MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Peak Venus Williams
What does greatness mean to you?
- Thread starter Silentchimera
- Start date
Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
In reality, do you acknowledge: Greatness(subjective) = Greatness?
Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
In reality, do you acknowledge: Greatness(subjective) = Greatness? In reality itrium84 thinks: Greatness(subjective) = Greatness(objective). In reality itrium84 thinks: Logical = Illogical."Regarding tennis - I think a plausible argument can be made that Federer’s peak years - 2004-2007 - a four year span, contained the highest quality and most dominant tennis for the most consistent period we’ve ever seen."
It is a plausible argument, not some gibberish and reality denying, like "subjective truth" (popular in this thread). I believe it was greatest display of dominance in tennis history, until 2015/16. I also believe his 2004-2007 is not far behind Novak's 2015/16.
"Even a TTW poll confirmed most people here still this his peak is higher than Novak’s."
Peak gameplay or peak dominance? Evaluating gameplay level between GOATs is highly subjective and extremely prone to personal bias. Otoh, peak dominance can be measured and compared (win%, ATP points, ELO points, titles won, versatility stats,...).
"For me that’s what a GOAT is. Who’s played the best tennis. The highest quality ever for a sustained period."
You speak about peak domination here?
For me, it's not what a GOAT is - but, it's extremely important part of it, beside career titles record, career no1 record and career versatility record.
"I think Fed showed this by playing so well even in the twilight of his prime and post prime in 2010-2012."
1. Fed showed it many more times, before 2010-2012 and after.
2. Imo, Tier1 ATG's prime ends with his last slam final, not before.
"I know this will be argued by Novak fans and maybe others, but that argument has been had in other places so I won’t go around in circles hee."
Of course it will
Not for being total nonsense like OP's subjective truth theory - But for having a good case with reasonable basis.
Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
(Great(subjective) < Greater(subjective) < Greatest(subjective)
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Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
To keep discussion on topic:
The above remains a work in progress.(Updated) This is the reality: (not a Djokovic fan's fantasies!)
This is not a GOAT debate thread, it is a discussion about the meaning of greatness to each individual. This is an example of discussing context (global outreach, era, conditions, competition all relevant context of statistics) that contribute to the whole package for Federer to earn GOAT status (for me). This is only a small fraction of relevant context to me.
My beliefs and opinions of what greatness means are up for debate. This is so I can become greater as an individual. We should not decide our values by popular opinion, but this tells me my belief's and opinions are widely shared (unlike many suggest!). We need to be able to challenge our bias and discuss context.
I decided to google some polls of the greatest sportsmen of all time. This is the first poll I opened and was conducted when Djokovic already had 24 majors. Federer Top 10. Federer is usually Top 10, and as high up as Top 7. He is one of the immortal GOAT sportsmen that ever lived! (let alone tennis!) He is ranked right next to Pele, Lebron, Bo Jackson, Messi, Ronaldo, Usain Bolt, Jesse Owens and a bit below Michael Phelps! Usually little mention of Djokovic or Nadal on many lists of Top 50. (sorry to offend!) Federer transcended tennis to a completely different level of greatness! Djokovic is nowhere near the consensus tennis GOAT. (and never will be!)
If posters want to play with numbers, I have better ones lol. If your only arguments are the numbers, it rules you out automatically! It doesn't matter anyway, numbers alone, clearly do not define sporting greatness, in the minds of the people, the sport exists to serve in the first place! Those who argue otherwise: Wouldn't even have their tennis wiki stats, to cite constantly (without context), if the matches were not relevant context!
Federer has plenty of arguments to still be your tennis GOAT, despite what many would try to have you believe. Apparently, nobody cares about Djokovic's faulty Top 10 wins over 90's gen, faulty ELO stats, CIE majors. (Or Djokovic's supposedly "strong" competition from players older than him that were from Federer's era/generational talent. Players that Federer also played when they were his age, or when they were younger than he was!) Federer clearly had the toughest competition out of the Big 3 (it's extremely difficult to argue otherwise!).
Let's also not forget that Federer built his game to dominate, in a transitional era, where the conditions were changing rapidly! That versatile game with his one-handed backhand won him 11/16 majors in his record peak age stretch and 16/27 majors with a career grand slam in his record prime age stretch.
He managed records like 237 consecutive weeks at No.1, 18/19 consecutive finals, 23 consecutive semis, 36 consecutive QF, 5 straight Wimbledons and US Opens, the second channel slam since Bjorn Borg, 3 majors a year 3 times, all majors finals reached in a year 3 times, 24 straight finals won, 65 and 56 consecutive matches won on grass and hardcourt respectively, 7 consecutive finals won including his first final reached, 4 consecutive finals on his worst surface...(link insane win % during peak/prime stretches) and many more records (that are taking too long to list) and feats during his record prime stretch.
To me, that clearly indicates: Federer has the greatest peak and prime by the numbers! (with context) That's what matters most to me! That's what I saw for myself! I don't ask chatGPT! lol. I don't care very little about weak majors won mid 30's! (much lower level)
Federer had extremely tough competition from younger ATG's when he was old. Federer played tennis from a different planet during his peak! It doesn't matter who you put in front of him lol. He would destroy every field! I love Federer's streak records. They were always his best records to me. This was because they were the most exciting to witness!
His records are simply amazing! This was dominance that has never been seen before. There are different numbers people should look at, besides total major count. That is if they want more than a "Most Insignificant" interpretation of a players career! The absolute fixation with total major count isnt healthy and doesn't do a great sport the justice it deserves.
Federer still won 20 majors! 6 more than the old record he broke! Oldest No.1 at not far off 37 not long after winning his last major, he reached his last final (losing with huge age disadvantage against Djokovic with matchpoints in a lengthy 5 setter) at Wimbledon at almost 38! He dominated his kryptonite Nadal (5yrs younger!) late in his career. He has very strong losing efforts that would easily win majors the last 6 years (He was losing very close matches to Peak Djokovic and Nadal in his post prime/late prime! Huge Age Disadvantage!) Federer is a longevity GOAT contender! I don't need career slams/weeks No.1 over weak fields (lower level is very noticeable!). Federer took his RG the only real chance he had!
Federer set all of these crazy streak/stretch records I listed earlier on at peak and prime age. This is the age that players almost always are at their best. The data shows this hasn't changed in recent times. The best players are aware of the aging curve. They use historical data that is good at predicting future performance based on age. It makes sense to me he didn't win as much, when he started leaving prime age! At this time conditions stabilised to support pure baseliners that were younger than him like Nadal and Djokovic! Both of them strong contenders for 2nd/3rd (for me)
I didn't even talk about Federer's playstyle/character yet! This is probably my favourite thing about Roger! GOAT forehand, majestic one-handed BH, flawless technique, serve not far off Sampras level, GOAT second serve?, GOAT underrated return?, impeccable footwork, athleticism, impeccable volleys/overhead/smash/lob, all court game, incredible speed, endurance, explosiveness, GOAT half volleys, tweeners over Djokovic's head that he applauds...beauty in tennis form! His aura, composure, keeping me constantly up at night in awe (on edge) in/with his matches, the emotion (fans too), his determination, discipline, consistency, crowd always loved him, work ethic, humanity, morality, inspirational, RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE, people lived through Roger and his game (not his stats!), freakish reflexes...
I can't see the mental inferiority to the other Big 3 at all! He plays a high risk/reward game that requires perfect execution (perfect for dominance in changing conditions (versatility). This is totally different to being able to relax into longer rallies... Federer >> Djokovic on Grass, Federer > Djokovic on HC (Prime level tips this to Roger!), Federer > Djokovic on Clay (Prime level tips this to Roger!) (Much, much, more relevant context to discuss!) Until then, get out of here lol. You have 2-3 stats (without context = "most insignificant") (totally laughable!) Ladies and gentlemen, Federer is the tennis GOAT who came from the "strong" era (to me)!
To enter a debate about "GREATNESS": The real definition MUST be used:
GREATNESS(subjective) = GREATNESS! Not fantasy definitions that have opposite meanings! Using: GREATNESS(objective) = insignificance...
Razer
Legend
LOL, a confused poster like you thinks you can "help" people understand something that you yourself lack understanding? You are a troll, thats it, look at the responses on the post, most people have concluded that this is a troll thread by you. Greatness is not at all subjective in this modern world where people dont have the time to indulge in fruitless subjective exercises of IFs and BUTs, in today's world people have clarity with numbers, they just look at numbers and defined greatness. This is the world we live in, so get in sync with the rules of 2024, you are way out of touch.
Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
.
Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
FlyingSaucer
Rookie
No, of course not.
Okay.
Not really. He still had opportunities to play, and the restrictions that were in place that limited his schedule affected him for one year. His stance on the vaccine was a personal one (according to him) and not representative of anything other than that. Further, he has been flithy rich for years, so any admiration on the grounds that he was willing for forgo his livelihood is quite laughable, in my opinion.
The fact that you've said this a few times now indicates that it's a great desire of yours, which is interesting.
sportsfan1
Legend
What's an SA?Rolex tells me that I need to gift the SA a charcuterie board and Christmas presents every year for three years in order to be invited to buy a stainless steel sh*tter
Rolex tells me they will met me buy a Daytona if I give the SA my wife
Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
I believe we need to entertain ourselves and others to become greater. I like your posts.
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Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
Absolutely. I love Bjorn Borg. He gave everything to tennis while he could! All or nothing!
soldat
Rookie
I still think it’s admirable, in the sense that it’s his career and he enjoys playing tennis. Even if it’s only personal, it’s like taking your favorite thing to do and to stop doing it for a year. He stood up for what he believed in and was willing to sacrifice for it, even it meant losing the slam race.
And of course top tennis players are rich and don’t necessarily need the money from the tournaments, but it’s still a person’s career.
The final thing is Novak was either ranked 1 or 2 at the time.
I think Alcaraz said it best, if you want to be the best you have to play and beat the best. Not letting Djokovic play will forever be an injustice on those years of tournaments where we did not get to see the best players compete against one another.
Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
From Wikipedia (relevant in a discussion about greatness): Propagandists exploit cognitive biases and other elements of decision making to shape their messages to influence the target audience. In this sense they are able to insert a propaganda message into a target audience's logic to make that message more believable and credible. Specifically, propagandists deliberately use errors in arguments to appeal to the emotions of their audience. When a counterpropaganda campaign exposes the target audience's errors in judgment and resolves them the propaganda message loses strength. This counterpropaganda method works similarly as revealing the true origin of a propaganda message as it exposes the broadcaster as a liar which reduces its credibility.
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Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
From Wikipedia: [Cognitive Bias is the] tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, and discredit information that does not support the initial opinion. Related to the concept of cognitive dissonance that individuals may reduce inconsistency by searching for information which reconfirms their views (Jermias, 2001, p. 146).
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FlyingSaucer
Rookie
But he didn't stop doing it for a year. In the same year he was restricted from competing fully due to not meeting visa requirements, he won multiple tournaments, including a slam. I am not seeing the injustice, frankly.
soldat
Rookie
I think it was clearly an injustice. It was as unjust as banning Russians from the 2022 Wimbledon. Or like banning African Americans from baseball way back when.
It is unjust to prevent someone from being able to compete in a sport where it is the athlete’s skill and athleticism that’s being measured.
Simply poetic that Rybakina ended up winning the Wimbledon that year.
FlyingSaucer
Rookie
You seem invested in conflating issues that are not very similar.
In the case of Djokovic, he made choices that resulted in his being restricted in terms of travel. He knew the consequences. I know that sounds very Nadal-like, but it's not like the restrictions were designed with Djokovic in mind.
soldat
Rookie
It may have been different in the technicalities, but in terms of the outcome, it was the same.
We were deprived of seeing some great matchups, no one in Australia dared to speak up, and the Morrison government ended up getting voted out anyways despite all they claimed to have done in the name of public health.
Nothing to do with Nadal, it’s not like he made up the COVID travel restrictions or deported Djokovic in a corrupt use of power.
I always look forward to seeing a Djokovic-Nadal meeting. We can finally see it at Indian wells or French Open this year. Nadal won FO in 2020, Djokovic in 2021, Nadal again in 2022. They didn’t get to meet in 2023 so it’s Djokovic’s turn to get revenge in 2024?
The point is that you want to see the two great rivals square off, instead of preventing one of them from playing.
itrium84
Hall of Fame
I asked Google Search, ChatGPT and Gemini AI - they all agree that Novak is the GOAT. All these services base their answers on huge amount of data taken from... overwhelming majority of people.
You're living in a past, when Federer indeed was a GOAT. Reality disagrees with your obsolete and false statements.
KantenKlaar
Professional
I agree. @Silentchimera relies on repetitive chorus to say absolutely nothing.
Razer
Legend
ChatGPT is yet to give Novak's name as the GOAT
I checked just now, it is not giving a conclusive answer.
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
You know Greatness and Greatest are two different words, right?"Faulty Logic" again LOL! To be the "greatest" you need the "most greatness"! These mental gymnastics are hilarious. To those that can't debate: (People Using an Opposite Definition of Greatness!): Federer is (i believe) the GOAT! (for you and me in reality!)
Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
Sure do. The following words listed include "Great"/"opposite definition" and "Inflections of Great"/"opposite definitions": Great/Insignificant, Greatness/Insignificance, Greatly/Insignificantly, Greater/More Insignificant, Greatest/Most Insignificant. You (reality) >
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Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
I will let this settle (subjective) for a bit (subjective). I think (subjective) I have achieved (subjective) my goal (subjective) to improve (subjective) people's understanding (subjective) about the meaning (subjective) of greatness (subjective). No.1 (?):To become greater individuals, challenge your bias with ethics and logic!
I will be checking (subjective) in (will respond to the thread again soon), but I need (subjective) to get some work (subjective) accomplished (subjective) that pays (subjective) the bills (subjective). That is... Unless greatly (subjective) provoked (subjective) to action (subjective)...
To those that can't debate (in reality with logic/ethics): (People Using an Opposite Definition of Greatness!): Federer is (I believe) the ((please don't make assumptions when I refer to "GOAT" in this way!)(tennis is the context here)) GOAT! (for you and me in reality!)
I will be checking (subjective) in (will respond to the thread again soon), but I need (subjective) to get some work (subjective) accomplished (subjective) that pays (subjective) the bills (subjective). That is... Unless greatly (subjective) provoked (subjective) to action (subjective)...
To those that can't debate (in reality with logic/ethics): (People Using an Opposite Definition of Greatness!): Federer is (I believe) the ((please don't make assumptions when I refer to "GOAT" in this way!)(tennis is the context here)) GOAT! (for you and me in reality!)
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a10best
Hall of Fame
Jeezus guys; Wikipedia does not have everything posted as 100% accurate or factual. I know in my industry they don't. ChatGPT is even less accurate. I feel bad for those who check ChatGPT results with Wikipedia. This generation relies on quick printed info as fact. Don't fall into that trap.
Let's put this to rest. As of now, Djokovic is the greatest in his sport. He didn't need to win 24. With just 21 slams won he was the greatest due to his H2H against Nadal & Federer.
He is also the greatest HC player of all time.
- Mayweather at 50-0 is not the greatest welterweight based on numbers alone; weak era. Give that to Leonard or Hearns.
- LeBron is not the greatest NBA player based on a 4-6 finals record or scoring 40K points over 21 seasons; he benefited from an extremely weak era over the last 8 years.
- Michael Phelps is the greatest male swimmer of all time.
Let's put this to rest. As of now, Djokovic is the greatest in his sport. He didn't need to win 24. With just 21 slams won he was the greatest due to his H2H against Nadal & Federer.
He is also the greatest HC player of all time.
- Mayweather at 50-0 is not the greatest welterweight based on numbers alone; weak era. Give that to Leonard or Hearns.
- LeBron is not the greatest NBA player based on a 4-6 finals record or scoring 40K points over 21 seasons; he benefited from an extremely weak era over the last 8 years.
- Michael Phelps is the greatest male swimmer of all time.
Silentchimera
Semi-Pro
(Updated 4/3/2024) This is the reality: (not a Djokovic fan's fantasies!
My beliefs and opinions of what greatness means are up for debate. This is so I can become greater as an individual. We should not decide our values by popular opinion, but this tells me my belief's and opinions are widely shared (unlike many suggest!). We need to be able to challenge our bias and discuss context.
I decided to google some polls of the greatest sportsmen of all time. The first poll I opened and was conducted when Djokovic already had 24 majors. Federer Top 10. Federer is usually Top 10, and as high up as Top 7. He is one of the immortal GOAT sportsmen that ever lived! (let alone tennis!) He is ranked right next to Pele, Lebron, Bo Jackson, Messi, Ronaldo, Usain Bolt, Jesse Owens and a bit below Michael Phelps! Usually little mention of Djokovic or Nadal on many lists of Top 50. (sorry to offend!) Federer transcended tennis to a completely different level of greatness! Djokovic is nowhere near the consensus tennis GOAT. (and never will be!)
If posters want to play with numbers, I have better ones lol. If your only arguments are the numbers, it rules you out automatically! It doesn't matter anyway. The numbers clearly do not define sporting greatness, in the minds of the people, the sport exists to serve in the first place! Those who argue otherwise: Wouldn't even have their tennis wiki stats, to cite constantly (without context), if the matches were not relevant context!
Federer has plenty of arguments to still be your tennis GOAT, despite what many would try to have you believe. Apparently, nobody cares about Djokovic's faulty Top 10 wins over 90's gen, faulty ELO stats and CIE majors. Nobody really cares about Djokovic's supposedly "strong" competition from players older than him, that were from Federer's era/generational talent! Federer faced the same players when they were his age, or when they were younger than he was! Federer clearly had the toughest competition out of the Big 3 (it's extremely difficult to argue otherwise!).
It is important to acknowledge: Federer built his game to dominate, in a transitional era, where the conditions were changing rapidly! That versatile game with his one-handed backhand won him 11/16 majors in his record peak age stretch and 16/27 majors with a career grand slam in his record prime age stretch.
Federer's records during his record prime stretch are mind boggling! These are the first that come to my mind: 237 consecutive weeks at No.1, 18/19 consecutive major finals, 23 consecutive major semis, 36 consecutive major QF's, 5 straight Wimbledon and US Open titles respectively, the second channel slam since Bjorn Borg, 3 majors a year 3 times, all major finals reached in a year 3 times, 24 straight finals won, 65 and 56 consecutive matches won on grass and hardcourt respectively, 7 consecutive major finals won including his first major final reached, 4 consecutive major finals on his worst surface... Federer won: 320/340 (93%) of his matches during his record peak stretch (2003 Halle - 2007 YEC)! Federer won: 492/552 (89.1%) of his matches during his record prime stretch (2003 Halle - 2010 AO)! These statistics are otherworldly insane! Federer has many, many more records and feats over these stretches that are taking too long to list...!!!
To me, that clearly indicates: Federer has the greatest peak and prime by the numbers! (with context) That's what matters most to me! That's what I saw for myself! I don't ask chatGPT! lol. I don't really care about weak majors won mid 30's! (much lower level)
Federer had extremely tough competition from younger ATG's when he was old. Federer played tennis from a different planet during his peak! It doesn't matter who you put in front of him lol. He would destroy every field! I love Federer's streak records. They were always his best records to me. This was because they were the most exciting to witness!
His records are simply amazing! This was dominance that has never been seen before. There are different numbers people should look at, besides total major count. That is if they want more than a "Most Insignificant" interpretation of a players career! The absolute fixation with total major count isnt healthy and doesn't do a great sport the justice it deserves.
Federer still won 20 majors! 6 more than the old record he broke! He became the oldest man to reach No.1 not far off 37, won his last major at 36.4 years of age, reached his last final (losing with huge age disadvantage against Djokovic with matchpoints in a lengthy 5 setter) at Wimbledon at almost 38 and dominated his kryptonite Nadal (5yrs younger!) late in his career! Federer has very strong losing efforts that would easily win majors the last 6 years (He was losing very close matches to Peak Djokovic and Nadal in his post prime/late prime! Huge Age Disadvantage!) Federer is a longevity GOAT contender! I don't need career slams/weeks No.1 over weak fields (lower level of competition is very noticeable!). Federer took his RG the only real chance he had!
Federer set all of these crazy streak/stretch records I listed earlier on at peak and prime age. This is the age that players almost always are at their best. The data shows this hasn't changed in recent times. The best players are aware of the aging curve. They use historical data that is good at predicting future performance based on age. It makes sense to me he didn't win as much, when he started leaving prime age! At this time conditions stabilised to support pure baseliners that were younger than him like Nadal and Djokovic! Both of them strong contenders for 2nd/3rd (for me)
I didn't even talk about Federer's playstyle/character yet! This is probably my favourite thing about Roger! GOAT forehand, majestic one-handed BH, flawless technique, serve not far off Sampras level, GOAT second serve?, GOAT underrated return?, impeccable footwork, athleticism, impeccable volleys/overhead/smash/lob, all court game, incredible speed, endurance, explosiveness, GOAT half volleys, tweeners over Djokovic's head that he applauds...beauty in tennis form! His aura, composure, keeping me constantly up at night in awe (on edge) in/with his matches, the emotion (fans too), his determination, discipline, consistency, crowd always loved him, work ethic, humanity, morality, inspirational, RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE, people lived through Roger and his game (not his stats!), freakish reflexes...
I can't see the mental inferiority to the other Big 3 at all! He plays a high risk/reward game that requires perfect execution (perfect for dominance in changing conditions (versatility). This is totally different to being able to relax into longer rallies... Federer >> Djokovic on Grass, Federer > Djokovic on HC (Prime level tips this to Roger!), Federer > Djokovic on Clay (Prime level tips this to Roger!) (Much, much, more relevant context to discuss!) Until then, get out of here lol. You have 2-3 stats (without context = "most insignificant") (totally laughable!) Ladies and gentlemen, Federer is the tennis GOAT who came from the "strong" era (to me)!
To enter a debate about "GREATNESS": The real definition MUST be used:
GREATNESS(subjective) = GREATNESS! Not fantasy definitions that have opposite meanings! Using: GREATNESS(objective) = insignificance...
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Greats of sports, first and foremost define and represent their sport with character. I've seen a lot of "greats" who have stats, but aren't in that category. There never is one greatest to me because they can also only compete against whatever competition is in their era, and drawing conclusion across era, weak eras, good/bad opponents...just too many variables, but one could always argue those stats.
itrium84
Hall of Fame
Pure nonsense. Also, poor wording.
itrium84
Hall of Fame
Literally no one here accepted your personal theory. Maybe it's a conspiracy against you, I don't knowI hope I have played my part to help people understand the meaning of greatness. Everyone MUST have their own meaning of greatness (as long as it remains subjective!). Nobody can force you to accept that greatness is not subjective! This is the opposite definition of greatness and means More Insignificant! (Fantasy Land!)
I wanted people to know more about their individual rights. Everyone can have their own GOAT as long as it's logical! Use your rights so that people can't force you to believe their faulty logic, (they don't believe themselves in reality!) to control what you think and believe!
Greatness allows this to be logical: 1 strong major = 2 weak majors. 1 RU > 1 Title at the same event at a different time. To those that can't debate: (People Using an Opposite Definition of Greatness!): Federer is (i believe) the GOAT! (for you and me in reality!)
itrium84
Hall of Fame
This is literally what you've been doing through this whole thread. Omg
itrium84
Hall of Fame
Novak dominated more.
This generation is pretty good, but Novak is so great that he makes them look below average.
Did he? 11 slams won in his prime vs 16, no CYGS despite having 2015/2016 at his peak to achieve it. Federer had 2004 and 2009 as his best chances, both stronger years.
Bolded: Alcaraz/Sinner gen is decent. Entire 90s born gen’s are poor and failed to stop an aging big 3.
itrium84
Hall of Fame
It seems like he took some YouTube philosophy course, but actually a personal blog dressed as philosophy.
I've encountered many of these "Rick and Morty" philosophers, it's all weak sauce.
Breakpointerer
Legend
Nadal never got close to doing it either, and even Djokovic didn't achieve it(although he did win 4 in a row, to his credit) yet I never see you saying the same about either of them..
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Dry your tears.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
RS
Bionic Poster
I think Tyson always has a punchers chance but I am thinking Paul could have too much youth on his side.It certainly has the potential if Jake ends up on the floor
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
It means Joshua knocking Francis spark out in round 1.
RS
Bionic Poster
I would hope not.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
RS
Bionic Poster
I should have put a small bet. Maybe if Fury Uysk happens.
Breakpointerer
Legend
Try harder next time.
itrium84
Hall of Fame
"This is an example of discussing context (global outreach, era/conditions, competition all relevant context of statistics) that contribute to the whole package of greatness (to me). This is only a small fraction of relevant context to me."(outdated, see future updates) This is not a GOAT debate thread, it is a discussion about the meaning of greatness to each individual. This is an example of discussing context (global outreach, era/conditions, competition all relevant context of statistics) that contribute to the whole package of greatness (to me). This is only a small fraction of relevant context to me.
My beliefs and opinions of what greatness means are up for debate. This is so I can become greater as an individual. We should not decide our values by popular opinion, but this tells me my belief's and opinions are widely shared (unlike many suggest!). We need to be able to challenge our bias and discuss context.
I decided to google some polls of the greatest sportsmen of all time. This is the first poll I opened and was conducted when Djokovic already had 24 majors. Federer Top 10. Federer is usually Top 10, and as high up as Top 7. He is one of the immortal GOAT sportsmen that ever lived! (let alone tennis!) He is ranked right next to Pele, Lebron, Bo Jackson, Messi, Ronaldo, Usain Bolt, Jesse Owens and a bit below Michael Phelps! Usually little mention of Djokovic or Nadal on many lists of Top 50. (sorry to offend!) Federer transcended tennis to a completely different level of greatness! Djokovic is nowhere near the consensus tennis GOAT. (and never will be!)
If posters want to play with numbers, I have better ones lol. If your only arguments are the numbers, it rules you out automatically! It doesn't matter anyway, numbers alone, clearly do not define sporting greatness, in the minds of the people, the sport exists to serve in the first place! Those who argue otherwise: Wouldn't even have their tennis wiki stats, to cite constantly (without context), if the matches were not relevant context!
Federer has plenty of arguments to still be your tennis GOAT, despite what many would try to have you believe. Apparently, nobody cares about Djokovic's faulty Top 10 wins over 90's gen, faulty ELO stats. (Or Djokovic's supposedly "strong" competition from players older than him that were from Federer's era/generational talent. Players that Federer also played when they were his age, or when they were younger than he was!) Federer clearly had the toughest competition out of the Big 3 (it's extremely difficult to argue otherwise!).
Let's also not forget that Federer built his game to dominate, in a transitional era, where the conditions were changing rapidly! That versatile game with his one-handed backhand won him 11/16 majors in his record peak age stretch and 16/27 majors with a career grand slam in his record prime age stretch.
He managed records like 237 consecutive weeks at No.1, 18/19 consecutive finals, 23 consecutive semis, 36 consecutive QF, 5 straight Wimbledons and US Opens, the second channel slam since Bjorn Borg, 3 majors a year 3 times, all majors finals reached in a year 3 times, 24 straight finals won, 65 and 56 consecutive matches won on grass and hardcourt respectively, 7 consecutive finals won including his first final reached, 4 consecutive finals on his worst surface...(link insane win % during peak/prime stretches) and many more records (that are taking too long to list) and feats during his record prime stretch.
To me, that clearly indicates: Federer has the greatest peak and prime by the numbers! That's what matters most to me! That's what I saw for myself! I don't ask chatGPT! lol. I don't care about weak slams mid 30's! (much lower level)
Federer had extremely tough competition from younger ATG's when he was old. Federer played tennis from a different planet during his peak! It doesn't matter who you put in front of him lol. He would destroy every field! I love Federer's streak records. They were always his best records to me. This was because they were the most exciting to witness!
His records are simply amazing! This was dominance that has never been seen before. There are different numbers people should look at, besides total major count. That is if they want more than a shallow interpretation of a players career! The absolute fixation with total major count isnt healthy and doesn't do a great sport the justice it deserves.
Federer still won 20 slams! 6 more than the old record he broke! Oldest No.1 at not far off 37, making and almost winning a final (losing with huge age disadvantage against Djokovic with matchpoints) at Wimbledon at almost 38. He dominated his kryptonite late in his career (5yrs younger!) He has very strong losing efforts that would easily win slams the last 6 years (He was losing very close matches to Peak Djokovic and Nadal in his post prime/late prime! Huge Age Disadvantage!) I don't need career slams/weeks No.1 over weak fields (lower level is very noticeable!). Federer took his RG the only real chance he had!
Federer set all of these crazy streak/stretch records I listed earlier on at peak and prime age. This is the age that players almost always are at their best. The data shows this hasn't changed in recent times. The best players are aware of the aging curve. They use historical data that is good at predicting future performance based on age. It makes sense to me he didn't win as much, when he started leaving prime age. At this time conditions stabilised to support pure baseliners that were younger than him like Nadal and Djokovic! He still took the record weeks at No.1 ranking at almost 31 from peak Djokovic and Nadal. 2011 RG, 2012 W, 2011 USO were all epic fights at an age Djokovic was burnt out in 2017-2018!
I didn't even talk about Federer's playstyle yet! This is probably my favourite thing about Roger! GOAT forehand, serve not far off Sampras level, impeccable footwork, athleticism, impeccable volleys/overhead/smash/backhand/lob, all court game, incredible speed, explosiveness, GOAT half volleys, tweeners over Djokovic's head that he applauds...beauty in tennis form! His aura, composure, keeping me constantly up at night in awe (on edge) in/with his matches, the emotion (fans too), his discipline, consistency, crowd always loved him, work ethic, humanity, morality, inspiration, people lived through Roger's game (not his stats!), freakish reflexes...
I can't see the mental inferiority to the other Big 3 at all! He plays a high risk/reward game that requires perfect execution (perfect for dominance in changing conditions (versatility). This is totally different to being able to relax into longer rallies... Much, much, more relevant context to discuss!) Until then, get out of here lol. You have 2-3 stats (totally laughable!) Ladies and gentlemen, Federer is the tennis GOAT who came from the "strong" era (to me)!
To enter a debate about greatness: The real definition must be used...
Greatness(subjective) = Greatness. Not fantasy definitions that have opposite meanings lol. Using: Greatness(objective) = More Insignificant! The opposite of greatness! Come back to reality if you want to debate in reality... Until then (for you): Federer is the GOAT!
What is this "all relevant context of statistics" gibberish!?
All relevant context of statistics is a part of the example of discussing context, which is a fraction of relevant context!? Wtf?
Please articulate your claim better, so we mere mortals, can even start to understand what you want to say.
+ Why are you sharing "only a small fraction of relevant context"? Why are you hiding the whole context from the rest of us? Why not define/explain the whole context, are you so insecure and afraid of scrutiny?
itrium84
Hall of Fame
"My beliefs and opinions of what greatness means are up for debate."(outdated, see future updates) This is not a GOAT debate thread, it is a discussion about the meaning of greatness to each individual. This is an example of discussing context (global outreach, era/conditions, competition all relevant context of statistics) that contribute to the whole package of greatness (to me). This is only a small fraction of relevant context to me.
My beliefs and opinions of what greatness means are up for debate. This is so I can become greater as an individual. We should not decide our values by popular opinion, but this tells me my belief's and opinions are widely shared (unlike many suggest!). We need to be able to challenge our bias and discuss context.
I decided to google some polls of the greatest sportsmen of all time. This is the first poll I opened and was conducted when Djokovic already had 24 majors. Federer Top 10. Federer is usually Top 10, and as high up as Top 7. He is one of the immortal GOAT sportsmen that ever lived! (let alone tennis!) He is ranked right next to Pele, Lebron, Bo Jackson, Messi, Ronaldo, Usain Bolt, Jesse Owens and a bit below Michael Phelps! Usually little mention of Djokovic or Nadal on many lists of Top 50. (sorry to offend!) Federer transcended tennis to a completely different level of greatness! Djokovic is nowhere near the consensus tennis GOAT. (and never will be!)
If posters want to play with numbers, I have better ones lol. If your only arguments are the numbers, it rules you out automatically! It doesn't matter anyway, numbers alone, clearly do not define sporting greatness, in the minds of the people, the sport exists to serve in the first place! Those who argue otherwise: Wouldn't even have their tennis wiki stats, to cite constantly (without context), if the matches were not relevant context!
Federer has plenty of arguments to still be your tennis GOAT, despite what many would try to have you believe. Apparently, nobody cares about Djokovic's faulty Top 10 wins over 90's gen, faulty ELO stats. (Or Djokovic's supposedly "strong" competition from players older than him that were from Federer's era/generational talent. Players that Federer also played when they were his age, or when they were younger than he was!) Federer clearly had the toughest competition out of the Big 3 (it's extremely difficult to argue otherwise!).
Let's also not forget that Federer built his game to dominate, in a transitional era, where the conditions were changing rapidly! That versatile game with his one-handed backhand won him 11/16 majors in his record peak age stretch and 16/27 majors with a career grand slam in his record prime age stretch.
He managed records like 237 consecutive weeks at No.1, 18/19 consecutive finals, 23 consecutive semis, 36 consecutive QF, 5 straight Wimbledons and US Opens, the second channel slam since Bjorn Borg, 3 majors a year 3 times, all majors finals reached in a year 3 times, 24 straight finals won, 65 and 56 consecutive matches won on grass and hardcourt respectively, 7 consecutive finals won including his first final reached, 4 consecutive finals on his worst surface...(link insane win % during peak/prime stretches) and many more records (that are taking too long to list) and feats during his record prime stretch.
To me, that clearly indicates: Federer has the greatest peak and prime by the numbers! That's what matters most to me! That's what I saw for myself! I don't ask chatGPT! lol. I don't care about weak slams mid 30's! (much lower level)
Federer had extremely tough competition from younger ATG's when he was old. Federer played tennis from a different planet during his peak! It doesn't matter who you put in front of him lol. He would destroy every field! I love Federer's streak records. They were always his best records to me. This was because they were the most exciting to witness!
His records are simply amazing! This was dominance that has never been seen before. There are different numbers people should look at, besides total major count. That is if they want more than a shallow interpretation of a players career! The absolute fixation with total major count isnt healthy and doesn't do a great sport the justice it deserves.
Federer still won 20 slams! 6 more than the old record he broke! Oldest No.1 at not far off 37, making and almost winning a final (losing with huge age disadvantage against Djokovic with matchpoints) at Wimbledon at almost 38. He dominated his kryptonite late in his career (5yrs younger!) He has very strong losing efforts that would easily win slams the last 6 years (He was losing very close matches to Peak Djokovic and Nadal in his post prime/late prime! Huge Age Disadvantage!) I don't need career slams/weeks No.1 over weak fields (lower level is very noticeable!). Federer took his RG the only real chance he had!
Federer set all of these crazy streak/stretch records I listed earlier on at peak and prime age. This is the age that players almost always are at their best. The data shows this hasn't changed in recent times. The best players are aware of the aging curve. They use historical data that is good at predicting future performance based on age. It makes sense to me he didn't win as much, when he started leaving prime age. At this time conditions stabilised to support pure baseliners that were younger than him like Nadal and Djokovic! He still took the record weeks at No.1 ranking at almost 31 from peak Djokovic and Nadal. 2011 RG, 2012 W, 2011 USO were all epic fights at an age Djokovic was burnt out in 2017-2018!
I didn't even talk about Federer's playstyle yet! This is probably my favourite thing about Roger! GOAT forehand, serve not far off Sampras level, impeccable footwork, athleticism, impeccable volleys/overhead/smash/backhand/lob, all court game, incredible speed, explosiveness, GOAT half volleys, tweeners over Djokovic's head that he applauds...beauty in tennis form! His aura, composure, keeping me constantly up at night in awe (on edge) in/with his matches, the emotion (fans too), his discipline, consistency, crowd always loved him, work ethic, humanity, morality, inspiration, people lived through Roger's game (not his stats!), freakish reflexes...
I can't see the mental inferiority to the other Big 3 at all! He plays a high risk/reward game that requires perfect execution (perfect for dominance in changing conditions (versatility). This is totally different to being able to relax into longer rallies... Much, much, more relevant context to discuss!) Until then, get out of here lol. You have 2-3 stats (totally laughable!) Ladies and gentlemen, Federer is the tennis GOAT who came from the "strong" era (to me)!
To enter a debate about greatness: The real definition must be used...
Greatness(subjective) = Greatness. Not fantasy definitions that have opposite meanings lol. Using: Greatness(objective) = More Insignificant! The opposite of greatness! Come back to reality if you want to debate in reality... Until then (for you): Federer is the GOAT!
If you didn't state this openly, we would never know.
"This is so I can become greater as an individual."
Doubt it.
"We should not decide our values by popular opinion, but this tells me my belief's and opinions are widely shared (unlike many suggest!)."
Literally not one person here agrees with you on discarding objective reality.
"We need to be able to challenge our bias and discuss context."
Yes, yes you do. Try harder, maybe?
itrium84
Hall of Fame
What polls!? Where are they? How many?
Be honest - you just googled for some personal blogs on the topic, and chose the ones that conform to your subjective views. Can't get more biased than that.
"Federer transcended tennis to a completely different level of greatness!" - So did Novak and Rafa. And Sampras and Agassi. And McEnroe, and Borg. And Rosewall, Laver, Gonzales, Kramer...
"Djokovic is nowhere near the consensus tennis GOAT. (and never will be!)"
Hahaha, you're just too afraid to type the question "who is the tennis GOAT?" into your Google search field. You literally choose to be ignorant on this.
Not to mention, ChatGPT and Gemini agreeing on this one - Novak Djokovic is the GOAT.
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