Federer is taking advantage of the situation because...

Why does nobody play serve and volley anymore?
I think it is strange that nobody asks this question or just assume the players are too lazy, dumb or whatever.
If s&v is so succesfull why do players choose to play from the baseline. Do you really believe they are this stupid? Some players in the top 20 have good enough volley's, yet they choose to stay back and lose slam after slam. Unlike some people here I believe there is a good reason for this. The return of the opponent is just too good. Just look at Federer he always plays into the opponents feet when they approach the net, the ball jumps up giving him enough time to hit the passing shot. Other players do exactly the same. Returners nowadays are smarter, they don't go for the direct winner but let the s&v player play a difficult volley which enables them to run to the ball and hit the winner. I think a really good player like Sampras might still be able to win a lot of slams, but he is something special. Other players like Krajicek, Ivanisevic, Rafter, Becker etc. would not stand a chance in this field.

Couldn't agree more w/ this point. It seems some bitter Samp-****s believe S&V to be a superior game style. Though S&V can be an effective tactic to mix in every once in a while, the time has come and gone where a purely S&V player can dominate the men's game. Slower surfaces, better returners, new racquet technologies, have all made S&V more difficult to do on a consistent basis and be effective. This is the point which 90s ****s either fail to realize or just plain ignore.
 
Couldn't agree more w/ this point. It seems some bitter Samp-****s believe S&V to be a superior game style. Though S&V can be an effective tactic to mix in every once in a while, the time has come and gone where a purely S&V player can dominate the men's game. Slower surfaces, better returners, new racquet technologies, have all made S&V more difficult to do on a consistent basis and be effective. This is the point which 90s ****s either fail to realize or just plain ignore.

Sampras is not S&V, Sampras is all-court and the best of all time.
 

ac3111

Professional
There is a rule/law in sports... the next generations run faster, jump higher and compete better. I won't say necessarily they have more technique but they are more difficult to beat.
I was a Sampras fan and was watching tennis in the late 90's very early 00's.
I do not know about variety in the 80's or early 90's but serve and volley against players that could hit numerous passing shots from the baseline could be a recipe for disaster. I don't think that many in the 90's had the Sampras serve and volley skills.
The variety may not exist but that does not mean that the striking level of players is not improved..
You may not be able to see it because you can't watch Djokovic Murray Del potro playing against the late 90's players...
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
So many people on here, like azzuri refered to, i think have only been watching tennis since 2003 or so....I don't want to generalise too much
because I know many have watched more than me (i watched since agassi 92)

Point: they just don't "get" what grafselesfan and myself have been saying:

The lack of variety in todays game is a disappointment

That's it..TWers.

try refuting that statement comparing todays game to the 90's.

rafa is just a version of muster with a superior forehand.

I laugh with rafa's ridiculous carry on these days....get on the court and play
the best you can and stop whining.

because today's tennis is heading towards short number 1reigns and rafa types in wheelchairs by 25. del po will be another one I reckon.

Fed "owned" henman? oh really? is that before or after the walking stick?

this post is not trying the knock fed's achievements completely...I'm just
trying to put it in perspective.

while you have a point regarding variety as far as volleying is concerned;I'd absolutely disgaree with the bold part; nadal does EVERYTHING better than muster , forehand,backhand,movement,offense,return of serve,passing,adapting to surfaces etc etc. Its not even close
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
You noticed the OP posted in 2004, and you replying in 2009? :)
It is not even funny any more. some a$$hole resurrected a 5 year old thread and people start posting without even looking.

He's a hypocrite...discredit TMF while praising his favorite player[Graf], who took the advantage of Seles's stabbing in the 90's. Graf was the luckiest player ever and a great opportunist.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
So many people on here, like azzuri refered to, i think have only been watching tennis since 2003 or so....I don't want to generalise too much
because I know many have watched more than me (i watched since agassi 92)

Point: they just don't "get" what grafselesfan and myself have been saying:

The lack of variety in todays game is a disappointment.

That's it..TWers.

try refuting that statement comparing todays game to the 90's.

rafa is just a version of muster with a superior forehand.

I laugh with rafa's ridiculous carry on these days....get on the court and play
the best you can and stop whining.

because today's tennis is heading towards short number 1reigns and rafa types in wheelchairs by 25. del po will be another one I reckon.

Fed "owned" henman? oh really? is that before or after the walking stick?

this post is not trying the knock fed's achievements completely...I'm just
trying to put it in perspective.

A new rule comes in soccer that you are no longer allowed to head the ball into the net...can't use the head.

Argentina and Brazil win the next 10 world cups and claim SA players are
inheritly better than europeans....

strange analogy I know..but that's what i see in tennis world.

Fed is the undisputed GOAT of baseliners

No, Henman owned Fed LOL. How many Slams did Henman win, remind me?

Serve and volley? Guess Sampras should have owned Federer, right? Sad that he lost to him.

Talking about Rafa in a wheelchair, find out how long the serve and loser err serve and volleyer Dent spent in bed and how many surgeries he had. The match that Dent lost recently was so painful to watch. Passed over and over again, yet kept moving in. That is not variety, that is inability to learn from mistakes.
 
D

Deleted member 21996

Guest
He's a hypocrite...discredit TMF while praising his favorite player[Graf], who took the advantage of Seles's stabbing in the 90's. Graf was the luckiest player ever and a great opportunist.

no. you see.. hypocrisy is pretending to be objective while refering to a certain player as "The Mighty..."... that my dear, is being hypocrite!

so in terms of hypocrite rankings you are well above him...
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
no. you see.. hypocrisy is pretending to be objective while refering to a certain player as "The Mighty..."... that my dear, is being hypocrite!

so in terms of hypocrite rankings you are well above him...

Who are you to determine I'm objective or not? I don't give a rat ass how you feel.

grafselesfan is ahypocrite. deal with it!
 
D

Deleted member 21996

Guest
Who are you to determine I'm objective or not? I don't give a rat ass how you feel.

grafselesfan is ahypocrite. deal with it!

nice to meet you too.

have a nice life with your head stuck up Roger Federer's derriere!
 

Omega_7000

Legend
The lack of variety in todays game is a disappointment.

You are over-simplifying by not taking into account todays court speeds and racquet technologies (you know the technology that helps rafa hit winners from 10 feet behind the baseline) & superior athleticism of the players.... S&V will not hold up due to these combinations of factors. The game evolves and changes...There is variety in todays game too. You just fail to see it because you seem to be too attached with S&V.
 

GasquetGOAT

Hall of Fame
nice to meet you too.

have a nice life with your head stuck up Roger Federer's derriere!

hehe Sir Gorecki, I see you're having a nice life too attacking everyone who has his/her head stuck up either Federer's or Nadal's derriere, whilst having your own head stuck up Sampras' derriere.

After all this is what we are here for.:twisted:
 
D

Deleted member 21996

Guest
hehe Sir Gorecki, I see you're having a nice life too attacking everyone who has his/her head stuck up either Federer's or Nadal's derriere, whilst having your own head stuck up Sampras' derriere.

After all this is what we are here for.:twisted:

how wrong are we GG... how wrong are we...

ps:by we i mean you of course!
 

ksbh

Banned
Now Sir Gorecki is a Sampras fan? Next you'll be telling us that Breakpoint writes intelligent posts! ROFL X 200!

hehe Sir Gorecki, I see you're having a nice life too attacking everyone who has his/her head stuck up either Federer's or Nadal's derriere, whilst having your own head stuck up Sampras' derriere.

After all this is what we are here for.:twisted:
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
I feel that the competition this year is not what it should be at top ten level in men's tennis. Most of the players have been on and off form and suffering injuries to really challenge Federer. The main point for me is that everyone plays the same way, which is why Federer stands out so much.

Of course, he is an incredible talent. But for me this has been the worst crop of top ten players I have seen with hardly any variety and no real netrushers or similar all court players to challenge Federer. Nor are there any players who really use the serve as a skill like a specialist fast bowler in cricket.

I think the Masters event was a case in point. Coria, Gaudio, Henman, Moya are not good enough at that level consistently. They have too many 'off' days for me.

The level Becker, Lendl, Edberg, Agassi, Wilander etc around 1990 was much higher.

Sure players now may be more physical, but that has been sacrificed for an extreme lack of technical and tactical nous. By the way, tennis around 1990 was extremely physical with lots of 4 hour close matches in slams as these guys were well matched.

These are my opinions. Whats yours?

This is just another 'weak era' post. I don't believe that the early 1990s had better competition than today, or much better at least. You're telling me that 30 year old Lendl, terribly erratic Andre, a passed his prime Wilander, 1 slam wonder chang, and S&V Edberg were top competition but Federer, Nadal, Del Potro, and Murray some how aren't?
 
This is just another 'weak era' post. I don't believe that the early 1990s had better competition than today, or much better at least. You're telling me that 30 year old Lendl, terribly erratic Andre, a passed his prime Wilander, 1 slam wonder chang, and S&V Edberg were top competition but Federer, Nadal, Del Potro, and Murray some how aren't?

To be fair, it was the troll GrafSelesFan who bumped this 5 year old thread.
 

flying24

Banned
So many people on here, like azzuri refered to, i think have only been watching tennis since 2003 or so....I don't want to generalise too much
because I know many have watched more than me (i watched since agassi 92)

Point: they just don't "get" what grafselesfan and myself have been saying:

The lack of variety in todays game is a disappointment.

That's it..TWers.

try refuting that statement comparing todays game to the 90's.

rafa is just a version of muster with a superior forehand.

I laugh with rafa's ridiculous carry on these days....get on the court and play
the best you can and stop whining.

because today's tennis is heading towards short number 1reigns and rafa types in wheelchairs by 25. del po will be another one I reckon.

Fed "owned" henman? oh really? is that before or after the walking stick?

this post is not trying the knock fed's achievements completely...I'm just
trying to put it in perspective.

A new rule comes in soccer that you are no longer allowed to head the ball into the net...can't use the head.

Argentina and Brazil win the next 10 world cups and claim SA players are
inheritly better than europeans....

strange analogy I know..but that's what i see in tennis world.

Fed is the undisputed GOAT of baseliners

I think that is a good accessment. Well I consider Nadal much better than Muster but other than that I agree with pretty much everything.

Federer does not have to face the variety that greats of past generations did. Everyone plays his game which he does better than everyone (other than Nadal on clay) so that works out beautifully for him. He is a great player of course but would still face a tougher challenge with the varieties of playing styles in the 90s or 80s.
 
D

Deleted member 21996

Guest
Well at least for the few encounters I had with him, he was.

yeah.. he his kinda pretensious with that "i feel like beating senseless fan girls" ways. but you gott'a give that gorecki guy that he at least beats left and right... and i heard that he even does have some nice talks to sensible posters like Zagor, Ksbh, Alafter and others, and even in the best moments, he agrees with that fellow Gasquet Goat (when GG turns off his Federete mode).. :)


like when he agrees Nalbandian has the best 2hbh on tour now...:)
 

P_Agony

Banned
You noticed the OP posted in 2004, and you replying in 2009? :)
It is not even funny any more. some a$$hole resurrected a 5 year old thread and people start posting without even looking.

Actually I didn't notice it, thanks for letting me know. Who bumped this thing?
 
why would u kids revive a 5 yr old thread?

If by 'u kids' you mean the great and all knowing GrafSelesFan....

Actually I didn't notice it, thanks for letting me know. Who bumped this thing?

Why, the trolling king of era-bashers, of course. :roll:

And all these years later he is still taking advantage of it.

I hope the mods keep with the rule of banning those who bump old threads in order to start flame wars.
 
Last edited:
Sampras is not S&V, Sampras is all-court and the best of all time.

Very well said. I always laugh when people talk about Sampras being only a S&V. He of course is not just a baseliner and came to net alot, but he was a true all court master. He played from all parts of the court, he understood when to play where, how to make the transition. He could rally with anyone from the baseline and he also could attack with the best of them. I am fairly certain many TW posters have never seen him play at his peak.
 

VivalaVida

Banned
Very well said. I always laugh when people talk about Sampras being only a S&V. He of course is not just a baseliner and came to net alot, but he was a true all court master. He played from all parts of the court, he understood when to play where, how to make the transition. He could rally with anyone from the baseline and he also could attack with the best of them. I am fairly certain many TW posters have never seen him play at his peak.
and I am fairly certain that the two of you have your heads stuck so far up Pete's derriere that you cant watch and appreciate Federer's game and talent to save your lives.
 

NamRanger

G.O.A.T.
and I am fairly certain that the two of you have your heads stuck so far up Pete's derriere that you cant watch and appreciate Federer's game and talent to save your lives.


Regardless of what you think about gsf, the above quoted statement about what he/she said is true. Sampras from 91-95 could play from anywhere on the court.
 
This is just another 'weak era' post. I don't believe that the early 1990s had better competition than today, or much better at least. You're telling me that 30 year old Lendl, terribly erratic Andre, a passed his prime Wilander, 1 slam wonder chang, and S&V Edberg were top competition but Federer, Nadal, Del Potro, and Murray some how aren't?

Federer's competition has gotten better in the last 2 and a half years which is why he is far less dominant now than he was. Federer's competition up until mid 2007 was horrendous though. Pre pubescent Nadal, Roddick, past his prime Hewitt, past his prime Safin, mid 30s Agassi, slam choker Nalbandian, the poor mans Kafelnikov- Davydenko.

Sampras's competition wasnt that good in 97 and 98. I will give you that. The period where you had Rios, Moya, and Kafelnikov each getting to #1 was indeed a very weak blip where Sampras himself faced weak competition briefly. However from 1990-1996 Sampras faced Becker still playing really well, Edberg playing really well from 1990-1993, Courier a big force that whole time, Agassi a big force that whole time (other than 93 maybe), Ivanisevic a lethal opponent at Wimbledon, Muster and Bruguera in his way also on clay, Chang a very tough opponent on hard courts, Kafelnikov a solid foe on slower surfaces. From 99-2002 he faced Rafter at his best, Agassi making his late career surge and playing some of his best tennis ever, Kuerten at his best, young Hewitt who reached his peak in the early 2000s, young Safin who also reached his peak in the early 2000s.
 

VivalaVida

Banned
Regardless of what you think about gsf, the above quoted statement about what he/she said is true. Sampras from 91-95 could play from anywhere on the court.
I agree with that. Sampras was an all court player. There is no doubt, he was a solid baseliner who could really go for winners when he wanted to. His forehand was really powerful and penetrative.
 
and I am fairly certain that the two of you have your heads stuck so far up Pete's derriere that you cant watch and appreciate Federer's game and talent to save your lives.

Nobody on this thread has disputed Federer is a great player. Just because some of us dont think he is the greatest ever doesnt mean we are denying he is a great player. This thread is about the competition he had during the height of his dominance from late 2003-early 2007, and the lack of diversity of playing styles in the mens game that Federer and everyone else faces today compared to the 90s, 80s, and many eras past. Those are both reasonable arguments and things to discuss.
 

JeMar

Legend
Of course Sampras was Serve and Volley. Didn't you see.... oh I forgot, you've never watched him play. :lol:

To be fair, Sampras in his prime was much more of an all-court player. He didn't start "forcing the issue" each and every point until later in his career. One of the things that Paul Annacone did for Pete was making him much more aggressive and really help him develop a need to impose his own athleticism on his opponents. Before Annacone, Pete was much more likely to try to beat his opponents with their own game.
 
To be fair, Sampras in his prime was much more of an all-court player. He didn't start "forcing the issue" each and every point until later in his career. One of the things that Paul Annacone did for Pete was making him much more aggressive and really help him develop a need to impose his own athleticism on his opponents. Before Annacone, Pete was much more likely to try to beat his opponents with their own game.

1998 was the first year Sampras started to serve and volley on nearly every first or second serve. If anyone watches his matches up until 1997 and you will see him staying back on his serve alot outside of grass, especialy the 2nd serve. Sampras actually regressed when he became more of just a serve/volleyer and less of a superbly balanced all courter. I think this was Annacones doing and he tried to import too much of his own game style on Sampras in this case.

The cluelessness of JamesBlakefan#1 is nothing new. His posts as usual offer no insight into anything other than as a good laugh.
 

VivalaVida

Banned
1998 was the first year Sampras started to serve and volley on nearly every first or second serve. If anyone watches his matches up until 1997 and you will see him staying back on his serve alot outside of grass, especialy the 2nd serve. Sampras actually regressed when he became more of just a serve/volleyer and less of a superbly balanced all courter. I think this was Annacones doing and he tried to import too much of his own game style on Sampras in this case.

Yes good post. Sampras played it really smart towards the end of his career. I remember someone famous say that "Pete's serve and volley at wimbledon was a hell of an acting job" I hope I didnt butcher the quote to much.
 

edberg505

Legend
Yes good post. Sampras played it really smart towards the end of his career. I remember someone famous say that "Pete's serve and volley at wimbledon was a hell of an acting job" I hope I didnt butcher the quote to much.

That was the great Mary Carillo.
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
Of course Sampras was Serve and Volley. Didn't you see.... oh I forgot, you've never watched him play. :lol:

It depends on the time period that you are referring to. Sampras was more of an all court player during the early 90s, then he was at the end of his career.
 

tennis_hand

Hall of Fame
I feel that the competition this year is not what it should be at top ten level in men's tennis. Most of the players have been on and off form and suffering injuries to really challenge Federer. The main point for me is that everyone plays the same way, which is why Federer stands out so much.

Of course, he is an incredible talent. But for me this has been the worst crop of top ten players I have seen with hardly any variety and no real netrushers or similar all court players to challenge Federer. Nor are there any players who really use the serve as a skill like a specialist fast bowler in cricket.

I think the Masters event was a case in point. Coria, Gaudio, Henman, Moya are not good enough at that level consistently. They have too many 'off' days for me.

The level Becker, Lendl, Edberg, Agassi, Wilander etc around 1990 was much higher.

Sure players now may be more physical, but that has been sacrificed for an extreme lack of technical and tactical nous. By the way, tennis around 1990 was extremely physical with lots of 4 hour close matches in slams as these guys were well matched.

These are my opinions. Whats yours?

whatever you say doesn't change the fact. a win is a win, a slam is a slam.
Gaudio has a FO, but u don't have. but u still can argue that you "may" be better than Gaudio. oh ya!!

the other players couldn't play well, couldn't keep up the levels, and now these idiotic people start to downplay the winner's success.
better go fly kite.
 

mandy01

G.O.A.T.
grafselesfan get going to the former pro player section and STOP reviving old threads.Gosh,you're such an unbelievable troll.
 

Elegant_Roger

New User
Nobody on this thread has disputed Federer is a great player. Just because some of us dont think he is the greatest ever doesnt mean we are denying he is a great player. This thread is about the competition he had during the height of his dominance from late 2003-early 2007, and the lack of diversity of playing styles in the mens game that Federer and everyone else faces today compared to the 90s, 80s, and many eras past. Those are both reasonable arguments and things to discuss.

Are you able to fathom the fact that Federer and Nadal dominating does not necessarily mean the other top players are worse than the top players of the past? Logic should tell us that even Sampras, Becker, Wilander, Connors, and Edberg wouldn't be taking most of the slams from them. Therefore, the logical extension of that fact is that it is possible players like Djokovic, Murray, Roddick, Nalbandian, Hewitt, etc etc are as good as those top players of the past who won more.

Let me give you a hypothetical example that proves my point. Let's say there was a 100% perfect tennis player. That player is playing in an era with ALL the greats in the history of tennis (Federer, Nadal, Sampras, Agassi, Laver, Borg, McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Rosewall, Wilander, Edberg, Becker etc etc). Since that player is 100% perfect, he would still dominate and win virtually every slam even against that competition. Your logic would say that all of those all time greats aren't any good. But of course, we know that not to be true. This example shows clearly that the level of dominance of a player does not inherently indicate a weakness of his rivals.
 
D

Deleted member 21996

Guest
Are you able to fathom the fact that Federer and Nadal dominating does not necessarily mean the other top players are worse than the top players of the past? Logic should tell us that even Sampras, Becker, Wilander, Connors, and Edberg wouldn't be taking most of the slams from them. Therefore, the logical extension of that fact is that it is possible players like Djokovic, Murray, Roddick, Nalbandian, Hewitt, etc etc are as good as those top players of the past who won more.

Let me give you a hypothetical example that proves my point. Let's say there was a 100% perfect tennis player. That player is playing in an era with ALL the greats in the history of tennis (Federer, Nadal, Sampras, Agassi, Laver, Borg, McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Rosewall, Wilander, Edberg, Becker etc etc). Since that player is 100% perfect, he would still dominate and win virtually every slam even against that competition. Your logic would say that all of those all time greats aren't any good. But of course, we know that not to be true. This example shows clearly that the level of dominance of a player does not inherently indicate a weakness of his rivals.

using this fine logic, Ivanovic, Kirilenko, Azrenka et. al. should be blasting Kim Clijsters of court...

guess what sport...
 

Steve132

Professional
using this fine logic, Ivanovic, Kirilenko, Azrenka et. al. should be blasting Kim Clijsters of court...

guess what sport...

How does this conclusion follow from Elegant_Roger's argument? Are Ivanovic, Kirilenko and Azarenka dominating the WTA in the way that Federer and Nadal dominate the men's tour?
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
How does this conclusion follow from Elegant_Roger's argument? Are Ivanovic, Kirilenko and Azarenka dominating the WTA in the way that Federer and Nadal dominate the men's tour?

LOL...not to mention these WTA players are competing in the same era.

Elegant Roger is comparing Nole, Murray, Hewitt or Roddick etc. to the players in the past 10 and 20 years ago, and it’s logical to say these players are just as good as Lendl, Sampras, Mac, Agassi, Edberg and co. The problem is TMF and Nadal are just head and shoulder better than them.
 

justafa

New User
grafselesfan get going to the former pro player section and STOP reviving old threads.Gosh,you're such an unbelievable troll.

grafselesfan is one of the most knowledgeable posters on these boards. I enjoy reading his insightful and intelligent commentary very much. You owe grafselesfan an apology for your unprovoked derogatory remarks.
 
When anyone puts a player's name in their user name or sig. It usually means that they are a troll, or a try hard.. Let's not be silly about this.. People that do this are not fans, but fanatics....

Being fanatical about anything means that you are way above the norm of normal human behavior...
 

fed_rulz

Hall of Fame
When anyone puts a player's name in their user name or sig. It usually means that they are a troll, or a try hard.. Let's not be silly about this.. People that do this are not fans, but fanatics....

Being fanatical about anything means that you are way above the norm of normal human behavior...

says the guy who has "Darth" in his username :confused: - way to generalize dude. oh, btw, hope you enjoy getting torn to pieces by the some posters here for this post :)
 
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