Better Player: Davydenko or Nalbandian?

Deleted member 792641 · Jul 20, 2022

Not most talented, better overall player. So, work ethic and mental are included.

Nalbandian has better slam results but Davydenko was consistently ranked higher than him and has more masters.

Both have a year end title. Davydenko was awful against Federer, but had a winning H2H against Nadal. Nalbandian was decent against Federer, at 8-11, but was 3-11 post-2003. He didn’t do much of note against Djokovic or Nadal

Nalbandian has 11 career titles. Davydenko has 21

metsman · Jul 20, 2022

Nalbandian's best runs were probably a little bit better, but Davydenko has a bit more quantity I suppose.

Nadal>>>>>Federer · Jul 20, 2022

give me peak fat dave

Third Serve · Jul 20, 2022

Davy didn’t vulture a YEC

Deleted member 792641 · Jul 20, 2022

Third Serve said:
Davy didn’t vulture a YEC

I can tell this is sarcasm but I don’t really understand why. Didn’t they both beat a good version of Federer to win their titles? (Davydenko in SF and Nalbandian in F)

Both their wins seem strong to me

Kralingen · Jul 20, 2022

LetWinner II said:
I can tell this is sarcasm but I don’t really understand why. Didn’t they both beat a good version of Federer to win their titles? (Davydenko in SF and Nalbandian in F)

Both their wins seem strong to me

Nalbandian beat an ailing Anklerer, he deserves credit for his level but that was very very far from peak Fed of 2005.

travlerajm · Jul 20, 2022

POG LB Dave (not Yonex Dave) wins this.

Visionary · Jul 20, 2022

metsman said:
Nalbandian's best runs were probably a little bit better, but Davydenko has a bit more quantity I suppose.

more consistency I suppose

Third Serve · Jul 20, 2022

LetWinner II said:
I can tell this is sarcasm but I don’t really understand why. Didn’t they both beat a good version of Federer to win their titles? (Davydenko in SF and Nalbandian in F)

Both their wins seem strong to me

YEC 2005 was a seriously depleted field that lacked basically every top hard court player from that season (yes I know YEC 2005 was on carpet courts but whatever). Safin, Hewitt, and Roddick were out injured, and Agassi pulled out after one RR match. Nadal, the #2, was also injured as well and sat out the tournament. Federer himself was still recovering from an ankle injury which had forced him to miss the indoor season and he had been on crutches just two weeks before. Fortunately, Fraud had a comfy draw which included Gaston Gaudio playing a truly god-awful semifinal. Nalbandian’s draw was also quite favorable except for the Fed RR. Fed was very obviously struggling with movement problems in the final and basically died after narrowly eking out the first two sets. He put up a valiant effort to make the fifth set close but Nalbandian’s edge in physicality (yes, Krispy Kreme Dave had the edge in physicality) carried him. Obviously I’m exaggerating as Nalbandian did produce a solid overall level but it was a meme tournament that placed an unfortunate cap on a season with lots of strong competitors.

Deleted member 792641 · Jul 20, 2022

Third Serve said:
YEC 2005 was a seriously depleted field that lacked basically every top hard court player from that season (yes I know YEC 2005 was on carpet courts but whatever). Safin, Hewitt, and Roddick were out injured, and Agassi pulled out after one RR match. Nadal, the #2, was also injured as well and sat out the tournament. Federer himself was still recovering from an ankle injury which had forced him to miss the indoor season and he had been on crutches just two weeks before. Fortunately, Fraud had a comfy draw which included Gaston Gaudio playing a truly god-awful semifinal. Nalbandian’s draw was also quite favorable except for the Fed RR. Fed was very obviously struggling with movement problems in the final and basically died after narrowly eking out the first two sets. He put up a valiant effort to make the fifth set close but Nalbandian’s edge in physicality (yes, Krispy Kreme Dave had the edge in physicality) carried him. Obviously I’m exaggerating as Nalbandian did produce a solid overall level but it was a meme tournament that placed an unfortunate cap on a season with lots of strong competitors.

oh, so it was an exho

Third Serve · Jul 20, 2022

LetWinner II said:
oh, so it was an exho

that’d be the tl;dr yeah

BillKid · Jul 21, 2022

LetWinner II said:
Nalbandian has 11 career titles. Davydenko has 21

No need to split hairs.
Nalbandian was a great player and he may have underachieved, but he tends to be overrated IMO. I acknowledge that he had better results in slam, so at the end it depends on what you value the most. In terms of tennis level, they were close.

Tennfan123 · Jul 21, 2022

Nalbandian. I thought they'd both retired?

Keizer · Jul 21, 2022

Peak Nalbandian is tough for Davydenko, or anyone outside Big 3 in that generation really, to beat.

DSH · Jul 21, 2022

Nalbandian should have been Federer's "Djokovic", unfortunately it wasn't.

Kralingen · Jul 21, 2022

DSH said:
Nalbandian should have been Federer's "Djokovic", unfortunately it wasn't.

That’s Safin, Nalbandian was not ever gonna be that good

DSH · Jul 21, 2022

Kralingen said:
That’s Safin, Nalbandian was not ever gonna be that good

Safin was older than Federer; Nalbandian was a few months younger than the Swiss. He had a better chance of being competitive against him than the Russian.

NatF · Jul 21, 2022

DSH said:
Safin was older than Federer; Nalbandian was a few months younger than the Swiss. He had a better chance of being competitive against him than the Russian.

So being older is a disadvantage?

Kralingen · Jul 21, 2022

DSH said:
Safin was older than Federer; Nalbandian was a few months younger than the Swiss. He had a better chance of being competitive against him than the Russian.

He was older by exactly one year, are you suggesting Nadal doesn’t have a chance of being competitive vs Djokovic because he’s a year older ?

DSH · Jul 21, 2022

NatF said:
So being older is a disadvantage?

Only when the level is similar between those two players; but, most of the time, the player of higher quality prevails over his younger counterpart.

The Guru · Jul 21, 2022

Kralingen said:
That’s Safin, Nalbandian was not ever gonna be that good

The Safin obsession is exceedingly strange to me. He was a closed court ball basher with little variety which is typically the type of player the people who love Safin hate. I mean the dude could obviously play but he has the worst career of the Rod/Hew/Saf trio imo but he gets the most hype by far. Yes I know it's because of his "peak" but did we see this peak enough to say it wasn't a redlining anomaly more than a peak. It's like calling W 04 first set peak Roddick like he was able to replicate that level with any regularity.

DSH · Jul 21, 2022

Kralingen said:
He was older by exactly one year, are you suggesting Nadal doesn’t have a chance of being competitive vs Djokovic because he’s a year older ?

No, you are misunderstanding what I say; and Nadal has no excuse for not winning at least one set on hard courts against the Serb in all those years.
And who defends this ignominy is a fanatic.

Herald · Jul 21, 2022

Davydenko worked hard at least

spottishwood · Jul 21, 2022

Do we not have Former Players forum anyomre?

NatF · Jul 21, 2022

The Guru said:
The Safin obsession is exceedingly strange to me. He was a closed court ball basher with little variety which is typically the type of player the people who love Safin hate. I mean the dude could obviously play but he has the worst career of the Rod/Hew/Saf trio imo but he gets the most hype by far. Yes I know it's because of his "peak" but did we see this peak enough to say it wasn't a redlining anomaly more than a peak. It's like calling W 04 first set peak Roddick like he was able to replicate that level with any regularity.

Safin actually came to net a fair bit and had just about every shot. He won two slams and five masters in what was a career truncated by injury, it certainly wasn't a redlining anomoly IMO. The guys wins at the AO in 2004-2005 were seriously legit, plus some of his Paris wins and that win over PETE.

President · Jul 21, 2022

NatF said:
Safin actually came to net a fair bit and had just about every shot. He won two slams and five masters in what was a career truncated by injury, it certainly wasn't a redlining anomoly IMO. The guys wins at the AO in 2004-2005 were seriously legit, plus some of his Paris wins and that win over PETE.

His forehand was trash technically for such a good player though. He could make it work when he was playing well, and his serve and backhand compensated, but I think that, along with his injuries, is the reason he was so inconsistent.

NatF · Jul 21, 2022

President said:
His forehand was trash technically for such a good player though. He could make it work when he was playing well, and his serve and backhand compensated, but I think that, along with his injuries, is the reason he was so inconsistent.

What were the technical issues with his forehand?

Herald · Jul 21, 2022

The Guru said:
The Safin obsession is exceedingly strange to me. He was a closed court ball basher with little variety which is typically the type of player the people who love Safin hate. I mean the dude could obviously play but he has the worst career of the Rod/Hew/Saf trio imo but he gets the most hype by far. Yes I know it's because of his "peak" but did we see this peak enough to say it wasn't a redlining anomaly more than a peak. It's like calling W 04 first set peak Roddick like he was able to replicate that level with any regularity.

The obsession is strange and more than a little sad, but Safin's level did come out enough times for us to say it wasn't anomalous.
The Wimbledon 04 Roddick final worship is much sadder and more delusional. Hyping a player's hypothetical level based off of not a match, but a SET is an all time low in tennis analysis. What's next? Games? Tiebreakers?

Zoid · Jul 21, 2022

Nalbandian had better strokes and court craft, but Davy had better movement. Both had underpowered serves.

I'll take Davydenko.

Third Serve · Jul 21, 2022

The Guru said:
The Safin obsession is exceedingly strange to me. He was a closed court ball basher with little variety which is typically the type of player the people who love Safin hate. I mean the dude could obviously play but he has the worst career of the Rod/Hew/Saf trio imo but he gets the most hype by far. Yes I know it's because of his "peak" but did we see this peak enough to say it wasn't a redlining anomaly more than a peak. It's like calling W 04 first set peak Roddick like he was able to replicate that level with any regularity.

He did replicate that level across three different Slam tournaments. I'd say that's enough to move him beyond "redlining anomaly". He did this in several Masters events too particularly his Paris runs which I'm surprised don't get mentioned that often. Given his career was quite truncated due to injuries sustained in 2003 and in 2005-2009, I'd say we have a good sample size to confirm that he wasn't just a one-off. Obviously he wasn't very consistent but at times he could definitely replicate his top level.

Kralingen · Jul 21, 2022

The Guru said:
The Safin obsession is exceedingly strange to me. He was a closed court ball basher with little variety which is typically the type of player the people who love Safin hate. I mean the dude could obviously play but he has the worst career of the Rod/Hew/Saf trio imo but he gets the most hype by far. Yes I know it's because of his "peak" but did we see this peak enough to say it wasn't a redlining anomaly more than a peak. It's like calling W 04 first set peak Roddick like he was able to replicate that level with any regularity.

Uhhhhh

his peak level took HC Slams from a good Sampras and a peak Federer. His peak level got him to #1, longer than Nalby or Roddick. He performed well on multiple surfaces and had an insane indoor run that cannot be put down to a hot streak.

Roddick’s best win in a Slam is what? Seriously what is it?

Nalbandian’s best win in a Slam is what? Pre prime Federer? No one gives Tsonga credit for beating ‘09-10 Djokovic bc once Novak entered his prime it was curtains for Jo. Same with Nalbandian and Federer. His best runs ended in choking a 2 set lead to Roddick and Baghdatis.

Safin on the other hand demonstrated elite aggressive returning ability, outplayed Fed and Sampras in Slams, and was by far the most unlucky with injury out of the 3 as well.

The Guru · Jul 21, 2022

NatF said:
Safin actually came to net a fair bit and had just about every shot. He won two slams and five masters in what was a career truncated by injury, it certainly wasn't a redlining anomoly IMO. The guys wins at the AO in 2004-2005 were seriously legit, plus some of his Paris wins and that win over PETE.

Well I'm not saying it was like a 09 Dasco once in a lifetime performance but that it was exceedingly rare that you saw Safin perform at an ATG level as would be expected for a guy of his stature. I don't know that his peak is all that much better than Hew/Rod (it's better but not worlds apart IMO) and it was like a once a year type thing. And I think you're being very generous to Safin here on variety. He wasn't completely devoid of other skills but he was essentially just a closed court ball basher. A great one obviously but he didn't do anything else at a high level IMO.

Kralingen · Jul 21, 2022

Safin’s 4th best win at a Slam (‘04 Agassi) is better than any of Roddick Nalbandian or Hewitt’s wins lol, except for maybe Hewitt v Sampras ‘01.

RS · Jul 21, 2022

The Guru said:
Well I'm not saying it was like a 09 Dasco once in a lifetime performance but that it was exceedingly rare that you saw Safin perform at an ATG level as would be expected for a guy of his stature. I don't know that his peak is all that much better than Hew/Rod (it's better but not worlds apart IMO) and it was like a once a year type thing. And I think you're being very generous to Safin here on variety. He wasn't completely devoid of other skills but he was essentially just a closed court ball basher. A great one obviously but he didn't do anything else at a high level IMO.

Safin had a better peak level than Roddick in 3/4 slams and the YEC. Without the injuries a better player for sure.

The Guru · Jul 21, 2022

Kralingen said:
Safin’s 4th best win at a Slam (‘04 Agassi) is better than any of Roddick Nalbandian or Hewitt’s wins lol, except for maybe Hewitt v Sampras ‘01.

Does Hewitt over Fed at RLA for DC count

I'd throw 05 Rod in there for Lleyton too. Plus Lleyton didn't end up losing to Johansson in a slam final in his run.

President · Jul 21, 2022

NatF said:
What were the technical issues with his forehand?

Very inconsistent racquet head speed and (IMO) a weird racquet head drop. Not enough topspin for how hard he often wanted to hit the ball and his timing was very often off. Like I said, he was a great player with an excellent serve and one of the best backhands ever. But he could have been even better if he had even Davydenko or Ferrers forehand technique IMO, let alone Fed or Nadal

Third Serve · Jul 21, 2022

RS said:
Safin had a better peak level than Roddick in all 3 non clay slams and the YEC. Without the injuries a better player for sure.

do you mean non-grass?

The Guru · Jul 21, 2022

RS said:
Safin had a better peak level than Roddick in all 3 non clay slams and the YEC. Without the injuries a better player for sure.

Wimbledon? Seriously?

RS · Jul 21, 2022

The Guru said:
Wimbledon? Seriously?

Lol writing error.

Third Serve · Jul 21, 2022

sounds like a thread for metsman

Russeljones · Jul 21, 2022

Kralingen said:
Nalbandian beat an ailing Anklerer, he deserves credit for his level but that was very very far from peak Fed of 2005.

Nalbandian's level cannot be questioned in this regard due to the obvious ability on display in the 2007 Madrid Masters.

RS · Jul 21, 2022

The Guru said:
Does Hewitt over Fed at RLA for DC count I'd throw 05 Rod in there for Lleyton too. Plus Lleyton didn't end up losing to Johansson in a slam final in his run.

Peak Roddick vs Peak Hewitt 10 matches at the USO?

RS · Jul 21, 2022

Safin probably has about 4 slams with the bad injury luck.

10 masters and maybe a YEC.

Kralingen · Jul 21, 2022

The Guru said:
Does Hewitt over Fed at RLA for DC count I'd throw 05 Rod in there for Lleyton too. Plus Lleyton didn't end up losing to Johansson in a slam final in his run.

‘00 Pete, ‘05 Fed, ‘04 Agassi still better than those though.

also Safin dismantled Hewitt in ‘02 Paris which was Bo5

NatF · Jul 21, 2022

The Guru said:
Well I'm not saying it was like a 09 Dasco once in a lifetime performance but that it was exceedingly rare that you saw Safin perform at an ATG level as would be expected for a guy of his stature. I don't know that his peak is all that much better than Hew/Rod (it's better but not worlds apart IMO) and it was like a once a year type thing. And I think you're being very generous to Safin here on variety. He wasn't completely devoid of other skills but he was essentially just a closed court ball basher. A great one obviously but he didn't do anything else at a high level IMO.

He came to net a lot more frequently than you're giving him credit for, even if he was primarily a baseliner. I do think you're being overly harsh, Safin had a lot of physical gifts and good technique and feel on the volleys too. As for it's frequency I don't think that's necessarily important considering his lifestyle and injuries. He wasn't commited enough in his youth and then suffered an injury that effectively ended his career as a top player.

Kralingen said:
Safin’s 4th best win at a Slam (‘04 Agassi) is better than any of Roddick Nalbandian or Hewitt’s wins lol, except for maybe Hewitt v Sampras ‘01.

What's his third best win?

TearTheRoofOff · Jul 21, 2022

Third Serve said:
sounds like a thread for metsman

Now that Safin is being bandied around, @metsman is very much required.

NatF · Jul 21, 2022

The Guru said:
Does Hewitt over Fed at RLA for DC count I'd throw 05 Rod in there for Lleyton too. Plus Lleyton didn't end up losing to Johansson in a slam final in his run.

Kuerten win in Davis Cup was pretty good, though for level of play none of these guys were as good as 04'Agassi at the AO.

RS · Jul 21, 2022

AO - 9-1 Safin
RG - 6-4 Davy
Wim - 8-2 Safin
USO - 8-2 Safin

Kralingen · Jul 21, 2022

NatF said:
What's his third best win?

The combo of beating ‘98 Agassi and defending champ Guga back to back in his first Slam ever at Roland Garros

ok maybe that doesn’t count

The Guru · Jul 21, 2022

RS said:
Lol writing error.

Well yeah I agree Safin blows Rod's HC peak out of the water but Rod's best surface isn't HC now is it.

Better Player: Davydenko or Nalbandian?

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