Think Racket Preparation.

thomas daniels

thomas daniels

Semi-Pro
Don't think ready position or take back, before a shot during play.... instead think racket prepartion first and always.

You know something?

This is one of the biggest mistakes that adults and junior players are making right now.

They don't understand that.

The faster the ball is coming at you, the less time you have to think ready position or take the racket back for that matter.

As a matter of fact.

When playing against powerful players, you should never be taking your racket back at all, you should be using their pace and making solid contact with the ball and then redirecting it and flowing with your swing.

In other words.

If the ball isn't coming at you slow.

You never are taking the racket back, are YOU?

Not on your volleys, not on your returns, and not on any of your shots!!

Okay so.

Try it for 1 month and notice the difference in how easy you start handling those powerful shots that are coming at YOU.

So YES....

Remember.

Think racket preparation with your contact move from now on and then make solid contact and just flow with your swing.

Happy Holidays from Kansai!!!
 
Last edited:
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
thomas daniels said:
Don't think ready position or take back, before a shot during play.... instead think racket prepartion first and always.

You know something?

This is one of the biggest mistakes that adults and junior players are making right now.

They don't understand that.

The faster the ball is coming at you, the less time you have to think ready position or take the racket back for that matter.

As a matter of fact.

When playing against powerful players, you should never be taking your racket back at all, you should using their pace and making solid contact with the ball and then redirecting it and flowing with your swing.

In other words.

If the ball isn't come slow.

You never are taking the racket back, or YOU?

Not of your volleys, not of your returns, not on any of your shots!!

Okay so.

Try it for 1 month and notice the difference in how easy you start handling those power shots coming at YOU.

So YES....

Remember.

Think racket preparation with your contact move from now on and then make solid contact and just flow with your swing.

Happy Holidays from Kansai!!!
Click to expand...
Good post!!

You take a lot of criticism on this board, but I find much of what you say to be broadly correct and useful (though not always understood).

This post for example agrees with Steve Tourdo in his "unlimited strokes":
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
thomas daniels said:
Don't think ready position or take back, before a shot during play.... instead think racket prepartion first and always.

You know something?

This is one of the biggest mistakes that adults and junior players are making right now.

They don't understand that.

The faster the ball is coming at you, the less time you have to think ready position or take the racket back for that matter.

As a matter of fact.

When playing against powerful players, you should never be taking your racket back at all, you should using their pace and making solid contact with the ball and then redirecting it and flowing with your swing.

In other words.

If the ball isn't come slow.

You never are taking the racket back, or YOU?

Not of your volleys, not of your returns, not on any of your shots!!

Okay so.

Try it for 1 month and notice the difference in how easy you start handling those power shots coming at YOU.

So YES....

Remember.

Think racket preparation with your contact move from now on and then make solid contact and just flow with your swing.

Happy Holidays from Kansai!!!
Click to expand...
The question I would ask you is:

"What defines racquet preparation"?

Steve Tourdo (whom I referenced above) has his definition that is specific and easy to understand. I was just curious what defines "racquet preparation" for you?
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
sureshs said:
It is generally understood as being part of the unit turn. But the real question is how far to take it back.
Click to expand...
You're understanding is based on your definition of "racquet preparation". But it's not a term who's definition is universally agreed upon in all it's details and parts.

As is often the case, a clear definition of terms is useful so we are all using the same terms in the same way. What I often find is that this isn't the case (and that the actual disagreement or confusion lies here).

It's also often useful to provide a definition based on "use".
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
r2473 said:
You're understanding is based on your definition of "racquet preparation". But it's not a term who's definition is universally agreed upon in all it's details and parts.

As is often the case, a clear definition of terms is useful so we are all using the same terms in the same way. What I often find is that this isn't the case (and that the actual disagreement or confusion lies here).

It's also often useful to provide a definition based on "use".
Click to expand...

Some terms are not worthy of precise definition. It is enough to convey the general idea.
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
r2473 said:
Steve Tourdo (whom I referenced above) has his definition that is specific and easy to understand. I was just curious what defines "racquet preparation" for you?
Click to expand...
Never heard of that. Could you explain it or send a video or something?
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Curious said:
Never heard of that. Could you explain it or send a video or something?
Click to expand...
sureshs said:
He is too lazy to even post what that guy said and yet he wants others to provide precise definitions.
Click to expand...
The video where Steve explains this is called "Unlimited Strokes". He spends an hour explaining and showing what he means. It's a "use" based definition.

If I were to give you the definition using words only, it wouldn't convey Steve's message. It would only allow sureshs to declare that the definition is wrong (which it would be).

It's one of the more curious things about trying to convey complex, dynamic actions that intend towards complex, dynamic goals using words only and to someone that has never experienced what you are talking about.

Anyway, let's wait for sureshs' requisite condescending reply and then we can be done with it.

If anyone is interested in Steve's idea, you'd really have to watch his video, spend some time with it, and put his ideas into action. Steve is most known for his book "unlimited doubles", which is quite good.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
r2473 said:
The video where Steve explains this is called "Unlimited Strokes". He spends an hour explaining and showing what he means. It's a "use" based definition.

If I were to give you the definition using words only, it wouldn't convey Steve's message. It would only allow sureshs to declare that the definition is wrong (which it would be).

It's one of the more curious things about trying to convey complex, dynamic actions that intend towards complex, dynamic goals using words only and to someone that has never experienced what you are talking about.

Anyway, let's wait for sureshs' requisite condescending reply and then we can be done with it.

If anyone is interested in Steve's idea, you'd really have to watch his video, spend some time with it, and put his ideas into action. Steve is most known for his book "unlimited doubles", which is quite good.
Click to expand...

Yet you are too lazy to post a link to the video. I have no problem with what he says, only with you not even willing to summarize it or include a link.

Oh I searched for it now and see that is not free.

I don't think I am going to pay money for it. Is there anything in there which is not covered in the thousands of tennis videos available for free?
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
sureshs said:
I guess all pros are doing it wrong, then.
Click to expand...
Why are you worried about pro's?

Worry about us, the surehses of city courts.


OP makes a good point. Too often we focus on forms and craps while neglecting the racket which is the tool that makes all the difference. Forms can be all over the place, MEP is a good example of whatever form that works very well.

You, me and other sureheses will always have questionable forms, but physics-wise the racket has to be correct and consistent to propel the ball over the net, right?
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
user92626 said:
Why are you worried about pro's?

Worry about us, the surehses of city courts.


OP makes a good point. Too often we focus on forms and craps while neglecting the racket which is the tool that makes all the difference. Forms can be all over the place, MEP is a good example of whatever form that works very well.

You, me and other sureheses will always have questionable forms, but physics-wise the racket has to be correct and consistent to propel the ball over the net, right?
Click to expand...

OP was about playing "powerful players" and "never taking the racket back." It was not about focusing on the racket or playing with ordinary players.

Of course why the OP is relevant to rec players who don't play against powerful players is something I don't understand.

If it is about the ATP takeback vs WTA takeback debate, or compact vs longer takeback debate, it has been discussed many many times before on this forum.
 
thomas daniels

thomas daniels

Semi-Pro
user92626 said:
Why are you worried about pro's?

Worry about us, the surehses of city courts.


OP makes a good point. Too often we focus on forms and craps while neglecting the racket which is the tool that makes all the difference. Forms can be all over the place, MEP is a good example of whatever form that works very well.

You, me and other sureheses will always have questionable forms, but physics-wise the racket has to be correct and consistent to propel the ball over the net, right?
Click to expand...
Well said!!
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
What about Vince’s advice? He says don’t muck around and take the racket straight back to the “ready for forward swing” position.


 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Curious said:
What about Vince’s advice? He says don’t muck around and take the racket straight back to the “ready for forward swing” position.


Click to expand...

Fantastic video debunking a lot of "modern" ideas about short swings and not extending through the ball..

First time I have heard someone quantify how far to take the racket back - it is till the 5 o'clock position (assuming 12 o'clock is pointing straight ahead before the unit turn).

Thanks for the post.
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
sureshs said:
Fantastic video debunking a lot of "modern" ideas about short swings and not extending through the ball..

First time I have heard someone quantify how far to take the racket back - it is till the 5 o'clock position (assuming 12 o'clock is pointing straight ahead before the unit turn).

Thanks for the post.
Click to expand...
The idea sounds great but you’ll soon see some opposition here lol. Oh what about the momentum from the loop, it ruins your timing and stuff and blah blah blah.
 
socallefty

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I thought racquet preparation means making sure you have fresh strings at the right tension for the weather, good over grip and dampener on at least a couple of racquets before a match. Otherwise, takeback pretty much describes what I do with the racquet while preparing for a shot.
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
socallefty said:
I thought racquet preparation means making sure you have fresh strings at the right tension for the weather, good over grip and dampener on at least a couple of racquets before a match. Otherwise, takeback pretty much describes what I do with the racquet while preparing for a shot.
Click to expand...
Isn’t racket take back what you do if you don’t like a racket after demoing it?o_O;)
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
sureshs said:
OP was about playing "powerful players" and "never taking the racket back." It was not about focusing on the racket or playing with ordinary players.

Of course why the OP is relevant to rec players who don't play against powerful players is something I don't understand.

If it is about the ATP takeback vs WTA takeback debate, or compact vs longer takeback debate, it has been discussed many many times before on this forum.
Click to expand...
If you choose to interpret Thomas' post in a way that obscures or dismisses his point, you can do that until the cow comes home. Anyone can do that.

I and others choose the positive way --- try it, if it helps, great. If it doesn't, move on.

Many of the ordinary, usual players that we see at our courts can be powerful hitters (though not very consistent and that's their style, and altogether they're at our level), right? I'm a regular, typical guy and I play with a handful of peers who are frequently late in dealing with my shots. They just take it that my level is just higher than theirs and not question anything else. (I do have a thread open where I gripe about that :))

We don't play singles where athleticism and speed really matters. We play doubles and triples where techniques matter alot. My observation of their flaws coincides with Thomas'. They simply don't know / don't have a good racket preparation. I can't tell them to move the racket like I do. They have their own ways (own forms) but their ways often aren't ready, aren't stable and consistent. That's all.
 
thomas daniels

thomas daniels

Semi-Pro
user92626 said:
If you choose to interpret Thomas' post in a way that obscures or dismisses his point, you can do that until the cow comes home. Anyone can do that.

I and others choose the positive way --- try it, if it helps, great. If it doesn't, move on.

Many of the ordinary, usual players that we see at our courts can be powerful hitters (though not very consistent and that's their style, and altogether they're at our level), right? I'm a regular, typical guy and I play with a handful of peers who are frequently late in dealing with my shots. They just take it that my level is just higher than theirs and not question anything else. (I do have a thread open where I gripe about that :))

We don't play singles where athleticism and speed really matters. We play doubles and triples where techniques matter alot. My observation of their flaws coincides with Thomas'. They simply don't know / don't have a good racket preparation. I can't tell them to move the racket like I do. They have their own ways (own forms) but their ways often aren't ready, aren't stable and consistent. That's all.
Click to expand...
It's good to see some people on this site that actually know and have a philosophy about the game....
 
M

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
sureshs said:
Fantastic video debunking a lot of "modern" ideas about short swings and not extending through the ball..

First time I have heard someone quantify how far to take the racket back - it is till the 5 o'clock position (assuming 12 o'clock is pointing straight ahead before the unit turn).

Thanks for the post.
Click to expand...
His advice about 140mph stuff is not relevant to most rec players. Even most pros cannot return those things.

Wilander’s advice to rec players directly contradicts this. His advice is to play a more old school, closed style as a rec player if you want to be consistent.
 
M

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
user92626 said:
If you choose to interpret Thomas' post in a way that obscures or dismisses his point, you can do that until the cow comes home. Anyone can do that.

I and others choose the positive way --- try it, if it helps, great. If it doesn't, move on.

Many of the ordinary, usual players that we see at our courts can be powerful hitters (though not very consistent and that's their style, and altogether they're at our level), right? I'm a regular, typical guy and I play with a handful of peers who are frequently late in dealing with my shots. They just take it that my level is just higher than theirs and not question anything else. (I do have a thread open where I gripe about that :))

We don't play singles where athleticism and speed really matters. We play doubles and triples where techniques matter alot. My observation of their flaws coincides with Thomas'. They simply don't know / don't have a good racket preparation. I can't tell them to move the racket like I do. They have their own ways (own forms) but their ways often aren't ready, aren't stable and consistent. That's all.
Click to expand...
You don’t post videos. That’s fine. Neither do I. We are just rec scrubs. However, a coach who comes here and says things but doesn’t post videos of what he is talking about or just directs you to some 3rd party video without a clear explanation is a different thing.

No one is debating that OP knows to play. However tennis coaching is also about explaining things clearly in a visual manner.
 
TagUrIt

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
I actually appreciate this post, we're all students of the game and there's always something new to learn. Most of the time when anyone goes against the status quo they're deemed to be not qualified or not taken seriously because their claim is outlandish and impossible. Having an open mind enables us all to grow as tennis players, if you don't like/agree with the information, simply do not incorporate it into your game.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
mcs1970 said:
You don’t post videos. That’s fine. Neither do I. We are just rec scrubs. However, a coach who comes here and says things but doesn’t post videos of what he is talking about or just directs you to some 3rd party video without a clear explanation is a different thing.

No one is debating that OP knows to play. However tennis coaching is also about explaining things clearly in a visual manner.
Click to expand...
There's nothing in your post that disagrees with my post and vice versa.

You may need clear explanation or whatever and that's you.

I don't need it, and apparently not just me but others like TagUrIt could also appreciate what the OP provides. I however do need beers but that's something I have to pay for so it needs to be such and such... LOL.
 
M

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
TagUrIt said:
I actually appreciate this post, we're all students of the game and there's always something new to learn. Most of the time when anyone goes against the status quo they're deemed to be not qualified or not taken seriously because their claim is outlandish and impossible. Having an open mind enables us all to grow as tennis players, if you don't like/agree with the information, simply do not incorporate it into your game.
Click to expand...

I am open to learn from someone even worse than me. So definitely I am willing to learn from an ex college player and current coach. But it is also on the coach to provide a clear visual description of what he is saying so that I can see if it is something I can incorporate in my game.
 
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M

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
user92626 said:
There's nothing in your post that disagrees with my post and vice versa.

You may need clear explanation or whatever and that's you.

I don't need it, and apparently not just me but others like TagUrIt could also appreciate what the OP provides. I however do need beers but that's something I have to pay for so it needs to be such and such... LOL.
Click to expand...
You appreciating something has nothing to do with being condescending towards others who are asking for clarification or suggesting they are dismissing the OP when that is not the case.

If you get it that’s fine I did not. If the OP is angling for payment to divulge that so lesser folks than you can understand it, then he needs to state it. If he truly wants to help he can take more time with folks who might not readily get it like you did. That’s the hallmark of a good coach.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
mcs1970 said:
You appreciating something has nothing to do with being condescending towards others who are asking for clarification or suggesting they are dismissing the OP when that is not the case.

If you get it that’s fine I did not. If the OP is angling for payment to divulge that so lesser folks than you can understand it, then he needs to state it. If he truly wants to help he can take more time with folks who might not readily get it like you did. That’s the hallmark of a good coach.
Click to expand...

Last time I check I was replying to surehs with a thru and thru explanation from my pov. You're not suresh. You barged in and claim to know what the case is with suresh. Are you suresh? Projecting much?

Read my post to suresh again. Where's me being condescending? You're being a bit pathetic here, barking up the wrong tree.
 
Slowtwitcher

Slowtwitcher

Legend
thomas daniels said:
When playing against powerful players, you should never be taking your racket back at all, you should be using their pace and making solid contact with the ball and then redirecting it and flowing with your swing.
Click to expand...

What swing? You just said you shouldn't take the racquet back at all...
 
M

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
user92626 said:
Last time I check I was replying to surehs with a thru and thru explanation from my pov. You're not suresh. You barged in and claim to know what the case is with suresh. Are you suresh? Projecting much?

Read my post to suresh again. Where's me being condescending? You're being a bit pathetic here, barking up the wrong tree.
Click to expand...
The question that Suresh asked was the same I asked in terms of video evidence. If you understand how a no take back and flow through shot works good for you. It makes very little sense to me unless he shows what he means.

As for barking up the wrong tree I barked at you only when your replied to me saying how others got it and it was my problem if I didn’t. I don’t expect you, a fellow scrub like me to explain what OP meant, but I would expect a coach who is making such a post to explain if someone asked for clarification.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Slowtwitcher said:
What swing? You just said you shouldn't take the racquet back at all...
Click to expand...
My own understanding is, and I put it this way for easier comprehension, it could be like returning a serve well. If you prepare well, you virtually don't (or can't) feel you need to take the racket back to return a very good, fast serve. I certainly can't feel my takeback in that situation but a swing happens anyway. For many players, maybe thinking about takeback in this situation is too late, too ineffective (against very fast incoming ball).
 
Slowtwitcher

Slowtwitcher

Legend
user92626 said:
My own understanding is, and I put it this way for easier comprehension, it could be like returning a serve well. If you prepare well, you virtually don't (or can't) feel you need to take the racket back to return a very good, fast serve. I certainly can't feel my takeback in that situation but a swing happens anyway. For many players, maybe thinking about takeback in this situation is too late, too ineffective (against very fast incoming ball).
Click to expand...

Watch the guy's videos and you'll get what's going on here.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
mcs1970 said:
His advice about 140mph stuff is not relevant to most rec players. Even most pros cannot return those things.

Wilander’s advice to rec players directly contradicts this. His advice is to play a more old school, closed style as a rec player if you want to be consistent.
Click to expand...

Spadea's advice IS old school. Racket well back and extend through the ball. The Roddick serve-return reference was not relevant because he was talking about regular forehands most of the time.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
user92626 said:
If you choose to interpret Thomas' post in a way that obscures or dismisses his point, you can do that until the cow comes home. Anyone can do that.
Click to expand...

All he said was that when faced with fast balls (which seldom happens in rec tennis), have a short takeback and block the ball and send it back with the pace of the sender. People have said this about service returns and volleys for a long long time.

In rec play, the challenge is usually the opposite. It is about how to put away slow balls and hit to where the opponent isn't.

The other problem with OP is that it claims racket takeback is not racket preparation. A short takeback is ALSO a preparation, sometimes reflexive and sometimes acquired through experience with faster serves.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
user92626 said:
My own understanding is, and I put it this way for easier comprehension, it could be like returning a serve well. If you prepare well, you virtually don't (or can't) feel you need to take the racket back to return a very good, fast serve. I certainly can't feel my takeback in that situation but a swing happens anyway. For many players, maybe thinking about takeback in this situation is too late, too ineffective (against very fast incoming ball).
Click to expand...

The reason you don't feel the takeback is because you're unconsciously competent; it happens automatically without thought. Great if you have that skill. But it doesn't help someone who doesn't have the skill. In order to get to that level, you have to go through many reps where you are explicitly thinking about it until it becomes cemented firmly.

I *think* this is what @mcs1970 was driving at.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Here is a slow-motion video of several Federer service returns - forehand and backhand. See how far back the racket has been taken.

 
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