WORLD NO. 1 (by year)

krosero

Legend
To cherry-pick like this is just poor arguing by krosero:
Here you quote yourself saying that the verdict for Wilander is in for you, then asking Hood for a co-#1 because the question is very close.

You call it cherry-picking on my part to question the first statement about the verdict, and not to give you credit for the second part (about seeing a close race).

But Borgforever, there was no contradiction there, and I never said there was. You were very clear in that post: your private verdict was for Wilander, but you asked Hood for a co-#1 because you thought the race was close, and you thought co-#1 was a reasonable position.

Nothing wrong there. Everything makes sense.

The contradiction I pointed out was that you picked Mats as your private choice, then several pages later said that WILANDER HAD NEVER BEEN YOUR CHOICE. Those were the statements I laid out yesterday as contradictory.

That's where the contradiction was. I have never dismissed the idea that you were open-minded about the race for #1. I wasn't saying that you were being close-minded about that year or any other year. I was asking about two statements about your private opinion that contradict each other.
 
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krosero

Legend
Don't take this the wrong way krosero -- I severely dislike this, but it shows when it comes to several of the 1970s years details. You really had to live through it to understand.

Pc1 wrote in one of the early posts in this thread that clearly WCT was bigger than Philly in 1976 and Hellberg did too. Looking at the draws the difference is not so obvious -- in fact you could argue that Philly had a deeper, stronger draw.

But what one forgets then is that the WCT-scene included a qualification tourney-series with several more players included in groups to battle for points and qualification for the finals, way more than could ever fit into Philly that year, and the inconsistency that Ashe in 1975 and Mac in 1983 gets full cred for WCT in 1983 against Wilander and Jimbo who didn't participate in those years while Borg's 1976 WCT, which was regarded as bigger than Philly just as an event, a near major in fact...

Such little details. You get a lot correct but there's small details that are mistaken upon that become bigger ones...
Actually those facts about WCT are well-known. It's just that I agree more with Cyborg's emphasis on draws, and with his criticism that you (BF) tend to look at events as how important they were seen at the time, which as he said is far more ambiguous (less precise) -- certainly more prone to emotional judgments. Our "regard" for the importance of events is highly charged with tradition and emotion.

I don't discount what you or anyone else might say about who participated in WCT, who did not, etc. I just don't see in your paragraph above what the contradiction is. It's not really clear but you seem to be saying that Ashe and McEnroe get full credit for their Dallas wins, while Borg does not. But he does. Of course he should get full credit.

I think a lot of this stems from what I consider a poor analogy with 1975. The question is asked, why does Ashe get #1 over Connors with Dallas and Wimbledon, but Borg does not get #1 over Connors with those same tournament victories (and everything else in the year more or less similar).

But Ashe has 2 big victories over no big victories for Connors -- a fact Cyborg has pointed out more than once. That's why Ashe can get that year. How can you give it to someone who doesn't even have one big win?

In '76 Connors has that -- a Slam (which by itself would put him in the race) and another at Philly. Two big victories, compared to none in '75.

I mean, the analogy between '75 and '76 fits as far as Ashe and Borg are concerned, but in Jimmy's column the whole analogy breaks down.

It's such a huge difference. One major can salvage a year, make it completely different from a Slam-less year (eg, Pete in '96).
 
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Borgforever

Hall of Fame
In that case you're correct and I did express myself wrong there.

That's completely fault for saying Wilander is, or implying that, Wilander is my personal top choice for 1983.

To clarify my position, and what I should've written, writing ahead of thinking it through:

From when I watched them live in 1983 and on TV, following everything, I thought Mats had the best calendar year, remember the arguments, but thought Mac's only one set lost in seven rounds too impressive to ignore. Wimby is Wimby. I see AO 1983 as a real major that year but still it's not the greatest stage of tennis -- even if I love Kooyong and AO in general.

I remember the differing arguments and remember I thought that Helberg's stance was very sound I didn't think, with all it's strength was the best player or greatest thing that year. I was for Mac, with maybe some co-No. 1 argument for Mats.

And when Mac, like Borg in 1977, continued steaming in 1984 my instinct felt right. Mac alone in 1983 have always been my position since.

Then comes this thread and I went though everything that's written about 1983 and the records. Mats is leading over Mac even more than Jimbo was over Borg in 1976 in certain areas such as win-loss, tourney-wins, things which are important but not the most important to me, it weighs in as much as everything of the other aspects...

Then, and it was then I wrote that post, I went with Wilander in shock over seeing such a devastating case. I mean in 1976 Borg leads of Jimbo in classic-major-records with RG QF, Wimby-triumph, USO F (runner-up) to Jimbo's Wimby QF and USO-triumph. In 1983 Wilander leads Mac in classic majors over Mac with RG F (runner-up), Wimby R3, USO QF and AO-triumph (over a great grass-court field). That's the difference.

Thinking about it again, as I always do, when it comes to H. L. I have decided to leave my options open if he is alone GOAT for two years, letting it stick a while before I make too snap judgments -- which I do sometimes.

So I thought, which was the most dominating perf then? Even if Mats even leads the classic-major record?

Well, Wimby is seven rounds and AO was six. You could argue the AO field was great, I agree, but Wimby is the most pressure-cooking place on earth with all the TV and all the talk of its place as "maybe" the world championships. Mac lost only one set in seven rounds exposed to the entire field, playing sublime with his new graphite.

While Mats lost more sets and I thought Lendl wasn't as good in the AO F that he was at the Wimby SF (further adding that Wimby is THE place most aim for and want to win the most) and Mac was more dominating.

Mac had a weak fall at Cincy, USO and AO but came back good. He was however great during the first part of the year and I started to re-investigate what I thought was the most important factors in similar years and why in these cases -- in 1999 I have co-No. 1s. In 1964 I generally think Laver is No. 1 but Rosewall deserves co-No. 1 IMO.

I do see the the case for lone Borg 1976, I mean I have Ashe as lone No. 1 for 1975 right?

But I prefer two names when it is close -- so like I already said on page two I would go with Borg/Connors in 1976 and Mac/Wilander in 1983 as co-No. 1s...
 

Borgforever

Hall of Fame
So yes I try to be consistent with my view and I am open to having Jimbo even co-No. 1 for 1975. I was saying in another thread I read just recently that I said "Jimmy was probably IMO No. 1 in 1975" and that was another too hasty remark from me (not that I don't think his case is great and qualifies) and looking at the record again for 1975 and I must admit that I can petition for Jimbo as co-No. 1 for 1975 (I mean Jimmy lost a lot less, won more, had the overall H2H-edge with other top tenners I see now and even leads the classic majors-record over Ashe.

That covers the immediate bases I think...
 

krosero

Legend
In that case you're correct and I did express myself wrong there.

That's completely fault for saying Wilander is, or implying that, Wilander is my personal top choice for 1983.

To clarify my position, and what I should've written, writing ahead of thinking it through:

From when I watched them live in 1983 and on TV, following everything, I thought Mats had the best calendar year, remember the arguments, but thought Mac's only one set lost in seven rounds too impressive to ignore. Wimby is Wimby. I see AO 1983 as a real major that year but still it's not the greatest stage of tennis -- even if I love Kooyong and AO in general.

I remember the differing arguments and remember I thought that Helberg's stance was very sound I didn't think, with all it's strength was the best player or greatest thing that year. I was for Mac, with maybe some co-No. 1 argument for Mats.

And when Mac, like Borg in 1977, continued steaming in 1984 my instinct felt right. Mac alone in 1983 have always been my position since.

Then comes this thread and I went though everything that's written about 1983 and the records. Mats is leading over Mac even more than Jimbo was over Borg in 1976 in certain areas such as win-loss, tourney-wins, things which are important but not the most important to me, it weighs in as much as everything of the other aspects...

Then, and it was then I wrote that post, I went with Wilander in shock over seeing such a devastating case. I mean in 1976 Borg leads of Jimbo in classic-major-records with RG QF, Wimby-triumph, USO F (runner-up) to Jimbo's Wimby QF and USO-triumph. In 1983 Wilander leads Mac in classic majors over Mac with RG F (runner-up), Wimby R3, USO QF and AO-triumph (over a great grass-court field). That's the difference.

Thinking about it again, as I always do, when it comes to H. L. I have decided to leave my options open if he is alone GOAT for two years, letting it stick a while before I make too snap judgments -- which I do sometimes.

So I thought, which was the most dominating perf then? Even if Mats even leads the classic-major record?

Well, Wimby is seven rounds and AO was six. You could argue the AO field was great, I agree, but Wimby is the most pressure-cooking place on earth with all the TV and all the talk of its place as "maybe" the world championships. Mac lost only one set in seven rounds exposed to the entire field, playing sublime with his new graphite.

While Mats lost more sets and I thought Lendl wasn't as good in the AO F that he was at the Wimby SF (further adding that Wimby is THE place most aim for and want to win the most) and Mac was more dominating.

Mac had a weak fall at Cincy, USO and AO but came back good. He was however great during the first part of the year and I started to re-investigate what I thought was the most important factors in similar years and why in these cases -- in 1999 I have co-No. 1s. In 1964 I generally think Laver is No. 1 but Rosewall deserves co-No. 1 IMO.

I do see the the case for lone Borg 1976, I mean I have Ashe as lone No. 1 for 1975 right?

But I prefer two names when it is close -- so like I already said on page two I would go with Borg/Connors in 1976 and Mac/Wilander in 1983 as co-No. 1s...
This clarification helps a lot and it's much appreciated.

It would still be a problem in the future if words don't seem to match up with each other, just to let you know that -- but now I see what was going on with your earlier statements about choosing Mats for #1. As I say, your explanation helps (and just your addressing the problem helps).

In another post I'll make some points about the 1983 race.
 

krosero

Legend
I do see the the case for lone Borg 1976, I mean I have Ashe as lone No. 1 for 1975 right?

But Ashe has #1 over a guy who didn't win anything big. Borg needs to earn #1 over a guy who twice won big.

And we've gone on now for pages how that might work, but I just want to say here, the two years (75 and 76) just do not look similar to me.

So yes I try to be consistent with my view and I am open to having Jimbo even co-No. 1 for 1975. I was saying in another thread I read just recently that I said "Jimmy was probably IMO No. 1 in 1975" and that was another too hasty remark from me (not that I don't think his case is great and qualifies) and looking at the record again for 1975 and I must admit that I can petition for Jimbo as co-No. 1 for 1975 (I mean Jimmy lost a lot less, won more, had the overall H2H-edge with other top tenners I see now and even leads the classic majors-record over Ashe.
I like PC1's distinction for '75 (paraphrasing here): Connors was the best player as of 1975, and had a better overall record from January to December, but that these things are not enough to deny Ashe the title of #1 for the year, because of the weight of the victories that Arthur did win.
 

Borgforever

Hall of Fame
Also, as I stated, I don't go with Borg alone in 1976 and don't think that would be cool position. He was 0-5 in H2H, while not all-consuming considering the Nastase H2H with Jimbo and Orantes/Panatta, but it is 0-5 nonetheless and I personally think, and I said this many times before here, that Jimbo's USO 1976-triumph is one of his greatest triumphs ever. True, he didn't face Orantes or Nastase (good fortune) but he was not involved and he did play a super-final against Borg, one of the finest.

I also want to clarify that I don't agree with Borg that he could've won that one, or maybe he could've, but it was very far from my perspective, especially in the third and fourth set when Jimmy was stunning. IMO even if Borg became a bit better in the third and fourth he would've lost that final.

IMO Borg had to be Wimby 1976 50+ winners with a smoking serve to take out Jimbo that day in August. Borg didn't practice for a long time after Wimby and lost form and I think it shows in direct comparisons with these matches.

So how good was Borg at USO in 1976 IMO? Is the perf asterisk-worthy?

No, it is not. While Borg IMO wasn't steamin' beamin' like Wimby -- he did beat form peak Orantes in five and blowouted Nastase for the second time in the biggest events -- AND Borg played very well overall, won the second set in good style and worked up four set points in the third so there's no asterisk regarding his perf (1978 USO is another thing however, where do I have the "asterisk") and Jimmy was simply fantastic in the USO F, a great battle a fully deserved win.

That counts a lot for Jimmy in my book and therefore, must be considered IMO as at least co-No. 1 in 1976 with Borg.

They're too close to separate, their records to fine subjugate to second place, any of them, when they factually performed so memorably.

I am sorry for being "heated" which usually happens when someone has a too closed opinion on something were there is a lot of room for debate...
 

Borgforever

Hall of Fame
Question is one Wimby-win (and practically nothing else in classic majors) bigger than three finals in the four biggest tourneys, 9 titles and 10 losses?!

That is an elegant record however anyone places it...
 

krosero

Legend
Records in classic majors in 1983

Wilander -- RG F (runner-up), Wimby R3 (Tanner), USO QF (Lendl), AO-triumph.

McEnroe -- QF RG (Wilander), Wimby-triumph, USO R4 (Scanlon), AO QF (Wilander)

Clear edge to Wilander in the classic majors except Wimby -- Mats have two finals to boot -- strong edge to Wilander in classic majors.
It depends on how you look at the record in majors. Wilander won more rounds, more consistently.

But I see a strong contrast between Wilander's smaller wins and his wins in the biggest matches. He lost the three biggest events of the year, and went out very poorly with a third-round exit at the biggest of all (which McEnroe won). After he won the AO and put himself in contention for #1, he lost the the fifth biggest of the year (the Masters).

All of these losses, except the one at Wimbledon, were in straight sets -- and the RG loss was an upset.

Even the one major he took, the AO, though he faced great opponents in a legitimate Slam, he won it during a time when players went there and wondered out loud how important the tournament was. Mac and Lendl did not play as well there as they did at Wimbledon, where there was full certainty (as there always is) about the importance of the event, and the pressure felt by the players was unquestioned.

Mats also played most of the year without being in contention for #1, since he didn't have a major until December. He then put himself into contention, but when the pressure for #1 landed on him, he either did not have the indoor skills or the desire to be #1.

Whatever it was, whether physical or mental immaturity, I don't see him taking the biggest tournaments when the expectation was on him. It's easier to win when you're young and not defending anything. But when he was expected to win (on clay, as the defending champion at RG), he went out in straights. When the pressure was thick as it always is at Wimbledon, he went out early. At Flushing Meadow he didn't take a set off Lendl and went out early. In Australia he won a very impressive victory, but then the pressure of #1 fell on him, and for whatever reason he didn't come through.

It's just not a performance I see as the best of the year. The most consistent, perhaps. Not the greatest.
 

jimbo333

Hall of Fame
Also, as I stated, I don't go with Borg alone in 1976 and don't think that would be cool position. He was 0-5 in H2H, while not all-consuming considering the Nastase H2H with Jimbo and Orantes/Panatta, but it is 0-5 nonetheless and I personally think, and I said this many times before here, that Jimbo's USO 1976-triumph is one of his greatest triumphs ever. True, he didn't face Orantes or Nastase (good fortune) but he was not involved and he did play a super-final against Borg, one of the finest.

I also want to clarify that I don't agree with Borg that he could've won that one, or maybe he could've, but it was very far from my perspective, especially in the third and fourth set when Jimmy was stunning. IMO even if Borg became a bit better in the third and fourth he would've lost that final.

IMO Borg had to be Wimby 1976 50+ winners with a smoking serve to take out Jimbo that day in August. Borg didn't practice for a long time after Wimby and lost form and I think it shows in direct comparisons with these matches.

So how good was Borg at USO in 1976 IMO? Is the perf asterisk-worthy?

No, it is not. While Borg IMO wasn't steamin' beamin' like Wimby -- he did beat form peak Orantes in five and blowouted Nastase for the second time in the biggest events -- AND Borg played very well overall, won the second set in good style and worked up four set points in the third so there's no asterisk regarding his perf (1978 USO is another thing however, where do I have the "asterisk") and Jimmy was simply fantastic in the USO F, a great battle a fully deserved win.

That counts a lot for Jimmy in my book and therefore, must be considered IMO as at least co-No. 1 in 1976 with Borg.

They're too close to separate, their records to fine subjugate to second place, any of them, when they factually performed so memorably.

I am sorry for being "heated" which usually happens when someone has a too closed opinion on something were there is a lot of room for debate...

You would be a good negotiator I'll give you that!

Saying that you are not going for Borg alone in 76 as No1 and then saying that you consider Connors/Borg as co No1 for 76, you are trying to make yourself out as being perfectly reasonable and not biased!

Well I for one don't believe it. You have not answered questions when challenged and make ridiculous assumtions about the importance of how good other players are, just to make your argument work!

You are wrong, Connors is No1 for 76!

Borg was the better player overrall in the 70's, but in 76 Jimmy had the better results, FACT:)
 

jimbo333

Hall of Fame
You don't have to be the least bit sorry -- with all due respect -- I don't care what you think whatsoever and I am not interested one iota in convincing you or anybody else.

Yes, you are clearly still not trying to convince anyone:?

I wonder for how much longer you are going to try and not convince anyone:shock:

It was quite close, but Connors had better results than Borg in 76, and was therefore No1 for that year, FACT:)
 

urban

Legend
Comparing Ashe in 1975 and Borg in 1976, one should note, that Ashe won the WCT Dallas finals and also finished first in the WCT overall points standings, to win a golden tennis ball. He won his group over Borg, as it was, with winning several 32 draws WCT titles (i think 4) in the process. Ashe also won the Pacific Southwest title later in the year. In 1976, not Borg, but again Ashe himself dominated the WCT circuit, which consisted mostly of 16 draw tournaments. Ashe again won the golden ball for his overall WCT lead, but lost early at Dallas. So its fair to say, that Ashe in 1975 had a clearly better early season than Borg in 1976, who also lost two crucial matches to Connors at Philadelphia and Palm Springs, at big tournaments, which had the best draws in the early season until Wimbledon.

Borg had a better major season than Connors, but imo Connors made it more than up with his better record in Super Nine, in overall tournaments and with the distinctly better head to head. That Borg had bad form at USO, i cannot see. He came fresh from a big win at Boston, on the same surface as Forest Hills, and at Forest Hills he beat Nastase again in straights. The final was close, and as Borg later said, a match, he should have won and his best chance to win USO. But it was Jimbo, who took it, despite all the pressure on him. It may be a close race, but i still see Connors in the lead for 1976.
In 1978, its quite different, in 1978 Borg was at his absolute peak and had maybe his best year ever, really dominating at Paris and Wimbledon (except his very first round vs. dangerous Amaya). Connors had a legit win at USO, but it was clearly an upset against the dominationg player of 1978, Borg.
 

krosero

Legend
Also, as I stated, I don't go with Borg alone in 1976 and don't think that would be cool position. He was 0-5 in H2H, while not all-consuming considering the Nastase H2H with Jimbo and Orantes/Panatta, but it is 0-5 nonetheless and I personally think, and I said this many times before here, that Jimbo's USO 1976-triumph is one of his greatest triumphs ever. True, he didn't face Orantes or Nastase (good fortune) but he was not involved and he did play a super-final against Borg, one of the finest.

I also want to clarify that I don't agree with Borg that he could've won that one, or maybe he could've, but it was very far from my perspective, especially in the third and fourth set when Jimmy was stunning. IMO even if Borg became a bit better in the third and fourth he would've lost that final.

IMO Borg had to be Wimby 1976 50+ winners with a smoking serve to take out Jimbo that day in August. Borg didn't practice for a long time after Wimby and lost form and I think it shows in direct comparisons with these matches.

So how good was Borg at USO in 1976 IMO? Is the perf asterisk-worthy?

No, it is not. While Borg IMO wasn't steamin' beamin' like Wimby -- he did beat form peak Orantes in five and blowouted Nastase for the second time in the biggest events -- AND Borg played very well overall, won the second set in good style and worked up four set points in the third so there's no asterisk regarding his perf (1978 USO is another thing however, where do I have the "asterisk") and Jimmy was simply fantastic in the USO F, a great battle a fully deserved win.

That counts a lot for Jimmy in my book and therefore, must be considered IMO as at least co-No. 1 in 1976 with Borg.

They're too close to separate, their records to fine subjugate to second place, any of them, when they factually performed so memorably.

I am sorry for being "heated" which usually happens when someone has a too closed opinion on something were there is a lot of room for debate...
This is a very good point about Borg's win over Orantes. You've said that Borg was not at his best when he lost to Jimmy, and I can go with that; I've seen myself that his passing shots were not as good as they were at the Pepsi a few months later. Yet that puts no asterisk on Jimmy's victory, as I see you agree with, so no issues ... and this point about Borg's victory over Orantes is a good one. Borg was still healthy enough to beat the defending champion in a five-set quarterfinal, which has to be one of the most impressive matches/victories of that time period (I haven't found any tapes of it).

I'm sorry if I've given the impression, number one, that my objective was attacking your credibility, and two, that I was giving Connors a slam-dunk case in '76. It's not that simple (how can it be when two men split Wimbledon and the USO?) It's still clear to me, I don't want to give some other impression; I think 1983 is a closer race and yet I still have enough confidence to decide there. So 1976 imo, Connors has a clear edge -- but not a slam dunk that makes Borg's case unreasonable.

My remaining uncertainty is about Borg's exo results. With the ones you've included, his overall record looks similar to Connors'. I'm skeptical about exos (particularly the ones in Central and South America), but at least there's a case here that would get Borg's record closer to Connors' (if someone could successfully make the case).

However, at best that would leave the two men more or less tied in small victories, more or less tied in big ones -- and that leaves the H2H. Like you say, it's a blank for Borg.

So I don't see it as similar to Federer-Nadal, because while Federer loses more matches than he wins, he consistently wins (Miami, two Wimbledon victories, two Masters Cup semis, not to mention Hamburg and Madrid). Borg's got nothing in '76. It might make a difference if he had 1 or 2 wins. It's not so much that he lost the H2H. He might lose it 1-3, or 2-5, but his wins could push him over the top. That's exactly what he's missing; it's a blank.

And that match at the USO was clearly seen as potentially deciding #1 (as Ashe said), which is why I don't like to see the H2H in '76 relegated to the status of some minor stat. It was huge. That rivalry was the biggest of the time, and those matches were heavyweight battles where the big prize, everyone understood, was the top place in tennis.
 
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pc1

G.O.A.T.
Comparing Ashe in 1975 and Borg in 1976, one should note, that Ashe won the WCT Dallas finals and also finished first in the WCT overall points standings, to win a golden tennis ball. He won his group over Borg, as it was, with winning several 32 draws WCT titles (i think 4) in the process. Ashe also won the Pacific Southwest title later in the year. In 1976, not Borg, but again Ashe himself dominated the WCT circuit, which consisted mostly of 16 draw tournaments. Ashe again won the golden ball for his overall WCT lead, but lost early at Dallas. So its fair to say, that Ashe in 1975 had a clearly better early season than Borg in 1976, who also lost two crucial matches to Connors at Philadelphia and Palm Springs, at big tournaments, which had the best draws in the early season until Wimbledon.

Borg had a better major season than Connors, but imo Connors made it more than up with his better record in Super Nine, in overall tournaments and with the distinctly better head to head. That Borg had bad form at USO, i cannot see. He came fresh from a big win at Boston, on the same surface as Forest Hills, and at Forest Hills he beat Nastase again in straights. The final was close, and as Borg later said, a match, he should have won and his best chance to win USO. But it was Jimbo, who took it, despite all the pressure on him. It may be a close race, but i still see Connors in the lead for 1976.
In 1978, its quite different, in 1978 Borg was at his absolute peak and had maybe his best year ever, really dominating at Paris and Wimbledon (except his very first round vs. dangerous Amaya). Connors had a legit win at USO, but it was clearly an upset against the dominationg player of 1978, Borg.

I was at the US Open in 1976 and I can say in the matches I saw Borg play (Nastase, Orantes were two of them) that I thought Borg was in great form during the tournament. Nastase didn't have a chance in his match against Borg and while Orantes played extremely well against Borg, Borg had a streak in that match of incredible play in which I recall he won 16 of 20 games. Orantes rallied to bring it to a fifth set but Borg won.

I've seen the final numerous times against Connors in 1976 and I think Borg tried to play a different style from his normal style of play. I'm also not sure if he learned how to handle Connors aggressive baseline play yet.

As far as the 1978 US Open was concerned. I believed at the time and to this day that if Borg was healthy, the match would have had Borg as the overwhelming favorite to win. As great as Connors was in 1978, I think Borg was a level above him on every surface. This wasn't the case in 1976.
 
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Borgforever

Hall of Fame
Ashe -- as I understand it -- said the No. 1 for 1976 was "up in the air I think" -- if Jimbo won -- further adding to TENNIS DE FRANCE and others views who didn't have Jimbo as lone No. 1 for that year...
 
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jimbo333

Hall of Fame
Ashe -- as I understand it -- said the No. 1 for 1976 was "up in the air I think" -- if Jimbo won -- further adding to TENNIS DE FRANCE and others views who didn't have Jimbo as lone No. 1 for that year...

Still not trying to convince anyone:?

"others views" meaning a few biased Borg fans:)
 

Borgforever

Hall of Fame
WCT 1976 list and points after all WCT-tourneys the points list looked like this --

1. Ashe 860
2. Ramirez
3. Vilas
4. Dibbs
5. Borg
6. Stockton
7. Lutz
8. Solomon
9. Gerulaitis
10. Gottfried
11. Nastase
12. Okker

Ashe won 5, Vilas 3, and Borg, Dibbs, Solomon and Ramirez won two each to qualify to the WCT-finals in Dallas of 1976. With all tourneys in WCT such as Philly, which was counted in and Borg was a finalist together with all fields in all those tourneys to qualify I do think WCT-finals is stronger, draw-wise, than the separate WCT-Philly-tourney by itself -- disregarding the already mentioned prestige...
 

David_86

Rookie
What about post 288 right above CyB -- isn't that an answer?

You are punishing Connors for Panatta and Orantes losing. That's my opinion of what you are doing. I want you to either admit it or tell me I'm wrong.
 

Borgforever

Hall of Fame
You are punishing Connors for Panatta and Orantes losing. That's my opinion of what you are doing. I want you to either admit it or tell me I'm wrong.

David_86 -- I'll admit I was punishing Connors for that lack of matches against them, however, it's a minor nuance IMO and not a biggie such as his 1-3 (1-4) H2H against Nastase, including a loss late in the year at Caracas where Jimbo beat Borg again in a close match.

So you're -- IMO -- both correct and wrong since I don't take that into a main account.

But just like krosero said in the quoted posts by me in his motivations behind the calendar year H2Hs between Mats and Mac in 1983 (beat Mac twice, decisively in majors) I see Jimbo and Borg's H2H with nuance too -- like an unfolding story and Borg did beat Jimbo at the start of 1977, like Mac beat Mats at the start of 1984, in fact kept on beating Jimbo -- and there was the Jimbo-complex that pc1 mentions above -- that Borg didn't play his usual relaxed style towards Jimbo as he did against others such as Nastase and Orantes.

About Borg's form I'll add that it was not really Wimby-peak since Borg's form depended on being built, slowly and any interruption would disturb it quite a bit. Still Borg was not bad at USO and Jimbo won a deserved and great victory with not much to add than maybe what pc1 said about game-style and Borg's Jimbo-complex -- but it doesn't undermine the triumph, which is one of his greatest feats and for one of BIG reasons that convinces me Jimbo has got to have the 1976 No. 1-spot too.

Jimbo's greatness in that match, like Borg's entire 1976-Wimby-streak, was as great as can be, could be one of his absolutely greatest perfs. I wonder how Borg could really be disappointed in losing when Jimmy played so great -- okey, some other tactic perhaps but, hey, Jimmy was bombing them constantly. I have to ask Björn about this...

That's also just nuance -- and I agree with krosero's statements about Mac in 1983 above that Wimby is the biggest and a great perf there (21-0 in sets is unmatched in 91 "open" Wimby editions until 2009) so it carries more weight than USO did AND Borg had to 2 GS-major finals and 1 QF -- that's three great results in the three biggest events -- that's even better than Mac in 1983 in the classic majors.

Although I see Hellberg's argument and all nuances and points I don't fully agree with his conclusion (he knows probably more than me about this, I think it is a solid case) because the issue is -- IMO -- too complex to make a one-man decision. I have said in the AKAI-thread even -- way back -- I think they both share the top spot IMO for 1976 -- which is the water-dividing year in their prime careers I think -- both having strong No. 1 claims, Connors only playing two big ones out of 5-6 big events (W, USO, RG, AO, ROME, WCT) having a strong result only in one of them, which the published material proves regarding this year.

Still -- as I said -- I contradict every other previously published statement with saying that a co-No. 1 seems justified to me for that year when everything is said and done...

I see no shame in that for any of the players or for the argument...
 
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jimbo333

Hall of Fame
David_86 -- I'll admit I was punishing Connors for that lack of matches against them, however, it's a minor nuance IMO and not a biggie such as his 1-3 (1-4) H2H against Nastase, including a loss late in the year at Caracas where Jimbo beat Borg again in a close match.

Still -- as I said -- I contradict every other previously published statement with saying that a co-No. 1 seems justified to me for that year when everything is said and done...

I see no shame in that for any of the players or for the argument...

So let me try and understand this, you think that Connors H2H with Nastase is more important than Connors H2H with Borg when comparing Borg and Connors for No1 in 76:?

And deciding Connors had worse results than Borg, from who Connors didn't play:?

Honestly, you really are clutching at straws now, but it is getting quite entertaining!
 

krosero

Legend
But just like krosero said in the quoted posts by me in his motivations behind the calendar year H2Hs between Mats and Mac in 1983 (beat Mac twice, decisively in majors) I see Jimbo and Borg's H2H with nuance too -- like an unfolding story and Borg did beat Jimbo at the start of 1977, like Mac beat Mac in 1984, in fact kept on beating Jimbo --
Just a quick note here. I looked at the H2H as an unfolding story in '83, for sure -- because part of the story of that year was that Wilander didn't come into contention for #1 until December. And that means something, when we're talking about what each match in the H2H meant, how much pressure was on in each match, etc.

But I would adamantly stop the story after the January Masters is concluded. I'm sticking to 12 months -- between January 1983 and January 1984. I most definitely do not use any later results in 1984 as bearing on 1983. That's what you're doing with the Pepsi in 1977.

It belong to another year. If you include it you're going outside the 12 months of 1976.

It gives perspective, okay, but I think only in one sense: it shows that in '76 the rivalry was about to change.

But it didn't change yet. The results weren't there.

I have come to think, every time Borg's later achievements are mentioned, that they only underline his #2 status in 1976, rather than lift him to #1. Why? Because they came later -- after the twelve months of 1976.
 

jimbo333

Hall of Fame
No, come on, Borg won such a big match at Wimbledon that surely that is the turning point and that alone makes him co no1 in 76:)

(that's going to be in his next embarassing post)
 

Borgforever

Hall of Fame
Krosero -- but you said Wimby in the quoted posts above that you consider Wimby as truly the biggest tourney, bar none, in your Mac-argument against Mats for lone No. 1 in 1983 -- with seven best of five-set matches compared to USO 1976 and still Borg made it to the finals in both, won the biggest in unmatched style and almost won the second biggest.

Borg had finals at both Wimby and USO 1976 -- and the QF on red clay at RG. How do you see that comparison?

Mac had only one final in 1983, like Jimbo in 1976, in the classic majors and one QF, twice being defeated by Mats in majors decisively on grass and red clay -- you think that's less what Mats did to Mac in 1983 in majors than what Jimbo did to Borg in majors in 1976?
 
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jimbo333

Hall of Fame
But you said Wimby was the biggest tourney, bar none, in your Mac for lone No. 1 in 1983 with seven best of five-set matches compared to USO 1976 and still Borg made it to the finals in both, won the biggest in unmatched style and almost won the second biggest.

LOL

See:)

Predictable mate, predictable!
 

krosero

Legend
Krosero -- but you said Wimby in the quoted posts above that you consider Wimby as truly the biggest tourney, bar none, in your Mac-argument against Mats for lone No. 1 in 1983 -- with seven best of five-set matches compared to USO 1976 and still Borg made it to the finals in both, won the biggest in unmatched style and almost won the second biggest.

Borg had finals at both Wimby and USO 1976 -- and the QF on red clay at RG. How do you see that comparison?

In my argument I did name Wimbledon as the most important tournament because people generally agree that it's #1, with the unofficial title of world championship, and the pressure that comes with the tradition, etc.

But I hardly consider the USO much behind, and RG is in there somewhere with the USO.

So yes, Wilander’s early loss at the biggest of the four majors is an important loss, but by itself that doesn't break the deal for him, in my book. It certainly didn't in '88.

My opinion of Wilander's year (’83) is that he lost too many of the most important matches to be considered #1: that his great stats, apart from the AO, come in smaller tournaments. (When I say he had his earliest exit at the most important Slam, I say that as part of a pattern, not because I place Wimbledon as the centerpiece of my argument.) There’s a contrast between his everyday consistency – or his run in Slam early rounds – and his upsets or underperformances at RG, W and USO.

Connors in ’76 doesn’t have that problem. He was consistent and he came through in two big events – with a quarterfinal loss at Wimbledon, a significant loss but not a deal-breaker (I don’t even consider Wilander’s third-round exit a deal-breaker in itself; Wimbledon may be the most important tournament, but it’s still just one tournament).

I agree with you that Wimbledon is the most important tournament, but beyond that I think you’re giving it more importance than I am. It seems to be the centerpiece of your ‘76 argument. It’s not the central feature of my arguments.

Mac had only one final in 1983, like Jimbo in 1976, in the classic majors and one QF, twice being defeated by Mats in majors decisively on grass and red clay -- you think that's less what Mats did to Mac in 1983 in majors than what Jimbo did to Borg in majors in 1976?
Is what Wilander did to Mac less than what Connors did to Borg? Well in a way it’s more: Wilander goes 2-0 over Mac in Slams, while Connors leads Borg 1-0 (in a final, however). In another way it’s less, if you look outside the Slams, because the Mats-Mac H2H is not a shutout: Wilander lost to McEnroe at the Masters. Adjusted major, fifth most important tournament, whatever: it was a big tournament. And it was seen as potentially deciding #1 (kind of like that USO final in ’76).

I don’t consider H2H decisive by itself. When all other stats are tied, it can be.

But that’s what makes every year different, with no hard rules. ANY stat can be seen as the tiebreaker, when other stats seem to be tied. I just think it depends from year to year.
 
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jrepac

Hall of Fame
But I would adamantly stop the story after the January Masters is concluded. I'm sticking to 12 months -- between January 1983 and January 1984. I most definitely do not use any later results in 1984 as bearing on 1983. That's what you're doing with the Pepsi in 1977.

It belong to another year. If you include it you're going outside the 12 months of 1976.

It gives perspective, okay, but I think only in one sense: it shows that in '76 the rivalry was about to change.

But it didn't change yet. The results weren't there.

I have come to think, every time Borg's later achievements are mentioned, that they only underline his #2 status in 1976, rather than lift him to #1. Why? Because they came later -- after the twelve months of 1976.

Oh, c'mon now...let's count in 1975 as well! Borg lost to Connors in the USO semis, but now, he had a stone in his shoe, and it hurt y'know. So, really he was still the better player. And it was on clay, his best surface, even tho' he lost to Jimmy. Plus, he kept his socks cleaner when he played, so he gets credit for that. And his hair was prettier too. So,even tho' he didn't beat Connors in '75, we'll give him extra bonus points into 1976, so he can know be SOLE #1, not CO#1. Y'know, it's just a big points bank, and you move them to whichever year you choose to boost this inane argument.

Shoot, I think Bjorn is #1 for 1982, simply because everyone missed him so much, he just deserves it all the more!

and, that is how ridiculous this 1976 debate really is...
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Oh, c'mon now...let's count in 1975 as well! Borg lost to Connors in the USO semis, but now, he had a stone in his shoe, and it hurt y'know. So, really he was still the better player. And it was on clay, his best surface, even tho' he lost to Jimmy. Plus, he kept his socks cleaner when he played, so he gets credit for that. And his hair was prettier too. So,even tho' he didn't beat Connors in '75, we'll give him extra bonus points into 1976, so he can know be SOLE #1, not CO#1. Y'know, it's just a big points bank, and you move them to whichever year you choose to boost this inane argument.

Shoot, I think Bjorn is #1 for 1982, simply because everyone missed him so much, he just deserves it all the more!

and, that is how ridiculous this 1976 debate really is...

Let's not get totally ridiculous. lol.

Borg was legitimately hurt in some years at majors. That was no excuse but it was true. Injuries are no excuse for losing I understand.

The Masters in January always counted for the end of the TENNIS year which is different from the end of the calendar year. So the Masters in early 1977 counts for the 1976 Tennis Year.

Now I believe that Connors was number one for 1976 but I am willing to read the arguments and keep an open mind.

For the record Ken Rosewall was OFFICIALLY number one in the Pros in 1964 and virtually everyone here thinks Laver was number one for the year based on record. Sometimes the arguments can be quite logical and convincing.

Personally if it was me, despite the fact I think Laver had the better record in 1964 I would rank Rosewall as equal number one with Laver for that year since Rosewall was officially number one.

So we're looking at the arguments for 1976. If nothing else we may all learn more about the year even if no one's mind is changed.
 
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hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
1971:

Matches were played between Jan and March. Because Laver won all the matches i give the name of the opponent:

New York: Rosewall 6-3,6-4,7-5.
Rochester: Newcombe 6-4,6-2,4-6,5-7,6-4.
Boston: Roche 7-5,4-6,3-6,7-5,6-1.
Philadelphia: Emerson, 6-2,6-3,7-5.
New York: Ashe 7-5,6-4,7-5.
Detroit: Okker 5-7,5-7,6-2,6-2,6-2.
New York: Ashe 3-6,6-3,6-3,6-4.
Inglewood: Taylor 6-3,7-5,6-2.
New York:Okker 6-1,6-4,6-3.
New York: Ralston 3-6,6-1,6-4,6-3.
New Haven: Emerson 6-3,5-7,6-3,3-6,6-3.

To decide the semifinal line-up outside the Laver-matches, the following matches were played:
Ralston bt. Roche. Ralston bt. Ashe. Ashe bt. Rosewall, Okker bt- Newcombe. Emerson bt. Taylor.

Semifinals, New York:
Laver-Ralston 6-3,6-4,7-5.
Okker-Emerson 6-4,2-6,4.6,6-3,6-4.

Final, New York:
Laver-Okker 7-5,6-2,6-1.
Thanks! Truly awesome!
 
1964 pro ranlkings

the official ranking was useless in 1964 just as the 1977 atp ranking which ranked connors first and the 1982 ranking which ranked mcenroe first were both useless.

tjhe 1964 pro ranking only covered about 65% of tournaments played; gave the same points to ordinary events like st louis and cannes as major pros like the french and us pro; and ignored all one night stands. its absolutely useless and should not be used as the true overall picture of 1964.

jeffrey
 
...
That means you'll show us that all these folks who voted for Connors in '76 --
John Barrett
Judith Elian (who wrote for L'Equipe magazine in France)
Bud Collins
Lance Tingay
Peter Bodo
Joe McCauley
...

Hi Krosero.

Some precisions :
L'Équipe Magazine was created in 1981 as the week-end (Saturday) supplement of the daily newspaper L'Équipe so in 1976 only L'Équipe existed. Besides in any case L'Équipe Magazine published any world ranking in any sport. Therefore Judith Élian edited it in L'Équipe. This is a very little detail.

All L'Équipe's annual rankings that I know were always published in January of the next year, even in the late 50's, it was published in January of the following year in order to take into account all the important events.
In the USLTA Guides, Collins also considered the calendar year including the Masters and the Davis Cup final.

Other detail : Tennis de France very seldom published annual Top10 rankings.
The only ones I know are that of 1953 (amateur ranking of the calendar year, Hoad being chosen #1 amateur because of his Trabert and Seixas wins in Davis Cup) and of 1954 (Philippe Chatrier, Tennis de France creator, published his own ranking but I'm not sure it was in his own magazine).

The other years some Tennis de France journalists stated that such or such player was the best in the world but the magazine never published a Top10 (or Top20) ranking after 1954. When Tennis de France made the account of Wimbledon 1976, the reporter of the magazine for that event headlined something like "Borg Champion du Monde" ("Borg Champion of the World") because he made the direct parallel with Ashe's record in 1975 (Dallas + Wimby crowns) however once the year 1976 was fully over, Tennis de France changed his mind considering that Connors was the #1 with Borg very close, both players clearly ahead of Nastase and Panatta.

This is "Tennis Magazine" (the French and not the US paper) which ranked Borg #1 in 1976 (and in 1977) and not "Tennis de France" as believed by Borgforever in that thread :

however "Tennis Magazine" 's 1976 and 1977 rankings were contradictory.

They considered that Borg had the best record in 1976 (which I'm not sure at all) and even if the Swede's win-loss record against Connors was 0-4, they chose Borg as the sole #1 (I don't agree but it was their opinion).

For 1977 they made a similar account concerning Vilas. They said that the Argentinian had the best record of the year but this time they used the H2H argument to dismiss Vilas in favour of Borg who had in their opinion a clearly less good record than Vilas in 1977 : but this time they considered that the completely negative Argentinian H2H record against Borg (0-3) was the deciding factor whereas they didn't use at all this argument in favour of Connors the previous year, 1976.

About the "October n-1 / October n" rankings I think they were completely ridiculous from the very start. They were accurate when there was no major (or close to major) events in the last months of a calendar year but were not at all when in particular the Davis Cup challenge round, the most important event of the amateur circuit, was held in Australia in December.
And even in the first open era years, that 12 month-span was used by McCauley for instance (and World Tennis in general).
His ranking for 1971 didn't take into account the WCT Finals played in November, the Masters in December though these events were the conclusion of respectively the WCT and Grand Prix circuits but he counted the Masters 1970 (which was the conclusion of the Grand Prix 1970).
For instance in his 1968 rankings McCauley considered Santana as a Top10 (or close to it) player and the main argument was Santana's great record in Davis Cup : among Santana's wins was his Newcombe's defeat in the 1967 challenge round. It was inaccurate.
If we except some early world amateur rankings in 1913, 1914 and 1919, these rankings truly began in the 1920's when the Americans were the best players in the world (Tilden, Johnston, Richards & al) so the end of the American season was considered as the year ending in particular because the Davis Challenge Round was held in August or September a few days before the US Champs. The latter were followed by the last important US events, the Pacific Southwest Champs and the Pacific Coast Champs. So from mid-October to December what was left ? In Europe most of the events were played indoors with few or not Americans or Australians and in Australia the "summer" circuit used to begin with mainly only local players who weren't the best in the world : even Patterson the best Aussie couldn't compete with Tilden or Johnston. Besides the Australian "summer" circuit ending in January or February or March (or even April) it was hard to take it as a whole into account in a calendar year ranking.
So between WWI and the late 1940's it was more or less accurate to consider the "October n-1 - October n" season in the annual rankings.

But as soon as Australia became the best "amateur" country this span was inaccurate because the Davis Cup Challenge Round was usually held in Australia so in December (and not in August or September as in the USA and even late July at Roland Garros or Wimbledon when France and Great Britain were the Davis Cup holders). From then on the Australian circuit became important and of course the Davis Cup Challenge Round was the climax of the amateur year.

However Tingay or McCauley for instance continued to publish rankings in October.
Potter who used to do the same until the 40's, more or less changed in the 50's and then waited for the challenge round to give his own ranking.

Skiing has always been a winter activity (nowadays it changes a little because you can ski indoors in July in hot desert regions) so it was accurate that every international winter season crossed successive years
but
(Lawn) tennis has always been a sport which could be played almost everywhere on earth and in almost every season because you can play either outdoors or indoors according to the season.
As soon as 1878 there were the first indoor champs :the first Scottish Championships were played indoors.
The Scandinavians used to play more indoors than outdoors in those days. Sure there was a very little minority of people who could play indoors in winter because there were few indoor tennis courts (it was very expensive to built indoor courts) in Europe or in the USA.
However in utmost limits one can (could) play tennis from January to December even if it frozes (frozed) outdoors.
And in the case you don't like cold you can play tennis in successive endless "summers" by following the sun : in the 40's-50's Drobny played in India in January then played the Egyptian circuit in March then the Mediterranean circuit in April-May then the French Champs and Wimby in boreal summer then the European or the American circuit in August-September then once again the Mediterranean circuit in October and then in a few occasions he played the last months of a year in a warm region, as he did for instance in late 1949-early 1950 in Australia (he also played indoor events in these months as the French autumn events or the British Indoor tourneys).

So even in the old days the best players had no restriction to play tennis whenever they wanted because indoor "lawn" tennis was born almost as early as outdoor "lawn" tennis.

Therefore stopping a year in October when important (and sometimes very important) events concluding the year were held afterwards
was a clear nonsense.
 

krosero

Legend
A great deal of interesting info, Carlo, thank you.

It seems that October rankings were controversial all around, even though they lasted right into the 70s as far as I understand from this thread, with Tingay and McCauley as examples -- and Bjorn Hellberg. In the piece that Borgforever translated for us, Hellberg refers to penning his annual rankings for the SWEDISH TENNIS MAGAZINE/TENNISTIDNINGEN in the "autumn", which undoubtedly means after the USO (though Borgforever said that Hellberg was personally opposed to the October rankings, which shows the level of controversy).

What seems clear to me, though -- and I invite correction here -- is that October rankings were still considered temporary rankings, to be replaced at year-end, or at least re-evaluated. Even Hellberg's piece, which spoke about Borg's record from October to October, was written in January 1977, when I presume he would be responding to year-end rankings from all over the world (he says in his piece that he saw no reason to change the autumn ranking in which he had given Borg first place).
 
Last edited:

jean pierre

Professional
Hi Krosero.

Some precisions :
L'Équipe Magazine was created in 1981 as the week-end (Saturday) supplement of the daily newspaper L'Équipe so in 1976 only L'Équipe existed. Besides in any case L'Équipe Magazine published any world ranking in any sport. Therefore Judith Élian edited it in L'Équipe. This is a very little detail.

All L'Équipe's annual rankings that I know were always published in January of the next year, even in the late 50's, it was published in January of the following year in order to take into account all the important events.
In the USLTA Guides, Collins also considered the calendar year including the Masters and the Davis Cup final.

Other detail : Tennis de France very seldom published annual Top10 rankings.
The only ones I know are that of 1953 (amateur ranking of the calendar year, Hoad being chosen #1 amateur because of his Trabert and Seixas wins in Davis Cup) and of 1954 (Philippe Chatrier, Tennis de France creator, published his own ranking but I'm not sure it was in his own magazine).

The other years some Tennis de France journalists stated that such or such player was the best in the world but the magazine never published a Top10 (or Top20) ranking after 1954. When Tennis de France made the account of Wimbledon 1976, the reporter of the magazine for that event headlined something like "Borg Champion du Monde" ("Borg Champion of the World") because he made the direct parallel with Ashe's record in 1975 (Dallas + Wimby crowns) however once the year 1976 was fully over, Tennis de France changed his mind considering that Connors was the #1 with Borg very close, both players clearly ahead of Nastase and Panatta.

This is "Tennis Magazine" (the French and not the US paper) which ranked Borg #1 in 1976 (and in 1977) and not "Tennis de France" as believed by Borgforever in that thread :

however "Tennis Magazine" 's 1976 and 1977 rankings were contradictory.

They considered that Borg had the best record in 1976 (which I'm not sure at all) and even if the Swede's win-loss record against Connors was 0-4, they chose Borg as the sole #1 (I don't agree but it was their opinion).

For 1977 they made a similar account concerning Vilas. They said that the Argentinian had the best record of the year but this time they used the H2H argument to dismiss Vilas in favour of Borg who had in their opinion a clearly less good record than Vilas in 1977 : but this time they considered that the completely negative Argentinian H2H record against Borg (0-3) was the deciding factor whereas they didn't use at all this argument in favour of Connors the previous year, 1976.

About the "October n-1 / October n" rankings I think they were completely ridiculous from the very start. They were accurate when there was no major (or close to major) events in the last months of a calendar year but were not at all when in particular the Davis Cup challenge round, the most important event of the amateur circuit, was held in Australia in December.
And even in the first open era years, that 12 month-span was used by McCauley for instance (and World Tennis in general).
His ranking for 1971 didn't take into account the WCT Finals played in November, the Masters in December though these events were the conclusion of respectively the WCT and Grand Prix circuits but he counted the Masters 1970 (which was the conclusion of the Grand Prix 1970).
For instance in his 1968 rankings McCauley considered Santana as a Top10 (or close to it) player and the main argument was Santana's great record in Davis Cup : among Santana's wins was his Newcombe's defeat in the 1967 challenge round. It was inaccurate.
If we except some early world amateur rankings in 1913, 1914 and 1919, these rankings truly began in the 1920's when the Americans were the best players in the world (Tilden, Johnston, Richards & al) so the end of the American season was considered as the year ending in particular because the Davis Challenge Round was held in August or September a few days before the US Champs. The latter were followed by the last important US events, the Pacific Southwest Champs and the Pacific Coast Champs. So from mid-October to December what was left ? In Europe most of the events were played indoors with few or not Americans or Australians and in Australia the "summer" circuit used to begin with mainly only local players who weren't the best in the world : even Patterson the best Aussie couldn't compete with Tilden or Johnston. Besides the Australian "summer" circuit ending in January or February or March (or even April) it was hard to take it as a whole into account in a calendar year ranking.
So between WWI and the late 1940's it was more or less accurate to consider the "October n-1 - October n" season in the annual rankings.

But as soon as Australia became the best "amateur" country this span was inaccurate because the Davis Cup Challenge Round was usually held in Australia so in December (and not in August or September as in the USA and even late July at Roland Garros or Wimbledon when France and Great Britain were the Davis Cup holders). From then on the Australian circuit became important and of course the Davis Cup Challenge Round was the climax of the amateur year.

However Tingay or McCauley for instance continued to publish rankings in October.
Potter who used to do the same until the 40's, more or less changed in the 50's and then waited for the challenge round to give his own ranking.

Skiing has always been a winter activity (nowadays it changes a little because you can ski indoors in July in hot desert regions) so it was accurate that every international winter season crossed successive years
but
(Lawn) tennis has always been a sport which could be played almost everywhere on earth and in almost every season because you can play either outdoors or indoors according to the season.
As soon as 1878 there were the first indoor champs :the first Scottish Championships were played indoors.
The Scandinavians used to play more indoors than outdoors in those days. Sure there was a very little minority of people who could play indoors in winter because there were few indoor tennis courts (it was very expensive to built indoor courts) in Europe or in the USA.
However in utmost limits one can (could) play tennis from January to December even if it frozes (frozed) outdoors.
And in the case you don't like cold you can play tennis in successive endless "summers" by following the sun : in the 40's-50's Drobny played in India in January then played the Egyptian circuit in March then the Mediterranean circuit in April-May then the French Champs and Wimby in boreal summer then the European or the American circuit in August-September then once again the Mediterranean circuit in October and then in a few occasions he played the last months of a year in a warm region, as he did for instance in late 1949-early 1950 in Australia (he also played indoor events in these months as the French autumn events or the British Indoor tourneys).

So even in the old days the best players had no restriction to play tennis whenever they wanted because indoor "lawn" tennis was born almost as early as outdoor "lawn" tennis.

Therefore stopping a year in October when important (and sometimes very important) events concluding the year were held afterwards
was a clear nonsense.


French Tennis magazine was very alone to say Borg is n°1 in 1977, and they received a lot of letters of protestation. It was ridiculous to say Borg is n°1 because he beated Vilas 3 times. They didn't see how the results of Borg and Vilas are different this year !!
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Vilas is the clear number 1 in 1977. The head-to-head between Borg and Vilas in 1977 should be irrelevant as far as the rankings are concerned. Vilas clearly had the better results that year, which is all that matters.
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
Masters

Let's not get totally ridiculous. lol.


The Masters in January always counted for the end of the TENNIS year which is different from the end of the calendar year. So the Masters in early 1977 counts for the 1976 Tennis Year.

Sure, I understand what you are saying; the Masters was the "year end" tournament played in Jan of the FOLLOWING year. Sort of a capstone event! Gee, I miss that and the Virginia Slims as well (you've come a long way baby!):(

But Connors won the Masters in '77, no? So, is the argument here that since Bjorn got a win in the round robin over Jimmy, that makes him credible as co-1 for 1976? I don't know about that.:confused:

Also, comparing Jimmy's record against Nasty to Bjorn's against Nasty seems like a big red herring to me. :-?

At the end of the day, Jimmy won a whole bunch of tourneys, USO included, beat Bjorn 4 times (on his best surface as well), so very hard for me to see Bjorn as co-1 during that year.

And, I will freely admit to being a Connors fan, but concede that Bjorn was the superior player from '77 to '81 (tho' maybe not by TOO much :twisted:)
 

timnz

Legend
1971 - Tennis Champions Classic

Originally Posted by krosero
Check out http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=273248

Quote:
Originally Posted by urban
1971:

Matches were played between Jan and March. Because Laver won all the matches i give the name of the opponent:

New York: Rosewall 6-3,6-4,7-5.
Rochester: Newcombe 6-4,6-2,4-6,5-7,6-4.
Boston: Roche 7-5,4-6,3-6,7-5,6-1.
Philadelphia: Emerson, 6-2,6-3,7-5.
New York: Ashe 7-5,6-4,7-5.
Detroit: Okker 5-7,5-7,6-2,6-2,6-2.
New York: Ashe 3-6,6-3,6-3,6-4.
Inglewood: Taylor 6-3,7-5,6-2.
New York:Okker 6-1,6-4,6-3.
New York: Ralston 3-6,6-1,6-4,6-3.
New Haven: Emerson 6-3,5-7,6-3,3-6,6-3.

To decide the semifinal line-up outside the Laver-matches, the following matches were played:
Ralston bt. Roche. Ralston bt. Ashe. Ashe bt. Rosewall, Okker bt- Newcombe. Emerson bt. Taylor.

Semifinals, New York:
Laver-Ralston 6-3,6-4,7-5.
Okker-Emerson 6-4,2-6,4.6,6-3,6-4.

Final, New York:
Laver-Okker 7-5,6-2,6-1.

------------------------------------------------

What weight should the Tennis champions classic hold in terms of the determination of who was world number 1 that year? If you look at the draw it is first class. Laver in the first round is playing Rosewall, the second round playing Newcombe..... and wins 13 matches in the row all of which are highly ranked players with high achievement records.

Sure the tournament had no tradition - but in terms of actual tennis achievement it is extraordinary. In terms of tennis skill I do believe it is at least equivalent to winning 2 slams back to back. (actually harder given the depth of the field). Imagine having to play someone as good as rosewall in the first round and Newcombe in the second round of a Grand Slam today? - and then keep up that level for 13 matches in a row?
 

krosero

Legend
Sure, I understand what you are saying; the Masters was the "year end" tournament played in Jan of the FOLLOWING year. Sort of a capstone event! Gee, I miss that and the Virginia Slims as well (you've come a long way baby!):(

But Connors won the Masters in '77, no? So, is the argument here that since Bjorn got a win in the round robin over Jimmy, that makes him credible as co-1 for 1976? I don't know about that.:confused:

Also, comparing Jimmy's record against Nasty to Bjorn's against Nasty seems like a big red herring to me. :-?

At the end of the day, Jimmy won a whole bunch of tourneys, USO included, beat Bjorn 4 times (on his best surface as well), so very hard for me to see Bjorn as co-1 during that year.

And, I will freely admit to being a Connors fan, but concede that Bjorn was the superior player from '77 to '81 (tho' maybe not by TOO much :twisted:)
Connors won the '77 Masters, true -- it was played in January '78 and capped off the 1977 season. The Masters finishing the 1976 season was played in December '76.

Neither Borg nor Connors attended. They played a round-robin match at the Masters in January '80.
 

krosero

Legend
I think as long as there was some uncertainty back then, it's difficult to call it a slam-dunk case, looking back on it now. It's true that Connors got an impressive number of votes at the end of the year, but here's Sports Illustrated after the USO:

By the time Jimmy Connors and Bjorn Borg finish up their series of Great Debates, which continued on a dusty patch of clay in the borough of Queens last Sunday, both should be old enough to require wheelchairs and wise enough to give the game of tennis back to somebody else. This is the only conclusion to be reached following a season in which Connors and Borg divided all the spoils in sight, and inevitably came face to face across the net at the West Side Tennis Club in the finals of the $416,600 U.S. Open. They are magnificently matched adversaries and they thrust and parried each other through four sets of spellbinding tennis.

When Connors defeated Borg 6-4, 3-6, 7-6, 6-4 over three hours of pace and power, he not only won his second Open in three years but also stopped Borg's run of 19 straight match triumphs which had threatened to eclipse all of Jimbo's own achievements.

Connors is now 6-1 in career matches with Borg, but the kid is getting tougher. "I have a few years left to win this tournament," he said after losing by the margin of a thrilling third-set tie-break, which Connors admitted was "the best I've ever played."

The gap between the two is probably as narrow as that. Connors won all of two games more than Borg, but the official score sheet showed Borg with the edge in points, 123 to 121 [see below].

So the race for No. 1 in the world is hardly settled. "I feel I've dominated the game this year," Connors said. "But Bjorn had WCT and Wimbledon so I wanted him here." Ultimately he got Borg by smashing low liners, pinning him in the corners and never permitting him enough time to unleash his topspin artillery with any consistency. The immense effort this required appeared to exhaust Connors in the first set, and he lost the second before he could regain control.

The crisis arrived in the third, after Connors had blown a 4-2, 40-0 lead to let Borg back up for the sixth service break in seven games. They continued through service to the 12-point tie-break, in which Borg had four set points at 6-4, 6-5, 8-7 and 9-8. But as 16,000 spectators sat enthralled by the drama, Borg played it too cozy and Connors crunched for broke, thrice drilling approaches deep enough to set up knock-off volleys. To rescue the fourth set point, Connors shot a forehand bullet down the line that Borg could only stare after.

But Bjorn had his moments. Last February, when he lost the U.S. Pro Indoor to Connors in Philadelphia, he had quit in the third set. Now he has his Wimbledon championship behind him and the confidence to face up to Connors' relentless pounding. He got up from a nasty spill in the third set to work smartly on Connors' faltering forehand. He saved a set point himself in the tie-break before carelessly pushing a backhand wide to lose 11-9. And he made a battle of the fourth set after falling behind 2-4 and 15-40. Though his subpar serving continued to plague him, Borg won two more games and saved two match points in the final moments before it was over.

"He hits 20 or 30 balls back coming at him a million miles an hour," said Connors of Borg. "I can't count him out anymore. It was five seconds after the last point that I realized the match was over."

Connors was asked where Borg had improved. "Everywhere," he said. "I have to play great to beat him. Every time, we kill each other. Those people saw some of the best tennis today they'll ever see."

(Curry Kirkpatrick)

So I think even though there's no suggestion of an analysis here -- no stats or anything else -- it does show one popular source describing a close race.

At that point tennis fans might have been expecting more meetings between them before the year was out, but they didn't meet -- and neither attended the Masters in December. After the USO, per the ATP, Borg didn't win any more titles, while Connors won two more in Cologne and Wembley.

That's just checking the ATP, of course, but an interesting note: SI mentions a 19-match winning streak by Borg in the summer, which is the same as the ATP has, consisting of Wimbledon, Boston, and the run to the USO final.

About the total points won in the USO final: in my own count Connors is leading by 141-139. That's very different from SI's number and the difference seems surprising, but that's the state of tennis stats in the 70s. The NY Times boxscore actually had Connors leading by 114-104.
 
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...I have a question about the Wikipedia entry above, because it says "World Tennis or Michael Sutter," implying that they're the same source)...

I changed the "World Tennis or Michel Sutter," I've originally written in "World Tennis and Michel Sutter," (my original "or" was inclusive and not exclusive). As urban recalled that World Tennis had Vilas on cover. Sutter claimed that Vilas #1 in his books "Les Meilleurs Du Tennis" (published in January 1978 ) and "Vainqueurs 1946-1991". So these sources are completely different.
 
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I was checking out information on the Avis Challenge Cup for 1976 and according to this website (which I can't verify for it's accuracy) Nastase won it.

Here's the paragraph on it--During the first half of 1976, Năstase won four tournaments (Atlanta WCT, Avis Challenge Cup WCT, U.S. Open Indoor, and La Costa), and head-to-head, he led Connors 2–1, Vilas 1–0, Ashe 1–0, and Borg 1–0. Năstase did not enter the Australian Open, which was again avoided by most of the top players. Ilie Nastase was prevented from entering the French Open because he participated in World Team Tennis. In the second half of the year, Nastase lost to Borg in the men's singles final of Wimbledon and in the semifinals of the U.S. Open. Năstase won three other tournaments during the second half of the year, the Pepsi Grand Slam, South Orange, and the 4-man tournament of Caracas, Venezuela, in October (not to be confused with the Caracas WCT tournament in March), making seven tournament championships for the year. and here's the link to it--
http://www.all-about-tennis.com/ilie-nastase.html

I think it may have been similar to the Tennis Champions Classic in that it may not have been played over a period of a few days like a normal tournament but perhaps a match between two players every week but I think it can be considered a tournament.

That Nastase paragraph is a copy of what I wrote in Wikipedia. And I slightly changed it because Nastase beat twice Borg in the first half of the year (exhibition in Copenhagen, Denmark, Indoor Carpet,April 28, 7-6 7-6 6-7 7-6 then WCT Avis Challenge Cup, Keauhou-Kona, Hawaii, Hard, SF, May 16, 6-1 3-6 0-6 6-3 6-4)

I haven't World Tennis to hand but it was played from mid-January to mid-May (about 1 match a week). It was a round-robin affair exactly as the Masters, with 8 players and the best 2 players of each group being qualified for the semis : if I'm not mistaken what I remember was that Ashe, Borg, Newcombe and Ramirez were in one group and Nastase, Rosewall, Alexander and Laver in another. Ashe ended 1st of his group ahead of Borg and Nastase 1st ahead of Rosewall in the other group so in the semis Nastase met Borg, and Ashe met Rosewall (in the final Nastase beat Ashe). I'm not completely sure so one can check.
 
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pc1

G.O.A.T.
That Nastase paragraph is a copy of what I wrote in Wikipedia. And I slightly changed it because Nastase beat twice Borg in the first half of the year (exhibition in Copenhagen, Denmark, Indoor Carpet,April 28, 7-6 7-6 6-7 7-6 then WCT Avis Challenge Cup, Keauhou-Kona, Hawaii, Hard, SF, May 16, 6-1 3-6 0-6 6-3 6-4)

I haven't World Tennis to hand but it was played from mid-January to mid-May (about 1 match a week). It was a round-robin affair exactly as the Masters, with 8 players and the best 2 players of each group being qualified for the semis : if I'm not mistaken what I remember was that Ashe, Borg, Newcombe and Ramirez were in one group and Nastase, Rosewall, Alexander and Laver in another. Ashe ended 1st of his group ahead of Borg and Nastase 1st ahead of Rosewall in the other group so in the semis Nastase met Borg, and Ashe met Rosewall (in the final Nastase beat Ashe). I'm not completely sure so one can check.

Good job Carlo. I remember watching the tournament on television so I vaguely remember some of the details but it's been so long that I have forgotten a lot about the tournament.
 

urban

Legend
I am not familiar with the TV coverage in the US, because there were no transmissions to Europe or Germany then. But i think, the Avis Cup was a special for TV made event, and the matches were recorded and shown often much later. I don't know precisely, if the players were flown in to Hawai separately for every single match, or if they played a tournament within a week, which was shown in single match format each week.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
I am not familiar with the TV coverage in the US, because there were no transmissions to Europe or Germany then. But i think, the Avis Cup was a special for TV made event, and the matches were recorded and shown often much later. I don't know precisely, if the players were flown in to Hawai separately for every single match, or if they played a tournament within a week, which was shown in single match format each week.

Urban, this is from memory so I could be incorrect but I don't think so. I recall watching Laver and Rosewall on television playing live in the Avis Cup. It was not a taped event in the United States. I cannot speak for other areas outside the United States.
 

urban

Legend
Thanks, pc 1. The whole exo problem in the 70s and 80s is quite difficult. Besides the Avis Cup and the Pepsi Grand Slam, the Antwerp tournament for the Diamond Racket in the 80s was a great tournament. I have seen a lot of matches there between Mac, Lendl, and Becker, which were hotly contested.
 

krosero

Legend
Urban, this is from memory so I could be incorrect but I don't think so. I recall watching Laver and Rosewall on television playing live in the Avis Cup. It was not a taped event in the United States. I cannot speak for other areas outside the United States.
There's a notice in the New York Times about it: "Ten matches will be televised live by NBC on Sunday afternoons, beginning Feb. 15 with Laver vs. Ken Rosewall." (Jan. 21, 1976).

Thereafter there are reports about the tournament all throughout the spring, for example Borg beat Newk on Feb. 22, and Nastase d. Borg on May 17 (6-1, 3-6, 0-6, 6-3, 6-4).

I recall the loss to Nastase often getting mentioned as the start of Borg's winning streak in five-set matches. After Borg beat Tanner at 1980 USO, the NY Times wrote, "His last loss in the fifth set was to Ilie Nastase in Hawaii four years ago."
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
There's a notice in the New York Times about it: "Ten matches will be televised live by NBC on Sunday afternoons, beginning Feb. 15 with Laver vs. Ken Rosewall." (Jan. 21, 1976).

Thereafter there are reports about the tournament all throughout the spring, for example Borg beat Newk on Feb. 22, and Nastase d. Borg on May 17 (6-1, 3-6, 0-6, 6-3, 6-4).

I recall the loss to Nastase often getting mentioned as the start of Borg's winning streak in five-set matches. After Borg beat Tanner at 1980 USO, the NY Times wrote, "His last loss in the fifth set was to Ilie Nastase in Hawaii four years ago."

Thanks Krosero. The thing I remember about that Laver against Rosewall match was how badly outplayed Laver was by Rosewall and how annoyed Rod was. I think Vines refers to that match in his book "Tennis-Myth and Method."
 

krosero

Legend
Thanks Krosero. The thing I remember about that Laver against Rosewall match was how badly outplayed Laver was by Rosewall and how annoyed Rod was. I think Vines refers to that match in his book "Tennis-Myth and Method."
do you recall Nastase/Borg at all? I've just always been curious about it, Nastase coming back from 2-4 in the fifth (and after getting bageled by Borg in the third).
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
master's

Connors won the '77 Masters, true -- it was played in January '78 and capped off the 1977 season. The Masters finishing the 1976 season was played in December '76.

Neither Borg nor Connors attended. They played a round-robin match at the Masters in January '80.

AHA...thanks for clearing that up.....I was confused...so why didn't Jimmy and Bjorn play the '76 Masters in December?
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
Diamond Racket Exo

Thanks, pc 1. The whole exo problem in the 70s and 80s is quite difficult. Besides the Avis Cup and the Pepsi Grand Slam, the Antwerp tournament for the Diamond Racket in the 80s was a great tournament. I have seen a lot of matches there between Mac, Lendl, and Becker, which were hotly contested.

Forgot about that one....it was a way neat prize! Very unique, no? And, I do miss those exos....I never thought the guys were dogging it, either. They seemed to really want to win...combination of pride and money at stake, I suppose. today, exos are kind of like a circus atmosphere, when they infrequently occur....when was the last SERIOUS exo, frankly?
 
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