ForehandRF
Legend
What do you think ? 
Has Federer reached a higher level on indoor hardcourts than on grass ?
- Thread starter ForehandRF
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
N to the O.
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Yea.. Hes lost multiple Wimbledon finals and to Nadal/Nole in matches, he really had no business losing since hes superior to both on grass (For those saying he was "old" in 2014-2015/2019 he was good enough to get to the finals and beat Nadal en route and players don't age nearly as quickly in tennis now as they did 30 plus years ago) .. When he was the favorite indoors he generally won it. When he was (Or should have been) the favorite on grass, many times he lost it
ForehandRF
Legend
ForehandRF
Legend
Fed wasn't the favorite in the 2015 and 2019 Wimbledon Finals though
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Fed wasn't the favorite in the 2015 and 2019 Wimbledon Finals though
He should have been because he was a better grass court player than Djokovic And he was playing good enough tennis to get to the finals. He also played better during the 2019 Match overrall than Djoker did. . But Sure enough he sees Djokovic and lays an egg.. Fed is an egg layer
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
I mean he has a stupendously great peak on both surfaces, and it's the same player on both surfaces, so I'm not sure if there's much difference.
Fed's low slice is that much more effective on grass compared to a HC. and IMO he reads the bounce off the grass as well as anyone in history, which makes his skills on grass a bit more rare than his indoor skills (which are also extremely rare). His peak returning on grass was unthinkably good.
I generally think the peaks are about equal but lean towards grass if forced to choose. Grass~indoor HC~outdoor HC > clay would probably be my general order, allowing for the fact that his absolute peak on Hamburg/Madrid clay was also quite good, and his general clay peak would look a lot better if not for one Rafael Nadal.
Fed's low slice is that much more effective on grass compared to a HC. and IMO he reads the bounce off the grass as well as anyone in history, which makes his skills on grass a bit more rare than his indoor skills (which are also extremely rare). His peak returning on grass was unthinkably good.
I generally think the peaks are about equal but lean towards grass if forced to choose. Grass~indoor HC~outdoor HC > clay would probably be my general order, allowing for the fact that his absolute peak on Hamburg/Madrid clay was also quite good, and his general clay peak would look a lot better if not for one Rafael Nadal.
ForehandRF
Legend
Fiero425
Legend
Good analysis
Fed's best chances to win were on fast indoor courts like Paris and the YEC! He extended Nole or actually won a RR match, but never finished the deals after 2015!
BVSlam
Professional
Actually, Fed's indoor resume, while great, I feel gets a little overrated now and then. People sometimes act like he has been unbeatable there, but that's not true at all. He has won Madrid once during the time it was indoors and Paris once in all his appearances, which granted he didn't play during his peak years but still. He did win four WTF's in indoor conditions and laid down some beatings on Nadal and Djokovic now and then, but Nadal is not an amazing force indoors and he either lost to Djokovic or beat him in a RR for an, in the end, insignificant win in terms of the tournament result for him. I think part of that is the timing of the tournaments and nobody being insanely dominant (aside from Djokovic and his endless Paris titles), but still. He did win a lot of Basel titles and some other smaller titles, but to be fair a lot of those weren't supposed to be difficult for him to win.
I think having won 8 Wimbledon titles and dominating a lot of those tournaments, beating Nadal 3 out of 4 times with excellent tennis, beating 2012 Djokovic playing amazingly, straight setting his way into the 2015 final against strong opponents at 33 and winning the title in straight sets in 2017 at 35 are just a notch above his indoor performances, as great as his beatdowns of Djokovic in 2010/2019 and the Nadal beatdown in 2011 were (although he was given a lot of room to play as well as he did in those matches). And his losses to Djokovic at Wimbledon are easily explained. In 2014, at 32, he put up a great fight and got fairly close to winning while still finding a consistent playing level after 2013 and the racket switch against a relatively young Djokovic, in 2015 Djokovic just played incredible yet Fed still had some great chances in the first half of the match, and in 2019 he was 37 (almost 38) and had match points against Djokovic who at that point was holding three of the four slams. One good serve or a slight miss from Djokovic and the story would have been 100% different, so I feel holding that result against him just disrespects his amazing fight in that match to even get to those match points.
I think having won 8 Wimbledon titles and dominating a lot of those tournaments, beating Nadal 3 out of 4 times with excellent tennis, beating 2012 Djokovic playing amazingly, straight setting his way into the 2015 final against strong opponents at 33 and winning the title in straight sets in 2017 at 35 are just a notch above his indoor performances, as great as his beatdowns of Djokovic in 2010/2019 and the Nadal beatdown in 2011 were (although he was given a lot of room to play as well as he did in those matches). And his losses to Djokovic at Wimbledon are easily explained. In 2014, at 32, he put up a great fight and got fairly close to winning while still finding a consistent playing level after 2013 and the racket switch against a relatively young Djokovic, in 2015 Djokovic just played incredible yet Fed still had some great chances in the first half of the match, and in 2019 he was 37 (almost 38) and had match points against Djokovic who at that point was holding three of the four slams. One good serve or a slight miss from Djokovic and the story would have been 100% different, so I feel holding that result against him just disrespects his amazing fight in that match to even get to those match points.
Wasn’t the YEC played at the O2 arena a fairly slow court?Fed's best chances to win were on fast indoor courts like Paris and the YEC! He extended Nole or actually won a RR match, but never finished the deals after 2015!
ghostofMecir
Legend
Because he‘s a once in a lifetime talent.
fOr tHOsE sAYinG hE WaS oLd
He’s still old, and 35-36-37-38-39 year olds don’t defeat younger ATGs at slams. They don’t even play on tour for that matter. How’d Pete do with lesser players such as Hewitt and Safin when Pete was 29-31? Even at 30-31-32 they don’t.
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Fiero425
Legend
Whatever! I guess you totally missed the point trying to make me mistaken or a liar! Thanks BUD!
Your point was sound. Apologies if you felt it brought out the wrong emphasis. Agreed Indoor is a place where Federer thrivesWhatever! I guess you totally missed the point trying to make me mistaken or a liar! Thanks BUD!
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
This line of reasoning needs to die in a Lewsian fire.
ghostofMecir
Legend
I see what you’re saying, but the first few bolded lines I think undersell the high peaks Federer was able to reach indoors where his early ball striking was at its best.
Take a look at the matches Federer played against Djokovic indoors. Federer, old as hell Federer, was able to dominate Djokovic in ways nobody else could. Djokovic usually won some close matches. Federer played matches in which Dj looked helpless.
2019 Tour Finals: Federer‘s Dominance Ratio (DR): 2.08
2018 Paris Masters: Djokovic’s DR: 1.26
2015 Tour Finals: Djokovic‘s DR: 1.28
2015 Tour Finals: Federer’s DR: 1.75
2013 Tour Finals: Djokovic’s DR: 1.11
2013 Paris Masters: Djokovic’s DR: 1.20
2012 Tour Finals: 1.00 DR
2010 Tour Finals: Federer‘s DR: 1.59
2010 Basel: Federer’s DR: 1.14
2009 Basel: Djokovic’s DR: 1.11
i know Nadal isn’t the greatest indoor player but he also routed him a few times as well.
2011 Tour Finals: Federer’s DR: 2.68
2010 Tour Final: Federer’s DR: 1.72
2013 Tour Finals: Nadal’s DR: 1.50
2015 Basel: Federer’s DR: 1.19
As for the last bolded, I see what you’re saying and this is semantics, but A associate the word “fight“ with a struggling player who is clearly outmatched, kind of like Federer versus Murray in 2013 AO semi finals, but in the 2019 Wimby finals, Federer held serve almost every single time he served over 5 long sets with a clearly finished serve that seemed to hit line after line, broke Djokovic more times than Djokovic even got into Federer’s serve games, got into more serve games, won more serve points, won more return points, hit more winners…and threw it away.
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Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Some of you Fed fans have such insanely high standards.
That semifinal he played against Murray in 2015 was one of the best matches he ever played at Wimbledon.
SamprasisGOAT
Hall of Fame
It’s not in his top 10 Wimbledon best level matches.Some of you Fed fans have such insanely high standards.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
It should be.
Not even close. Putting Murray away is no big deal for Federer. British media hyped that performance to the sky to make Murray's loss look less embarrassing. Those who watched Federer during 2004-07 period know it very well.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Fed beat Djoko in the 2010 YEC semi.
and the RR loss he handed to Djoko in 19 resulted in Djoko's elimination and not getting to YE#1 that year. I'd say that's a win that matters as well.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Some of you Fed fans have such insanely high standards.
Here's a list of those which can clearly shown to be better:
1. Wim 03 SF vs Roddick
2. Wim 03 F vs Scud
3. Wim 04 2R vs Falla
4. Wim 04 3R vs Johansson
5. Wim 05 SF vs Hewitt
6. Wim 05 F vs Roddick
7. Wim 06 1R vs Gasquet
8. Wim 06 4R vs Berdych
9. Wim 06 QF vs Ancic
10. Wim 09 SF vs Haas
Wim 04 QF vs Hewitt, Wim 04 SF vs Grosjean, Wim 06 F vs Nadal etc. are matches IMO better, but more arguable.
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Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
2003-2015
In 13 years he made the tour finals 10 times and won 6 of them
2003-2015
In 13 years he made the Wimbledon finals 10 times and won 7 of them
Close enough but Federer has been a bit more dominant on grass.
In 13 years he made the tour finals 10 times and won 6 of them
2003-2015
In 13 years he made the Wimbledon finals 10 times and won 7 of them
Close enough but Federer has been a bit more dominant on grass.
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
Djokovic exposed Federer's mental weakness, that is true.
In an ideal world Federer would be a 12 time wimbledon champion who won wimbledon from 2003 till 2009 and then 2012, 2014, 2015, 2017 and 2019.
Pheasant
Legend
Fed on grass for sure. The numbers don’t lie.
65 straight wins on grass destroys 2nd place Borg’s record by more than 50%. #3 won less than half of Fed’s 65 straight. . Fed lost one match in 7 years on grass(72-1 from 2003-2009).
Fed blocking back 140 mph serves on grass during his peak 2003-2006 time frame was a thing of beauty. His net play was exciting to watch . The slice backhand was poetry in motion.
65 straight wins on grass destroys 2nd place Borg’s record by more than 50%. #3 won less than half of Fed’s 65 straight. . Fed lost one match in 7 years on grass(72-1 from 2003-2009).
Fed blocking back 140 mph serves on grass during his peak 2003-2006 time frame was a thing of beauty. His net play was exciting to watch . The slice backhand was poetry in motion.
Might be Federer just got more nervous because he knows he does not have many more chances to win a grand slam. I remember Navartilova saying as one get's older one gets more desperate becasue you know you won't have many more chances to win. Brad Gilbert in his book said Lendl got less patient as he got older
Fiero425
Legend
I'd like to see how Fed would have handled the old schedule of playing Wimbledon just a week after the French Open! That's what makes Borg's efforts superior to any clown that comes down the pike! That man, with a stick and too tight strings jumped off a FO Final clay wins in 1978, '79, & '80 onto the slick grass of Wimbledon in a week with no warm-up outside hitting a few to defend his title all 3 times, making another final in '81 after winning RG over Lendl only to drop grass final to McEnroe!
I'd like to see how Fed would have handled the old schedule of playing Wimbledon just a week after the French Open! That's what makes Borg's efforts superior to any clown that comes down the pike! That man, with a stick and too tight strings jumped off a FO Final clay wins in 1978, '79, & '80 onto the slick grass of Wimbledon in a week with no warm-up outside hitting a few to defend his title all 3 times, making another final in '81 after winning RG over Lendl only to drop grass final to McEnroe!
I remember Borg saying Federer had it easier than Nadal and him becasue he was transitioning from his weaker surface to his stronger surface
abmk
Bionic Poster
I'd like to see how Fed would have handled the old schedule of playing Wimbledon just a week after the French Open! That's what makes Borg's efforts superior to any clown that comes down the pike! That man, with a stick and too tight strings jumped off a FO Final clay wins in 1978, '79, & '80 onto the slick grass of Wimbledon in a week with no warm-up outside hitting a few to defend his title all 3 times, making another final in '81 after winning RG over Lendl only to drop grass final to McEnroe!
RG 78 finished on 11th June and Wim 78 started on 26th June
RG 79 finished on 10th June and Wim 79 started on 25th June
RG 80 finished on 8th June and Wim 80 started on 23rd June
Bjorn Borg | Player Activity | ATP Tour | Tennis
Official tennis match records of Bjorn Borg including results, opponents, match stats. Filter by year and tournament.
www.atptour.com
So it was 2 weeks.
Having said that obviously Borg's channel slams are superior to that of Fed, Nadal, Djokovic since transition was significantly bigger from clay to grass back then.
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
Yes, after Wimbledon 2007 final I think Federer had jokingly said that his time is running out before Nadal starts winning everything. These comment shows what his mindset was, he felt inferior and helpless in his own mind every passing year vs Nadal. A proud and confident person will never praise his rival like this because his self belief would never allow him to do so. That is one of the reasons why Novak nowadays says that he is the best (he said this after winning wimbledon vs Berretini), that belief he has that he can tackle Fedal without a doubt. He always had this belief right from his early years, confidence in your abilities is everything for an athlete, it shapes the outcomes your results too. Everyone laughed at Novak when he said he could beat Nadal on clay in 2006 but time proved that he was right.
A Federer with more belief would have sorted out Nadal much earlier and would not have gone down to Novak until 2015, I guess that is what has made Novak the GOAT, those crucial years of 2010-2016 set the tone for the Fedovic rivalry, rest of it is just a footnote.
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
I'd like to see how Fed would have handled the old schedule of playing Wimbledon just a week after the French Open! That's what makes Borg's efforts superior to any clown that comes down the pike! That man, with a stick and too tight strings jumped off a FO Final clay wins in 1978, '79, & '80 onto the slick grass of Wimbledon in a week with no warm-up outside hitting a few to defend his title all 3 times, making another final in '81 after winning RG over Lendl only to drop grass final to McEnroe!
Impressive for sure.
But an alternative argument can be made that Borg's achievements on grass might have been a bit cut short if Sampras & Mcenroe peak at the same time as Borg peaked, genuine serve and volleyers caused problems for Borg as he did not have Nadal's bazooka of a racquet in his time.
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If Djokovic was so mentally strong, how do you explain his grand slam losses in 2012-2014, where he only won one grand slam each year.
I remember Roddick saying after Wimbledon 2009 that Federer, becasue of how he makes the game look easy, does not get enough credit for how he toughs it out.. He had problems reading my serve for my first time ever but he hung on
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Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
Because of 2 established ATGs from the previous decade that made life tough for him along with his own generation.
He had some mental lapses in 12-14, should not have had that at his peak, I agree.
He is mentally the strongest, but he too has had ups and downs as he is human.
Fiero425
Legend
We're all guilty of expectations that are out of this world! These Big 3 have done things past players or future players may never achieve! It''s just not fair really!
SamprasisGOAT
Hall of Fame
If you added Halle then it’s a blood bath
ForehandRF
Legend
The poll is surprisingly close
ForehandRF
Legend
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
All the votes in the poll are wrong, mine included. After I realized that, I wanted to change my vote, but I couldn’t.The poll is surprisingly close
I have no choice other than demanding that this thread is deleted immediately.
ForehandRF
Legend
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Fed has never missed championship points on indoor hardcourts.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
It may happen if Fed receives a wildcard for Wimbledon 2023 (he will be reappearing at the tour with zero points and obviously unseeded), and Wimbledon draw goes nuts as it did when they scheduled Isner - Mahut for the second consecutive time.
trouble is it will be an old,past it Fed
BVSlam
Professional
I definitely agree that Fed has tons of great indoor wins and performances. Especially the ones against Djokovic and Nadal, and the way he did it, were often fantastic. But my point is that I do feel like a couple of those were partly because it was best of 3 sets and either Djokovic or Nadal didn't play great. That could be purely because of Fed's play and in some instances that was definitely true (2010 WTF against both come to mind, although Nadal played pretty well in that final I think). But then you have 2011 against Nadal, don't get me wrong; Fed played perfect. But I also saw Nadal with a very stiff forehand he had during that part of the season and no backhand, hitting both shots very short all the time. The Djoko 2015 RR win was very nice, but he ended up losing the final against Djokovic in straight sets anyway. Djoko 2019 was amazing, I agree there as well, but Djoko looked very uninspired from the start. And it was Fed's only really good performance in that tournament.
Wimbledon, I agree that he was more dominant in his service games in the 2019 final compared to the AO 2013 semifinal, which I think is a good comparison you made. But I think that argument actually helps the case of grass over indoor rather than hurt it. Him throwing it away doesn't mean it wasn't a huge fight considering the circumstances; he was not the favorite for that match considering Djokovic was holding three slam titles, including the previous Wimbledon, and Fed was 38, hadn't done that amazingly since winning AO 2018 and had lost all slam matches against Djokovic since Wimbledon 2012. I also agree he should have won that match, but throwing it away doesn't say anything about hos grass prowess vs. his indoor prowess, just that he was too nervous to finish the deal at 8-7 fifth set in a slam final against Djokovic. I think to even get to that point proves how amazingly good he is on grass and that his dominant service games in that final and slicing + movement show that. I'm honestly sure it was much easier for him to be clutch in a 2019 RR match at the WTF against Djokovic when the stakes weren't nearly as high for him personally, which was also best of 3 and not best of 5, and that it wasn't just because it was indoors.
And by his indoor resumé being overrated, I really only mean the word literally. Fed is often portrayed as being insanely dominant indoors and that he sweeps the indoor season year after year, which isn't true. That doesn't take away how good he is there, and it's easily in his top 2 best playing conditions along with grass, but I feel grass is slightly above indoor HC.
BVSlam
Professional
The 2010 semi is the one I forgot to mention in my post, you are right about that. I wanted to say "since 2010" at that part, because that's when Djokovic really came into his own, but the tail end of 2010 was already a well-playing Djokovic. That was a great win and fantastic performance for Fed and he had played that well all tournament.
The RR loss he handed to Djoko in 2019 was a very nice and unexpected beating, so the satisfaction must have been high for Fed, but I don't agree that it mattered to him so much in terms of the tournament result. He already lost to Thiem and got straight-setted by Tsits in the semi's afterwards. The YE#1 I'd say was significant more for Nadal and Djokovic rather than himself. It did end in Djokovic losing that tournament, but that's it. It didn't win him the title and it wasn't a slam win either to compensate (see RG 2011 SF and Wimb 2019 SF).
D
Deleted member 779124
Guest
Were would you put the W 2007 final? I feel like beating Nadal in that form and being the toughest matchup for Federer has to gain some points.
SamprasisGOAT
Hall of Fame
He never choked in his prime years though did he? You know those 03-07 years. One of the mentally toughest of all time
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