreationalplayer

Semi-Pro
Babolat came into the market, quickly gained popularity with recreational and pro players alike, and could be the most significant single reason Prince eventually declared bankruptcy. I'm not nostalgic for Prince but they would have to make ground breaking, even never before seen improvements in racket design and performance to regain much market share.
 
dak95_00

dak95_00

Hall of Fame
Prince was ahead of their time but were only tennis unlike Wilson and Head. Prince attempted to get into golf but failed.

As you can tell from this forum, brand recognition and loyalty is very real.

I grew up playing at a Prince club. The stringer was a P200 which was loud, electric, and cool. The POG came in a suede case and the Boron has a full leather case. Wilson has to follow suit and upgrade from the head cover to full cases to keep up.

In the end, Prince is a good brand but will always be the little brother at best to the big boys such as Wilson.

Babolat catapulted to the top due to Rafa and Roddick. It’s really no different than Dunlop sticking around due to McEnroe and Graf. Head maintains presence due to Djokovic. Wilson has Federer and the Williams sisters. Prince needs a champion.
 
D

Deleted member 768841

Guest
IMO prince doesn’t have enough mainstream appeal. The logo, brand, marketing just isn’t popular among young tennis players. The only ones that play with prince have either been introduced by a coach or saw Isner using a prince. Compared to brands like Wilson, Babolat or Head they don’t have crazy racquet designs, crazy marketing or flashy players using them. Compare the PJ’s, there’s no comparison which one a newcomer to tennis would like more.
 
McGradey

McGradey

Hall of Fame
Aside from the business issues the brand has experienced, the brand perception needs some work I think. To me, and I'm sure to younger generations even more so, Prince is very much an old school brand with associations to the 80s/90s, parents, women's tennis, and older tennis players.
Prince hasn’t had a marketable player endorsing them for ages. Isner, Ferrer, Davydenko etc aren't going to sell racquets. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. Princes to the kings.

The new racquets look awesome, so it would be great to see them on the walls in the local shops again.
 
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T

tata

Hall of Fame
What's they're putting out there is great stuff. Problem is as soon as any pro that has the potential to help the brand gain popularity hits the tour, they get poached by another brand to endorse their products instead. And that's if they're hitting a Prince by the time they reach the pro level.
 
PBODY99

PBODY99

Legend
@Arzivu
Prince has been company that changed hands several times with many of the owners interested in the company as an assest play not as a sporting goods company.
The O_ports need a particular stringing method which Prince did not explain.
Rather than push the boomerang tool, which was a supply side nightmare, they should have promoted 50 / 50 2 piece stringing, for the frame.
I am a _Port player since the release of the tech, I admit my it pains me to see the brand struggle.
 
graycrait

graycrait

Legend
Nothing dramatic here but I like Prince: out of 63 rackets on the walls approx 31 are Princes, all with playable strings strung with my Prince Neos 1000. However, my Michael Chang TI Longbodies are my newest or maybe it is my POG TOUR 107s or maybe it is the crazy yellow black racket with o-ports. Sigh.... No Phantoms
 
Ronaldo

Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
thelimfactor said:
Hi everyone. Firstly I have used and liked Prince rackets for years (Prince More Control 850 for nearly 20 years and only recently switched to Babolat). I recall the number of pros using Prince in the 80's and 90's being quite/very high, but now its predominantly Wilson, Babs, Yonex and Head, with a spattering of Technifibre and hardly any Prince. Is it just me or are there other tennis lovers who also feel a bit nostalgic and a tiny bit sad to see a previously popular, powerful brand now seemingly much less popular and only a very minor player in tennis?
Click to expand...
More Control is a stiff racquet, still have a pr.
 
Ronaldo

Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
max said:
The tennis market has always been difficult and Wilson always has maintained dominance. Head, during the Titanium Craze, did very well and was very competitive at #2. Prince in the late 70s-early 80s was very competitive in my area.

The big difficulty is that racquets don't quickly wear out and people really don't need to buy a racquet every year. By pushing constant change, this reinforces the market position of the big dog, since the little dogs have a tough time following.

If I were to put together a racquet company today, I think I'd buy the rights to older classics and just consistently crank these out. If I couldn't buy the rights, I'd make near copies with equal playability. I would just be cranking out the Pro Kennex 5G indefinitely, and the C-10, Wilson 6.0/85. Or pretty close copies.
Click to expand...

Head to Ann Arbor and find Cayman racquets. Btw, quite a few players switched to the Prince Exo3 Tour series after TE locally.
 
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dak95_00

dak95_00

Hall of Fame
I wonder how long Babolat maintains their share of the market when Nadal retires. Their business model is similar to Head in the way they really only have a few models.

The Aero Pro or Pure Aero is really just the same racquet with each new edition and only new cosmetics. The same is roughly true of the Pure Drive line.

Head is similar with their Radical, Speed, and Prestige lines. They maintain similar cosmetics but offer a variety of racquets of varying ability and weight/size for all styles of players while maintaining the name and paint to give the amateur the idea they’re playing with a professional racquet.

What if Prince would’ve done the same? What if the POG had gotten more vibrant and modern paint through the years rather than just the plain black with a splash of green? Would the racquet still be selling?
 
ccmtennis

ccmtennis

Semi-Pro
McGradey said:
Aside from the business issues the brand has experienced, the brand perception needs some work I think. To me, and I'm sure to younger generations even more so, Prince is very much an old school brand with associations to the 80s/90s, their parents, and older tennis players.
They haven't had a marketable player endorsing them for ages. Isner, Ferrer, Davydenko etc aren't going to sell racquets. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. Princes to the kings.

The new racquets look awesome, so would be great to see them on the walls in the local shops again.
Click to expand...

Funny I remember Davydenko in his hey day winning the final masters tournament that year and the in press conference a reporter asked him why his frame has no “P” sign painted on it and he said that they have no money to pay him after Sharapova lol
 
BlueB

BlueB

Legend
Love Prince, btw. Nowadays I only play with POG OS, PSG 100, O3 White... and Head Ti Radical Team.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
 
ccmtennis

ccmtennis

Semi-Pro
dak95_00 said:
I wonder how long Babolat maintains their share of the market when Nadal retires. Their business model is similar to Head in the way they really only have a few models.

The Aero Pro or Pure Aero is really just the same racquet with each new edition and only new cosmetics. The same is roughly true of the Pure Drive line.

Head is similar with their Radical, Speed, and Prestige lines. They maintain similar cosmetics but offer a variety of racquets of varying ability and weight/size for all styles of players while maintaining the name and paint to give the amateur the idea they’re playing with a professional racquet.

What if Prince would’ve done the same? What if the POG had gotten more vibrant and modern paint through the years rather than just the plain black with a splash of green? Would the racquet still be selling?
Click to expand...

I wouldn’t worry bout them after Nadal. They got a ton of juniors and top players that they sponsor, look at the NCAA it’s mostly Bab and Wilson only.

btw another possible sad sign of the decline of the brand that I use personally is even the “Price tennis official” here on the boards seemed to have already abandoned the boards
 
ccmtennis

ccmtennis

Semi-Pro
BlueB said:
O-ports enhance topspin.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Totally agreed but that concept is lost of most ppl here . The ports really enhance the ability of the racket head to fly through the contact zone but has less mass than their non ported frames . Solution is simple and just add lead but most rec ppl don’t want to tinker with it . I have my Beast 98 03 leader to about a 333 swing weight and the total static weight is 11.5 oz and it is rock stable . No way however I can consistently handle that SW without the ports
 
Rosstour

Rosstour

G.O.A.T.
When I was growing up, I viewed Prince as the Reebok to Wilson’s Nike. Plus the fact that Sampras used Wilson.

Their graphics were lame, racquets were oversized, I just never warmed up to them.

And now I play with one. And just added two more to my stable. Times change. I haven’t hit with a ton of newer racquets but I did demo a Blade and whatever Rafa uses, and I don’t feel they were much better.
 
D

Deleted member 768841

Guest
dak95_00 said:
I wonder how long Babolat maintains their share of the market when Nadal retires. Their business model is similar to Head in the way they really only have a few models.

The Aero Pro or Pure Aero is really just the same racquet with each new edition and only new cosmetics. The same is roughly true of the Pure Drive line.

Head is similar with their Radical, Speed, and Prestige lines. They maintain similar cosmetics but offer a variety of racquets of varying ability and weight/size for all styles of players while maintaining the name and paint to give the amateur the idea they’re playing with a professional racquet.

What if Prince would’ve done the same? What if the POG had gotten more vibrant and modern paint through the years rather than just the plain black with a splash of green? Would the racquet still be selling?
Click to expand...
I’d imagine Babolat would stick with the three racquets/ keep pure drive and aero and maybe switch up the name/design of the control racquet I.E. pure control, pure strike, pure storm. But when Nadal leaves my bet is they will use Felix as the main marketer for the PA. And then Muguruza as the head for PD, and Thiem as the guy for the strike.
 
BlueB

BlueB

Legend
ccmtennis said:
Totally agreed but that concept is lost of most ppl here . The ports really enhance the ability of the racket head to fly through the contact zone but has less mass than their non ported frames . Solution is simple and just add lead but most rec ppl don’t want to tinker with it . I have my Beast 98 03 leader to about a 333 swing weight and the total static weight is 11.5 oz and it is rock stable . No way however I can consistently handle that SW without the ports
Click to expand...
Ports actually do something else: They effectively increase the string length and movement, thus increase the snapback (spin). A byproduct is also larger sweet spot and more comfy stringbed.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
 
TennisHound

TennisHound

Legend
Well Prince has bounced back pretty far. They may not have enough money right now to pay pros, but they are producing excellent racquets that are talked about on these boards constantly.
IMO they are in the limelight more than Snauwaert. Fischer, Dunlop, Slazenger, Pro Kennex, Gamma, Volkl, Pacific, Angell, Diadem, Solinco, and I’m sure there’s others. Some of these manufacturers have been more stable, but for current models available and performing well, Prince is not at the bottom. Yes they are solely linked to Tennis Warehouse, but they are stable. Let’s not get all teary eyed yet.
 
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D

Deleted member 768841

Guest
TennisHound said:
Well Prince has bounced back pretty far. They may not have enough money right now to pay pros, but they are producing excellent racquets that are talked about on these boards constantly.
IMO they are in the limelight more than Snauwaert. Fischer, Dunlop, Slazenger, Pro Kennex, Gamma, Volkl, Pacific, Angell, Diadem, Solinco, and I’m sure there’s others. Some of these manufacturers have been more stable, but for current models available and performing well, Prince us not at the bottom. Yes they are solely linked to Tennis Warehouse, but they are stable. Let’s not get all teary eyed yet.
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Prince is definitely a hit among the older players in my club, mainly because they were raised on wood and heavy frames. Prince are very classic. I got one sitting in my garage, haven’t hit in probably 2 decades but the leather grip has aged like a fine wine. However they definitely aren’t a hit among younger people. They are just pretty difficult for somebody with less strength or isn’t accustomed to more stable frames. Plus they don’t appeal aesthetically to younger people. It’s like would a kid rather use an Apple Watch (Babolat, Wilson, Head: modern style and flair) or a pocket watch/ Rolex (a classy, more mature and subdued style)
 
C

Crazy Finn

Hall of Fame
dak95_00 said:
I wonder how long Babolat maintains their share of the market when Nadal retires. Their business model is similar to Head in the way they really only have a few models.

The Aero Pro or Pure Aero is really just the same racquet with each new edition and only new cosmetics. The same is roughly true of the Pure Drive line.

Head is similar with their Radical, Speed, and Prestige lines. They maintain similar cosmetics but offer a variety of racquets of varying ability and weight/size for all styles of players while maintaining the name and paint to give the amateur the idea they’re playing with a professional racquet.

What if Prince would’ve done the same? What if the POG had gotten more vibrant and modern paint through the years rather than just the plain black with a splash of green? Would the racquet still be selling?
Click to expand...
Babolat will do fine. Why? They make good racquets that younger players like. When juniors are having a drill or a lesson, at least 60-70% of them have a Babolat, from what I see. The Clash might start eating into that a bit, maybe.

I'm sure it's great that they have Nadal, and he definitely helped with putting them on the map - along with Roddick. But, a good chunk of the WTA plays with Babolat, and lots of players besides Nadal on the ATP Tour.

Besides, does anyone serious about tennis actually buy a racquet because of who plays with it? I NEVER have.
 
dak95_00

dak95_00

Hall of Fame
Crazy Finn said:
Babolat will do fine. Why? They make good racquets that younger players like. When juniors are having a drill or a lesson, at least 60-70% of them have a Babolat, from what I see. The Clash might start eating into that a bit, maybe.

I'm sure it's great that they have Nadal, and he definitely helped with putting them on the map - along with Roddick. But, a good chunk of the WTA plays with Babolat, and lots of players besides Nadal on the ATP Tour.

Besides, does anyone serious about tennis actually buy a racquet because of who plays with it? I NEVER have.
Click to expand...
You’re the second person to say the same thing about younger people.

I was once a younger person using Prince racquets as well as others. If Babolat loses the top players and the cool factor, then only old people will be using them and the young people will move on to the next company.

Somehow Babolat puts out multiple frames of similar specs Drive/Aero and only changes the paint and continues to sell them. It’s been working. It doesn’t make much sense but it’s working.

How many Pure Aero frames do we need that are the same; French, USA, la decima, green, yellow, etc?
 
C

Crazy Finn

Hall of Fame
dak95_00 said:
I was once a younger person using Prince racquets as well as others. If Babolat loses the top players and the cool factor, then only old people will be using them and the young people will move on to the next company.
Click to expand...
You could say that about any racquet company. Also, maybe some kids play Babolats because of cool factor, I bet a bunch play because of how they play - power and spin. Is that going away? Not likely.

It's possible some other company could come up with something that might catch on with younger players and that will replace Babolat as contender for #1 at some point in the future. But, they'll still be around. Head, Yonex, Dunlop, and Volkl are all still around and making good sticks.

For gosh sakes, Prince is still around and I can't name a single racquet they made between the POG in my youth and the Black 100 that my buddy bought about 8 years ago.
dak95_00 said:
Somehow Babolat puts out multiple frames of similar specs Drive/Aero and only changes the paint and continues to sell them. It’s been working. It doesn’t make much sense but it’s working.

How many Pure Aero frames do we need that are the same; French, USA, la decima, green, yellow, etc?
Click to expand...
Well, if you're going to buy a Pure Drive or Pure Aero and you have a bit of a choice in paint jobs, what's wrong with that? It's a little more interesting than just being stuck with the standard scheme.

I've never bought a racquet because of the paint job, but I've at least had a choice of paint jobs a few times with Babolat.
 
D

Deleted member 768841

Guest
Crazy Finn said:
You could say that about any racquet company. Also, maybe some kids play Babolats because of cool factor, I bet a bunch play because of how they play - power and spin. Is that going away? Not likely.

It's possible some other company could come up with something that might catch on with younger players and that will replace Babolat as contender for #1 at some point in the future. But, they'll still be around. Head, Yonex, Dunlop, and Volkl are all still around and making good sticks.

For gosh sakes, Prince is still around and I can't name a single racquet they made between the POG and the Black 100 that my buddy bought.

Well, if you're going to buy a Pure Drive or Pure Aero and you have a bit of a choice in paint jobs, what's wrong with that? It's a little more interesting than just being stuck with the standard scheme.

I've never bought a racquet because of the paint job, but I've at least had a choice of paint jobs a few times with Babolat.
Click to expand...
Agree with the PJ part. I think it would be cool if the companies could afford multiple colors of the same spec racquet, like imagine the clash with orange, or blade with white and black, or black with purple, or a pure drive with black/different colors. However it would be a little out there because of the increased manufacturing cost.
 
McGradey

McGradey

Hall of Fame
Babolat know their formula and it sells a ton, they won't change it until it stops selling. They got a dominant position in the market early in the baseline tennis era and never looked back; now, nearly every racquet brand makes their own version of the Pure Drive/Aero. Those racquets are like the tennis equivalent of a Volkswagen Golf or BMW 3 Series, if you are in the car market, you have to make one.
 
dak95_00

dak95_00

Hall of Fame
Tennis sprew said:
Agree with the PJ part. I think it would be cool if the companies could afford multiple colors of the same spec racquet, like imagine the clash with orange, or blade with white and black, or black with purple, or a pure drive with black/different colors. However it would be a little out there because of the increased manufacturing cost.
Click to expand...
Wilson offers customized paint or they did recently. You pay a little more but you can get what you want.
 
D

Deleted member 768841

Guest
McGradey said:
Babolat know their formula and it sells a ton, they won't change it until it stops selling. They got a dominant position in the market early in the baseline tennis era and never looked back; now, nearly every racquet brand makes their own version of the Pure Drive/Aero. Those racquets are like the tennis equivalent of a Volkswagen Golf or BMW 3 Series, if you are in the car market, you have to make one.
Click to expand...
I hope Babolat at least lowers the average stiffness to around 64-69. Still good power but more comfort. Though maybe old school OS racquets like the POG were the beginning of the baseline rallies?
 
D

Deleted member 768841

Guest
dak95_00 said:
Wilson offers customized paint or they did recently. You pay a little more but you can get what you want.
Click to expand...
I wanted to grab a blade because they were doing 25% off customs, but decided to wait because they don’t sell VS touch on their website lol. My favorite they had for customs was the Laver Cup 2019 pro staff blue and Tsitsipas pj.
 
dak95_00

dak95_00

Hall of Fame
McGradey said:
Babolat know their formula and it sells a ton, they won't change it until it stops selling. They got a dominant position in the market early in the baseline tennis era and never looked back; now, nearly every racquet brand makes their own version of the Pure Drive/Aero. Those racquets are like the tennis equivalent of a Volkswagen Golf or BMW 3 Series, if you are in the car market, you have to make one.
Click to expand...
I think we’re all saying the same thing here.

Prince screwed up when they went away from their winning formula and started with the CTS crap and double bridge junk. They should’ve worked harder to have kept Agassi and made the POG pink or yellow or whatever color he wanted it to be.

The idea that anyone has made a racquet with more spin potential than the POG is laughable. The 93 was 14x18 and the 107 was 16x19. Someone better explain to me how a closed pattern or similar pattern frame in a smaller size is going to produce more spin.
 
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