Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
No other than Scott Walker!
GOAT Pop singer?
- Thread starter Nadalgaenger
- Start date
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
clout
Hall of Fame
50s: Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Ray Charles, and Buddy Holly
60s: Beatles (are they considered pop?), Jimi Hendrix, Beach Boys, and Bob Dylan
70s: Queen, Elton John, ABBA, and David Bowie
80s: Michael Jackson, Madonna, and Whitney Houston (GOAT decade for pop music imo)
90s: Mariah Carey, Backstreet Boys, Spice Girls, Shania Twain, and Boyz II Men
00s: Britney Spears, Beyoncé, Justin Timberlake, and Lady Gaga
10s: Rihanna, Drake, Taylor Swift and BTS (don’t listen to much current stuff tho)
60s: Beatles (are they considered pop?), Jimi Hendrix, Beach Boys, and Bob Dylan
70s: Queen, Elton John, ABBA, and David Bowie
80s: Michael Jackson, Madonna, and Whitney Houston (GOAT decade for pop music imo)
90s: Mariah Carey, Backstreet Boys, Spice Girls, Shania Twain, and Boyz II Men
00s: Britney Spears, Beyoncé, Justin Timberlake, and Lady Gaga
10s: Rihanna, Drake, Taylor Swift and BTS (don’t listen to much current stuff tho)
skaj
Legend
Are you trying to point out the deterioration? Cause if you are, it's working.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Rihannas music is everything though. Probably the last true great pop discography
Vcore89
Talk Tennis Guru
skaj
Legend
She's alright, has some catchy tunes.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
TimHenmanATG
Hall of Fame
Britney is clearly mentally unwell. She needs an independent assessment, and a programme to re-integrate herself back into society.
It's disgusting how family members - who should have a duty to look after her welfare - are apparently keeping her as a prisoner.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Yep it's clear she's unwell but being locked up as a prisoner is making it 10x worse.
clout
Hall of Fame
Not directly but yes, current day pop music is pretty garbage in comparison to past decades lol
Fair enough, I don't actually mind him as an actor but as a musician? Never a fan from day one. Cry Me A River and What Goes Around... are the only songs of his I sort of liked...
It's very sad watching interviews from the early 2000s then watching more recent ones. She clearly had a lot more zest for life back then, she was the most charismatic girl on the planet
FlamingCheeto
Hall of Fame
Bagumbawalla
G.O.A.T.
I an going to say Connie Francis
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
Mark Gormley, hands down
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
Madonna over Hendrix.. Got it.
Michael Jackson > The Beatles.....Whitney Houston > Dylan/Brian Wilson
ABBA in the same sentence as Bowie & Freddy Mercury
NonP
Legend
What Britney's family (or dad in particular) has been doing to her is indeed regrettable and common cases like hers are why conservatorship should be placed outside the family, but she doesn't get sympathy points as a musician and it's downright laughable to name her the queen of all time. Hell, even as a pop star she's probably not in the top 20 of the '90s - off the top of my head Nirvana, Shania, Madge, Eminem, 2Pac, Jay-Z, Alanis and Green Day clearly rank over Britney, and that's not even counting very arguable contenders like Radiohead, Oasis, Pearl Jam, Fugees, Wu-Tang, GnR, etc.
A couple more things:
I frankly doubt Bey will outlast Gaga, Slim and Tay Tay, let alone GOATs like the Fab 4, MJ, Madge, etc. Simply put Beyonce is not much of a musician compared to those 3, and apart from "Crazy in Love" and "Single Ladies" I can't think of any of her hits that I expect to be blaring at parties a century from now.
LOL, more like a rundown of the most popular and/or famous, which ain't what this thread is (or should be) about. The likes of Drake and BTS may be ruling the charts now but they'll be forgotten once their fanbase grows up.
Some of the most egregious omissions from your list:
50s: no serious beef here, except that Little Richard belongs in any rock-n-roll pantheon*
60s: James Brown (and the Famous Flames), the Velvet Underground, Creedence Clearwater Revival (though their heyday straddles both the '60s and the '70s) and Aretha Franklin (ditto)
70s: the Rolling Stones (with the caveat about their best '60s work), Marvin Gaye and Al Green
80s: Prince** above all and also Bruce Springsteen (with all due respect to Born to Run)
90s: see above (I'll throw in an honorable mention for Celine, yes thanks to you-know-what)
00s: Eminem (again) and Kanye West (this is when hip hop replaces rock as the dominant force in pop music)
10s: nobody, really***
*Few if any have ever embodied the music's spirit so completely, despite his brief reign which may well be the shortest among pop/rock royalty:
**Whitney over the Purple One has gotta be the joke of the decade, especially when she didn't produce her most enduring hit until 1992.
***At least not one who can challenge pop icons of yore, so I'll just include a shout-out to Billie Eilish who stands out even among the young coterie of Kacey Musgraves, Cardi B, Ariana Grande and Lorde:
It may be a silly list but he put both Jimi and Madge second in their respective decade so I dunno where you got that "over." And Madonna over Hendrix is hardly outrageous when we're talking the greatest pop musicians.
Likewise MJ ranks over every individual Beatle including John. The only names in your post that deserve ridicule are Whitney and ABBA (though even these two aren't without their merits, as I conceded in the linked posts).
A couple more things:
I frankly doubt Bey will outlast Gaga, Slim and Tay Tay, let alone GOATs like the Fab 4, MJ, Madge, etc. Simply put Beyonce is not much of a musician compared to those 3, and apart from "Crazy in Love" and "Single Ladies" I can't think of any of her hits that I expect to be blaring at parties a century from now.
LOL, more like a rundown of the most popular and/or famous, which ain't what this thread is (or should be) about. The likes of Drake and BTS may be ruling the charts now but they'll be forgotten once their fanbase grows up.
Some of the most egregious omissions from your list:
50s: no serious beef here, except that Little Richard belongs in any rock-n-roll pantheon*
60s: James Brown (and the Famous Flames), the Velvet Underground, Creedence Clearwater Revival (though their heyday straddles both the '60s and the '70s) and Aretha Franklin (ditto)
70s: the Rolling Stones (with the caveat about their best '60s work), Marvin Gaye and Al Green
80s: Prince** above all and also Bruce Springsteen (with all due respect to Born to Run)
90s: see above (I'll throw in an honorable mention for Celine, yes thanks to you-know-what)
00s: Eminem (again) and Kanye West (this is when hip hop replaces rock as the dominant force in pop music)
10s: nobody, really***
*Few if any have ever embodied the music's spirit so completely, despite his brief reign which may well be the shortest among pop/rock royalty:
**Whitney over the Purple One has gotta be the joke of the decade, especially when she didn't produce her most enduring hit until 1992.
***At least not one who can challenge pop icons of yore, so I'll just include a shout-out to Billie Eilish who stands out even among the young coterie of Kacey Musgraves, Cardi B, Ariana Grande and Lorde:
It may be a silly list but he put both Jimi and Madge second in their respective decade so I dunno where you got that "over." And Madonna over Hendrix is hardly outrageous when we're talking the greatest pop musicians.
Likewise MJ ranks over every individual Beatle including John. The only names in your post that deserve ridicule are Whitney and ABBA (though even these two aren't without their merits, as I conceded in the linked posts).
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Literally so worrying
On Whitney Houston: To be fair, the title of the thread was greatest pop singer. That can be interpreted how ever you want, but in terms of pure singing ability I probably would give it to Whitney tbh, if we're talking solely about pop music. Otherwise the likes of Aretha, Sam Cooke etc. come into play...
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Whitney over Dionne? Dusty?
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Been on a Diana Ross kick lately. Loving her
D
Deleted member 771911
Guest
Someone posted a long post how saying Britney is your fave is laughable. Well, maybe to some people. But the question is very subjective. And it's not just about the music and voice. It's about them and their personality and how you relate to them. I could imagine hanging out with her and adore her personality.
TimHenmanATG
Hall of Fame
It's very remiss of me, but when I focused upon GOATney, I completely neglected to address another pop music GOAT:
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NonP
Legend
Great pipes don't necessarily make great singing. If the former were a necessity nobody would consider Billie Holiday among the very greatest vocalists, one who could express more tender pain in mere minutes than Whitney did in her entire career. And while she might edge out Aretha in sheer technical virtuosity she could only hope to emulate her great predecessor's limpid, sweet tone even in the highest register.
Actually forget these titans. Name me one Houston track where she imbues each syllable and phrase with half as much meaning as Judy does here:
And even Shirley Owens (of the Shirelles) displays more taste and intelligence than your personal GSOAT on average. Simply put it's not enough to wield an extraordinary instrument if you can't do much more than hitting high notes with it.
Now let's switch genders. Check out this towering "Unchained Melody," which per an article recently posted by @Mike Bulgakov may well be Elvis' very last public performance:
Whitney may wow with her powerhouse vocals in "I Will Always Love You," but she never tickles your innermost gut, let alone rips it inside out like Elvis does here. In fact not even Bobby Hatfield of the Righteous Brothers, despite his own felicitous touches, manages to equal the King's almost spiritual transcendence, which is why I keep vacillating between their two renditions as the best this chestnut has received to date.
That otherworldly gift is possessed by very, very few, and Whitney for all her talent wasn't one of 'em. She might have been able to cut more tracks on par with her greatest hit had she stuck to her gospel roots, but she actually enjoyed belting out pop schlock so you can't blame Clive James for her disappointing career path. If anything one could well argue she might never have had a chance at her career-defining makeover of Dolly's modest ballad outside the studio system.
"Subjective" doesn't mean anything goes. Even amateurs can see that the top Idol/Voice contestants are a class above the pretenders, and Britney is one of the latter compared to ATGs.
Of course you're welcome to retort that she's your GOAT singer, but why would you limit yourself like that when there's so much superior music out there?
D
Deleted member 771911
Guest
She's my GOAT pop singer. I am strangely moved by her song Everytime. I also just get her, whatever that might mean. It's a feeling really.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Have you seen Spring Breakers? Great scene set to Everytime in that
This is opening up a new can of worms though, it's sort of difficult to compare genres. 3-4 minute pop songs of the variety that Whitney Houston sings are not really designed in such a way to wring out every ounce of emotion in the same way R&B or gospel songs are. Are you saying Whitney could have sung her songs better? She can only sing the material she is given.
For me personally, I've always found music a lot more fun if you can just get on board with everything and don't look down on certain genres or artists. So I could listen to Britney Spears one moment, then The Clash, then Joni Mitchell, then Pavement. And so on. It can all be appreciated in one way or another...
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D
Deleted member 771911
Guest
No. I will check it out. Thanks for the heads up.
D
Deleted member 771911
Guest
Oh, I just saw it's by Harmony Korine. I respect his work.
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
It is a silly (read: misinformed) list. But since Hendrix was included, all bets are off. "Madonna...when we're talking the GREATEST pop MUSICIANS." <--- LMAO!!
Michael Jackson: you can't arbitrarily move the proverbial goalposts: the list included The Beatles. And besides, the opinion of someone who cites *Madonna* as one of the "greatest MUSICIANS" should hardly qualify you as some Robert Christgau (sorry @MichaelNadal, I know how dear Madonna is to your heart). Back to Jacko: I got to see Michael Jackson live at MSG (Victory tour)--nothing against him; loved him; the guy was an amazing performer. Great show (shook/slapped hands with my better half while traipsing up the side steps of the stage). As far as 'changed the landscape' went however, while Jacko was a great pop tunester and a gifted performer...he never really moved the pop cultural needle in the manner of the Beatles.
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
Good post. Maybe you do sort of get it...
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
I never put MSG in my music! Pop culture, like fashion, flowed into multiple tributaries. No needles will be turned again.
NonP
Legend
LOL, I like moi some Whitney myself, and I still think her "I Will Always Love You" will far outlast "Uptown Funk!", "Shape of You," "Old Town Road," "Despacito," "Rolling in the Deep" or just about any other recent Billboard topper.
It's just the GOAT nonsense I have a problem with. Satch, Billie, Ella, Edith, Frank, Judy, Elvis, Patsy, Aretha, Al, Otis, Roy, George (Jones) and their few peers - those were truly great singers, ones who understood there's more to singing than high notes, big volume and hushed tones. They're not really the models for Whitney, who belongs instead with the razzle-dazzle sisterhood of Barbra, Celine, Mariah and Christina.
My response is that choosing the right material or, if you will, having the right taste is a must for great singers. I understand even the greatest artists can't ignore commercial interests completely - gawd knows Aretha sang her own share of dreck over the years - but for them appealing to the mainstream was a way to stay relevant whereas Whitney embraced it from the very beginning. There's no way one can listen to "Saving All My Love for You," "I Wanna Dance with Somebody" or "I'm Your Baby Tonight" and not conclude that's where her heart was.
Besides you're assuming Whitney was undone by poor material through little fault of her own when the evidence suggests quite the contrary. Here's her singing "I Love the Lord," from the Preacher's Wife OST aka the best-selling "gospel" album:
This is a generic R&B track in all but name with some choir thrown in. Hardly distinguished, and it's really an insult to gospel to call it that.
OK, but that can still be chalked up to studio interference, you say? Then how do you explain this poppy live "Amazing Grace"?
I may not be a churchgoer but I've heard enough gospel to know that ain't how this or other hymns are sung at most (Black) churches and funerals. Now compare this version with Aretha's:
You needn't be a believer to be able to tell which one has more soul. Given all this evidence it's hard to escape the conclusion that Whitney was at heart a pop singer with a capital "P" and big pipes shaped but not informed by her gospel roots. She's no Aretha, despite their mutual respect (or envy), and the above is only one of the zillion examples that illustrate why.
FYI Christgau is hardly the one you wanna fall back on to dismiss Madonna, 'cause the guy has been one of her biggest boosters from the get-go. Here, just a sampling of his typical gushing:
- On her eponymous debut album (A-): "At one stiff per four-song side, smarter than Elvis Costello."
- On The Immaculate Collection (one of his rare A pluses): "Seventeen hits, more than half of them indelible classics: 'Holiday' (ebullient), 'Lucky Star' (blessed), 'Like a Virgin' (wicked), 'Papa Don't Preach' (immoral), 'Express Yourself' (feminist), 'Material Girl' (dialectical), 'Vogue' (expressive), 'Open Your Heart' (naked), 'Justify My Love' (erotica), 'Into the Groove' (disco)."
- On Erotica (A): "[P]retend we've never heard of Madonna. I know that's like asking you not to think of a purple polar bear, so just pretend to pretend, if you know what I mean, which as good postmodernist children you do. Now, put the record on. Hear those bass and synth beats? Sinuous and subtle and sexy, aren't they? How 'bout the faux-Arab electro on 'Words'? And aren't the techno effects all nice and cheesy-futuristic? The singer doesn't have great pipes, but because she's too hip to belt (this time), she doesn't need them. She's in control, all understated presence and impersonal personality except when she's flashing some pink."
- To start off his review of Music (another A): "Anybody who denies that Madonna made great singles in the '80s is a boob."
- On GHV2: Greatest Hits Volume 2 (B+): "An essential package."
- On her latest Madame X (A-): "If you think Aunt Madge has become a bore, that's your petty right. If you remain fond of her, pour yourself a nice glass of chablis and listen."
And no rock connoisseur denies that the Beatles are tops. My point was, even the Fab 4 were reduced to merely excellent once they were on their own while the opposite was true for Jacko. And he's easily the closest thing to the Beatles since they broke up. In fact I doubt anyone (yes including J&P&G&R) has ever "moved the pop cultural needle" like MJ did at the peak of his Thriller superstardom. Wannabes like Usher, Timberlake and the Weeknd tried to ape him in all but the most obvious ways to no avail, and one could easily argue half of today's Billboard 200 bear at least some traces of MJ's vast influence, with their Jacksonesque vocal trademarks and showmanship. Hip hop is by far the dominant pop music today and that just doesn't happen without MJ paving the way by ending MTV's choke hold on Black artists and relegating radio to the back seat.
Most importantly, though, as many an astute observer has pointed out MJ's music is the darkest and strangest ever to command a worldwide audience. His tics and mannerisms can be mocked, copied, emulated but not duplicated, because if his obsessive paranoia is what ultimately led to his downfall and demise it is also what made his best music so crazy good:
Which means he'll continue to attract countless admirers and imitators to come, though you could say that's also exactly why his musical influence will necessarily be limited.
Whitney Houston's most acclaimed song by a comfortable margin is I Wanna Dance With Somebody. IWALY will probably outlast all those songs though, maybe with the exception of Rolling In The Deep which is one of two Adele tracks I really like (the other being Chasing Pavements). Whitney could have done it all, but she was a pop singer, selling records was what she was in the game for. I don't blame her for that, she put out some great tracks and had an amazing career influencing generations of artists. Most of those singers listed aren't pop singers, it's just becoming the greatest singers of all time. I don't know if Whitney would make my top 10 or 20 of all time, but I thought it was just pop singers
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Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Another thing is Whitney was singing the songs Clive wanted her to. He fashioned a 'crossover' sound for her which made her more appealing to an universal audience but which also meant that her soul was carefully tucked away whenever that was possible.
None of Whitney's big hits have the quality that Memories has. And she was just 19 then. She had incredible potential, simply off the charts, which was wasted by record labels because they always thought/think they know what the people want to hear.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
In terms of getting the most out of the song, I really don't know how you can do more with Saving All My Love than Whitney does in this performance. The combination of range, power, phrasing and energy is simply perfect. If the song itself is hollow, that's not her fault.
This is one of my complaints about arguments about which singer sounds more 'authentic' in conveying their emotions. It inevitably leads people to favour singers who also write their own songs. And yes, that IS the best format for a singer. But by the same token, singing songs somebody else has penned and breathing life into them is incredibly challenging.
This is one of my complaints about arguments about which singer sounds more 'authentic' in conveying their emotions. It inevitably leads people to favour singers who also write their own songs. And yes, that IS the best format for a singer. But by the same token, singing songs somebody else has penned and breathing life into them is incredibly challenging.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
It is a silly (read: misinformed) list. But since Hendrix was included, all bets are off. "Madonna...when we're talking the GREATEST pop MUSICIANS." <--- LMAO!!
Michael Jackson: you can't arbitrarily move the proverbial goalposts: the list included The Beatles. And besides, the opinion of someone who cites *Madonna* as one of the "greatest MUSICIANS" should hardly qualify you as some Robert Christgau (sorry @MichaelNadal, I know how dear Madonna is to your heart). Back to Jacko: I got to see Michael Jackson live at MSG (Victory tour)--nothing against him; loved him; the guy was an amazing performer. Great show (shook/slapped hands with my better half while traipsing up the side steps of the stage). As far as 'changed the landscape' went however, while Jacko was a great pop tunester and a gifted performer...he never really moved the pop cultural needle in the manner of the Beatles.
The Beatles will forever be the 4 most overrated white people in the history of this planet
the amount of bands better than them is staggering.Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Well, that's a bit like calling Roger Bannister overrated, you know. You have to start somewhere. Beatles popularized the very concept of a band. And having done so, they also paved the way for artists to assert their independence and break out of the shackles of labels. By themselves, none of them were the greatest of players or singers (though I'd argue McCartney was certainly a great bassist) but they didn't have to be to break new ground like no other band has since then. Obviously a lot of bands have better singers and players than them but nobody said that was the point of the Beatles.The Beatles will forever be the 4 most overrated white people in the history of this planet
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Oh, but as for Christgau, why does he count anyway? He is a terribly biased critic who has very little knowledge of music by his own admission. His hot takes sound witty but that doesn't make them worthy of paying attention to. And don't get me started on his stridently nativist impulse which made him look at any 'import' (read British and other European bands or artists) with entirely unwarranted suspicion.
gn
G.O.A.T.
donquijote
G.O.A.T.
That Super Trouper vocals was a disgrace. I know they are kids but still..
Larry Duff
Legend
Ray Davies
