What’s wrong with what Rafa said about Federer v Djokovic?

mahatma

Hall of Fame
Very uncontroversial opinion, and probably carries extra weight given who it is coming from. Nadal saw more of the best players of this generation up close in big moments than anyone. He is not speaking with outsized authority. He is an authority.

No one got a closer view of Federer in full flight at the height of his powers than Nadal. When Federer was at his peak, Nadal was the only player who could consistently push Federer far enough to expose the full spectrum of his game and see how he reacted when challenged up close.

Nadal literally bullied Federer till 2017. Apart from a few early matches and some hard court battles, result was almost for everyone to see.

It was some 23-9 or something - their h2h before 2017. Lol for a rivalry.

Rivalry is where things are even and not so skewed.
 

uscwang

Hall of Fame
It’s his opinion. I think he summed it up perfectly and in perfect “get to the point” Rafa style.

It’s also an opinion shared by tens of millions of people like me (if not more).

It doesn’t subtract from Novak’s records at all.

Novak fans who can’t live with it should try living with “40-15”!

I’m sure you wouldn’t make that trade. You’ve got the clutch record holder. Why worry that much about people’s opinions?

Anyway - it doesn’t make fans - or Novak - look any better when they get in a tizzy about it. Better to let it be.

Just between Federer and Nadal, it is hardly a secret who the alpha male is. The obvious question for Nadal is, but you beat Federer so bad, and so what are you really trying to say? That you got high, emotionally, seeing Federer across the net?
 

Federev

Legend
he tried to put nole down. Not at all same to what novak said 13 years ago. Novak also said the same about Roger many a times. When he was BEHIND them.

Now there is no mystery. Fed retired. Nadal in a few tournaments time.

I still don’t understand what you’re looking for.

Would it satisfy you if Rafa had just said “Federer’s game draws me the most of any player and who I want to watch more than any player bar none and he is the one who brings the most emotion to the game more than anyone.”

…but he had left Novak out of it?
 
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Federev

Legend
Nadal literally bullied Federer till 2017. Apart from a few early matches and some hard court battles, result was almost for everyone to see.

It was some 23-9 or something - their h2h before 2017. Lol for a rivalry.

Rivalry is where things are even and not so skewed.

This is what I’m talking about. It’s like - It can’t just be Rafa’s opinion - even though it’s probably shared by most fans - it has to be this sinister, self-serving motive.

He can’t just mean what he says.

Somehow Novak HAS to look better by Rafa being devious.

Cant it just be that he’s telling the truth about his opinion of what he sees and why?

By the way - I would think - just my opinion - that pretty much everyone and their gramma - outside of Djokovic fans - knows this is the truth.

But Novak has 24 slams and 406+ weeks, etc…

I think he’ll take some comfort in that! His fans should too.
 
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tex123

Hall of Fame
It’s his opinion. I think he summed it up perfectly and in perfect “get to the point” Rafa style.

It’s also an opinion shared by tens of millions of people like me (if not more).

It doesn’t subtract from Novak’s records at all.

Novak fans who can’t live with it should try living with “40-15”!

I’m sure you wouldn’t make that trade. You’ve got the clutch record holder. Why worry that much about people’s opinions?

Anyway - it doesn’t make fans - or Novak - look any better when they get in a tizzy about it. Better to let it be.

Are Novak fans triggered again? What a surprise!

Stats and vultured Stats don't make a GOAT.
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal is in final year. Could have done better to be a good person at least in his final year. But still not above playing mind game.
Djokovic wants the anthology trilogy of miraculous recoveries in Melbourne, right?
:sneaky:
 

hobl4

Rookie
Again, the way to talk about it is from his own personal stand point. Don’t speak for other “tennis fans” and don’t assume what they might think. That would be trying to create a “narrative”.

And you just did the exact same thing. You said you think for most fans Federer game is the draw. I find that completely untrue.

I find this interview quite nice, Indian wells 2011.

This statement by Novak was clearly to undermine Federer, not to praise Nadal.
 

chjtennis

G.O.A.T.
You can't argue with the stats, I think greatness should be measured by achievements and from that perspective, Djokovic is now the GOAT. However, I also believe Federer was every bit as good a player as Djokovic has been. 6 year gap is not a small handicap for an older player in tennis, and Federer gave hell to Djokovic almost every time they played against each other even at the tail end of his career. Federer successfully competed against much younger greats(Nadal and Djokovic) all the way until the end of his career. Djokovic just doesn't have that player. Closest to big 3 level is Alcaraz and Carlos beat him at his first ever Wimbledon final. Things would've been very different if Djokovic had an all time great who is 5-6 years younger than him.
 
what I find surprising in the article you link to is the mention of the rivalry

if slams are the premier scenario for tennis matches then the Fedal rivalry strikes me as the least developed of the Big 3

no rivalry to speak of at RG.

None at all at the USO

That´s half the slam calendar
I completely agree. The media hyped it up but it wasn’t the most exciting or competitive rivalry of the big 3.
 

pirhaksar

Professional
It's just a reaction to crazy reactions to Nadal's reasonable statements.
I understand the OP. My point is simple by talking about y some fanatical fans do something you only invite more such commentary over and over again. Rafa expressed his personal opinion perfectly legit imho.
 

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
I still don’t understand what you’re looking for.

Would it satisfy you if Rafa had just said “Federer’s game draws me the most of any player and who I want to watch more than any player bar none and he is the one who brings the most emotion to the game more than anyone.”

…but he had left Novak out of it?
I want him to shut his mouth.
He said emotions is ONLY thing that matters. This man can have his own opinions but as we know facts matter feelings don't. He is trying to discredit Djokovic.
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
I want him to shut his mouth.
He said emotions is ONLY thing that matters. This man can have his own opinions but as we know facts matter feelings don't. He is trying to discredit Djokovic.
But didn’t he say its his opinion? He did not say Roger is the greatest. Infact it would then be malicious of him to say that especially when Novak has the records. All he says is that Roger moved him the most especially because he was the guy to beat when he came to the tour. I don’t see an issue but if you do I’d like to hear your views. Also please see the context of the interview. The reporter specifically asks about Novak. Rafa did not volunteer. On the other hand though, probably he could be a little more generous towards praising Novak but I guess that wasn’t the occasion?
 

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Well, you’re entitled to your opinion too.
It's not an opinion that Djokovic holds all the records playing in the same time as Nadal. That's why no knowledgeable tennis analyst claims fedal are goat now. In this era Nole is unarguably the GOAT. And that means not just feelings are most important.
 

Federev

Legend
It's not an opinion that Djokovic holds all the records playing in the same time as Nadal. That's why no knowledgeable tennis analyst claims fedal are goat now. In this era Nole is unarguably the GOAT. And that means not just feelings are most important.

Sure. There is no arguing math.

But I don’t think Rafa said what you are saying. As a fan I completely agree with his perspective in the article.

Maybe if I was a Novak fan I would want him to shut his mouth, but as a fed fan it’s absolutely confirmatory of what I’ve felt since I started watching him.
 

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Sure. There is no arguing math.

But I don’t think Rafa said what you are saying. As a fan I completely agree with his perspective in the article.

Maybe if I was a Novak fan I would want him to shut his mouth, but as a fed fan it’s absolutely confirmatory of what I’ve felt since I started watching him.
He said

He said in the end emotions is what matters.
 

Federev

Legend
He said

He said in the end emotions is what matters.

He was referring to the larger question - and the theme of that section of the interview :

Why was his rivalry w Federer so captivating for people.

Essentially it’s about Federer’s game being aesthetically perfect (according to him) and drawing people - and then the two of them having rivalry that contrasted their opposing styles

He is saying that when it comes to captivating people - what draws people - emotions are the central issue - and for him, Federer’s came captivates like no other.

Now that’s an idea we’ve heard about Federer long before there was a big 3, long before the records,

It was his game that people saw as magic from the start.

That’s the whole point of the article.

Bodo is not saying winning doesn’t matter.

He’s saying - slam record or not - Fed’s game captivates - arguably more than others.

Rafa agrees.
 
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messiahrobins

Hall of Fame
what I find surprising in the article you link to is the mention of the rivalry

if slams are the premier scenario for tennis matches then the Fedal rivalry strikes me as the least developed of the Big 3

no rivalry to speak of at RG.

None at all at the USO

That´s half the slam calendar
How is that different to nadal and djokovic? Their slam matches pretty predictable. Djokovic wins at half and Nadal the other half.
Federer v Djokovic was more interesting really as a match up.
 

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
How is that different to nadal and djokovic? Their slam matches pretty predictable. Djokovic wins at half and Nadal the other half.
Federer v Djokovic was more interesting really as a match up.
Nadal doesn't WINS at half. He barely is holding off by all his physicality to reach there in finals. In last 10 years he made 2 finals there, first time on the back of the easiest draw to the final. So don't try to equate him to the goat. Djokovic is there virtually every year if not for politics and bans etc.
 

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
2-1 open is 2-1 because the clay specialist barely meets Nole there. Or it would have been 4-2 or 5-2 in Nole's favor by now.
 

messiahrobins

Hall of Fame
Truth is Nadal liked Federer's game because of that attackable Backhand lol. Nadal just loved making it a backhand cage.

No such freebies on offer with Novak's.

I too love bullying lesser players in badminton.lol
Nadal 11-7 Djokovic
Nadal 10-4 Federer at Majors.
Why would Nadal make a comment based on who he found it easier to beat when he had a comfortable advantage v both in best of 5 set format. Nadal broke the federer bh down at slams just as he broke Djokovics FH down.
I fail to see the controversy here. Nadal is simply saying he prefers watching Federer style to Djokovic. Most tennis fans like single handed backhand players more aesthetically. Where is the issue?
 

messiahrobins

Hall of Fame
Nadal doesn't WINS at half. He barely is holding off by all his physicality to reach there in finals. In last 10 years he made 2 finals there, first time on the back of the easiest draw to the final. So don't try to equate him to the goat. Djokovic is there virtually every year if not for politics and bans etc.
Nadal at two of the four slams lead Djokovic 10-3.
Djokovic leads Nadal 4-1 at thr other 2.
Its a predictable match up in truth. Both are better than ths otherat haLf the slams.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
How is that different to nadal and djokovic? Their slam matches pretty predictable. Djokovic wins at half and Nadal the other half.
Federer v Djokovic was more interesting really as a match up.
The difference is that they’ve had great matches at all 4 slams. Even at RG, where Nadal reigns supreme.

But it’s true the only really close matchup is that of Fedovic
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Nadal at two of the four slams lead Djokovic 10-3.
Djokovic leads Nadal 4-1 at thr other 2.
Its a predictable match up in truth. Both are better than ths otherat haLf the slams.
Not to sidetrack this debate but Nadal is not better than Novak at half the slams. He’s only better at RG. The 2-1 at USO is not indicative of much given how they’ve met there. At best we can call that a draw
 

messiahrobins

Hall of Fame
Not to sidetrack this debate but Nadal is not better than Novak at half the slams. He’s only better at RG. The 2-1 at USO is not indicative of much given how they’ve met there. At best we can call that a draw
THats not how professional sport works. Is ali v frazier a draw then?
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
The weirdness I find here is that he mentions Novak as a comparison. Why even mention him at all? Did the reporter ask him specifically who he finds more "entertaining" of the 2. It's just weird. He does this all the time publically.
 

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal fans fail to see controversy and their Nadal keeps withdrawing from AO and USO and they still shamelessly parade 11-7

How many withdrawals at AO has it been now? How many Wimby and USO? Can't lose if he don't play. But that means nothing. Let him come to play and then we have some bizzarre records like 15-2 off clay post 2011.
 

messiahrobins

Hall of Fame
The difference is that they’ve had great matches at all 4 slams. Even at RG, where Nadal reigns supreme.

But it’s true the only really close matchup is that of Fedovic
Nadal and Djokovic matches to some wpuld not be seen as great matches as they were slug fests. Many like a contrast in styles.
I am puzzled why federer v djokovic as a rivalry is talked about more. Really baffles me as that was the best rivalry of all time arguably. Borg v mcenroe maybe on a par?
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Nadal and Djokovic matches to some wpuld not be seen as great matches as they were slug fests. Many like a contrast in styles.
I am puzzled why federer v djokovic as a rivalry is talked about more. Really baffles me as that was the best rivalry of all time arguably. Borg v mcenroe maybe on a par?
I get that. And I’ve always thought of the Fedovic rivalry as the one least in the media’s eye yet the closest of the 3. Not sure why.
 

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
I get that. And I’ve always thought of the Fedovic rivalry as the one least in the media’s eye yet the closest of the 3. Not sure why.
Because they didn't make many slam finals. In semis the focus can't be on the absolute best. Even though they were best hard courters in 2008 met in 2 slam semis. So these things are a major factor.
 

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
The thinking is that Rafa is as obsessed with Djokovic as Novak's army of internet lunatics are, and that every single thing that he says is intended as a slight against the man.

That's not to say some of the things he says may not be intended as such, but the fanbase with the worlds greatest persecution complex see every single thing that way.

Most have no comprehension of Federer, his immensity, what he meant to so many, and if someone is to wax lyrical about him they could only be doing it as an insult to Djokovic, because I, the offended, was born yesterday.
 

_phantom

Hall of Fame
He said in the end emotions is what matters.
In sports, that's true. Compare Brian Lara with Chanderpaul.
One thing that i don't understand is more Djokovic wins more his fans become intolerant and insecure. Djokovic has slam record and they should relax but naah that's not enough they want to control every opinion, narrative and want to ascribe all the qualities to him. It seems Djokovic as a tennis player is not enough for them ,they want to venerate him to some Jesus like charector lol.
It's as though they were hoping for a celestial proclamation and everyone to bow before him once he reached 23 slams, placing him beyond the tiniest bit of criticism, direct or imagined, as a person or as a player. Of course that didn't happen and they still don't understand why.
 

uscwang

Hall of Fame
I was thinking a few days ago that Nadal could finally let his racquet talk again.

Oh well, guess let the guy talk who cannot walk.
 

canta_Brian

Hall of Fame
I want him to shut his mouth.
He said emotions is ONLY thing that matters. This man can have his own opinions but as we know facts matter feelings don't. He is trying to discredit Djokovic.
And yet you’re the one getting all emotional. Who hurt you?
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
The weirdness I find here is that he mentions Novak as a comparison. Why even mention him at all? Did the reporter ask him specifically who he finds more "entertaining" of the 2. It's just weird. He does this all the time publically.
Actually yes. The reporter actually starts the interview mentioning Novak. Thats how reporters are. They want you to say things that they can cut and post as headlines.
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
I get that. And I’ve always thought of the Fedovic rivalry as the one least in the media’s eye yet the closest of the 3. Not sure why.
Why? Because the biggest Rafa-Fed matches happened during the TMF days. Its as simple as that. Novak was not battling Fed between 2005 and 2009 for the most part in the big stages of RG and Wimbly. A couple of matches yes but not time after time like Rafa-Fed. The contrast in styles, the stages, the fans…it definitely played its part. And then there were videos, charming ones at that, that I have never seen between Fed and Novak, especially in the late 2000’s.

 

canta_Brian

Hall of Fame
Nadal fans fail to see controversy and their Nadal keeps withdrawing from AO and USO and they still shamelessly parade 11-7

How many withdrawals at AO has it been now? How many Wimby and USO? Can't lose if he don't play. But that means nothing. Let him come to play and then we have some bizzarre records like 15-2 off clay post 2011.
Maybe his injuries are real. The fake kind are easier to recover from
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Nah.

I love that he is disliked by the establishment.
Novak has played 18 years on Tour. He is the leader in Grand Slams and #1. He has his sports drink plastered on the advertising boards all over the tournaments in Australia. He is a gigantic presence on Tour.

He is the establishment. He is the most established and recognized player in the top 100. If he isn’t the establishment by now, that’s on him.
 

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Fedal fans have just become too old and hurt with latest developments. They had huge headstart but never showed required respect to Nole. Same with Nadal here.
 
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