lovethetriangle
Rookie
one month camp, apart from full immerssion to the game separately.
Best tennis camp for 4.0/4.5 25 year old that wants to go pro
- Thread starter lovethetriangle
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lovethetriangle
Rookie
And by pro i mean top player + davis cup in a thirdworld country not known for tennis (philippines). Not Fed/nadal pro since that is next to impossible, however I'd like you to correct me if I am wrong.
I do have the financial resources, fortunately.
goober
Legend
If you truly have the money, go to one of the big Florida academies like Bollettieri or Saddlebrook. Get private coaching and the whole 9 yards. Forget the one month plan. You have to go for it full time. If you are not making progress after a year or two and beating the academy kids in practice matches, you may want to rethink you pro aspirations. The Phillipines Davis Cup team still has players that are like top 400. From 4.0/4.5 to 7.0 is a huge jump that few can make.
MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER
Semi-Pro
Actually based on your outline, there is a little place in N.Y.C. called Bellvue.
topsltennis
Semi-Pro
Don't see it happening, but good luck.
Japanese Maple
Semi-Pro
Its been awhile since I have had such a good laugh-now that is funny!
lovethetriangle
Rookie
I've been playing since I was 5, 5'11 165lbs left handed, always had talent beat a lot of good players, but never any direction. Stopped to party and drink and do stupid things from 19 to 22, 2-3 times a week from 22 to 24, now fully immersed in tennis (sports specific plyometrics/core training/strength/flexibility/balance training 3x a week besides tennis).
I also run a full time business thus I can't really leave the country for more than a month. I'm thinking Saddlebrooke for a month for the ff:
-build confidence, since i'll be getting instruction from the worlds best.
-gain direction, a month spent there will be enough for them to give me a guide on how to go about my goals when i get back.
-play with MUCH better players
-clear out any kinks in my game
To give you an idea of the Philippine level, I played a dude ranked 19 and lost 6-1 6-3. He can go shot for shot with the top 5 and I can go shot for shot with him when we rally at full strength (I just can't put it together in sets serve/return still a major prob).
Nothing is impossible, and I love the process of training so why not make the attempt.
I also will hire a level 2 itf coach very soon.
Do you have any input or better ideas? If so, please share. Thanks in advance for your help.
Cheers guys.
topsltennis
Semi-Pro
Dude. I play around your level as well. Though I'm quite a bit older- I would never fathom the idea of trying/thinking I could play at the level you are talking about. The difference between a 4.5 and even a 5.5 is tremendous and as hard as I've tried, I could never even get to that level- much less 6.5 or 7.0. I think it's awesome that you have the desire and resources to try- there's certainly no harm in that- but truth be told, if you were going to get anywhere near that level you would already be there. But hey, for your sake I hope you prove me wrong. Have a great time with it.
So the top 5 Phillipino players are competitive with a 4.0? Doubt it's true but if it's true, it only goes to show that the country shouldn't be in Davis cup at all. Nor could any of them be remotely competitive at even the satellite level.
As for the OP, if you played tennis from age 5-19 and arrived at 4.0 or even 4.5, give up any hope of competing in any at the pro level unless you simply want to be a joke.
As for "instruction from the world's best". You don't need it...seriously! Why not spend some time playing with these top players from your country until you are beating them and THEN go get instruction from "the best". You'll benefit a lot more from it then actually.
It's a bit ridiculous to go to "the best" at a world-class academy and ask them how to manage your pro career when they're busy trying to get your backhand fundamentals ironed out and you haven't played competitively at any level at all!
EDIT: oh come on. You're starting threads about basic tennis instruction, asking for help from people who have no clue and wondering where the ideal contact point for a forehand is...."waist, shoulder, in front of waist?"
Look, I strongly suggest you establish realistic goals in a step-by-step process. Like for example, get a 4.5 ranking in your country. This is how you will gain experience and really see what needs to be done and what your next goals should be. It will help you ask the right questions.
As for the OP, if you played tennis from age 5-19 and arrived at 4.0 or even 4.5, give up any hope of competing in any at the pro level unless you simply want to be a joke.
As for "instruction from the world's best". You don't need it...seriously! Why not spend some time playing with these top players from your country until you are beating them and THEN go get instruction from "the best". You'll benefit a lot more from it then actually.
It's a bit ridiculous to go to "the best" at a world-class academy and ask them how to manage your pro career when they're busy trying to get your backhand fundamentals ironed out and you haven't played competitively at any level at all!
EDIT: oh come on. You're starting threads about basic tennis instruction, asking for help from people who have no clue and wondering where the ideal contact point for a forehand is...."waist, shoulder, in front of waist?"
Look, I strongly suggest you establish realistic goals in a step-by-step process. Like for example, get a 4.5 ranking in your country. This is how you will gain experience and really see what needs to be done and what your next goals should be. It will help you ask the right questions.
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mikeler
Moderator
Had you won some major junior tournaments like the Easter Bowl, then I think you would have a legitimate shot at getting to the upper echelon. Nothing in your resume suggests you have gotten anywhere close to this level. It's good that you have the money to do this, but I would not bet your financial future on it.
10sbune
Rookie
bad_call
Legend
yeah...just go to Saddlebrook and maybe you'll get a chance to hit with some top flight players. btw - sounds like that dude u play with has a few more "intangible" facets in his game. to get those takes a bit more experience...like better shot selection.
lovethetriangle
Rookie
Hi Moz, i'm 25, been playing since I was 5, not serious for the most part, focused a little bit in highschool where I became varsity captain and nationally ranked, then captain of a **** college, then all down hill.
Full immersion meaning my life dedicated to it. I think i'm a 4.5-5 now that I've been on this site more and understand the ratings better, but it's still a very hazy system.
Moz
Hall of Fame
Hi mate
My first suggestion would be to firmly establish where your game is at the moment. Use this coach and take a full stroke inventory - then play some tournaments and get a very accurate idea of where you stand. Only from that point can you make a solid plan to address what parts of your game to prioritise. Only with that plan can you choose the right camp. These camps don't seem to be the best places to get a comprehensive technical overhaul - they are much more useful if you are already fundamentally solid.
Honestly, you stand no chance of making it as a playing pro with your background and age. Dreams are great but you are really up against it. However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try - as long as you're not throwing away a future....
Good luck!
My first suggestion would be to firmly establish where your game is at the moment. Use this coach and take a full stroke inventory - then play some tournaments and get a very accurate idea of where you stand. Only from that point can you make a solid plan to address what parts of your game to prioritise. Only with that plan can you choose the right camp. These camps don't seem to be the best places to get a comprehensive technical overhaul - they are much more useful if you are already fundamentally solid.
Honestly, you stand no chance of making it as a playing pro with your background and age. Dreams are great but you are really up against it. However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try - as long as you're not throwing away a future....
Good luck!
goober
Legend
If you are running a business full time, I don't see how you can train to be pro. That alone makes me think it is unrealistic.
While maybe there is a big drop off in level of talent in the Philippines say at #19, the Davis Cup players are definitely 7.0 and 6.5. Cecil Mammit and Eric Taino are actually PhilAms that have trained in America their whole lives and both have been in the top 200 players.
So instead why don't your train to be the best you can be. Making the Davis Cup team even in the Philippines I think is out of reach.
Reality check time...seek professional advice from a qualified professional to assess your chances of ever achieving this goal. To characterize your chances as a long-shot is likely a gross exaggeration of the truth...
Lovethetriangle...
I know Cecil and Eric and watched their DC play earlier this year.
If you think you have a legitimate shot, go (or enter) a Challenger tournament and assess your chances against some of the players (or even the Q entrants). Both Cecil and Eric have played at that level (and sometimes struggled) while also trying to get points to play at the regular ATP level.
If you're in the LA area, you can try to get lessons with Eric and have him assess your chances of being a RP DC player. You'd still have to play guys like PJ Tierro and Johnny Arcilla who are veterans of the squad.
For that matter, if you can spare a month, you could've scheduled yourself to play in the PCA Open in MNL and see how you would fare against the likes of Johnny (3-time defending champ) and some other Asian pros.
Realistically, if you're 25 now? The train's left the station. Better to check out USTA NTRP or Futures tournaments.
I know Cecil and Eric and watched their DC play earlier this year.
If you think you have a legitimate shot, go (or enter) a Challenger tournament and assess your chances against some of the players (or even the Q entrants). Both Cecil and Eric have played at that level (and sometimes struggled) while also trying to get points to play at the regular ATP level.
If you're in the LA area, you can try to get lessons with Eric and have him assess your chances of being a RP DC player. You'd still have to play guys like PJ Tierro and Johnny Arcilla who are veterans of the squad.
For that matter, if you can spare a month, you could've scheduled yourself to play in the PCA Open in MNL and see how you would fare against the likes of Johnny (3-time defending champ) and some other Asian pros.
Realistically, if you're 25 now? The train's left the station. Better to check out USTA NTRP or Futures tournaments.
Good advice Moz. It's a lot of what I was trying to say, but you're MUCH nicer about it. LOL
Part of the reason I am not though, is because I think this poster is either BS'ing a bit about hanging with top players given some of the other posts for adivce he made. Still, he does self rate as 4.5, so there's some kind of disconnect going on here, I think, about how far above the "pros" are.
In any case though, I have no problem with a person pursuing a dream, even an unrealistic one, I think I have myself at times. But I think it's good to take a realistic approach in that if you recognize the implausibility of your insane goals, you can set up realistic "2nd place" ones.... and of course, set up a realistic plan to get there, which give you your best chance of success.
lovethetriangle
Rookie
Guys, thanks very much for your replies. I truly appreciate it.
For those that called BS, I'm really unsure of NTRP ratings. If it sounds BS, it isn't meant to be BS. I'm trying hard to get where I want to be and searching for every possible solution from every possible angle. Go ahead and be blunt and tell me to get a reality check, I appreciate honesty, but don't question my integrity. I love the game as you love the game, I came here for information, not to tell everyone how good/bad I am.
BOOKEM: I trained with Lizardo at age 13/14/15 and even beat Tierro at a 14under tourney (well that was 11 years ago so yeah). There is a huge disparity in the players ranked 1-5 and 6-30, huge. Guy's ranked 20-30 are those guys that have been there forever and just know how to win ugly and have not necessarily had any kind of world class training.
BET: By hanging with top players, I don't mean I go 7-6 6-4 with them or even take sets from them. I can rally with them, do drills, and hold my own. My biggest problem right now is footwork, it's not big, it's HUGE. I have the forehand, the backhand, the height for serve, and the craft, but I just never moved my feet growing up, ever. And because of this, I'm currently going full blast fitness wise as I'm training my core/balance/biomechanics/footwork/speed/plyo/flexibility and I just know this is going to do something incredible with my game. Bet, thanks for your honesty and effort to help.
MOZ: What is Hubris? Sent you an email. Thanks for your honesty. Your blog rules.
Cheers guys.
For those that called BS, I'm really unsure of NTRP ratings. If it sounds BS, it isn't meant to be BS. I'm trying hard to get where I want to be and searching for every possible solution from every possible angle. Go ahead and be blunt and tell me to get a reality check, I appreciate honesty, but don't question my integrity. I love the game as you love the game, I came here for information, not to tell everyone how good/bad I am.
BOOKEM: I trained with Lizardo at age 13/14/15 and even beat Tierro at a 14under tourney (well that was 11 years ago so yeah). There is a huge disparity in the players ranked 1-5 and 6-30, huge. Guy's ranked 20-30 are those guys that have been there forever and just know how to win ugly and have not necessarily had any kind of world class training.
BET: By hanging with top players, I don't mean I go 7-6 6-4 with them or even take sets from them. I can rally with them, do drills, and hold my own. My biggest problem right now is footwork, it's not big, it's HUGE. I have the forehand, the backhand, the height for serve, and the craft, but I just never moved my feet growing up, ever. And because of this, I'm currently going full blast fitness wise as I'm training my core/balance/biomechanics/footwork/speed/plyo/flexibility and I just know this is going to do something incredible with my game. Bet, thanks for your honesty and effort to help.
MOZ: What is Hubris? Sent you an email. Thanks for your honesty. Your blog rules.
Cheers guys.
You are welcome Triangle. The thing that seems like BS is not your NTRP ranking, since you rate yourself quite low, it seems somewhat conservative thought the questions and advice you've been asking for don't inspire much confidence in your rating. But it doesn't matter what we think, or really, what you think. The best way, as some of us were saying is to play some tourneys. Figure out where you are now and then think about how to go FROM THERE. Establish small goals, not far ahead of where you actually are now. I am certain that Davis cup, satellite level play is way too far ahead of where you are. (though I would be happy to be wrong, for your sake).
Yes, the footwork might be BIGGER than even you think. It's the FIRST thing I used to look at in competitive juniors. Most of the other things can be learned. I can't overstate how vital it is at the pro level. Even the slowest of guys there, are really quick. Except some 6'4 + players and they are very quick relative to their size.
Plyometrics, can be helpful. But only to a certain extent. I spent a number of years training competitive athletes(not tennis) with plyos and weights. The plyos can help establish get the nervous system firing at it's best, develop your balance and muscles and basically help you achieve your best. But if you have relatively slow feet, then your ultimate potential is limited. This usually isn't that big of a deal for rec. players. I think any healthy, reasonably fit person has the potential to be a 5.0 player if they had the skills. But as you get higher, well there are lots of people who just don't have it physically in them to play the highest levels. Athleticism does become a real barrier. This happens even to fast-tracked juniors sometimes. Sometimes you can compensate to some degree with a LOT of firepower.
How is your serve? You say you have the height for the serve, but aren't you 5'11? That's tall enough to be potentially a very good server, it's not really tall enough to dominate 6.0's with the serve, unless you're roscoe tanner and even he was a bit on/off with the serve. This tends to be true of all the little man/big servers...Johansson, Becker, Kiefer, Chang etc.
lovethetriangle
Rookie
Thanks for the detailed reply, bet.
My question's seem trivial because honestly, before I joined this site, I can now officially say that I didn't know **** about tennis despite playing for over a decade. As Bungalo Bill mentions in several posts, tennis is far from instinct, and that's what I always thought it was. I just played to play, never being conscoius about footwork, ball trajectory, percentage tennis, blah blah blah. I just hit. I know I have talent and a ****load of heart, and now I'm beginning to understand what tennis is all about.
The reason I create the trivial threads is because I want to find out what the 'dogma' is with regard to every aspect of the sport. If there is a universal theory for each aspect, that's where I'd like to start. I really want to begin paying attention to detail.
I'm working on my serve, and its getting stronger and stronger, and I believe I have the focus to keep a very high percentage. I used to serve just to start the point, now I'm working on the best possible serve for freepoints.
I can't play matchplay for now, I damaged a disc in my back in June and working my way up, my trainer will clear me when he feels i'm ready. Right now just trying to get everything together and get the fitness right. I know the tennis is there.
I'm not doing this for money or fame (I'm not stupid to think I'll get to the worlds top 100 or even 500), luckily for me I'm running a business that is a great fallback and foundation. I just want to be the best player I can be. If the best I can be is top 20 in my country, then so be it. As his airness once said, "I'd rather fail that not try at all". This is why I urge you not to tell anyone that anything is impossible unless you know their full circumstance since confidence and belief plays a HUGE role in things like this.
I believe in myself a whole lot. And I'm gna try to make this happen, I'm here so that I don't just work hard, I want a direction so I can also work smart.
Well first of all, I didn't say this was impossible but I did say your goal is implausible and I don't think you could compete at a pro level as anything other than a joke.
I don't even think there is anything intrinsically wrong with telling somebody that something is impossible. It is a nice truism to say otherwise and in general, I think it's nice to support people, but if somebody says to me, my plan is to dedicate myself for the next 5 years into developing strong enough arms to flap them and fly. Am I doing them a favour by saying "well, it's not impossible!". In any case, as I said, I think you should pursue your dream but I think realistic goals will help you become the best you can be.
As to your tennis development. I won't get into it here. I will say, in all sincerity, it sounds to me, from what you said in this post, that you are going the absolute WRONG way (though perhaps that to is necessary, it's part of learning sometimes) and let me also say, be VERY careful who you listen to on this board.
I wish you well.
Moz
Hall of Fame
From wikipedia:
"Hubris, sometimes spelled hybris (ancient Greek ὕβρις), is a term used in modern English to indicate overweening pride, self-confidence, superciliousness, or arrogance, often resulting in fatal retribution. In ancient Greece, hubris referred to actions which, intentionally or not, shamed and humiliated the victim, and frequently the perpetrator as well."
This was not directed at you personally!
Thanks for reading the blog. I will reply to your email asap.
J
Julieta
Guest
This same thing happens with girls and modeling. I read a few magazine message boards and it never fails that someone posts something like this:
"It's always been my dream to be a model. I've been told by strangers on the street that I should model....I'm 5'4, do you think I have a shot?"
These people have almost no chance at modeling careers, but who wants to be the one to tell them it is impossible?!
J
Julieta
Guest
You can train really hard and then move to America, get a coaching job and tell people you played Davis Cup even if you didn't. This happens all of the time.
Topaz
Legend
Jeez Julieta, why do you have to squash my dreams????
I can relate, I'm *barely* 5'4"!!!
Ok, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
J
Julieta
Guest
Jeez Julieta, why do you have to squash my dreams????
I can relate, I'm *barely* 5'4"!!!
Ok, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
You can always be a petite model. Or a parts model!
Joeyg
Semi-Pro
Hey guys, I am a 53 year old 4.5 tennis player and own a successful business in California. I am getting ready to retire soon and am considering training every day/all day. I also have dual citizenship, as I was born in Malta to US parents. What do you think my chances are of playing Davis Cup or getting a top 20 ranking in the beautiful island country of Malta? Please get back to me soon. My decision hinges on your input.
goober
Legend
If being on the Davis Cup team gets you hot Maltese babes, I say go for it.
lovethetriangle
Rookie
Fine, let's remove all semantics that seem to irritate you. Pro is out. Davis cup is out. Top 20 in the country is out. I just want to dedicate my time into becoming be the best player I can be. Now I need a direction.
I would appreciate input on why you believe my tennis development is off, this is exactly the type of knowledge I've come here for.
I don't have pipe dreams. I'm not stupid, there's no way I'm risking my future for this. Sometimes you have to realize that some people just enjoy the process of doing something, without caring for the outcome. Now since not caring for the outcome is stupid in its own way, one must set some form of concrete goals. I love training, I love beating my body up at the gym, I love tennis. I've been blessed with minor success that promises more overtime with the privelage of hours of freetime everyday, so why not do what gives me the most thrill? If it was travelling, I'd travel. If it was cooking, I'd cook.
Again, I'm not asking you tell a blind man that it's possible for him to fly a plane. Just understand that circumstances a relative to every person/every place/every time and before squashing everything he says, gather more information.
My thread title (go pro) may be a bit deceiving, but then again, intrigue gets more replies, so if I lead anyone that direction, I apologize.
**** you joey. Although I must say, this was funny.
PimpMyGame
Hall of Fame
Never let anyone take your dreams from you. Challenge yourself, give it your best shot and above all enjoy yourself. Your only regrets will be not doing the things that you want to do.
Good luck!
Good luck!
Look, I think it's good that you've scaled back your bravado a great deal. But don't use revisionist history to paint me or the others who've chimed in as people who "squashed" your goals.
You are the one who said:
And by pro i mean top player + davis cup in a thirdworld country not known for tennis (philippines). Not Fed/nadal pro since that is next to impossible, however I'd like you to correct me if I am wrong.
Here you are speculating on what is possible and asking us to correct you. As I have said REPEATEDLY, I DON'T CARE if you purse anything, including flying with your arms. If it makes you happy, go for it. As I mentioned, I don't necessarily think pursuing unrealistic goals is bad. It may be psychologically rewarding (although inevitable failure can be tough to deal with) and you may learn from it.
If you ask my opinion, I'll tell you. Again, I simply keep saying that if you are serious about pursuing your goal, regardless of what it is, you should play tournaments, find out where you undisputably are(results are all that matters in tournament tennis, not anybody's opinion, including coaches) and set small goals from there.
As to your wrong direction, I was speaking in terms of the type of knowledge you are seeking and the way you are trying to get it. If you are that interested, email me in about 3 weeks and I will gladly discuss it with you! I have a few things to deal with in the real world at this moment!
LOL. And it's understandable. It's far from a nice thing to tell somebody they can't have a dream they really want. But if you happen to know it's impossible and the person is sincerely asking you the question, well, I think you should probably tell them. Yes, I think it's impossible. At the same time, you might offer alternatives (as some have here), or (and I am not opposed in any way to this as I said!) say, "but go ahead and try anyways!". Besides, if it's really the person's dream, I don't think they should not pursue it because people on the internet told them it's impossible. We are right, but that doesn't mean you should give up a dream just because we said so, UNLESS you see the truth of what we're saying. If not, give it a try and find out for yourself. I don't see the harm in that.
But we're also trying to give good advice. So if the person is saying, "well, I'll just show up at a runway show in Europe or a Sports Illustrated photo shoot (or whatever it is)....and because I'm so beautiful, they'll just let me in...". You might want to tell them, "hey look, I happen to know that you need an agent first, so how about we make that the first goal and to do that, we'll get some interviews and some photos taken....". Even for the 5'4 person, this would the right thing to do if they want to try to seriously pursue it. Even if you have unrealistic goals, you should probably try to take a realistic path to getting there. Going to the USO and jumping out of the stands with a racquet to issue a personal challenge to Nadal probably won't work, though I also encourage him to try this for my entertainment value alone....
So, I'm glad he's asking for nuts and bolts advice, about the process. If he's smart, he'll listen to Moz and others, find out where he really stands now and proceed from there.
PS. these are probably the worst modelling examples ever...I know nothign about modelling. Perhaps I'll go to the modelling warehouse and ask for advice, I once stood beside a nationally high ranked model you know, and while I lost the beauty battle, I held my own for a while.
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lovethetriangle
Rookie
I'm not accusing anyone of squashing my goals, because they haven't been squashed, maybe a new perspective, but definitely not squashed. All I am saying is that there's going to be many, many more persons seeking the same advice and all I ask you to do is handle them with care. Specially those that are younger, or with less experience. This might be the only place they've got to talk.
The internet has its pros (getting to seek advice from learned people that you would never have been able to even meet 5 years ago((specially for one that lives in a smaller country where knowledge with respect to particular fields is a lot less))), and cons (Talking to someone without full knowldege of their situation/past/present/background/blah blah blah blah). What you need to do is gather as much information as possible before jumping into a conclusion of impossibility or whatever else. The reason several folk (including myself in this thread) get into messy situations like this is because sometimes wording comes out wrong on the internet since you don't know my tone when i'm typing or how exactly i'm saying what i'm saying. I had no intentions to display 'bravado' as you said, I wanted to be as concise as possible but obvoiusly it came out wrongly and I apologize.
I came here because there's noone, I mean noone with the type of knowledge on this site in the Philippines. Obvoiusly I have to be wary of replies but that's my job. I know from you're tone, moz's tone, bungalo bill's tone, that you guys know exactly what you're talking about and I'm willing to listen 100%.
I will email you in three weeks, and thanks again for being gracious enough to deal with me despite the rough start. Hope all is well with you.
Cheers.
I
ichibanosaru
Guest
Good call - I know a few players who have done the same. :?
Take care and have a good one-
Joeyg
Semi-Pro
To all interested parties. I am leaving for Malta for an opportunity to try out for the Maltese Davis Cup team. I am a 53 year old 4.5 singles and doubles player in NorCal.
I have been training like a mad man and feel that the time is ripe for someone with my obvious talents to give this a shot. Wish me luck!
I have been training like a mad man and feel that the time is ripe for someone with my obvious talents to give this a shot. Wish me luck!
tennisdad65
Hall of Fame
Join the Vatican and play doubles with the Pope.
Then enroll Vatican city for the next Davis cup qualies.
I think that would be your best shot to play Davis cup :twisted:
Then enroll Vatican city for the next Davis cup qualies.
I think that would be your best shot to play Davis cup :twisted:
Costagirl
Banned
Take a trip to Saddlebrook and have Howard take a look at you personally - even for a solid week since you can afford him personally. If anyone will give you a realistic idea of where you stand in the US - he will. And he's seen it all...and you will see it all as many touring pros have homes and play there. They may even give you a hit
goober
Legend
I am sure there is a reason why you posted this almost 5 years later. Can't think of what it might be though. Kind of funny you giving advice now. The guy is now 30 years old and probably gave up his dream of playing Davis cup about 4 years ago.
