In case you forgot what GOAT tennis looks like ...

N

Nuclear Warhead Sinner

Guest
I was impressed at first, but as I watched the video I began to understand their play patterns and it got boring.
Biased and perhaps unpopular opinion: Nadal vs Djokovic is much better than this.
Even more controversial opinion: Peak Djokodal would obliterate peak Sampras, especially Nadal.
 
MichaelNadal

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Peak Becker was crispy af :D

csm_becker_wimbledon_7939d6eb1c.jpg

images.ashx
 
G

Gizo

Hall of Fame
I do miss 90s tennis a lot on the men's side, with the depth and the variety in playing styles, match-ups and surface conditions. In the early to middle part of the decade especially, you could look at the ATP top 10 at a point in time and see players with numerous different playing styles in it.

And it's not just about who was competing in grand slam finals or semi-finals (I don't really care about the GOAT debate), far from it. The acid test from my perspective was that I found the matches during the earlier rounds of slams (when I was actually able to watch them) far more interesting and exciting in those days, and likewise the the regular ATP tour events below masters series / supers 9 level including those without any of the top ranked players present such as Estoril, Marseille, Den Bosch etc. Beyond the top 10, from my personal perspective there were many more 'interesting' / enjoyable players to follow on the tour in those days, including ones ranked outside the top 20, top 50, talented young prospects etc.

I knew far more 'diehard' tennis fans who cared about the ATP tour in general including the smaller events in those days (and also in the 00s). Nowadays most tennis fans I know only care about a small handful of big name players (and the repetitive GOAT debates) and are not interested in ATP tour events below masters series level (or in some cases below slam level).

I enjoyed this 1994 YEC final between Sampras and Becker, and final between them 2 years later in Hanover was absolutely 'huge', and felt just as big as a grand slam final.
 
N

Nuclear Warhead Sinner

Guest
BeatlesFan said:
Was this the first time you’ve ever seen anything of a Pete-Boris match? Just curious.
Click to expand...
I don't even remember the games I've watched from that era. I feel very little emotionally involved and their tennis looks weird to me. I grew up watching Nadal, Djokovic and Murray and my taste in tennis was molded by their play styles.
 
G

Gizo

Hall of Fame
I personally preferred indoor men's in 80s over that in the 90s - overall indoor tennis was even more important in the 80s as events like Philadelphia and Wembley were a big deal and during the latter part of that decade there was more of a shift to outdoor hard court events. In terms of Becker, his 'god mode' performances in the 1989 Davis Cup final were incredible. But I still I thoroughly enjoyed 90s indoor tennis as well. Variety is the spice of life, and we had plenty of that in men's tennis in the 90s.

On a side note, I've always thought that a fast / medium fast indoor court has been the best environment for women's tennis, from Evert vs. Goolagong in the 70s to Mauresmo vs. Clijsters in 2006, and purely from a tennis perspective very much regret the disintegration of the European indoor season, although financially it was clear why that happened.
 
Gary Duane

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
travlerajm said:
Click to expand...
I wish once and for all you would leave out the word "GOAT". It just cheapens every discussion.

The way to enjoy tennis is to accept the norms of each decade, then sit back and watch the tennis in the spirit of the times in which it was played. Then think, rightfully, that you are seeing the best of the best of that decade, generation or period. Most of all I have fond memories of both young Becker and Sampras, and watching all these young ATGs makes me ache for young players to push through and excite us again after a desert period of many years.
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
I can see why people would say it’s aged badly, but I don’t think I’d chalk it down to a talent issue at all. More of a technology issue. It’s why matches from the 2000’s look like they’ve aged better than 90’s matches (or 90’s matches compared to 80’s or 70’s matches). Give these guys modern equipment or give Nadal and Djokovic old-fashioned equipment (and, obviously, let them practice for long enough to grow comfortable) and you’ll have a much more accurate image. Big thing would be that each group of players would probably have to change their playing styles in accordance with the tech they (and the whole field) will use. Sampras might hug the baseline a little more given how risky a s&v strategy would be against poly, and Nadal might come up to the net more.

Still, you can see the kind of raw talent PETE and Becker had at the net even without the comforts of poly and larger racket heads. Some things just shine through regardless of any gaps in technology.

This is coming from someone who never saw a 90’s match live (I’ve gone back and watched some over the years) btw.
 
Sunny014

Sunny014

Legend
Third Serve said:
I can see why people would say it’s aged badly, but I don’t think I’d chalk it down to a talent issue at all. More of a technology issue. It’s why matches from the 2000’s look like they’ve aged better than 90’s matches (or 90’s matches compared to 80’s or 70’s matches). Give these guys modern equipment or give Nadal and Djokovic old-fashioned equipment (and, obviously, let them practice for long enough to grow comfortable) and you’ll have a much more accurate image. Big thing would be that each group of players would probably have to change their playing styles in accordance with the tech they (and the whole field) will use. Sampras might hug the baseline a little more given how risky a s&v strategy would be against poly, and Nadal might come up to the net more.

Still, you can see the kind of raw talent PETE and Becker had at the net even without the comforts of poly and larger racket heads. Some things just shine through regardless of any gaps in technology.

This is coming from someone who never saw a 90’s match live (I’ve gone back and watched some over the years).
Click to expand...

Boris Becker said that now players are taller than they were in his time, at 6'3 he was one of the tall guys around but now he would be average and a 6'5 or 6'6 also moves pretty well now, he also said Tennis needs to up the height of the net a bit.
 
Dominic & Andrey

Dominic & Andrey

Legend
Nuclear Warhead Sinner said:
I was impressed at first, but as I watched the video I began to understand their play patterns and it got boring.
Biased and perhaps unpopular opinion: Nadal vs Djokovic is much better than this.
Even more controversial opinion: Peak Djokodal would obliterate peak Sampras, especially Nadal.
Click to expand...

Same, it's entertaining but I prefer today's tennis and long rallies way more. But it's nice to see though
 
Last edited:
skaj

skaj

Legend
Nuclear Warhead Sinner said:
I was impressed at first, but as I watched the video I began to understand their play patterns and it got boring.
Biased and perhaps unpopular opinion: Nadal vs Djokovic is much better than this.
Even more controversial opinion: Peak Djokodal would obliterate peak Sampras, especially Nadal.
Click to expand...

I feel bad for you, but I hope in time your taste will develop.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Nuclear Warhead Sinner said:
I was impressed at first, but as I watched the video I began to understand their play patterns and it got boring.
Biased and perhaps unpopular opinion: Nadal vs Djokovic is much better than this.
Even more controversial opinion: Peak Djokodal would obliterate peak Sampras, especially Nadal.
Click to expand...
It depends which Djokodal matches you're talking about.

AO 2012? Hell no. Boring AF.

Thier matches after 2014? Boring beatdown after boring beatdown.
 
G

Gizo

Hall of Fame
In terms of Sampras, out of all the players that I've seen he probably had the most evenly balanced ratio of winners at the net compared to those at the baseline. I don't have any stats to back that up or anything so I'm relying on the 'eye test', but I'd confidently say that he'd be extremely difficult to beat in that department.
 
InsideOut900

InsideOut900

Legend
Nuclear Warhead Sinner said:
I don't even remember the games I've watched from that era. I feel very little emotionally involved and their tennis looks weird to me. I grew up watching Nadal, Djokovic and Murray and my taste in tennis was molded by their play styles.
Click to expand...
You can't get emotionally attached to players before your time, obviously.
It's more about appriciating what other players did relative to their playing conditions. 90s is far from primitive or weird tennis anyway and the old-school Sampras-Agassi matches are fun to watch.

They are part of tennis history and older people used to cheer for them as hard as we cheer for modern players, finding the reason why they were so great or so loved can be quite thrilling for me.

Everyone has different breaking points in terms of what they can and can't watch, true.

Mine is fast-grass with serve and volley, meaning 3 secs of actual play, followed by 20 secs of waiting for the next point.
Or slow clay from 70s and 80s with impossible to watch rallies (hurrey-durrey people claiming modern baselining is boring are really biased when old clay and fast grass matches exist).

Nuclear Warhead Sinner said:
I was impressed at first, but as I watched the video I began to understand their play patterns and it got boring.
Biased and perhaps unpopular opinion: Nadal vs Djokovic is much better than this.
Even more controversial opinion: Peak Djokodal would obliterate peak Sampras, especially Nadal.
Click to expand...
Also about this one...

We have seen players transition from generation to generation, no need to make assumptions of what new players would do to old players.
Most ATGs could play past their era, some just didn't do it because they naturally declined, not because the game passed them.

No need to say they would obliterate Sampras, we have seen a match like 2001 USO QF, very much a modern match, unmatched (as a two way performance) by any other at USO in the last 20 years.
 
Last edited:
BeatlesFan

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Sunny014 said:
We have been reduced to zombies who watch people grinding on court desperately trying to enforce unforced errors on their opponents from the back of the court, the same guys have been making the semis/finals for 12-13 years because of the nature of the courts and when 1 or 2 of them reach 18-20 slams we are forced to convince ourselves that these guys are the greatest of "all time" ? wtf ... really sad that "all time" has been limited to grinding against limited players (guys born after 1990 so weak mentally) and that is being marketed as being superior to people playing unpredictable tennis with inferior equipment but against variety of players.... even the early-mid 00s the slams were unpredictable and not monotonous but that is being marketed by these idiots as a "weak era" ...... wow....
Click to expand...
@Sunny014 Truly GOAT response. Well said!
 
NonP

NonP

Legend
Peak for peak Becker is the best indoor player of the OE, yes even over Sampras though I'd still take Pete for that big match. The clincher between these two lies in the return, especially on the BH side: in their indoor meetings Boris was mostly able to get over 60% of Pete's serves back in, keeping him down to a measly 31.3% of serves unreturned in the famous '96 YEC final. That's about as well as anyone could hope to return the Sampras serve on a quick indoor court (FYI Pete usually averaged over 40% on anything off clay), which alone would not be enough vs. a dialed-in Pistol... except Boris would even serve better indoors, not only in terms of aces and DFs but 1st-serve %, URS%, accuracy, you name it. I'm not sure how much of it to attribute to the lack of sun, wind and other weather elements, or perhaps to the patriotic fervor of the German crowd (though he was hardly less dangerous at Paris), but Becker somehow turned into a different player once he stepped inside an indoor arena, not only serving bigger but diving a la Djokovic and putting up this wall on return. Pete wasn't exaggerating at all when he, following consecutive losses, all but threw up his hands and called Boris the best indoor player he'd ever faced.

Anyhoo however you rank these two I'm 99% positive we've never seen a higher-quality matchup indoors in the last 40-ish years, and quite possibly ever. If you don't see it, you're wrong:

 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
NonP said:
Peak for peak Becker is the best indoor player of the OE, yes even over Sampras though I'd still take Pete for that big match. The clincher between these two lies in the return, especially on the BH side: in their indoor meetings Boris was mostly able to get over 60% of Pete's serves back in, keeping him down to a measly 31.3% of serves unreturned in the famous '96 YEC final. That's about as well as anyone could hope to return the Sampras serve on a quick indoor court (FYI Pete usually averaged over 40% on anything off clay), which alone would not be enough vs. a dialed-in Pistol... except Boris would even serve better indoors, not only in terms of aces and DFs but 1st-serve %, URS%, accuracy, you name it. I'm not sure how much of it to attribute to the lack of sun, wind and other weather elements, or perhaps to the patriotic fervor of the German crowd (though he was hardly less dangerous at Paris), but Becker somehow turned into a different player once he stepped inside an indoor arena, not only serving bigger but diving a la Djokovic and putting up this wall on return. Pete wasn't exaggerating at all when he, following consecutive losses, all but threw up his hands and called Boris the best indoor player he'd ever faced.

Anyhoo however you rank these two I'm 99% positive we've never seen a higher-quality matchup indoors in the last 40-ish years, and quite possibly ever. If you don't see it, you're wrong:

Click to expand...
FranTennis is such a cool youtuber. Uploads so many older matches you wouldn't find anywhere else and you've never seen highlights of.
 
D

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Beckerserve said:
That serve Becker hits to win 1st set was his best serve and he should have hit that v sampras 80 pct of the time.
This was brilliant tennis and better than today lets be honest. And they hit harder!!
Click to expand...
Becker probably served more consistently during his prime years 1985-89 than here. I would like to transport that earlier peak Becker into this match.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

illusions30
Does Chris Evert have a legitimate case to be the GOAT
4 5 6
Replies
285
Views
26K
PDJ
PDJ
M
Does Rod Laver's GOAT case grow stronger as the Big 3 achieve more and more
Replies
45
Views
1K
Dan Lobb
D
tennis-hero
how can it be called a GOAT-worthy season if you lose 16 times in it? (1969)
Replies
27
Views
2K
BobbyOne
B
M
5 men have GREAT cases to be mens GOAT, while 0 women have even a good case to be female GOAT, and 5 have all similarily weak cases
2
Replies
76
Views
3K
Dolgopolov85
D
Gazelle
What a really ugly crowd looks like
Replies
24
Views
2K
Gizo
G
Top