NextGen forehands have ceiling effects in terms of SW

Zoid

Hall of Fame
Lorenzo Musetti is the latest youngster to capture the attention of tennis fans after his semi-final run in Acapulco last week. I caught some of the action and was impressed with his athleticism and tennis IQ. A modern-day athletic Gasquet comes to mind with his deep positioning, heavy strokes, and trigger backhand at times. His forehand is textbook ‘NexGen’ and I believe this shot will hold him back from achieving anything great in the sport. An analysis of forehands is discussed.

The last 20 years has seen the technological aspect of the game stall; the string and racquet materials used today are much the same that was available to players at the turn of the millennium. Despite this, many of the young ‘NextGen’ players coming through have a forehand that is distinct to their generation where the racquet tip 'lags' or faces their opponent and then the ground for much of the take back (most notably Tiafoe, Sock, Kyrgios, but also including Musetti, Kokkinakis, and Khachanov) due to their curled wrist. This creates a whip effect, where the lagged racquet head is snapped through violently, and coupled with some of the extreme grips we see from Sock, Tiafoe, Khachanov, and Kyrgios, the spin and power can be impressive. However, this NextGen swing is inferior to the typical modern forehand we have seen employed by Nadal, Djokovic, and Federer. A comparison of their initial take backs can be seen below. NEXTGEN


khachanov-moscow-final-898x600.jpg

lorenzo-musetti.jpg


f_USTA110510_20160902_BF4_2896.jpg


Modern forehands are distinct from this—the racquet tip maintains an upward angle through take back

federer-forehand-stroke.jpg
52bd10416f41089f87347bfeb03d990d.jpg
rafael-nadal-forehand-backhand.jpg
AZQwJxoblvQF76v-ueTopbhA1PuWIlyaW1OPaWS_0Twozky_34zpl0uk4LGeyhY6y46TvDiZC-xXEfnLECRET4cz7QhQAIDjQsAOPmBcOT_lT29WTe-jE_REEJKsjzXL68IGwTzBVUt7ng2hCsklplkyBEBZyLVL
lYg5aHe-Vzj_Vd2cGiekkQN7IaEopPZlrlnv8BC9mYTWDdZsjsrgPi5Ph7turqIBjKaZCGT58ewn442OXPz4ael0Lsyc0y-IuczWSDgEiwm0Dz7TA-PKJXjNpcWUURrjNb3lxclcQLRznbtDPB8OnjZfWU0


I don’t think this has been due to a concerted effort on the part of coaches; much of this evolves naturally—a players technique and style is shaped from the environment they learn in. So if the equipment has not changed in these years, why has this occurred? Whilst pro-level equipment has remained relatively static, the development of equipment catered for juniors has increased massively, allowing kids to start with 19-inch frames and work their way up a few inches at a time. The same is true of weight; many frames are specced to 250/60/70/80/90 grams in ever finer adjustments. This is in stark contrast to 20-30 years ago. Back then, junior frames were not carried by every brand and most frames started at 300 grams; it wasn’t uncommon for juniors (even as young as 12 or 13) in my day (early 2000’s) to use tour frames (Prestige’s, 200G’s, Pro Staff’s) that weighed in the 330-340 gram range with a swingweight (SW) above 330. This is no longer the case. Most juniors play with lighter frames on slower, bouncier courts and fluffier balls; the result is an environment that rewards lagged swings that can generate more power and spin and handle higher balls whilst not being tested by quick courts. So what you get is faster improvement in Goldilocks conditions, but with ceiling effects in the pros; the swing has multiple drawbacks. The outline of this is broken down into two main issues; difficulty increasing SW, and difficulty in timing faster shots (return of serve, quicker and/or lower bouncing courts).

  1. SW issues
The Nextgen swing path has the wrist curled in (as if you were to flex your forearm) with the racquet tip facing the opponent (sometimes dropping to the ground; Tiafoe, Khachanov, Kokkinakis) before snapping up and through to the ball. There are some differences in elbow separation; Kyrgios and Kokkinakis have a more traditional high elbow pull first (swing starts with elbow pulled toward the back fence with racquet face closer to body) that is reminiscent of Lendl (Kyrgios is sometimes very similar but with NextGen wrist action) and Sampras, but with more extreme grips, whereas Tiafoe and Khachanov take a wider take back that keeps the racquet head far away from their body (elbow is taken back in a more rotated, circular motion). In terms of speed and RPM, Kyrgios has hit some absolute missiles and Sock is known for spin that rivals and perhaps surpasses Nadal. I contend that both of these men have gifted ‘quick’ arms that allow them to get away with this. They can still only achieve this by using a lighter racquet. The maximum possible SW a player could handle by relying so much on the small muscles in the wrist (and less so on gravity and the chest muscles) is significantly lower. A quick look at SW statistics between this NextGen group and the bunch of modern technique forehands I have compiled is displayed below.
fdfe1d_24c30863bff741e48e07596c71974744~mv2.webp

fdfe1d_a00eacc3622445ccb0afafcbae12774b~mv2.webp

You can see from this data that the weights of the NextGen are far below that of the recent crop of top forehands, with an average SW difference of around 23, and if Sock is removed from the data (due to his chocked grip) the average SW difference approaches 27. A higher SW has advantages (if you can wield it effectively; over five-sets you need favourable technique) over a low SW all things being equal; more stability (and therefore more control), more power (a feeling of ‘easy’ power). It is interesting to note there is a correlation between SW and career high ranking observed from a group of 50 players I analysed below. Of course, it may entirely be that better athletes can handle higher SW and that is why they are ranked higher, but nonetheless I think there is a case for to be made that a higher SW will improve results.


fdfe1d_e651ec536de546d28b99eca4ad309a63~mv2.webp

2) Timing

The second issue the curled NextGen wrist encounters is one of timing. Timing the ball depends on a number of factors; speed of shot, pace of court, spin rates, how early you try to take it, and whether you are blocking the ball versus swinging through it. Whilst there is no statistic that relates specifically to timing the ball, return stats versus first serves is an indicator of some ability to handle pace. This is of course, a very imperfect comparison of an elite Grand Slam grouping against young players yet to prove themselves, however the stark difference in this area was interesting. Some notes I have observed having watched them; Kyrgios’s forehand return grip is far more conservative than his actual forehand. I would wager he nearly uses an eastern forehand grip to block returns in. Khachanov’s forehand grip is so extreme he uses the same side of the racquet face for forehands and backhands during rallies, yet doesn’t do so on returns when time is of the essence. Sock on the other hand, uses the same side of the racquet on all topspin shots. Djokovic is the only player in the modern forehand group with something a little more extreme than semi-western perhaps. Federer and Gonzalez are the only one-handers in the group and they often chipped their backhand returns (Gonzalez a lot more) but their return percentages are still quite high. Rafa stands very far back and his return stats are surely due to his clay court prowess. Still, at events where he has held the baseline, he still usually comes over his forehand return.
The curled wrist forehand struggles as the pace and speed of the shot increases; it has one more moving part that makes it that little bit harder to execute. As usual, the NextGen forehand is best suited to conditions where the player has a ball that is not too low or not too fast.
fdfe1d_977035d3d92949978bb68d2249ce2892~mv2.webp
 
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Zoid

Hall of Fame
Aspects of Virtuous Technique

An analysis of the most devastating groundstrokes of the last 20 years has brought to mind the following forehands: Del Potro, Gonzalez, Federer, Nadal. The most devastating single-handed backhands: Wawrinka, Gasquet, Thiem, Almagro. When I use the term devastating, I am considering the ability to inject/generate huge pace, change direction, be a consistent weapon across their career. In analysing these shots, there are three key points I believe are instrumental in their success. By employing these characteristics together, these shots achieve what I like to call ‘virtuous’ or parsimonious technique; they use the simplest but most effective building blocks of pace and control. An explanation of each is outlined below.

Gravity

Look at any slow-motion video from the above player’s shot and one thread that is common in all of them is the use of gravity to generate power. The modern forehand technique is characterised by a racquet tip that is pointed at high noon, with good elbow separation. The racquet head drops considerably before being pulled through to contact. This use of gravity is an effective way to generate lag and power; gravity is a constant and irrespective of how the player is feeling this part of the swing will remain fixed. The same is true for the backhand. High take backs with the racquet above the shoulders and/or head lead to a massive drop before being pulled through. Gasquet is probably the most famous example of this as this clip demonstrates; as Robby Koenig says - it’s not often you hear a commentator say ‘vaporise’ and ‘backhand’ in the same sentence (Gasquet’s groundstrokes both utilise conservative grips and gravity, not surprisingly his SW is also very high in the 380'S).
richard-gasquet-backhand-01.jpg
dominic-thiem-backhand.jpg
1200px-Fernando_Gonzalez_at_the_2011_Wimbledon_Championships.jpg


Grip Conservation

Extreme grips are more common on tour nowadays, after all they can handle higher balls better, generate spin more easily, and are accommodated with larger racquet faces. However I still believe greatness on the forehand side rests somewhere along an eastern to semi-western grip. A more conservative grip allows a player to ‘plow’ through the ball more. Of course, generating spin is more difficult and handling higher balls are tougher, especially as a junior without the requisite wrist strength, but a player who stays the course with this grip has a better chance of generating an all-time great forehand in my opinion. The two biggest forehands of the last twenty years probably belong to Juan Martin del Potro and Fernando Gonzalez. Federer and delPotro are eastern and Nadal and Gonzalez are semi-western. A quick look at their grip and take back showcases these two characteristics perfectly.


Wrist Angles

The image below highlights the different names for wrist positions.
fdfe1d_0538f4cc62cf4058b4ba9b7b2d369b6e~mv2.webp


From this chart you can see that a NextGen forehand swing employs a flexed wrist due to their usually more extreme forehand grip. By comparison, now take note of the modern forehand take back that utilises my virtuous points; it involves an extended wrist position during set-up and take-back, drops into position with ulnar deviation and does not require much supination or any movement of the lower arm in general. Move your hand through those positions and note how little the angles and positions of the lower arm change in this take back and contact; it follows a small and beautifully simple path. It allows a player to maximise SW and maintain easy timing with fewer moving parts. You get more power and more control.


Development of a Forehand

It is my belief that juniors should not be overly pandered to in terms of equipment, soft balls, polyester strings, and slow courts. These things are inherently easier to use and master compared to traditional tennis conditions and given that humans are misers, you are setting a player on a path of least resistance that does no good for him down the road. Tough conditions create tough players with tough technique. Easy conditions….You know. If I was to take a player from scratch at the age of 7 or 8 today, I would find some old garage sale racquet—perhaps a Dunlop Max 200G or ProStaff or any wooden frame, and chop it down. A heavy racquet does not promote a flexed wrist and a young player will instinctively seek power generation through a longer and higher take back. Further, I would be wary of playing on bouncy courts — a high bounce promotes a more extreme grip for a youngster, and this has ceiling effects as discussed above. Clay or low and fast hard courts (ideally a combination of the two) would be best. Lastly, mix up occasionally the conditions; play with wooden racquets, synthetic strings, old balls, new balls, tattered balls. Variety develops resistance.
 
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Shiet, looks like I'll never get past top-30 in the World.

Seriously, an interesting theory but not enough data to support it. It's too soon to see how successful this new technique is.

And "curled wrist"? I don't think so.
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
Lower swing weights also limit the ceiling on return of serve, thus most NextGens being mediocre on return. I recently tried switching to a lower swing weight racquet with a larger head thinking that it would be more forgiving now that I’m older and spent more time playing with my kids than competing or training. But it actually lessened the power and penetration I get on my serve, forehand, and ROS. At the pro level where small margins can produce very disparate results, I’m convinced that the lower swing weights and poly adapted strokes are severely hampering the 90s and 00s kids.

Other important factors in my opinion are growing up with homogenized courts and game styles results in stunted tactical and mechanical development. At the pro level, I think the move away from five set masters finals also gives the up and comers a big disadvantage experience wise at slams
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The article cites Kokkinakis as a net gen forehand, and he's not a next gen anything.

In other words, his next gen is a selected sub-set of the real next gen.

I consider tennis to be a form of technical expetise, and tennis threads are merely opinions.

Holy shiet you're replying to a tennis thread???

Anyway, give me a few examples for your counter-point.
 
The article cites Kokkinakis as a net gen forehand, and he's not a next gen anything.

In other words, his next gen is a selected sub-set of the real next gen.

I consider tennis to be a form of technical expetise, and tennis threads are merely opinions.

We're talking about forehands, not gen labels.

I'd really like it if up could make your point with some examples.
 

Mediterranean Might

Professional
Very cool work, thanks for your insight and theses.

From my view, the swing weight vs career high ranking chart looked like it lacked data points and had a weak correlation. What's the r^2 there? I probably wouldn't even include it as a talking point if it's too low
 

Zoid

Hall of Fame
No. You're wrong. The article is making a gneralisation about nextgen forehands, and like most generalisations it is wrong.

I use the term 'NextGen forehand' to name this distinct trend we are seeing from a decent subset of youngsters, of course not all have this and plenty still have a modern forehand. It's named that way because I've only really seen it from NextGen players. The point of the article is to simply point out that it's an inferior technique, highlight what really matters on the forehand/groundstrokes, and maintain that we will probably see more of it as long as tennis stays the way it is for juniors.

I'm not making a generalisation about all Nextgen players..."many of the young ‘NextGen’ players coming through have a forehand that is distinct to their generation" is different to 'all nextgen players do this'.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The real message here is that the curled wrist forehand is inferiior to the racquet high one.

I can agree with this but this article is not the first to point this out.

And even within the so-called modern forehand there is considerable individual variation.
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
It's just sad to see arguably the 2 best forehand of all time not have any sort of legacy. Federer and Nadal proved the kind of success you can have in modern conditions with their traditional tackebacks and straight arm follow throughs. And yet there isn't anyone who is carrying on that style. Is it just because coaches and parents are so focused on making tangible progress as children with early results that no one is willing to attempt a long term investment in their form?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Any misinterpretation of your intention is due mainly to your presentation of the issue.

I use the term 'NextGen forehand' to name this distinct trend we are seeing from a decent subset of youngsters, of course not all have this and plenty still have a modern forehand. It's named that way because I've only really seen it from NextGen players. The point of the article is to simply point out that it's an inferior technique, highlight what really matters on the forehand/groundstrokes, and maintain that we will probably see more of it as long as tennis stays the way it is for juniors.

I'm not making a generalisation about all Nextgen players..."many of the young ‘NextGen’ players coming through have a forehand that is distinct to their generation" is different to 'all nextgen players do this'.
 

Zoid

Hall of Fame
Very cool work, thanks for your insight and theses.

From my view, the swing weight vs career high ranking chart looked like it lacked data points and had a weak correlation. What's the r^2 there? I probably wouldn't even include it as a talking point if it's too low

I threw it together quickly on a hunch a while back, about 50 players from 2000-ish to now, and i did point out that it's not hard evidence, but it is interesting and I believe it has some merit, if someone wanted to do an in-depth look at it. I only have a screenshot of the graph and can't find the excel file now. Could simply be that better athletes are better tennis players who use heavier sticks.
 
I use the term 'NextGen forehand' to name this distinct trend we are seeing from a decent subset of youngsters, of course not all have this and plenty still have a modern forehand. It's named that way because I've only really seen it from NextGen players. The point of the article is to simply point out that it's an inferior technique, highlight what really matters on the forehand/groundstrokes, and maintain that we will probably see more of it as long as tennis stays the way it is for juniors.

I'm not making a generalisation about all Nextgen players..."many of the young ‘NextGen’ players coming through have a forehand that is distinct to their generation" is different to 'all nextgen players do this'.

What do you think of Alexei Popyrin's FH?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
I doubt that many of those with virtuous technique learnt on chopped down wooden frames with synthetic strings and tattered balls.

And was a next gen player like Krygios ever trainable? His technique may place a ceiling on his potential, but he wasn't going anywhere without doing it his own way.

Aspects of Virtuous Technique

An analysis of the most devastating groundstrokes of the last 20 years has brought to mind the following forehands: Del Potro, Gonzalez, Federer, Nadal. The most devastating single-handed backhands: Wawrinka, Gasquet, Thiem, Almagro. When I use the term devastating, I am considering the ability to inject/generate huge pace, change direction, be a consistent weapon across their career. In analysing these shots, there are three key points I believe are instrumental in their success. By employing these characteristics together, these shots achieve what I like to call ‘virtuous’ or parsimonious technique; they use the simplest but most effective building blocks of pace and control. An explanation of each is outlined below.


Development of a Forehand

It is my belief that juniors should not be overly pandered to in terms of equipment, soft balls, polyester strings, and slow courts. These things are inherently easier to use and master compared to traditional tennis conditions and given that humans are misers, you are setting a player on a path of least resistance that does no good for him down the road. Tough conditions create tough players with tough technique. Easy conditions….You know. If I was to take a player from scratch at the age of 7 or 8 today, I would find some old garage sale racquet—perhaps a Dunlop Max 200G or ProStaff or any wooden frame, and chop it down. A heavy racquet does not promote a flexed wrist and a young player will instinctively seek power generation through a longer and higher take back with an extended wrist. Further, I would be wary of playing on bouncy courts — a high bounce promotes a more extreme grip for a youngster, and this has ceiling effects as discussed above. Clay or low and fast hard courts (ideally a combination of the two) would be best. Lastly, mix up occasionally the conditions; play with wooden racquets, synthetic strings, old balls, new balls, tattered balls. Variety develops resistance.
 

Zoid

Hall of Fame
Any misinterpretation of your intention is due mainly to your presentation of the issue.

Your issue seems to be that you thought I meant all nextgen forehands, which is your interpretation, not the articles..."many of the young ‘NextGen’ players coming through have a forehand that is distinct to their generation" I included specific examples of the players I mentioned, so the generalisation that all nextgen forehands are like this has been deduced all on your own.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
This discussion is also a subset of the 'limitations of extreme grips' discussion that once did the rounds.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
You should have referred to the curled wrist forehand technique. You have created the perception, not me. It made for a more catchy hook to talk about the next gen, but it's a generalisation.

Your issue seems to be that you thought I meant all nextgen forehands, which is your interpretation, not the articles..."many of the young ‘NextGen’ players coming through have a forehand that is distinct to their generation" I included specific examples of the players I mentioned, so the generalisation that all nextgen forehands are like this has been deduced all on your own.
 

Zoid

Hall of Fame
You should have referred to the curled wrist forehand technique. You have created the perception, not me. It made for a more catchy hook to talk about the next gen, but it's a generalisation.

If a forehand technique belongs nearly exclusively to a particular group (i.e. nextgen players) it is only natural that the forehand technique in question gets tagged to that group. Your missing the forest for the trees
 

BH40love

Semi-Pro
Lorenzo Musetti is the latest youngster to capture the attention of tennis fans after his semi-final run in Acapulco last week. I caught some of the action and was impressed with his athleticism and tennis IQ. A modern-day athletic Gasquet comes to mind with his deep positioning, heavy strokes, and trigger backhand at times. His forehand is textbook ‘NexGen’ and I believe this shot will hold him back from achieving anything great in the sport. An analysis of forehands is discussed.

The last 20 years has seen the technological aspect of the game stall; the string and racquet materials used today are much the same that was available to players at the turn of the millennium. Despite this, many of the young ‘NextGen’ players coming through have a forehand that is distinct to their generation where the racquet tip 'lags' or faces their opponent and then the ground for much of the take back (most notably Tiafoe, Sock, Kyrgios, but also including Musetti, Kokkinakis, and Khachanov) due to their curled wrist. This creates a whip effect, where the lagged racquet head is snapped through violently, and coupled with some of the extreme grips we see from Sock, Tiafoe, Khachanov, and Kyrgios, the spin and power can be impressive. However, this NextGen swing is inferior to the typical modern forehand we have seen employed by Nadal, Djokovic, and Federer. A comparison of their initial take backs can be seen below. NEXTGEN


khachanov-moscow-final-898x600.jpg

lorenzo-musetti.jpg


f_USTA110510_20160902_BF4_2896.jpg


Modern forehands are distinct from this—the racquet tip maintains an upward angle through take back

federer-forehand-stroke.jpg
52bd10416f41089f87347bfeb03d990d.jpg
rafael-nadal-forehand-backhand.jpg
AZQwJxoblvQF76v-ueTopbhA1PuWIlyaW1OPaWS_0Twozky_34zpl0uk4LGeyhY6y46TvDiZC-xXEfnLECRET4cz7QhQAIDjQsAOPmBcOT_lT29WTe-jE_REEJKsjzXL68IGwTzBVUt7ng2hCsklplkyBEBZyLVL
lYg5aHe-Vzj_Vd2cGiekkQN7IaEopPZlrlnv8BC9mYTWDdZsjsrgPi5Ph7turqIBjKaZCGT58ewn442OXPz4ael0Lsyc0y-IuczWSDgEiwm0Dz7TA-PKJXjNpcWUURrjNb3lxclcQLRznbtDPB8OnjZfWU0


I don’t think this has been due to a concerted effort on the part of coaches; much of this evolves naturally—a players technique and style is shaped from the environment they learn in. So if the equipment has not changed in these years, why has this occurred? Whilst pro-level equipment has remained relatively static, the development of equipment catered for juniors has increased massively, allowing kids to start with 19-inch frames and work their way up a few inches at a time. The same is true of weight; many frames are specced to 250/60/70/80/90 grams in ever finer adjustments. This is in stark contrast to 20-30 years ago. Back then, junior frames were not carried by every brand and most frames started at 300 grams; it wasn’t uncommon for juniors (even as young as 12 or 13) in my day (early 2000’s) to use tour frames (Prestige’s, 200G’s, Pro Staff’s) that weighed in the 330-340 gram range with a swingweight (SW) above 330. This is no longer the case. Most juniors play with lighter frames on slower, bouncier courts and fluffier balls; the result is an environment that rewards lagged swings that can generate more power and spin and handle higher balls whilst not being tested by quick courts. So what you get is faster improvement in Goldilocks conditions, but with ceiling effects in the pros; the swing has multiple drawbacks. The outline of this is broken down into two main issues; difficulty increasing SW, and difficulty in timing faster shots (return of serve, quicker and/or lower bouncing courts).

  1. SW issues
The Nextgen swing path has the wrist curled in (as if you were to flex your forearm) with the racquet tip facing the opponent (sometimes dropping to the ground; Tiafoe, Khachanov, Kokkinakis) before snapping up and through to the ball. There are some differences in elbow separation; Kyrgios and Kokkinakis have a more traditional high elbow pull first (swing starts with elbow pulled toward the back fence with racquet face closer to body) that is reminiscent of Lendl (Kyrgios is sometimes very similar but with NextGen wrist action) and Sampras, but with more extreme grips, whereas Tiafoe and Khachanov take a wider take back that keeps the racquet head far away from their body (elbow is taken back in a more rotated, circular motion). In terms of speed and RPM, Kyrgios has hit some absolute missiles and Sock is known for spin that rivals and perhaps surpasses Nadal. I contend that both of these men have gifted ‘quick’ arms that allow them to get away with this. They can still only achieve this by using a lighter racquet. The maximum possible SW a player could handle by relying so much on the small muscles in the wrist (and less so on gravity and the chest muscles) is significantly lower. A quick look at SW statistics between this NextGen group and the bunch of modern technique forehands I have compiled is displayed below.
fdfe1d_24c30863bff741e48e07596c71974744~mv2.webp

fdfe1d_a00eacc3622445ccb0afafcbae12774b~mv2.webp

You can see from this data that the weights of the NextGen are far below that of the recent crop of top forehands, with an average SW difference of around 13, and if Sock is removed from the data (due to his chocked grip) the average SW difference approaches 17. A higher SW has advantages (if you can wield it effectively; over five-sets you need favourable technique) over a low SW all things being equal; more stability (and therefore more control), more power (a feeling of ‘easy’ power). It is interesting to note there is a correlation between SW and career high ranking observed from a group of 50 players I analysed below. Of course, it may entirely be that better athletes can handle higher SW and that is why they are ranked higher, but nonetheless I think there is a case for to be made that a higher SW will improve results.


fdfe1d_e651ec536de546d28b99eca4ad309a63~mv2.webp

2) Timing

The second issue the curled NextGen wrist encounters is one of timing. Timing the ball depends on a number of factors; speed of shot, pace of court, spin rates, how early you try to take it, and whether you are blocking the ball versus swinging through it. Whilst there is no statistic that relates specifically to timing the ball, return stats versus first serves is an indicator of some ability to handle pace. This is of course, a very imperfect comparison of an elite Grand Slam grouping against young players yet to prove themselves, however the stark difference in this area was interesting. Some notes I have observed having watched them; Kyrgios’s forehand return grip is far more conservative than his actual forehand. I would wager he nearly uses an eastern forehand grip to block returns in. Khachanov’s forehand grip is so extreme he uses the same side of the racquet face for forehands and backhands during rallies, yet doesn’t do so on returns when time is of the essence. Sock on the other hand, uses the same side of the racquet on all topspin shots. Djokovic is the only player in the modern forehand group with something a little more extreme than semi-western perhaps. Federer and Gonzalez are the only one-handers in the group and they often chipped their backhand returns (Gonzalez a lot more) but their return percentages are still quite high. Rafa stands very far back and his return stats are surely due to his clay court prowess. Still, at events where he has held the baseline, he still usually comes over his forehand return.
The curled wrist forehand struggles as the pace and speed of the shot increases; it has one more moving part that makes it that little bit harder to execute. As usual, the NextGen forehand is best suited to conditions where the player has a ball that is not too low or not too fast.
fdfe1d_977035d3d92949978bb68d2249ce2892~mv2.webp

this was a great analysis mate.I think that the modern forehand technique is much more effective from a technical and physical aspect. The others seem to be more outliers but a great deal of the younger players have this unorthodox grip and I wonder if it stems from bad technique from juniors or what.

higher SW the better! Grip it and rip it
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Nadal's buggy whip forehand also placed a floor under his success at Wimbledon, but he has more than sufficient compensation for his personal style.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
My guess is that if the racquet is providing the power, their assumption is that the curled wrist would provide them with more spin.

Krygios doesn't have a problem with gripping and ripping when he wants to, and his main problem is motivation and not technique.

this was a great analysis mate.I think that the modern forehand technique is much more effective from a technical and physical aspect. The others seem to be more outliers but a great deal of the younger players have this unorthodox grip and I wonder if it stems from bad technique from juniors or what.

higher SW the better! Grip it and rip it
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
Solid thread.

I've been trumpeting some variations on the same theme in the past (’many people are saying...'), but this puts it much more systematically with more meat on the bone.

The details of the how the why will of course be speculative, but I tend to think the gist of this is true. As an aside, the NextGenners with more standard modern forehands almost invariably seem to be more promising than their postmodern peers.
 

Zoid

Hall of Fame
Nadal's buggy whip forehand also placed a floor under his success at Wimbledon, but he has more than sufficient compensation for his personal style.

i don't understand this - are you saying his buggy whip hampered his wimbledon odds?

My guess is that if the racquet is providing the power, their assumption is that the curled wrist would provide them with more spin.

Krygios doesn't have a problem with gripping and ripping when he wants to, and his main problem is motivation and not technique.

The curled wrist is a defect from light junior frames that pigeon holes them into lighter frames later on. I don't think players sit down and theorize about 'racquets providing power so I'll do this with my wrist to get spin', their development is intuitive and instinctive and they gravitate to a frame that accomodates this proclivity.

And Kyrgios has one of the most gifted, fastest arms in tennis; you can't teach speed.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Nadal's forehand doesn't allow his game to flourish fully on grass as opposed to clay.

I was speculating and not attributing my thoughts to particular players.

They do have coaches to eliminate technical limitations, but I'm sure Krygios ignored advice.

As a generalisation, there is a lot more individual variation than this modern/next gen classification allows for.

And you can teach speed. And Krygios uses speed perhaps too sparingly.

i don't understand this - are you saying his buggy whip hampered his wimbledon odds?



The curled wrist is a defect from light junior frames that pigeon holes them into lighter frames later on. I don't think players sit down and theorize about 'racquets providing power so I'll do this with my wrist to get spin', their development is intuitive and instinctive and they gravitate to a frame that accomodates this proclivity.

And Kyrgios has one of the most gifted, fastest arms in tennis; you can't teach speed.
 

Zoid

Hall of Fame
Nadal's forehand doesn't allow his game to flourish fully on grass as opposed to clay.

I was speculating and not attributing my thoughts to particular players.

They do have coaches to eliminate technical limitations, but I'm sure Krygios ignored advice.

As a generalisation, there is a lot more individual variation than this modern/next gen classification allows for.

And you can teach speed. And Krygios uses speed perhaps too sparingly.

- Nadal's forehand shortcomings on grass are due more to his follow through than his take back. If he was committed to driving through the court more (which he has done at times, twice a winner and plenty of semis etc.) Plus so soon after the french...it's a factor and hard to back up

- Agree there is variation in technique, every player's technique has it's own subtleties, but the flexed wrist is a thread amongst several youngsters

- If you can teach speed please let me know. After 10 years of coaching I keep seeing the fastest players at 10 are the fastest at 18. It's annoying me.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Players like Nadal tend to grunt as they amp up their speed. This technique must have either been taught or tolerated. I've even heard myself do it with positive outcomes on speed.

Not everyone hits at full speed all the time. It's a question of individual variability why this is the case. It beats me why Krygios doesn't use speed more often, for example.

The number of arguments about Nadal only needing to do what he did once in serving quicker or hitting with more drive through and many more slams would rain down upon him are legion.

The fact is probably that he has a certain range to his technique, and he only sometimes hits the outermost limit probably for good reason. You do have to play well for many sets and matches to win slams!

- Nadal's forehand shortcomings on grass are due more to his follow through than his take back. If he was committed to driving through the court more (which he has done at times, twice a winner and plenty of semis etc.) Plus so soon after the french...it's a factor and hard to back up

- Agree there is variation in technique, every player's technique has it's own subtleties, but the flexed wrist is a thread amongst several youngsters

- If you can teach speed please let me know. After 10 years of coaching I keep seeing the fastest players at 10 are the fastest at 18. It's annoying me.
 
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