Tendinosis advice needed please

Virginia · Mar 2, 2009

For the last three months I've been off tennis - grr!

Went back yesterday and the arm (around the elbow) is sore again.:evil:

What I have is tendinosis rather than tendinitis.

I've decided to carry on playing anyway, but to try a more arm friendly racquet.

Since I have so many classic frames, I'd rather use one of those and not buy anything new.

The following have been suggested as possibilities and I'd welcome comments, as well as further suggestions.

Volkl V1 (I have the extended version), but I don't like it overly much
Dunlop Max 200G - I love these, but are they too demanding?
Fischer M Speed Pro No 1 - this one does appeal
PK Copper or Silver Aces - both have great credentials
POG - mine has a small grip and I prefer a 4 or 5 - could get it built up
Mad Raq - I also like this.

Comments and advice please - I'm getting pretty desperate!

Rorsach · Mar 2, 2009

Try one of the Snauwaert Touch frames when they arrive. They're great on the arm.
I usually have some soreness in my arm after playing as well, but i've hit with the Touch-H for a couple of hours last weekend and my arm feels great. Be sure to string it in the mid-range (24-25 Kilograms).

galain · Mar 2, 2009

Virginia

Some free naturopathic advice...

Avoid tomatoes, eggplant and capsicum for the next little while, as well as cows milk and red meat (sheep is ok). These foods seem to contribute to inflammation if you already have a case.

Mediherb is a company that I'm almost positive has a presence in NZ. Not sure if you'll be able to get any behind the counter at a health food store or not (it's a practitioner only range), but have a go. You may need to buy from a naturopath. They have a product called Boswellia Complex - which is a mix of frankincense, turmeric, ginger and celery seed. Without getting too biochemical, this is a great combination to address the causes of inflammation and should start to work within a week. Once the pain/discomfort goes, you shouldn't need to keep taking it. 2 tabs a 2x a day with food. Don't take it if you're also taking warfarin to thin your blood. And cut down on your sugar intake as well!

if you can afford it and can find some, SAMe is even better, but it's bloody expensive. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to chat off board.

plasma · Mar 3, 2009

Sorry Virginia,
I have to chime in here, none of the racquets you mentioned seemed like they were super dooper soft. Madraqs have almost no vibration though, so despite their normal flex, the quietnesss on the stringbed could be therapeutic, A really soft frame that comes to mind is the grey wilson matrix, also the fischer vacuum pros feel very soft, as is the Spectrum Comp, and wilson ceramic. The donnay wst cobalt ( and several others from that generation with the swollen serena like buttcap) is like butter. The F200 and 200g are soft but heavy, beware. The R22 is not necessarily soft but it is very forgiving and still a pro tool with great feel and no harshness. Puma winner is soft but strong, Jack Kramer staff (the red mid) is like rich creamery butter, but the richest, creamiest, not necessarily the softest but the smoothest...Kneissl masters or Kneissl lendl. I cannot tell a lie, they are like warm liquid butter, to die for.

davesep01 · Mar 3, 2009

Hi, I like to try different frames for fun, but became paranoid that they'd cause injury to the arm/shoulder. Out of that list I think the Copper Ace with an arm friendly string like PSGD would be OK. The 200g is nice but its heavy. Pog is nice too but stiff. Good luck , hope you get better fast.

Bud · Mar 3, 2009

Virginia said:
For the last three months I've been off tennis - grr!

Went back yesterday and the arm (around the elbow) is sore again.:evil:

What I have is tendinosis rather than tendinitis.

I've decided to carry on playing anyway, but to try a more arm friendly racquet.

Since I have so many classic frames, I'd rather use one of those and not buy anything new.

The following have been suggested as possibilities and I'd welcome comments, as well as further suggestions.

Volkl V1 (I have the extended version), but I don't like it overly much
Dunlop Max 200G - I love these, but are they too demanding?
Fischer M Speed Pro No 1 - this one does appeal
PK Copper or Silver Aces - both have great credentials
POG - mine has a small grip and I prefer a 4 or 5 - could get it built up
Mad Raq - I also like this.

Comments and advice please - I'm getting pretty desperate!

PK 5G Classic strung with NG... 'nuff said

dataseviltwin · Mar 3, 2009

Icy-hot...

I'm not sure any specific racket will make a lot of difference

That being said, something that worked for me... ICY HOT - Use every day for 2 weeks straight. They have compression sleeves as well. Then wean yourself off of it (only use after playing or when it hurts...).

I'm sure you've also tried various/sundry braces - one that seemed to work for me is called the biobrace (Google it...). These have rods in them that place pressure on the tendons, stretching them a bit. Between that and physical therapy (stretches with the wrist... similar to 12 ounce curls without using the elbow to bring the beverage up... bummer, eh?) have made my elbow feel much better.

Hope some of this works for you...

Will post pics of sticks in my collection when I get out of 50-post jail... got about 50 from Wright/Ditson to mid 90's...

Bud · Mar 3, 2009

dataseviltwin said:
I'm not sure any specific racket will make a lot of difference

That being said, something that worked for me... ICY HOT - Use every day for 2 weeks straight. They have compression sleeves as well. Then wean yourself off of it (only use after playing or when it hurts...).

I'm sure you've also tried various/sundry braces - one that seemed to work for me is called the biobrace (Google it...). These have rods in them that place pressure on the tendons, stretching them a bit. Between that and physical therapy (stretches with the wrist... similar to 12 ounce curls without using the elbow to bring the beverage up... bummer, eh?) have made my elbow feel much better.

Hope some of this works for you...

Will post pics of sticks in my collection when I get out of 50-post jail... got about 50 from Wright/Ditson to mid 90's...

The racquet/string will make a HUGE difference. Also, the compression bands are best used WHILE playing as they alleviate the pain. However, if your racquet/string is still irritating the tendon... the damage will continue and the compression band will merely mask the pain... while the damage continues.

Virginia... again try a PK 5G with full natural gut... and stringsavers if you have a tendency to break strings. The gut lasts for quite a long time and your arm will improve. In stock form, the 5G weighs about 11.6-11.8 oz, strung. Also, make sure you give the arm plenty of rest.

I think many of us who collect racquets love to try each one out for feel, nostalgia, etc. However, it's detrimental to your arm as you never adapt to one specific racquet... striking the sweet spot each hit. Therefore, when you're always missing the sweetspot or hitting slightly off-center... additional vibrations (or excess torque) will travel up your arm and further damage or irritate your tendons.

retrowagen · Mar 3, 2009

^ Good advice there.

Kirko · Mar 3, 2009

Virginia said:
For the last three months I've been off tennis - grr!

Went back yesterday and the arm (around the elbow) is sore again.:evil:

What I have is tendinosis rather than tendinitis.

I've decided to carry on playing anyway, but to try a more arm friendly racquet.

Since I have so many classic frames, I'd rather use one of those and not buy anything new.

The following have been suggested as possibilities and I'd welcome comments, as well as further suggestions.

Volkl V1 (I have the extended version), but I don't like it overly much
Dunlop Max 200G - I love these, but are they too demanding?
Fischer M Speed Pro No 1 - this one does appeal
PK Copper or Silver Aces - both have great credentials
POG - mine has a small grip and I prefer a 4 or 5 - could get it built up
Mad Raq - I also like this.

Comments and advice please - I'm getting pretty desperate!

200G for sure & not demanding very very arm friendly. it also has decent power so you have some exceleration on your shots when you need it.

Virginia · Mar 4, 2009

You guys are very helpful!

Thanks, everyone, for your very helpful advice and comments - much appreciated!

Rorsach said:
Try one of the Snauwaert Touch frames when they arrive. They're great on the arm.
I usually have some soreness in my arm after playing as well, but i've hit with the Touch-H for a couple of hours last weekend and my arm feels great. Be sure to string it in the mid-range (24-25 Kilograms).

Yes, I'll be sure to try that - thanks for the tip.

galain said:
<snip> Mediherb is a company that I'm almost positive has a presence in NZ. Not sure if you'll be able to get any behind the counter at a health food store or not (it's a practitioner only range), but have a go. You may need to buy from a naturopath. They have a product called Boswellia Complex. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to chat off board.

No presence here in New Zealand, but I have been going to an osteopath/naturopath, so I'll ask him if he can get it - he gets lots of stuff from overseas, so it shouldn't be a problem. Thanks for the advice.

plasma said:
Sorry Virginia, I have to chime in here, none of the racquets you mentioned seemed like they were super dooper soft. The F200 and 200g are soft but heavy, beware.

I've been playing with 12-13 oz frames all my life, so these won't be too heavy for me - what might be tricky is adjusting to the 83 si head size!

Bud said:
PK 5G Classic strung with NG... 'nuff said

I'm sure you're right, Bud, but I'd really prefer to use one of my 300 odd frames!

dataseviltwin said:
<snip>I'm sure you've also tried various/sundry braces - one that seemed to work for me is called the biobrace.

Yes, I'm investigating that one right now - it looks very promising and if it worked for you, it will hopefully work for me too.

Kirko said:
200G for sure & not demanding very very arm friendly. it also has decent power so you have some exceleration on your shots when you need it.

I love this racquet and since I have ten of them, have decided to give this a serious go! I mean, I have a lifetime supply,right?

I have four original 200G Pro's (Mcenroe signed), two ordinary 200G's, three later model (green) ones and one that I've sanded back and painted matt black. I rather like the idea of playing with a racquet that nobody can recognise except me! :twisted:

That's the one I hit with today and though it takes a bit of getting used to, I think it might turn out to be OK. No nasty after effects so far anyway!

Thanks again, everyone!

Deuce · Mar 4, 2009

davesep01 said:
Hi, I like to try different frames for fun, but became paranoid that they'd cause injury to the arm/shoulder. Out of that list I think the Copper Ace with an arm friendly string like PSGD would be OK. The 200g is nice but its heavy. Pog is nice too but stiff. Good luck , hope you get better fast.

^ I agree - the Copper Ace.
I also agree with what he wrote about the other frames he mentioned.

plasma · Mar 4, 2009

what about letting the racquet do the work?, let the racquet get tendinosis, not you. This may be a blessing in disguise. Some of the best timing and most fluid strokes exist when players are not trying to muscle the ball too much and are just lightly holding onto the racquet. bolleterri taught this to a little kid name Jimmy Arias, as well as some other little kids who grew up to be decent players...

Virginia · Mar 4, 2009

That's precisely why weight is good, isn't it? Use the body to walk into the shot, just use the arm as a guide, not as a weapon in itself. The racquet is the weapon and the heavier the better!

I will try the Copper Ace as well, Deuce, it's one of my favourites.

plasma · Mar 4, 2009

exactly Virginia, it's also about stroke style. Those with slow classical Sampras/Navratilova like strokes tend to be less injury prone than players like Roddick who ballistically attack the ball.

tennisdad65 · Mar 30, 2009

I got TE last year while using the POG. I bought a bunch of copper aces

and absolutely love them. TE dissapeared completely within a month after switching to the copper ace. I also have a silver ace, 2 POG, and a black ace, but I prefer the copper ace.

It may take you 2-3 sessions to get used to the low power and small headsize.

joe sch · Mar 30, 2009

Play a midsize or oversize woody strung loose with a soft syn gut or natural gut. Continue usage for 3..6 months of no pain. You should be OK after this therapy.

Virginia · Mar 30, 2009

joe, would a wood composite, like the PK Golden Ace, Prince Woodie, Wimbledon Pro, or similar, be a good one to use?

Someone I was talking to today suggested strengthening the arm by squeezing a tennis ball as often as possible and running the tennis ball over the arm and elbow as well. He said it worked for him.

samster · Mar 30, 2009

I would recommend one of these Mueller Elbow Sleeves. It is made out of neoprene and offers excellent support. For around $10, they have helped me play tennis and minimize recurrent elbow discomfort. Google and you will find it.

It felt wierd the first few times wearing it, but I am used to it now and won't take them off any time soon.

pshulam · Mar 31, 2009

Walmart has it (Mueller Elbow Sleeve).

pshulam · Mar 31, 2009

Virginia said:
joe, would a wood composite, like the PK Golden Ace, Prince Woodie, Wimbledon Pro, or similar, be a good one to use?

Someone I was talking to today suggested strengthening the arm by squeezing a tennis ball as often as possible and running the tennis ball over the arm and elbow as well. He said it worked for him.

Web MD has a few pages on tennis elbow exercises, including stretching and weight lifting to strengthen the arms.

Here is the link: Overview

Bud · Mar 31, 2009

Virginia said:
joe, would a wood composite, like the PK Golden Ace, Prince Woodie, Wimbledon Pro, or similar, be a good one to use?

Someone I was talking to today suggested strengthening the arm by squeezing a tennis ball as often as possible and running the tennis ball over the arm and elbow as well. He said it worked for him.

A wood composite is the second best therapy

If you have an XRC, that will work, too.

plasma · Apr 1, 2009

I'm always weary of medical advice from "someone I was talking to", sounds like irritation and not an underlying weakness may be to blame so exercises could make it worse...I love the feel of the 2 stripe 200g, but kneissl white star twin is the absolute best feeling racquet ever, transcendental orgasmic white austrian chocolate magic...

joe sch · Apr 2, 2009

Virginia said:
joe, would a wood composite, like the PK Golden Ace, Prince Woodie, Wimbledon Pro, or similar, be a good one to use?

Someone I was talking to today suggested strengthening the arm by squeezing a tennis ball as often as possible and running the tennis ball over the arm and elbow as well. He said it worked for him.

Sure, any wood composite or fiber filled racket would be much easier on your arm. Another excellent physical therapy tool is the body blade. They are outstanding for healing and increasing the strenth in your arm tendons and muscles.

plasma · Apr 6, 2009

How's the arm feeling Virginia? please give us an update on how these frames performed... Please resist the tempting urge to play with a stiff racquet....the madraq and prince woodie sound like awesome solutions....I remember the Prince Woodie, what a beauty... before there was internet, microwave, cell phones, (and everyone wanting to be rich, famous, etc. at everyone else's expense)... it was and is everything that made it so quality at the time and continues to make it great today, even in obscurity, what an awesome "time machine"...

I was a child when she was the backhand queen. What a sexy backhand!, she would just go wild like shteffi on the forehand, not holding back a single bit! raw, pure, energy....beautiful.

Bud · Apr 6, 2009

plasma said:
How's the arm feeling Virginia? please give us an update on how these frames performed... Please resist the tempting urge to play with a stiff racquet....the madraq and prince woodie sound like awesome solutions....I remember the Prince Woodie, what a beauty... before there was internet, microwave, cell phones, (and everyone wanting to be rich, famous, etc. at everyone else's expense)... it was and is everything that made it so quality at the time and continues to make it great today, even in obscurity, what an awesome "time machine"...

I was a child when she was the backhand queen. What a sexy backhand!, she would just go wild like shteffi on the forehand, not holding back a single bit! raw, pure, energy....beautiful.

God... she looks about 15 in that pic.

I actually saw her play when she was around this same age in 1984-85 or so at the Avon Championships on Marco Island Florida. Our HS band played at the event and we got to stay and watch the matches.

Tennis Dunce · Apr 7, 2009

Bud said:
PK 5G Classic strung with NG... 'nuff said

Virginia...you need to get yourself a 5g...'nuff said

Virginia · Apr 9, 2009

Thanks for your concern, plasma - I haven't got around to trying any of the wood composites as yet, as the arm is still aching quite a bit.

It's actually close as to whether I try playing and risk a possible delay to full recovery, or not play and drive myself quietly insane. On the whole, I favour the first option, so finding the best racquet is the first priority.

There is some interesting info on the internet about "trigger points" and the way you can self treat elbow problems (including the use of a tennis ball!), so I'm looking into more options. The Biobrace which I bought didn't help unfortunately.

I'll get this thing beat yet!

wao · Apr 9, 2009

Virginia said:
Thanks for your concern, plasma - I haven't got around to trying any of the wood composites as yet, as the arm is still aching quite a bit.

It's actually close as to whether I try playing and risk a possible delay to full recovery, or not play and drive myself quietly insane. On the whole, I favour the first option, so finding the best racquet is the first priority.

There is some interesting info on the internet about "trigger points" and the way you can self treat elbow problems (including the use of a tennis ball!), so I'm looking into more options. The Biobrace which I bought didn't help unfortunately.

I'll get this thing beat yet!

Virginia, went through the same issue 6mths ago. Didn't play for a while, tried to tape it and wear one of those arm bands. Finally went to the Dr and got some KICK cream and a shot of cortizone. All better back to playing 3-4 times a week. Good luck and wish you a speedy recovery.

pshulam · Apr 9, 2009

^^For me, the elbow pain started about 3 weeks ago. Wearing an elbow brace did not help. I stopped playing for 2 weeks and started to do arm stretching and strengthening with 3-lb weights. Last week, I played 2 hours with a softer string without experiencing any significant pain except for some minor discomfort. My elbow pain, though not completely subsided, is manageable. I plan to play tomorrow to test the water. I truly believe that the strengthening exercises do help.

pshulam · Apr 10, 2009

wao said:
... Finally went to the Dr and got some KICK cream and a shot of cortizone. All better back to playing 3-4 times a week. Good luck and wish you a speedy recovery.

What's KICK cream? Medication only alleviates pain temporarily.

robby c · Apr 11, 2009

I've had elbow pain on the inside of the elbow on and off for a year.
Anti-inflammation pills work to prevent imflammation. So take a normal dose before you hit the courts.
Just use ice packs afterwards.
Rest and exercises to strengthen the arm muscles will help.
I dropped the tension in my racquets by about 5 lbs. I string the crosses about 2 lbs tighter to keep the main strings from moving around.
Good luck.
Robby C

pshulam · Apr 11, 2009

^that sounds like a reasonable approach. Thanks for the tips about making the crosses 2 lbs higher. My racket is strung with Prince premiere 17 @55 lb (both main and cross) and the strings move around quite a bit.

plasma · Apr 12, 2009

so many people have problems because $hitty cheap graphite makes racquets too stiff. The companies aren't skimping, Prince, Dunlop and Wilson just used up the good stuff in the 80's on millions of Prostaffs, 200g's and POG's. If someone could figure out a way to take the pain out of the game (for me it's emotional pain watching players with poor form), then tennis would improve and injuries would lessen...

robby c · Apr 13, 2009

pshulam said:
^that sounds like a reasonable approach. Thanks for the tips about making the crosses 2 lbs higher. My racket is strung with Prince premiere 17 @55 lb (both main and cross) and the strings move around quite a bit.

Glad to help.
Robby C

plasma · Apr 13, 2009

hybrid tensions are risky business...

Elwood · Apr 24, 2009

when you say Copper Ace are talking about the one from the 80's. That was my first racket and I still have it. I didn't think anyone still used it.

plasma · Apr 24, 2009

sure...why not?, has similar specs to the greatest racquets ever...yes the original copper Ace!!! a true mid...
Virginia; (forum genuflects) we await your return, our queen. A friend told me that the exercises are easy to get lazy about but a big part of the soft tissue recovery. He's the only one who beat me this year (6-1, 6-2, his first win in several of our meetings) and is in perfect shape, so he must know something. My boxing coach used to make us hold 3 lb. weights for 5 minutes straight with only our fingertips (or until we dropped them); this would work the small forearm muscles to failure and give them an intense "burn" (usage)...cant say I have too many tennis issues with the arm, don't know if this is related???

former boxing coach was a (former mob enforcer) vicious sadist and a very violent (although sometimes the most kind, sweet and loving man). He had a thin cane, it was very thin and made of bamboo or something, I still hate that thing; as you were boxing or training he would whack you with it to make sure that your rear hand was touching your face and rear elbow was tight to your body; when you are covered in sweat, getting touched and marked up by that thing was sooooo torturesome!!!!I had a mean left hook and became a co-trainer. I remember a kid with heavy developmental disabilities that my coach taught for free (he had deep facial deformities and developmental and speech handicaps but was extremely strong, good natured, and athletic)...I remember walking in one day and seeing this kid getting whacked with the cane and screamed at, for letting his arm leave his body...what would people walking in off the street think I said to myself??? I have trained down syndrome and mentally challenged youth to be great 5.0+ tennis players and coaching assistants, don't plan to have kids, but it's that type of rewarding feeling...never whacked anyone with a cane though...not my cup of tea...

Hannah19 · May 24, 2009

Mad Raq's available!

Hi Virginia,
I might be able to help you with a Mad Raq Ceramic (4 1/2).
Brand new dead stock item but in this gripsize only.

Drop me a line: mozart19@zonnet.nl

regards, Hans (Netherlands)

tennisdad65 · May 24, 2009

Elwood said:
when you say Copper Ace are talking about the one from the 80's. That was my first racket and I still have it. I didn't think anyone still used it.

thats my main stick..

I have tried the recent wilson's, recent prince's, recent head's, as well as POG 4 stripes, PS 85 and a bunch of others.. but nothing comes close to the copper ace for me.

joe sch · May 25, 2009

Virginia,

The key is loose soft string. Try natural gut on a racket with a dense stringing pattern, but Not MadRaq, that pattern plays stiff. Try stringing at 45 lbs. If you use this tension on the 18x20 max 200g with natural gut, it will be very soft and flexible. You will then just need accurate strokes to keep hitting the sweet spot. If this is a problem, do the same setup on an oversize head. Technique has alot to do with injury ... a good pro could probably point out your flaws or just notice whats hurting on your strokes and try to correct the technique.

Good luck,
Joe

plasma · May 25, 2009

hi Joe,
great suggestion on tension, technique and natural gut. Many players try to extend the elbow instead of locking it in place on the 1hbh and opening the shoulder like a garage door.
I have two madraqs in storage. I used them 15 years ago and was embarrased to start using them in college. Why was I such a wimp about racquets??? It's the ignorant belief in pretty paint job$, even gets good players. Anyways, I recall both madraqs feeling very dampened and cushioned, like the ps 6.1 classic, before it ever came out, so your comment puzzled me.
Is there a list out there of other obscure companies that made great frames?,other than 80's tennis and your site both of which are superb? I remember the lgogs but not the names, small quality companies were respected back then,
thanks for being one of the biggest supporters of our movement, your advice is always gold... you are a true expert on vintage racquets, probably one of the most knowledgeable in the world.

joe sch · May 25, 2009

plasma said:
hi Joe,
great suggestion on tension, technique and natural gut. Many players try to extend the elbow instead of locking it in place on the 1hbh and opening the shoulder like a garage door.
I have two madraqs in storage. I used them 15 years ago and was embarrased to start using them in college. Why was I such a wimp about racquets??? It's the ignorant belief in pretty paint job$, even gets good players. Anyways, I recall both madraqs feeling very dampened and cushioned, like the ps 6.1 classic, before it ever came out, so your comment puzzled me.
Is there a list out there of other obscure companies that made great frames?,other than 80's tennis and your site both of which are superb? I remember the lgogs but not the names, small quality companies were respected back then,
thanks for being one of the biggest supporters of our movement, your advice is always gold... you are a true expert on vintage racquets, probably one of the most knowledgeable in the world.

Hey Plaz Man,

Thanks for the kind words.
There are just soo many awesome classic rackets and most of them play great. I need to get my camera in action and start taking alot more pictures of some of the oddball classics I have ageing in my inventory. Keep spreading the good word

Cheers,
Joe

heninfan99 · Jun 21, 2009

I would demo the Head Titanium Ti.S6 Racquet and the Head Titanium Ti.S5 Comfort Zone Racquet.
Also, this sounds silly, but in between points and whenever there's a pause in play I don't hold the racquet with my racquet hand. It probably adds up to 15 minutes of rest for your main arm. When my doubles partner is serving I don't grip the racquet until he starts his service motion.

Virginia said:
For the last three months I've been off tennis - grr!

Went back yesterday and the arm (around the elbow) is sore again.:evil:

What I have is tendinosis rather than tendinitis.

I've decided to carry on playing anyway, but to try a more arm friendly racquet.

Since I have so many classic frames, I'd rather use one of those and not buy anything new.

The following have been suggested as possibilities and I'd welcome comments, as well as further suggestions.

Volkl V1 (I have the extended version), but I don't like it overly much
Dunlop Max 200G - I love these, but are they too demanding?
Fischer M Speed Pro No 1 - this one does appeal
PK Copper or Silver Aces - both have great credentials
POG - mine has a small grip and I prefer a 4 or 5 - could get it built up
Mad Raq - I also like this.

Comments and advice please - I'm getting pretty desperate!

Tendinosis advice needed please

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