Peak Djokovic vs Peak Federer...... splitting hairs?
- Thread starter MichaelNadal
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I think it's a close rivalry but the biggest difference between the two would be at AO. I think we have a big enough sample size to draw a clear conclusion; Djokovic is better there and he would beat Federer more times than not. We saw him play 26 year old Federer, 29 year old Federer, 34 year old Federer, and 38 year old Federer and in all 4 of those matches, Federer won 1/13 sets. Overall, Djokovic is 12-4 in sets when you inlcude the 2007 match. I don't put a lot of weight in these mono excuses, these post prime excuses, etc. because to me 08 AO was only a continuation of the 07 USO final except this time, Djokovic didn't choke. I think he beats Federer either way whether he was 100% or not, and Federer also played pretty well in 2011 and still lost in straight sets.
If you look at all the other Slams...RG they are 4-3 in sets; Wimbledon, they are 10-8 in sets; USO they are 14-10 in sets. All of these Slams they are much closer and more evenly matched and even Federer post 30 pushed Djokovic to tough 5 setters in these tournaments, which shows he would beat him in these tournaments, especially the USO and Wimbledon. Some could even make the argument Federer would have slight upperhand at USO in particular being how difficult it has been for Djokovic to beat him there. RG is close and depends on the day, although the slower conditons ultimately favor Djokovic so slight edge to him. Wimbledon, I would give the slight edge to Federer, but the difference is not as big in these tournaments as it is in Australia. That's just my opinion on this.
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Any topic about primes, peaks and shmeeps is about hair-splitting, god-like powers of re-writing history and predicting never-happened outcomes.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I actually do think Fed would be better at the USO peak for peak. And the matches themselves kind of attest to that.
And also Djoker's general struggles in New York.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I give Federer the slight edge.
Winning the title 3 times, which puts you in ATG category, 8 finals, and 11 straight SFs is not struggling. Lol. Not sure what some of you are expecting.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
For a guy with his HC pedigree, as in nearly the HC GOAT his USO record is poor. So it is kind of a struggle.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
His record is poor? Lol. Dude, what are you talking about? He has made 8 USO finals and 8 AO finals. No one else in the OE can say that or has as many finals. He's an ATG in NY. Case closed.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
The YEC is the only arguable one, otherwise you don't need to give more to Djokovic just to prove you're fair
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
He is an ATG in New York, but having a losing record in USO finals is kind of a struggle.
Of course, it is a relative struggle, but still a struggle.
When two players are at their best and they are as good as Fed/Djok/Rafa, it comes down to match ups and conditions essentially.
Fed wins most on the faster courts - cincy, shanghai, halle, queens, a fast day at the french etc.
Djok wins most on the slower courts - IW, Aus open nights, WTF, US.
I think head-to-head as an overall measure is not that useful if you haven't played an even number of matches across surfaces/venues.
Eg. Fed is 5-1 v rafa indoors - if he hadnt made so many clay finals, and Rafa made more indoor finals, maybe fed's h2h there is positive.
Overall I give a slight edge to Djok in modern conditions, he is so hard to pick apart. If courts were quicker, like when Fed was dominating in 04/05, i think Fed wins the majority.
Splitting hairs is about right.
Fed wins most on the faster courts - cincy, shanghai, halle, queens, a fast day at the french etc.
Djok wins most on the slower courts - IW, Aus open nights, WTF, US.
I think head-to-head as an overall measure is not that useful if you haven't played an even number of matches across surfaces/venues.
Eg. Fed is 5-1 v rafa indoors - if he hadnt made so many clay finals, and Rafa made more indoor finals, maybe fed's h2h there is positive.
Overall I give a slight edge to Djok in modern conditions, he is so hard to pick apart. If courts were quicker, like when Fed was dominating in 04/05, i think Fed wins the majority.
Splitting hairs is about right.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Actually the biggest difference between the two is the six year gap in their ages. They are not of the same generation, but that's conveniently overlooked. Everyone in Fed's generation has long since retired: Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, JFC (all #1 ranked players, not "mugs" as is claimed here), Gonzo, Henman, Nalby, Davydenko, etc.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I completely disagree with your point so let's move on..lol
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Fed leads in Wimbledon, USO, Rebound Ace AO, Cincy, Madrid/Hamburg, WTF, and maybe, maybe IW
Djoker leads in Plexi AO, MC, Rome, Miami, Paris, Canada
Toss-up: RG, maybe IW, and Shanghai (with Shanghai, it's because the court should suit Fed, but the tournament didn't become a Masters till after much of his peak; I mean, there's Madrid Indoors, but I don't think the two are as comparable as Madrid/Hamburg)
So Fed leads in most of the Slams and the WTF, and Djokovic leads in most of the Masters. BTW, Djokovic leads overall at the AO, but I felt like the two should probably be split by surface.
Djoker leads in Plexi AO, MC, Rome, Miami, Paris, Canada
Toss-up: RG, maybe IW, and Shanghai (with Shanghai, it's because the court should suit Fed, but the tournament didn't become a Masters till after much of his peak; I mean, there's Madrid Indoors, but I don't think the two are as comparable as Madrid/Hamburg)
So Fed leads in most of the Slams and the WTF, and Djokovic leads in most of the Masters. BTW, Djokovic leads overall at the AO, but I felt like the two should probably be split by surface.
Everyone knows Fed hit his peak in 2015.
And hard courts, grass haven't slowed down one bit.
D
Deleted member 771911
Guest
Peak Federer all the way. Not even close.
BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
Peak Djokovic: AO RG
Peak Fed: USO W
Peak Fed: USO W
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
2017Everyone knows Fed hit his peak in 2015.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
You heard the man. Not even close
2019.
metsman
G.O.A.T.
07 USO F a bottom 3 SF/F performance for Fraud at the USO over his entire prime and lollygagged and won in straights, convincingly raising his level at the end of sets 2 and 3 (set 1 was a bad choke, no question about it). 11 RG and USO top 5 if not top 3, if not even higher than that performances for Djoel at those majors. Straws are being grasped at trying to equate the two.
And anyways unless they actually played peak for peak, which they didn't, don't care as much about results but more about their pure levels of play and ability.
And anyways unless they actually played peak for peak, which they didn't, don't care as much about results but more about their pure levels of play and ability.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
eh, I think they definitely both peaked in the 2019 WTF RR match. Not really Djokovic's fault that Fed just has that much more sexi masterclass talent.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Ok, serious questions now, how would you rank Fed's USOs wins? Clearly, you seem more on the "2007 at the bottom" side, but would you put it below 2008? Of course, his SF-F (the most important rounds) form in 2008 was quite more convincing than 2007, but the 2007 QF might be better than anything Fed did in 2008, and Fed had that five-setter with Andreev as well.
On the other end of the scale, you have 2004, 2005, and 2006 which were all pretty nice displays. 2006 seems like the safest pick but it was against the softest competition of the three imo. Then 2004 had the amazing final but also included a five-setter for the QF (yet wind played a factor). Then there's 2005 where Fed's forehand has rarely been better. His backhand, however, wasn't nearly as convincing.
I know I've seen you rate 2005 below the other two really good ones but how might your list of the five as a whole go?
abmk
Bionic Poster
Just watching highlights of this and it makes me wonder. Fed BARELY got by Novak in 2 tiebreaks and finally a break in the 3rd in 2007. We know what happened AO 2008. Djokovic also was beating Nadal in 2007 as well. I have 2 questions.
1. How good was Djokovic in 2007 compared to later on? I think his level is WAY too underrated. The man was already FANTASTIC in 07 and 08, granted he took a dip in 2010.
2. If they were both at their peaks who would win most of the matches? Obviously I like Fed more, but I have no horse in the race. Sway me please.
federer actually beat peak djokovic in RG 11 and had MPs vs him in USO 11. The USO 11 match was with federer not at his prime level and djokovic's best level there.
also federer beat djokovic fairly comfortably in Wim 12
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
I’d say Cincy instead.
abmk
Bionic Poster
I was only considering slams&YEC.
But if you consider Masters tournaments, then yeah.
abmk
Bionic Poster
peak to peak at the Masters:
IW: about even (I'd take fed by a small margin, but yeah about even isn't a bad way to look at it)
Miami: Djokovic
Monte Carlo: Federer IMO (by a small margin)
Rome: Djokovic
Hamburg/Madrid: Federer
Canada: Djokovic
Cincy: Federer
Madrid/Shanghai: Federer
Paris: Djokovic
Granted djoko has achieved more overall in Masters, but this is peak to peak.
IW: about even (I'd take fed by a small margin, but yeah about even isn't a bad way to look at it)
Miami: Djokovic
Monte Carlo: Federer IMO (by a small margin)
Rome: Djokovic
Hamburg/Madrid: Federer
Canada: Djokovic
Cincy: Federer
Madrid/Shanghai: Federer
Paris: Djokovic
Granted djoko has achieved more overall in Masters, but this is peak to peak.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Right now among SF/Fs from 2004-08, one thing that's clear is the top 4 belong to 2004 SF/F and 2006 SF/F - top being the Hewitt USO 2004 F, you can quibble about the order of the other 3 to be honest.
overall: 2006> 2004> 2005>2007>2008
SF+F: 2004 > 2006>2005>2008~2007 (maybe 2008 slightly better, but I think that might be due to the bias of expecting more from 2007 fed than 2008 fed)
metsman
G.O.A.T.
2007 Fed was a better player than 2008 but 2008 played better in the SF/F because he was more desperate and Fed in 2007 probably knew he could coast after getting past Roddick with the SF lineup being Djokovic (let's be real at the time Federer had zero fear of him), Davydenko, and Ferrer. Still, the 07 QF was better than the 08 SF overall, and Murray was so poor in the F I can't really put a ton of stock into Federer's play there, although it was certainly good. Also no Andreev incidents, Flopez was a better quality affair and not nearly as tight in the end. Still, I'll always remember that Andreev match fondly.
I go 2006~2004>2005>2007>2008. Stylistically and aesthetically 2005 is best once you ignore the BH shanking.
2004 was more dynamic, fearless and faced his toughest challenge, but 2006 was pure peak power baselining on both sides so I might slightly prefer that on a HC.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
2006 Fed is silly good everywhere
ForehandCross
G.O.A.T.
I am going to be extremely controversial here, but I think "Peak" Djokovic would be 50-50 or maybe even better with Federer on grass, by peak I mean 2015 F, other versions might get overwhelmed.
But at USO, I see Federer being definitively better, also at RG like WB for Djokovic,Federer will be slightly my favourite to pull through at his very best form but will lose if he plays lesser than that.
At AO Djokovic is definitively better.
So in the end overall through the seasons it will be 50-50.
But at USO, I see Federer being definitively better, also at RG like WB for Djokovic,Federer will be slightly my favourite to pull through at his very best form but will lose if he plays lesser than that.
At AO Djokovic is definitively better.
So in the end overall through the seasons it will be 50-50.
Considering you think he played his most aggressive match on grass in 2015 it isn't so controversial coming from you.
ForehandCross
G.O.A.T.
Err no.
It's just that Djokovic's returns will change the game. Federer will have to be on constant pressure on his serve.
And Djokovic was outstanding enough from the baseline to not get completely overwhelmed.
So Federer will have lesser advantage on serve and lesser scope to make up for that in rallies.
Federer's much greater forehand will make the difference. I'm not saying Novak couldn't make it close but to say he would be 50-50 with Federer on grass is blasphemy.
RS
Bionic Poster
Not just age 33 even when way younger.
RS
Bionic Poster
I am talking generally about peaks not just that match.....
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Peak Federer bagels 2013 Nadal at MC? Not believable.
RS
Bionic Poster
Fed has been better in big matches vs Nadal true in terms of close matches actually.
abmk
Bionic Poster
fed returning on grass in 03-07 > djokovic returning on grass in 11-15.
abmk
Bionic Poster
this is about against the whole field. Both have like 4 finals at MC. But federer was beating him at 2008 MC before Djokovic umm retired due to sore threat. (match was actually good quality one) and even won in MC 14 (Djokovic had problems in 2nd set, but not in the 1st set)
Besides it ended 6-2 Djokovic in the 1st set at MC 13. If you are asking if a really well playing fed could take a set 6-2 vs 2013 MC Nadal 1st set, I'd say yes.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Ehhh, Federer was much less serve reliant in 2003-2006, so Djokovic's stronger return wouldn't matter as much. Certainly less so than it mattered in 2015.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Federer was 4-0 up against 2008 Nadal in the second set of their MC final.
