Novak's Projection on Grass against Roger?

Where do you see Novak's grass career measuring up with Federer?

  • He'll be Grass GOAT!

    Votes: 5 13.9%

  • He'll be viewed about even with Federer

    Votes: 4 11.1%

  • Not good enough

    Votes: 20 55.6%

  • SAMPRAS.

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • Total voters
    36
BGod

BGod

G.O.A.T.
I am absolutely the type of person who values Roger losing in 5 sets in 3 Wimbledon finals along with his SF loss to Raonic.

But at the same time I also can't dismiss him going 0-3 in finals to Novak. Yes, he wasn't prime Roger of 04-06 but he had ample opportunities in 2014 and 2019 and even in 2015 his form going in was fantastic and he DID go 1/7 on BP chances. This is why I don't consider the 2008 match against Nadal to be as great as most others (1/13 on BP).

Moving forward as well, Novak has won Wimbledon at age 31 and 32 being an earlier bloomer winning his first Slam at 20 (Federer won his first shortly before 22 and was a month away from 33 in 2014 Wimbledon)

Title count is 8>5 obviously but Novak has only lost 1 final.

If we're at all using Roger's career as some type of reference for probability, then Novak should have a chance in 3, maybe 4 more finals.
 
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BGod

BGod

G.O.A.T.
Tennis_Freak99 said:
I think realistically he can reach to 7. Matching his idol would be great. If he reaches 8, then Grass GOAT for me
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The million dollar question then becomes if he's 7-1 in Wimbledon finals and 3-0 (assuming no more) against Federer, how is he not at least on par with Federer?
 
Lleytonstation

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
BGod said:
The million dollar question then becomes if he's 7-1 in Wimbledon finals and 3-0 (assuming no more) against Federer, how is he not at least on par with Federer?
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Because Fed has tons more grass titles and still has more WC titles....
 
UnforcedTerror

UnforcedTerror

Hall of Fame
According to TTW historians, he will need to to equal Laver to be seen as the grass GOAT. So no chance for him I'd say. But if he manages to win a couple more he could be seen as the grass BOAT.
 
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Forehanderer

Forehanderer

Professional
I went with not good enough not because he is not good enough but because of lack of other options. He is damn good but does not match the ability of Sampras and Federer on grass even if he makes it past them on grass slams. Sampras was a serve and volleyer par excellence and Roger had the magic wand to dispatch his opponents.
 
P

PETEhammer

Guest
Grass is a different surface now than it was in the 90s and before, everyone knows that. Pete is the GOAT of the faster, traditional, hallowed grass. For right now, Fed is clearly the Slow Grass/Green carpet GOAT, but Nole could very easily win 2-3 more. If he gets to 8, hell even 7, he's the Modern Grass GOAT imo
 
P

PETEhammer

Guest
Third Serve said:
Let him pass Borg first (which he can presumably do by winning another title), then we can talk about Sampras or Fed.
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Pete/Borg/Laver/Boris/Stefan are from a different era of grass that plays differently. Their status as grass players can't be compared to Fed's, anymore than you can compare say the Australian Open played on grass to Plexi. Different surfaces.

Fed right now is far and away the Slow Grass GOAT. Djokovic's 5 would normally not pose any threat to him whatsoever with 8 titles and 4 extra finals to boot, but the fact that Nole won 3 of those titles against Fed is what gets him into the conversation. I do think he just needs 2 more to have a claim with that 3-0 over the current Slow Grass GOAT (no troll intended)
 
NoleIsBoat

NoleIsBoat

Hall of Fame
PETEhammer said:
Pete/Borg/Laver/Boris/Stefan are from a different era of grass that plays differently. Their status as grass players can't be compared to Fed's, anymore than you can compare say the Australian Open played on grass to Plexi. Different surfaces.

Fed right now is far and away the Slow Grass GOAT. Djokovic's 5 would normally not pose any threat to him whatsoever with 8 titles and 4 extra finals to boot, but the fact that Nole won 3 of those titles against Fed is what gets him into the conversation. I do think he just needs 2 more to have a claim with that 3-0 over the current Slow Grass GOAT (no troll intended)
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This is as fair as you can get.

Djokovic wins the h2h/highest peak argument with the 3-0 in finals. Federer wins the consistency and longevity argument with the 8/12 finals.
 
D

Deleted member 744633

Guest
Otha, after watching a nearly 34 year old man straight set a 25 year old in the AO final, I hope no lavadekkabaal ever brings up the age argument in Federer's defense while discussing his performance against Djokovic in Wimbledon finals. OTHA!

@Sunny014 @PETEhammer
 
P

PETEhammer

Guest
NoleIsBoat said:
This is as fair as you can get.

Djokovic wins the h2h/highest peak argument with the 3-0 in finals. Federer wins the consistency and longevity argument with the 8/12 finals.
Click to expand...

The type of tennis that was played on fast grass was completely different too. Primarily offensive, high-risk tennis and extreme mental clutch because if you got a break point and didn't take it, there was no guarantee you'd see another one. Fast court tennis means a single point can determine a match. Lots of tension. This isn't to take away from modern grass, which still produces high quality stuff when you have great opponents in the final.

Honestly every one of the Fedovic finals was a truly great match, albeit in different ways. I felt like neither was playing near their best in 2014, but were just toughing it out and Nole got over the edge because of his superior clutch and work with Boris. 2015 Fed was smokin' that tournament and crushed poor Murray in the semis, only to be manhandled by BOATing Nole in the final in a way that I think surprised everyone, myself included. He had to put up the fight of his life just to get a set. And then 2019 was honestly a great match imo. Fed was playing as close to high risk tennis as he gets, executing beautifully, and Nole was doing his impeccable "defense to offense" retrieving and we got some spectacular, historic stuff.
 
NoleIsBoat

NoleIsBoat

Hall of Fame
PETEhammer said:
The type of tennis that was played on fast grass was completely different too. Primarily offensive, high-risk tennis and extreme mental clutch because if you got a break point and didn't take it, there was no guarantee you'd see another one. Fast court tennis means a single point can determine a match. Lots of tension. This isn't to take away from modern grass, which still produces high quality stuff when you have great opponents in the final.

Honestly every one of the Fedovic finals was a truly great match, albeit in different ways. I felt like neither was playing near their best in 2014, but were just toughing it out and Nole got over the edge because of his superior clutch and work with Boris. 2015 Fed was smokin' that tournament and crushed poor Murray in the semis, only to be manhandled by BOATing Nole in the final in a way that I think surprised everyone, myself included. He had to put up the fight of his life just to get a set. And then 2019 was honestly a great match imo. Fed was playing as close to high risk tennis as he gets, executing beautifully, and Nole was doing his impeccable "defense to offense" retrieving and we got some spectacular, historic stuff.
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I still can’t believe how Federer lost that match in 2019. He seemed to dominate everything except the tiebreakers, where he got tight and Djokovic didn’t miss o_O

Crazy to think Djokovic could be in the conversation if he can grab a couple more slow grass W titles. Who can beat him? Maybe Fed if he comes back playing well. Nadal? Doubt it.
 
P

PETEhammer

Guest
NoleIsBoat said:
I still can’t believe how Federer lost that match in 2019. He seemed to dominate everything except the tiebreakers, where he got tight and Djokovic didn’t miss o_O

Crazy to think Djokovic could be in the conversation if he can grab a couple more slow grass W titles. Who can beat him? Maybe Fed if he comes back playing well. Nadal? Doubt it.
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When you lose to a player consistently on the big stage, you come to expect that as the default outcome. I read a post from someone else here that summed it up beautifully by comparing it to high school and even college players who go up against someone significantly better than themselves and find themselves in a winning position. Its very common to see them double fault on match point, or blow a lead 5-1 up because somewhere, they "know" (but really just believe) they shouldn't be up and just self-sabotage/check out. Its a very rare person who can come along and shift that dynamic like Nole did, but unlike Fed, Nole reached out and got a lot of help from people who could help him see himself differently which I think was key to him turning around his matchups with Fed and Nadal.

Anyways, long story short, I think Fed is gonna lose to Nole on the big stage for the foreseeable future unless he gets some serious help from coaches who help with the mental aspect of the game. Love Ivan and Stefan, but they were more helpful for retooling his game than his mind which imo is what he needs at this point.
 
D

Deleted member 744633

Guest
After the events of the last few years, I'm firmly convinced that Djokovic is a better slow grass player than Federer.

Yes @Sunny014, you told me never to bring up 3-0 again because Federer was older and I obliged. But no more! Not after I saw what Djokovic did against an opponent 9 years younger in the AO final!
 
-NN-

-NN-

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic has a claim at 7 titles because he'll have beaten Federer in at least 3 of the finals, a direct competitor for Wimbledon GOAT in the event that Djokovic can reach 7.

Fed does have a lot more additional grass titles and has won in more grass conditions. But at least for Wimbledon GOAT Djokovic would have a claim at 7.
 
Eren

Eren

Professional
PETEhammer said:
Grass is a different surface now than it was in the 90s and before, everyone knows that. Pete is the GOAT of the faster, traditional, hallowed grass. For right now, Fed is clearly the Slow Grass/Green carpet GOAT, but Nole could very easily win 2-3 more. If he gets to 8, hell even 7, he's the Modern Grass GOAT imo
Click to expand...

I wish it was a carpet lol. Nowadays, I just see sand and a little grass.
 
BGod

BGod

G.O.A.T.
gjm127 said:
Crazy how 1 point would have put this debate to bed.
Click to expand...

Yes and yes. It is crazy indeed ain't it? I mean, talk about a HUUUUGE turnaround, maybe the biggest in sports history. You go from 3-0 and 5-8 to 2-1 and 4-9. Think Leonard Marshall hitting Montana.
 
Rosstour

Rosstour

G.O.A.T.
People call Sampras the GrassGoAT. And chunp Fed for losing four Finals.

But all the Fs Fed lost to Djok were at ages past when PETE retired. Hard to ding him for that.
 
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