Who is the better grass court player, Roddick or Djokovic?

[Unseeded Player]

 

[duaneeo]

People make snide comments, but never directly respond to the issues raised with Nole at WB.

Peak/prime Djokovic met Rafa once. Not Djokovic's fault, but the player who should've been his main rival wasn't.
Peak/prime Djokovic met Murray once...and lost. Again, not Nole's fault they only met once, but another player who should've been one of his main rivals wasn't.
Peak/prime Djokovic never met Wawrinka. It's a fact that Nole had developed a mental block against Stan at the slams, and he successfully avoided his nemesis at Wimbledon.

So, his competition was greatly depleted at WB during his peak/prime. He faced his top 3 contemporaries twice...leaving past-prime Federer (who he faced three times) as his only true rival. Nothing is untrue about anything said.

 

[Razer]

Anyone other than Murray ever straight setted Federer in a final at Wimbledon?

Olympics is not wimbledon, Murray never straight setted Roger at wimbledon, infact Murray got straight setted there in the SF

 

[Unseeded Player]

Who were Fed biggest rivals on WB in his prime? Philippoussis, Roddick and not prime Nadal?
Wawrinka is the only player who defeated both Novak and Nadal at the same slam, Fed never done that.

 

[Razer]

People make snide comments, but never directly respond to the issues raised with Nole at WB.

Peak/prime Djokovic met Rafa once. Not Djokovic's fault, but the player who should've been his main rival wasn't.
Peak/prime Djokovic met Murray once...and lost. Again, not Nole's fault they only met once, but another player who should've been one of his main rivals wasn't.
Peak/prime Djokovic never met Wawrinka. It's a fact that Nole had developed a mental block against Stan at the slams, and he successfully avoided his nemesis at Wimbledon.

So, his competition was greatly depleted at WB during his peak/prime. He faced his top 3 contemporaries twice...leaving past-prime Federer (who he faced three times) as his only true rival. Nothing is untrue about anything said.

Federer would be a 5-6 time wimbledon champion in the 2010s decade if not for Nole, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2017 and 2019. Federer also would have won 2018 if he had clutched that match vs Kev Anderson, then would have beaten Isner and would also have beaten Novak since Novak was prob too tired. So we are looking at a 6 wimbledon wins from Roger in 2010s, thats how consistent he was, calling him past prime is tad insulting to him. He was past his peak years but not a past his prime force on grass. The man won wimbledon without dropping a set in 2017.

 

[Mainad]

Olympics is not wimbledon, Murray never straight setted Roger at wimbledon, infact Murray got straight setted there in the SF

It took place at Wimbledon on Centre Court in a Bo5 match and Murray straight setted him. No-one else has ever been able to do that to Federer on his favourite and most successful court.

 

[Razer]

It took place at Wimbledon on Centre Court in a Bo5 match and Murray straight setted him. No-one else has ever been able to do that to Federer on his favourite and most successful court.

Court might be same but the occasion is not same.
During wimbledon one is ready for the 2 weeks play, here Roger was exhausted, he himself said it. No comparison of the 2, had this been at wimbledon championships then Roger would never lose to Murray, let alone be straight setted. Slams are different from these random olympics matches where you suddenly play a 5 setter and lose, in Slams a guy plays matches in 1st week, then comes to second week and is ready for the final. In such a scenario no chance roger will lose if he has reached the last weekend to face murray.

 

[Mainad]

Court might be same but the occasion is not same.
During wimbledon one is ready for the 2 weeks play, here Roger was exhausted, he himself said it. No comparison of the 2, had this been at wimbledon championships then Roger would never lose to Murray, let alone be straight setted. Slams are different from these random olympics matches where you suddenly play a 5 setter and lose, in Slams a guy plays matches in 1st week, then comes to second week and is ready for the final. In such a scenario no chance roger will lose if he has reached the last weekend to face murray.

The occasion was the Olympic final, a title Federer would dearly like to have added to his collection which is why he always played the Olympics and Wimbledon Centre Court was the ideal setting for him to accomplish this given he had just beaten Murray there a few weeks earlier. Tired or not (and failing to put Del Potro away quickly in the semis was down to him) he would not ordinarily allow himself to be straight setted by anybody at an occasion like that. Murray remains the only person ever to do it.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

You said it all right there and at the very least he has a chance to tie him at Wimbledon. Some of these arguments since this past Wimbledon are just downright embarrassing and ridiculous, but at the same time transparent as you pointed out.

Embarrassing is the key--especially for the slow-witted one who enters every thread, making patently illogical, history-challenged claims, all to protect Federer's records (apparently unaware that 2022 witnessed many of his records passed with ease). Djokovic is a legend at Wimbledon / grass courts, and there's no reason to believe he will not leave Federer behind with the title lead.

 

[Herald]

People make snide comments, but never directly respond to the issues raised with Nole at WB.

Peak/prime Djokovic met Rafa once. Not Djokovic's fault, but the player who should've been his main rival wasn't.
Peak/prime Djokovic met Murray once...and lost. Again, not Nole's fault they only met once, but another player who should've been one of his main rivals wasn't.
Peak/prime Djokovic never met Wawrinka. It's a fact that Nole had developed a mental block against Stan at the slams, and he successfully avoided his nemesis at Wimbledon.

So, his competition was greatly depleted at WB during his peak/prime. He faced his top 3 contemporaries twice...leaving past-prime Federer (who he faced three times) as his only true rival. Nothing is untrue about anything said.

This is the 3rd time I've posed the question to you: Is Roddick a better grass court player than Novak?

 

[RS]

Anyone other than Murray ever straight setted Federer in a final at Wimbledon?

Peak Nadal vs Peak Murray 10 matches at Wim who wins?

 

[duaneeo]

Federer would be a 5-6 time wimbledon champion in the 2010s decade if not for Nole, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2017 and 2019.

And if Nole had been absent, what would Djokovic fans be saying about the level of competition Federer faced in winning those titles?

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

This is the 3rd time I've posed the question to you: Is Roddick a better grass court player than Novak?

Do not expect a straight answer to your question, as it would instantly flatten the self-deceiving BS played by sudden, convenient Roddick advocates.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

People make snide comments, but never directly respond to the issues raised with Nole at WB.

Peak/prime Djokovic met Rafa once. Not Djokovic's fault, but the player who should've been his main rival wasn't.
Peak/prime Djokovic met Murray once...and lost. Again, not Nole's fault they only met once, but another player who should've been one of his main rivals wasn't.
Peak/prime Djokovic never met Wawrinka. It's a fact that Nole had developed a mental block against Stan at the slams, and he successfully avoided his nemesis at Wimbledon.

So, his competition was greatly depleted at WB during his peak/prime. He faced his top 3 contemporaries twice...leaving past-prime Federer (who he faced three times) as his only true rival. Nothing is untrue about anything said.

The seven times champion avoided the guy who never ever reached a semi. Brilliant satire.

 

[No_Kwan_Do]

The seven times champion avoided the guy who never ever reached a semi. Brilliant satire.

Stan was pretty dire at Wimbledon. 2 QFs in 16 years isn't a good return. He's 0-3 against Murray and 0-1 against Federer on the surface.

He may have been Novak's nemesis at the other slams, but his chances of beating him on grass are slim to none.

 

[duaneeo]

The seven times champion avoided the guy who never ever reached a semi. Brilliant satire.

Wawrinka had made one QF at the AO, yet beat Nole in route to the title in 2014.
Stan also had an atrocious record at Roland Garros (had suffered a first round exit (with a bagel) in 2014), yet beat Nole in the final in 2015. Nole couldn't even take it to five sets for heavens sakes.
And, Stan beat Nole at the USO in 2016 and 2019.

Yes, the 7-time WB champion avoided the player who had beaten him at every other slam (regardless of his poor slam history).

 

[No_Kwan_Do]

and he successfully avoided his nemesis at Wimbledon.

It's pretty difficult to avoid someone when that person made only 2 x 4R's and 2 x QFs in 16 years. Novak was doing his bit, Stan just couldn't live up to his seeding, especially during his prime years. He was pretty dire at Wimbledon. 2 QFs in 16 years isn't a good return and he's 0-3 against Murray and 0-1 against Federer on the surface.

He may have been Novak's nemesis at the other slams, but his chances of beating him on grass are slim to none.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Wawrinka had made one QF at the AO, yet beat Nole in route to the title in 2014.
Stan also had an atrocious record at Roland Garros (had suffered a first round exit (with a bagel) in 2014), yet beat Nole in the final in 2015. Nole couldn't even take it to five sets for heavens sakes.
And, Stan beat Nole at the USO in 2016 and 2019.

Yes, the 7-time WB champion avoided the player who had beaten him at every other slam (regardless of his poor slam history).

Yea sure. Even if you are right that Wawrinka would/could have beaten Nole despite his poor record just because of match-up issues (to be clear here I really doubt you are right on that one), he would not have intentionally avoided him. He always waited in the later rounds, it was Stan who could not get far enough to meet him.

 

[duaneeo]

Even if you are right that Wawrinka would/could have beaten Nole despite his poor record just because of match-up issues (to be clear here I really doubt you are right on that one), he would not have intentionally avoided him. He always waited in the later rounds, it was Stan who could not get far enough to meet him.

I've already said it not Nole's fault he rarely/never met his top contemporaries at WB. I've simply pointed out that he rarely/never met his top contemporaries at WB.

 

[NoleFam]

2009 Federer would still find a way of beating 2004 Roddick for me as strange as that may sound.

Maybe but his 2004 version would have the best chance.

 

[NoleFam]

Nole will forever be known as a 'great' grass player because of those 7 WB titles won against weak contemporaries, 90s-born mugs, and his main WB rival Old-erer, but I suspect even you Nole fans know how not-great he truly is on grass, and that there are many who are better.

He will forever be known as a legend of Wimbledon, not just a great grass player and no one cares about the rest. You would suspect incorrectly and name the many who are better. He only has the 2nd highest win percentage on grass in the Open Era. I know you don't truly believe any of this nonsense but if this what it takes for you to cope, have at it.

 

[NoleFam]

Embarrassing is the key--especially for the slow-witted one who enters every thread, making patently illogical, history-challenged claims, all to protect Federer's records (apparently unaware that 2022 witnessed many of his records passed with ease). Djokovic is a legend at Wimbledon / grass courts, and there's no reason to believe he will not leave Federer behind with the title lead.

Agreed and he has a chance to reach 8 for sure, hence the meltdowns. They should be happy 2020 was canceled which may save the record when it's all said and done.

 

[Kralingen]

Really?

People reasonably argue in a matchup a peak Murray beats a peak Djokovic though.

Yeah maybe not overall lol. But you could easily say he gets at least one from 14/15/18 Djokovic without the injury

sadly he was never the same post 2013. Federer mugged him off badly in 2015.

 

[duaneeo]

He may have been Novak's nemesis at the other slams, but his chances of beating him on grass are slim to none.

Based on his records, Stan shouldn't beat Nole at the AO (but did), shouldn't beat Nole at RG (but did), and shouldn't beat Nole at the USO (but did). But he wouldn't beat Nole at WB because of his record?

 

[NoleFam]

Wawrinka had made one QF at the AO, yet beat Nole in route to the title in 2014.
Stan also had an atrocious record at Roland Garros (had suffered a first round exit (with a bagel) in 2014), yet beat Nole in the final in 2015. Nole couldn't even take it to five sets for heavens sakes.
And, Stan beat Nole at the USO in 2016 and 2019.

Yes, the 7-time WB champion avoided the player who had beaten him at every other slam (regardless of his poor slam history).

Wawrinka has a 56% win rate at Wimbledon (much worse than the other 3 Slams) with 6 first round losses through 2017 but yet Djokovic avoided him. No he avoided Djokovic and about every other top player there because he was losing before he could reach them.

 

[Herald]

Do not expect a straight answer to your question, as it would instantly flatten the self-deceiving BS played by sudden, convenient Roddick advocates.

If this is so open and shut, why not just simply answer yes/no?

 

[duaneeo]

Wawrinka has a 56% win rate at Wimbledon (much worse than the other 3 Slams) with 6 first round losses through 2017 but yet Djokovic avoided him.

"Luckily avoided" is more accurate. As said, Stan had only made one QF at the AO when he beat Nole in 2014, and had only made one QF at RG when he beat Nole in 2015. He made the WB QF in 2014, and was a match away from meeting Nole when he again made the QF in 2015. Yet luckily for Nole, slam nemesis Stan was taken out by Nole pigeon Gasquet.

 

[Razer]

And if Nole had been absent, what would Djokovic fans be saying about the level of competition Federer faced in winning those titles?

Best Man for Roger Federer to beat in those 6 Wimbledon Wins in absence of Novak.

2012 - Sir Andy Murray
2014 - Marin Cilic (the man who won USO title 2 months later)
2015 - Sir Andy Murray
2017 - Marin Cilic
2018 - Rafael Nadal (this would be man in the final, if there is a win here then this man have to be beaten, I suppose Roger could have)
2019 - Rafael Nadal

Sir Andy is as strong as Roger's prime rival Andy (Roddick) on Grass and Nadal is an ATG on Grass too. Even in the absence of Djokovic the Grass field is supreme in 2010s. Wimbledon only became weak in 2021 and 2022, not before. Even in 21-22 the guys in the finals are a decade younger and have serious age advantages over BIG 3, there are no free titles, you have to toil to win anyway.

So Nole is the reason why Roger Federer (past his peak years but still world class) is not a 6 time champ in 2010s in addition to his 6 titles in 2000s.

Roger would be on 12 wimbledon Slams if not for Novak's presence in the presence of multiple W winners like Murray and Nadal.

Based on his records, Stan shouldn't beat Nole at the AO (but did), shouldn't beat Nole at RG (but did), and shouldn't beat Nole at the USO (but did). But he wouldn't beat Nole at WB because of his record?

Stan is so horrible on grass that he would never reach the wimbledon SF/F to reach Nole, even if he did he would be comprehensively beaten by peak Nole.

 

[Razer]

The occasion was the Olympic final, a title Federer would dearly like to have added to his collection which is why he always played the Olympics and Wimbledon Centre Court was the ideal setting for him to accomplish this given he had just beaten Murray there a few weeks earlier. Tired or not (and failing to put Del Potro away quickly in the semis was down to him) he would not ordinarily allow himself to be straight setted by anybody at an occasion like that. Murray remains the only person ever to do it.

Yes Roger dearly wished to add this, wishing is not a bad thing, but realistically there should be a win there, sadly there wasn't, he had no chance even if he was playing Raonic that day.

- London Olympics was held just 2 weeks after Wimbledon 2012
- Roger was already tired, he would not even be in the final if the tournament was a best of 5 sets every 7 rounds like a Slam.
- On top of being tired, in the SF he was further drained by Del Potro in that energy sapping 4.5 hours semi final

This is why Murray could beat a carcass of Roger in straight sets, had this been a proper slam tournament with enough rest, enough testing in earlier rounds to reach second week, Roger in the final would destroyed Murray in 3-4 good sets. Thats why saying Murray beat Roger at Wimbledon is a very wrong statement even though venues are same, there is no way Murray can beat Roger Federer at an actual wimbledon. We saw what happened in 2015, didn't we? That is how things roll.

 

[NoleFam]

"Luckily avoided" is more accurate. As said, Stan had only made one QF at the AO when he beat Nole in 2014, and had only made one QF at RG when he beat Nole in 2015. He made the WB QF in 2014, and was a match away from meeting Nole when he again made the QF in 2015. Yet luckily for Nole, slam nemesis Stan was taken out by Nole pigeon Gasquet.

Djokovic didn't "avoid" anyone since he's the one in the later stages of the tournament more times than not, been to 8 finals and won it 7 times. Wawrinka has never even been to a SF. Wawrinka has a 70+% win percentage at all the other 3 Slams and has big wins in each tournament. Who has beaten at Wimbledon? Almost nobody, yet Djokovic is lucky he didn't face someone with a 56% win percentage at the tournament? LOL

 

[abmk]

Who were Fed biggest rivals on WB in his prime? Philippoussis, Roddick and not prime Nadal?
Wawrinka is the only player who defeated both Novak and Nadal at the same slam, Fed never done that.

Nadal was prime on grass in Wim 06,07 and 08. Those 3 and 10,11,18 are his 6 best years there aka prime level.
That you said Nadal not prime, forgot Hewitt and mentioned Scud shows either ignorance or propaganda agenda.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

He will forever be known as a legend of Wimbledon, not just a great grass player and no one cares about the rest. You would suspect incorrectly and name the many who are better. He only has the 2nd highest win percentage on grass in the Open Era. I know you don't truly believe any of this nonsense but if this what it takes for you to cope, have at it.

If this is so open and shut, why not just simply answer yes/no?

You are witnessing overdoses of Fed-copium administered minute-by-minute, which drives some to avoid direct questions by posting more nonsense, such as the absurd idea that Djokovic's 7 Wimbledon titles are somehow of lesser value. Of course, this is a preemptive move to protect Federer's fading tin-godhood in the event Djokovic passes Federer's Wimbledon record.

 

[Hitman]

I can only imagine how painful this is going to get as we approach Wimbledon 2023.

 

[Hitman]

You are witnessing overdoses of Fed-copium administered minute-by-minute, which drives some to avoid direct questions by posting more nonsense, such as the absurd idea that Djokovic's 7 Wimbledon titles are somehow of lesser value. Of course, this is a preemptive move to protect Federer's fading tin-godhood in the event Djokovic passes Federer's Wimbledon record.

Yes, of lesser value....I mean he only beat Federer in nearly half the titles he won there. And we know Federer is a mug.

 

[The_Order]

People make snide comments, but never directly respond to the issues raised with Nole at WB.

Peak/prime Djokovic met Rafa once. Not Djokovic's fault, but the player who should've been his main rival wasn't.
Peak/prime Djokovic met Murray once...and lost. Again, not Nole's fault they only met once, but another player who should've been one of his main rivals wasn't.
Peak/prime Djokovic never met Wawrinka. It's a fact that Nole had developed a mental block against Stan at the slams, and he successfully avoided his nemesis at Wimbledon.

So, his competition was greatly depleted at WB during his peak/prime. He faced his top 3 contemporaries twice...leaving past-prime Federer (who he faced three times) as his only true rival. Nothing is untrue about anything said.

Actually, you're wrong about the not Djokovic's fault parts...

Why isn't it Djok's fault that he didn't reach Nadal at WIM08 and WIM10?
Why isn't it Djok's fault that he didn't reach Murray at WIM12 and WIM16?

Sorry, but losing is his fault.

Also, not only did his competition deplete so bad that he won 2 WIM titles facing the following qf+ opponents: Fucsovics, Shapo, Berry, Sinner, Norrie and Clown...

But he also had the added benefits of the easier draws in 2018 and 2019 as well as the roof being closed in 2018 as well for good measure...

 

[The Fedfather]

Anti-Fed trolls who make the most bizarre and disrespectful comments about Federer coming in clutch to support some Djoko fans who are happy to nod along. But then of course the latter will act indignant at the less than pretty pushback from some Federer fans. Typical.

 

[RS]

Yeah maybe not overall lol. But you could easily say he gets at least one from 14/15/18 Djokovic without the injury

sadly he was never the same post 2013. Federer mugged him off badly in 2015.

Yeah I don't see 2015 but one of 2014/2018 is arguable.

Imagine him on the other side of the draw after Djokovic slugged it out with Nadal there is a chance. 2014 is tough because he would need to take out Djokovic and Fed B2B as well. He would need to finish Djokovic in less than 5 I think to have a shot in the final.

I don't know how his longevity would be for 19/21/22.

 

[No_Kwan_Do]

Yeah I don't see 2015 but one of 2014/2018 is arguable.

Imagine him on the other side of the draw after Djokovic slugged it out with Nadal there is a chance. 2014 is tough because he would need to take out Djokovic and Fed B2B as well. He would need to finish Djokovic in less than 5 I think to have a shot in the final.

I don't know how his longevity would be for 19/21/22.

I don't think Murray would have won it in 2014, it was arguably his worst slam year between 2010 and 2016.

That was the year where he was still recovering from his back surgery at the end of 2013, so I could feel the Dimitrov defeat coming that Wimbledon. He lost a lot of QFs that year and only won a couple of MM titles against Robredo towards the back end.

 

[RS]

I don't think Murray would have won it in 2014, it was arguably his worst slam year between 2010 and 2016.

That was the year where he was still recovering from his back surgery at the end of 2013, so I could feel the Dimitrov defeat coming that Wimbledon. He lost a lot of QFs that year and only won a couple of MM titles against Robredo towards the back end.

We were assuming he never had the back problem the year before . But yeah even if he didn't have it he would have had to defeat 3 really tough opponents in a row so I don't necessarily think he would have.

 

[NoleFam]

You are witnessing overdoses of Fed-copium administered minute-by-minute, which drives some to avoid direct questions by posting more nonsense, such as the absurd idea that Djokovic's 7 Wimbledon titles are somehow of lesser value. Of course, this is a preemptive move to protect Federer's fading tin-godhood in the event Djokovic passes Federer's Wimbledon record.

Indeed and you've pretty much nailed it.

 

[RS]

I can only imagine how painful this is going to get as we approach Wimbledon 2023.

Nadal needs to stop him or someone else. For my sake too.

 

[NoleFam]

On another note, I've been watching the 2009 Wimbledon final off and on for the last few weeks (I have never seen the entire match and I don't know why it's taking me so long to get through this one) and if Roddick had a better return of serve and more belief in himself, he would have beaten that Federer.

 

[Hitman]

Nadal needs to stop him or someone else. For my sake too.

Nadal could have stopped him this year, but he was no where to be found in the final.

 

[RS]

Nadal could have stopped him this year, but he was no where to be found in the final.

I was having a vent. Hopefully Nadal stops him next year though

 

[RS]

On another note, I've been watching the 2009 Wimbledon final off and on for the last few weeks (I have never seen the entire match and I don't know why it's taking me so long to get through this one) and if Roddick had a better return of serve and more belief in himself, he would have beaten that Federer.

Both players a bit better than Djokovic 2014 F?

 

[NoleFam]

I was having a vent. Hopefully Nadal stops him next year though

Well you have to make it to the match to have a chance to actually beat him.

 

[NoleFam]

Both players a bit better than Djokovic 2014 F?

Neither were in my opinion on a tennis level standpoint but 2014 Djokovic was mentally all over the place at that time. He should have beaten Federer in 4 sets if he hadn't choked.

 

[Hitman]

I was having a vent. Hopefully Nadal stops him next year though

Better if Djokovic just breaks the Wimbledon record, so we can all move from it and start focusing on other things.

 

[RS]

Well you have to make it to the match to have a chance to actually beat him.

You were too happy saying this

 

[RS]

Better if Djokovic just breaks the Wimbledon record, so we can all move from it and start focusing on other things.

7 is enough