RPT Spanish Training Model

tennis_balla · Dec 25, 2009

I understand your point but its difficult to judge without knowing all the information and purpose about the drills at hand.
That drill is AS-C Basic Drill #9. It works the first step in getting to the volley. I'm not sure if they were using a varient of it because they were going a lot faster but the way we did it was you push off and cut the angle on the volley, then use your front left leg on the forehand side to push back to the T, then repeat on the backhand. Push off and and move in on an angle and then push back with your right leg and move back to the T. Its a drill that isolates a certain movement done on the tennis court and make it better but also working your legs that much harder by having to push back.

There are many different levels you can do on court of course in your training as a coach as you know. Feeding to a specific spot and working on technique in a more controlled manner, such as this drill, to moving the player around more but still standing in one spot feeding. Then you can do like in the RPT video and move as you feed according to where the player hits the ball or have set targets. Then theres the more interactive feeding where you feed the next ball according to how the player hit the previous, to doing live ball drills with the player or having 2 players do live ball drills against each other. Like Luis says in the video, each step up the coach loses a bit of control over the situation at hand but the player gains (if done correctly) a more match specific experience.

Its the same in the drill from the AS-C video where they had the kids start off at the T, move back, hit a forehand and then come in and hit a volley and then do the same off the backhand side (Basic Drill #7). Of course you would never move back like that if you were playing a match, but thats not the point of the drill. Its not a match specific drill. It works 2 things at once. First getting behind the ball on your approach and second moving in to your volleys.
Moving back behind the T and hitting a forehand or backhand is easier then at the baseline, so it can also be used to help the player understand and learn the proper movement without having the pressure to do it from the baseline which is more difficult when you first start doing it if they are having trouble with it. Its a great drill and I use this one quite a lot.

5263 · Dec 25, 2009

tennis_balla said:
Of course you would never move back like that if you were playing a match, but thats not the point of the drill. Its not a match specific drill. It works 2 things at once. First getting behind the ball on your approach and second moving in to your volleys.

I'm glad we can agree that it is not something you would expect to do during a point and that we can discuss this reasonably. I get your point that it is not the "point of the drill", but unfortunately it has a serious effect on the technique of the Volley, thus a neg. data consequence. If it is one that you are willing to accept, I understand that, but personally I would not do that drill in conjunction with a volley. Maybe a catch could be considered in my case.

tennis_balla · Dec 25, 2009

A 'negative data consequence' because the player moves back? I mean thats almost like saying practicing serves with a basket is wrong because you don't work on getting ready for the return, but instead you relax after the serve is hit.
Of course we all agree this is not the case because the player understands the purpose of serving this way with a basket, and knows that in a match they must be ready after the serve is hit for the on coming ball. Thats the same case here, the player has to understand or rather it is the coaches job to explain to the player before the drill is started why they are moving this way, what they are working on, and that it is only for the purpose of this drill. I don't believe the human mind is that stupid to not be able to differentiate these things, at any level of play. Now if this was the only drill on the volley or movement at the net that was practiced, then thats different but its not. Its only one piece of the puzzle, one drill out of the Basic 11 at AS-C which make up their core system.

5263 · Dec 25, 2009

tennis_balla said:
A 'negative data consequence' because the player moves back? I mean thats almost like saying practicing serves with a basket is wrong because you don't work on getting ready for the return, but instead you relax after the serve is hit.
Of course we all agree this is not the case because the player understands the purpose of serving this way with a basket, and knows that in a match they must be ready after the serve is hit for the on coming ball. Thats the same case here, the player has to understand or rather it is the coaches job to explain to the player before the drill is started why they are moving this way, what they are working on, and that it is only for the purpose of this drill. I don't believe the human mind is that stupid to not be able to differentiate these things, at any level of play. Now if this was the only drill on the volley or movement at the net that was practiced, then thats different but its not. Its only one piece of the puzzle, one drill out of the Basic 11 at AS-C which make up their core system.

Interesting point of view you express and very logical as well.
But on the other side, my experience as a D1 college football player, Black Belt Martial Arts instructor, Navy instructor for Test Pilots landing on ships, along with my diverse Tennis instruction background, all share the constant that you play as you practice. That if you repeat a flaw over and over in practice for whatever reason, the nasty little flaw will slip up and bite you without exception.

It was very clear the negative effect on balance and form of stroke in the vid of volleys. Often she was already moving back as she contacted the volley. You don't need to cut your form short to serve from a basket, as she cut her form in this volley drill, but even so, I do prefer to see a server add a prep step at the end of the prac serves. I often have my servers hit to another player who is practicing rtns, which allows them to get in the habit of serving, then prep for that first shot after the rtn. It turns into a 4 shot drill as the returner also gets to hit one more ball so they are prepped to hit a shot after making the return. (Also leaves a bunch of balls on the serving side of the court)

There is no need for us to beat this to death. You are not going to be swayed by my observations and broad experience in this area, and I don't expect to be swayed that high reps with a poor volley tech will be adequately overridden by other aspects of the training.

maverick66 · Dec 25, 2009

5263 said:
But on the other side, my experience as a D1 college football player, Black Belt Martial Arts instructor, Navy instructor for Test Pilots landing on ships, along with my diverse Tennis instruction background

You should meet Leed. You two have alot in common. By the way you left out the part where you saved The Pope, The Queen of England, and President Obama from Godzilla using only a spoon.

tennis_balla · Dec 25, 2009

My brother is a professional airline pilot, I don't know but sounds fishy especially the Navy instructor for Test Pilots landing on ships.

10ispro · Dec 25, 2009

5263 said:
Interesting point of view you express and very logical as well.
But on the other side, my experience as a D1 college football player, Black Belt Martial Arts instructor, Navy instructor for Test Pilots landing on ships, along with my diverse Tennis instruction background, all share the constant that you play as you practice. That if you repeat a flaw over and over in practice for whatever reason, the nasty little flaw will slip up and bite you without exception.

It was very clear the negative effect on balance and form of stroke in the vid of volleys. Often she was already moving back as she contacted the volley. You don't need to cut your form short to serve from a basket, as she cut her form in this volley drill, but even so, I do prefer to see a server add a prep step at the end of the prac serves. I often have my servers hit to another player who is practicing rtns, which allows them to get in the habit of serving, then prep for that first shot after the rtn. It turns into a 4 shot drill as the returner also gets to hit one more ball so they are prepped to hit a shot after making the return. (Also leaves a bunch of balls on the serving side of the court)

There is no need for us to beat this to death. You are not going to be swayed by my observations and broad experience in this area, and I don't expect to be swayed that high reps with a poor volley tech will be adequately overridden by other aspects of the training.

background info. the girl in the video was a newer girl to the academy and it is obvious that she had little experience doing the drill which is why she is so uncomfortable and off balance.
While You have very valid points that practice should mimic play as much as possible--as tennisballa pointed out, this is only a small subset
SC-A teaches everything from a whole-part-whole perspective.
the entire drill is show first will and does simulate the course of a point. then individual segments are broken down and then it is brought backtogether again.

If you are actually a black belt martial artist, altho you didnot specify what discipline it was in, that is agreat example of how very segmented training can be. even katas are brokendown into individual components 1st and then brought backinto the entire form. Same with wrestling. How many hours are spent learning just to shoot for a single or doubl leg takedown with an abrupt stop beore the person is actually taken down?

SC-A has a strong emphasis on the physical and mental component in development. Technical is done within the confines of a tactic and situation. Individual aspects are broken down and refined and then brought back into the larger drill.

While I donot agree completely with some of the stuff SC-A and spanish method does, their methodlogy has produced more great players at all levels than many other countries including the US.

5263 · Dec 25, 2009

tennis_balla said:
My brother is a professional airline pilot, I don't know but sounds fishy especially the Navy instructor for Test Pilots landing on ships.

I'll give you that, lol, but it's worded oddly so as to save a little space. In Naval Aviation, the single area that gets the most attention is ship landings. So as the Director of CRM {which contains the Human Factors specialty}, Instructor for NAWC (Naval Air Warfare Center) and Navy Test Pilot Center, it was a big focus of much that we did.
As poorly as I may have written that, it is no more goofy than "professional" airline pilot, as what other type of airline pilot is there except a professional? Now I never would have made a comment like that except in response to your comments about my post quickly scribbled in 45 secs. We are not preparing dissertations here. And not to try to make too much of it, but the things I mentioned represent less than half of the highlights of my experience.

5263 · Dec 25, 2009

maverick66 said:
You should meet Leed. You two have alot in common. By the way you left out the part where you saved The Pope, The Queen of England, and President Obama from Godzilla using only a spoon.

And maybe when you get a few more years in, You will have done a couple of pretty neat things in your life too, besides spend your daddy's money at high priced tennis academies?

And by the way, why would I save any of those you listed? Even if even a spoon where not required, as just a shake should wake them from the nightmare. You do know Godzilla is not real don't you? lol

5263 · Dec 25, 2009

10ispro said:
background info. the girl in the video was a newer girl to the academy and it is obvious that she had little experience doing the drill which is why she is so uncomfortable and off balance.

If you are actually a black belt martial artist, altho you didnot specify what discipline it was in, that is agreat example of how very segmented training can be. even katas are brokendown into individual components 1st and then brought backinto the entire form.

While I do not agree completely with some of the stuff SC-A and spanish method does, their methodlogy has produced more great players at all levels than many other countries including the US.

Couple of interesting points here-
1st- good that we agree she was uncomfortable and off balance. I'm not the one who put up the vid as an example of RPT or the one who said, "you can really tell the USPTA is out dated and conventional and promoting 'false data' when they put up conferences such as this"

2ond- you are not a Black Belt instructor are you, with this explanation of how things are segmented in forms and Kata. I didn't go into my background is such that trolls like Mav66 lose it with disbelief, even though compared to many I trained with, it is little to mention. If you really are interested, my black belts are in Weapons, Shorin-ryu, and Tae Kwon do, along with a brown belt in Shotokan without getting into several other areas of my study like MMA and Kung Fu specialties. But just like in tennis, I've been fortunate to train with some of the best in the world and I'm happy to leave it at that.

3rd- My comments were not to downgrade the RPT system, as it is probably the leading accepted system out there currently and doing some REAL good stuff, but only to answer the backhand comment about the presence of false data or not. I find it to be far ahead of what has been going on in the US over the last 20 years.

tennis_balla · Dec 26, 2009

I said it, yea I was being a smart ass but also because I don't agree with the term 'false data' being thrown around like that.

Here's a video of a young pimple-faced Roger Federer doing some on court and off court training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jwh0GfA_eo

If you look at this video, I'm sure you could find lots of negative data consequences, such as at 1:54 where he's moving up and down at the net with a rubber band attached to his waist for example but you can't possibly say that all these drills effected Roger to such a degree that it hurt him in his career because he didn't practice as he plays. Like I said before and what 10ispro mentioned also, its only one drill of many used to work on a specific area.

You can even say that IMG/Bollettieri have some weak points in their training or could do it better or different, but you gotta respect their system and their ability to keep producing a ton of talent over the past decades and still today. Sure, a lot of those kids were already pretty developed before they came to IMG but its obvious IMG would change certain things in their game and have the kids be taught their way.

5263 · Dec 26, 2009

tennis_balla said:
I said it, yea I was being a smart ass but also because I don't agree with the term 'false data' being thrown around like that.

Here's a video of a young pimple-faced Roger Federer doing some on court and off court training.

You can even say that IMG/Bollettieri have some weak points in their training or could do it better or different, but you gotta respect their system and their ability to keep producing a ton of talent over the past decades and still today. Sure, a lot of those kids were already pretty developed before they came to IMG but its obvious IMG would change certain things in their game and have the kids be taught their way.

I see all the dif in the world in how Roger's drill is done and the vid of the RPT drill. You don't?

But yes, everyone must overcome false data to one extent or another. I just don't agree with adding any that is known, even if only a part of several drills. Fed's drill shows how that drill can be done better, and still fit into the overall system.

And No, I don't have to respect what IMG has done in the way of developing/training players, but no need to get into the negatives here in this way. I'll just say that I don't see it as a value proposition.

10ispro · Dec 26, 2009

There will NEVER be a be all end all system of training for anyone. everyone has different needs to address and just about everyone has a different approach to even the same problem.
Realistically to what will work best for someone is to find a program or coach who has a methodology and philosophy that you want to believe in and buy into. Not everyone will buy and thats the reality--no reason for anyone to get upset. If it isnt for you--its not for you--end of story.
EVERY system has flaws especially if you put every detail under a microscope. It would be ridiculous to say that any training system is perfect.

RPT address Tennis training from a different perspective than most with a strong emphasis on the receiving component whereas majority of other systems and coaches focuses primarily on sending.
But since how someone positions to receive will directly affect how someone sends the ball, which then will affect recovery....
BUT people have still produced champions using a method that emphasizes sending 1st.

I still dont get wtf anyone is talking about false data being presented by USPTA in any of the videos. B/c a girl was off balance was not an example of false data, if anything it reinforces the point about the importance of positioning,balance, footwork and recovery.

in the end, there really isnt a right way and a wrong way, but most times there is a better way. I think its ignorant to say one thing is completely right and something else is completely wrong, especially if you are basing it just on personal experience, but you arent everyone else. you are you.

tennis_balla · Dec 27, 2009

Thats kind of what I was trying to get across also 10ispro.

Personally, if I was in Florida and had a chance to attend a coaching conference put on by IMG/Bollettieri I would go. It would be stupid not to and deny yourself of learning more. There are always things to learn and take away from and incorporate into your own coaching. Even though I do not agree with the majority of what MTM stands for I still took some pointers, specifically from Oscars 101 Tennis video for beginners. Now I hardly coach beginners but its still a plus to know more.
RPT/AS-C isn't an end all be all, and they don't come across this way at all either. At AS-C they even said these drills can be changed and modified to your liking, they don't mind as long as you understand the principles behind them which is the most important.

5263 · Dec 27, 2009

10ispro said:
I still dont get wtf anyone is talking about false data being presented by USPTA in any of the videos. B/c a girl was off balance was not an example of false data, if anything it reinforces the point about the importance of positioning,balance, footwork and recovery.

in the end, there really isnt a right way and a wrong way, but most times there is a better way. I think its ignorant to say one thing is completely right and something else is completely wrong, especially if you are basing it just on personal experience, but you arent everyone else. you are you.

It's not that she is just off balance, as much as it has great effect on her form in several neg. ways and is allowed, even supported in the instruction. I didn't pick this vid as an example of RPT. I didn't bring up the subject of false data in relation to it either, but just responded to another poster who brought it up with a backhand type comment. It would have never come up except that remark. This is also not nearly all the false data in thoses vids, but I just mentioned this one as it jumped out as such a clear example.

What you say above is much in line with what I said here about how there is always some false data to overcome, but not wanting to include it when avoidable-
"But yes, everyone must overcome false data to one extent or another. I just don't agree with adding any that is known, even if only a part of several drills. Fed's drill shows how that drill can be done better, and still fit into the overall system."

5263 · Dec 27, 2009

Ash_Smith said:
Luis is a legend, the passion the man has is infectious! Was chatting to him last weekend about the state of tennis in britain and spain. He believes the Spanish Federation need to make changes now or in 8 years or so after the current crop of players retire they will have no top players.

The reason the RPT system of teaching works so well is that nearly all spanish coaches are trained by the RPT so there is a unified and cohesive approach.

The irony is the rest of the world are just catching on to the "Spanish" (RPT) system when they are about to develop it to move it forward for the next generation.

An honest question here-
If the RPT system works so well, then why is there concern that the next gen of players in missing?
This would be the group of players that would have had the most benefit from this system during it's developed prime so to speak, right?

Sup2Dresq · Dec 27, 2009

5263 said:
An honest question here-
If the RPT system works so well, then why is there concern that the next gen of players in missing?
This would be the group of players that would have had the most benefit from this system during it's developed prime so to speak, right?

For USTA quick start tennis, the USTA section I'm in, is adopting the Belgian kids programs. Why? They said in training, that it was because of the success the Belgians had with kids. Kids elsewhere, left tennis because it wasn't fun. They also really pushed the program because it produced Kim and Justine. This was introduced what.. maybe 4 months ago. Guess things move slowly.

In the case of the RPT, it may not be that it works so well. I think its pretty good stuff from what I've seen. It's perhaps being adopted because it's better than nothing. We are losing a lot of players to other sports.

Time to do something before players here move on and state they are now world class soccer players overnight.

5263 · Dec 27, 2009

Sup, I agree that things do move slowly, but just thought RPT should be hitting it's prime about now if what they are doing is one the best on the market?

10ispro · Dec 28, 2009

5263 said:
Sup, I agree that things do move slowly, but just thought RPT should be hitting it's prime about now if what they are doing is one the best on the market?

Youd have to wait a few more years to really start seeing the next generation of players. Before there was SC-A there was still this method of movement and patterns of play. I cant remember who the initial person was who coached Emilio and others in Spain, but he also went to Argentina and other countries as well.
I believe over the past several decades there has only been a few years that Spain has not had more players in the top 100 than most other countries on the Men's side. Womens side gets slightly more even. The years when Agassi, Courrier, Weaton, Chang, Martin, Krickstien, Arias, Sampras etc....were dominant were the years that the US had a clear advantage in number of players which would have been late 80s and early 90s.

Now Spain has Verdasco, Ferrer, Ferrero, Nadal, Lopez ,Moya, Almagro, Robredo--all did not train at Sc-A but that trained under a very similar system.
Murray is a graduated of SC-A as is Kuznetsova. Hantukova spent a couple years refining her game here as well as other Top Pros on both sides.
Sc-A had the top Junior in the world Grigor Demitriov as a graduate as well.

5263 · Dec 28, 2009

10ispro said:
Youd have to wait a few more years to really start seeing the next generation of players. Before there was SC-A there was still this method of movement and patterns of play. I cant remember who the initial person was who coached Emilio and others in Spain, but he also went to Argentina and other countries as well.
I believe over the past several decades there has only been a few years that Spain has not had more players in the top 100 than most other countries on the Men's side. Womens side gets slightly more even. The years when Agassi, Courrier, Weaton, Chang, Martin, Krickstien, Arias, Sampras etc....were dominant were the years that the US had a clear advantage in number of players which would have been late 80s and early 90s.

Now Spain has Verdasco, Ferrer, Ferrero, Nadal, Lopez ,Moya, Almagro, Robredo--all did not train at Sc-A but that trained under a very similar system.
Murray is a graduated of SC-A as is Kuznetsova. Hantukova spent a couple years refining her game here as well as other Top Pros on both sides.
Sc-A had the top Junior in the world Grigor Demitriov as a graduate as well.

I'm not trying to say anything negative about RPT and it looks they are doing many things well. I think they may be much better than the IMG academies, but I was just asking about this statement by an RPT poster, quoting Luis-

"He believes the Spanish Federation need to make changes now or in 8 years or so after the current crop of players retire they will have no top players."

Personally I don't like counting great players as their successes when they come in to train like is done at IMG, as we are looking more for players developed. Bringing in players from all around the world that have already proven themselves, just means you do well enough not to disrupt them and maybe add a few subtle nuances. This is a great way to appear you are doing something special, but all you have done is market the location as a good place to train. But not nearly the same as developing home grown talent in volume from scratch.

10ispro · Dec 28, 2009

B/c the RPT Mission to develop complete people as well as players, it will honestly be tough for anyone except those on the inside to know the numbers. I do know that every player that have played that opt'd to goto college went on scholarship for Tennis.
But outside of that they also had many graduates who went on to do other things, one work in some Foreign policy administration, and there were other examples of players with great jobs outside of tennis. so to them, the goal is develop a whole person, which is why education is a major component at SC-A not just a side card.

W Cats · Jan 4, 2010

Here is a 15 segment series of RPT progressions I found on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmA8x5_Zb0U&feature=channel

clta · Jan 7, 2010

1st off thanks a lot for the link W Cats.

I've watched the majority of the 15 videos and have a few questions

1) On the slice serve video, why is the coach not finishing on the left side. Wouldnt that would be much easier to slice ? He finishes on the right side

2) The forehand groundstroke video didn't mention on how they actually teach the use of the left hand. What I mean is a video where Luis pointed out the analogy of when hammering trying to be as close as possible to be accurate. How does the RPT actually teach that part ?

Many thanks for answering it. I've just email-ed RPT and got a reply that by February their calendar will be out

millenium · Jan 8, 2010

Does anybody know if RPT have progressions of the slice backhand?
I have always wanted to know the progressions of the slice backhand?

W Cats · Jan 8, 2010

I've watched the majority of the 15 videos and have a few questions

1) On the slice serve video, why is the coach not finishing on the left side. Wouldnt that would be much easier to slice ? He finishes on the right side

2) The forehand groundstroke video didn't mention on how they actually teach the use of the left hand. What I mean is a video where Luis pointed out the analogy of when hammering trying to be as close as possible to be accurate. How does the RPT actually teach that part ?

I'm not sure but I think you'll find the answer to the questions if you watch the entire vid on the slice and forehand. By the end of both vids you'll see that the follow through and finish is on the right side on the serve and the left hand gets active on the FH.

clta · Jan 8, 2010

yea i know at the end he does that.. but why isn't it right from the beginning which is the easier option to learn to manipulate the ball to the left side ?

on the 2nd part, luis was emphasizing on it where else in the video it was just passing through..so im wondering how they actually teach that ? by just saying hey do this before hitting ? or is there any way of teaching it ..

many thanks for the reply

Ash_Smith · Jan 19, 2010

clta said:
yea i know at the end he does that.. but why isn't it right from the beginning which is the easier option to learn to manipulate the ball to the left side ?

It's in order to emphasize the extension and pronation - the racquet will finish across the body when the action is performed faster as there will be increased shoulder rotation - in the vid Yves is going through the progressions slowly, when they're linked together at full speed you'll see the finsih you're looking for. Remember, the arm doesn't come across the body on it's own, it's the roation of the racquet side that brings it across after the extension.

Hope that makes some sense!

Ash_Smith · Jan 25, 2010

RPT revised teaching progressions on the way - slight simplification of the progressions w_cats posted - easier for the coach to teach and easier for the student to learn. Using the CDS (Concept Drive System) there's one less progression on each shot whilst still maintaining the technical fundamentals. Filming soon for videos.

tennis_balla · Feb 10, 2010

Ash_Smith said:
RPT revised teaching progressions on the way - slight simplification of the progressions w_cats posted - easier for the coach to teach and easier for the student to learn. Using the CDS (Concept Drive System) there's one less progression on each shot whilst still maintaining the technical fundamentals. Filming soon for videos.

When will these be available?

W Cats · Feb 10, 2010

I saw 2 Spanish Drill DVD's on the USPTA website. Has anyone had a chance to check them out yet?

http://uspro**********.com/default.aspx/MenuItemID/1305/MenuSubID/221/MenuGroup/Menu.htm

julian · Feb 10, 2010

Stars

W Cats said:
I saw 2 Spanish Drill DVD's on the USPTA website. Has anyone had a chance to check them out yet?

http://uspro**********.com/default.aspx/MenuItemID/1305/MenuSubID/221/MenuGroup/Menu.htm

As you may see stars/ellipse do NOT life easier

W Cats · Feb 10, 2010

http://uspro**********.com/default.aspx/MenuItemID/1305/MenuSubID/221/MenuGroup/Menu.htm

Second verse different from the first.

TW must be blocking it.

It's at the US PRO TENNIS SHOP site under DVD library> on court with USPTA

W Cats · Feb 10, 2010

Just checked TW to see if it was an item they stocked - nope. I had assumed that since it was on the USPTA site and a procduct of theirs that TW didn't carry it.

tennis_balla · Feb 10, 2010

w_cats, there's a few on the USPTA site including some from Emilio Sanchez and the Luis Mediero RPT Training Model DVD from which I posted the video clips on Youtube for this thread. So thats the only one I have experience in. Its a shame cause Pato Alvarez at AS-C offered to sell me one of his DVD's, should of taken it but I didn't know who he was at the time.

W Cats · Feb 10, 2010

I just ordered the two from the USPTA site.

W Cats · Feb 18, 2010

Just watched the Spanish Practice Patterns: Hand-fed Drills DVD from USPTA and wow the information is rich. The disc is broken into two main sections, the edited presentation of the drills with adaptaions for varying ability levels was well done but what was on the bonus features of the disc was a taped session of the 2008 Player Development Conference was the gem of the disc. It had much more indepth info. and philosophy of their framework on creating a balanced foundational footwork movements that allows for efficient recovery and court coverage at the expense of what some might consider power from the legs.

tennis_balla · Feb 18, 2010

Yea the Spanish use the play tennis with your legs sort of mentality so to speak, which you can't argue with cause its true you can't play tennis well without good footwork. Many coaches teach technique, how to hit the ball etc but like Luis shows in the videos I posted its the 4 things combined (reading the ball, movement, technique, recovery) that make you a great tennis player and a better coach when you incorporate that into your teaching and not just show how to hit a forehand or backhand off easy constant feeding. The higher the level the more you hit balls out of your comfort zone and off balance. How well you manage those and set yourself up in the point to be able to hit the shots you want to hit is how well you trained or were trained to handle those situations.

W Cats · Mar 18, 2010

Tennis Balla & Ash Smith

I've watched the 2 Spanish DVD's a couple of times now and have a couple of questions maybe you guys or anyone else can help me with.

1. Luis and Emilio both talk about the importance of "getting behind the ball" when a player needs to move back in a defensive position to play the ball in the V or X drills. The way they ellaborate on it seems like they want you to hit it with more linear rather than angular movements, is this so?

2. Also in the same vein with hitting off the back foot on both wings they advocate hitting with more of an open stance on the backhand is this so?

3. During the seminar portion of the DVD someone asked about recovery position after a cross court exchange and they advocate that a player gets back the the "house" or center hash rather than 1/2 way from where you hit the shot to the center hash. Am I reading this right?

10ispro · Mar 18, 2010

W Cats said:
Tennis Balla & Ash Smith

I've watched the 2 Spanish DVD's a couple of times now and have a couple of questions maybe you guys or anyone else can help me with.

1. Luis and Emilio both talk about the importance of "getting behind the ball" when a player needs to move back in a defensive position to play the ball in the V or X drills. The way they ellaborate on it seems like they want you to hit it with more linear rather than angular movements, is this so?

2. Also in the same vein with hitting off the back foot on both wings they advocate hitting with more of an open stance on the backhand is this so?

3. During the seminar portion of the DVD someone asked about recovery position after a cross court exchange and they advocate that a player gets back the the "house" or center hash rather than 1/2 way from where you hit the shot to the center hash. Am I reading this right?

Emilio personally is not huge on Open stance especially moving forward.
Think of getting behind the ball another way. If you are familiar with soccer, in order for a player to trap a ball. he moves behind it and puts the outside foot out to trap it. so whether its moving laterally or diagonally, his goal is get his right leg behind the incoming ball.
Same concept. moving back on defense, you push from the backfoot which will usually natually put you in open or semi open stance to allow you to use your legs, hips and gain rotation.
moving forward, they teach primarily square/neutral stance bc your movement is more linear as you move forward to receive, hit and then start recovery moving to the net.

on both wings, it is important to get your body behind the ball so you can allow your body to rotate naturally. otherwise you start using your hands and arms too much to compensate for poor positioning. If you get behind the ball, then you can use your technique the way you would "normally" use it if you did not have to move.

I was at this conference when it was filmed. The lady who asked the question was bizarre to say the least. Her question was, in a crosscourt exchange, why Does Emilio want players to make a full recovery versus what many think is a simpler recovery by moving only partially back to the center to cover the higher percentage crosscourt return.
Emilio's perspective was the half way recovery leaves too much open on the other side.even a decent shot, could put you on defense and put you out of the court. So you should not train yourself to be "lazy" by not recovering the full distance.
Later on in the conference Luis talks about adapting the Spanish Method to suit your needs and your players and that players through experience will discover and make some of their own adaptation based on the situation.

I dont think its on the DVD, but if you watch the woman hit, shes barely a 2.5. Emilio had her come out to explain what she meant and she could barely make contact, it wasnt pretty by any means.

W Cats · Mar 18, 2010

Yes, they did leave her in the finished DVD a little embarassing I'd say. I was surprised that they had a player of that caliber at the conference. But I think her question was valid considering information I've read suggesting a 1/2 way recovery on a deep cc exchange.

So getting behind the ball is essentially moving to a position so that you can set up early enough to use an efficient weight transfer/ body rotation?

10ispro · Mar 18, 2010

W Cats said:
Yes, they did leave her in the finished DVD a little embarassing I'd say. I was surprised that they had a player of that caliber at the conference. But I think her question was valid considering information I've read suggesting a 1/2 way recovery on a deep cc exchange.

So getting behind the ball is essentially moving to a position so that you can set up early enough to use an efficient weight transfer/ body rotation?

correct. moving behind the ball is being able to put your foot/feet and body in a position so you can transfer weight and rotate or as Emilio says " so you can do the round thing"

So you have to keep in mind, that they were presenting how the Spanish Train. So would you start training initially by using the modified recovery or would you start training by using a full recovery and then as the player progresses and can use more tactics, then add in the modified situational recovery?
The X drill works on both sides, fairly equally, so it reinforces recovery toward the middle. You can modify it and just work on one V on one side slightly off center and train a different situation as well.
Nothing is really set in stone and they make adjustments as well.

also, players as they progress will usually start making adaptations of their own based on the situation.

I had the unfortunate pleasure of having that woman sit at my table during lunch. She was primarily there in a search for answers bc her kid plays alot of tournaments in Nor Cal or something.
Myself and some other Pros got into a heated debate with her, more like an argument bc she started saying that none of what Emilio and Luis made any sense bc they did not talk much about technique. She became very fixated that bc of a lack of better english words, Emilio said that if he gets a player from France versus other countries that he knows they will have the "right technique". Emilio meant, that they will have a solid foundation of movement and stroke patterns, this lady interpreted technique as purely how to hit the ball. She thinks that there is a "right" and "wrong" way technique.

She went on and on about how her kids new Pro spends majority of her sons lessons talking about racquet work and that its made all the difference but he still isnt getting great results. She saw no correlation between being in the right position and the ability to use the correct racquet work from that point. She views tennis as a game purely involving hitting a ball.

after we had finished eating, myself and the other Pros suddenly had something come up so we had to leave the table....

tennis_balla · Mar 18, 2010

Well said about the technique 10ispro. There's more to tennis then just making contact with a tennis ball and follow through.

tennis_balla · Jun 15, 2010

So I put these videos up for people to see some of the training methods coming out of Spain and to learn and expand their knowledge. I know its always risky with copyright issues and seems like I've been nailed. I've encouraged people to buy the DVD, buy other DVD's from USPTA and have never sent anyone a free copy even though I've been asked. I know this thread created interest and we had a good discussion going in the past and people have enjoyed the videos so I'm glad but its over. It seems like the USPTA doesn't like that and I got this warning when I logged into Youtube today.

ATTENTION
We have received copyright complaint(s) regarding material you posted, as follows:
from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about Spanish Training Model Part 3 of 4 - mxr80
Video ID: nfH_KB63k44
from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about Spanish Training Model Part 1 of 4 - mxr80
Video ID: 6Aj8jYfKqio
from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about Spanish Training Model Part 4 of 4 - mxr80
Video ID: pCcb_sYn7dA
from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about RPT Drills Part 1 (read description) - mxr80
Video ID: 5xo0ffkh-Z4
from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about Spanish Training Model Part 2 of 4 - mxr80
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from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about RPT Drills Part 2 (read description) - mxr80
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Please note: Repeat incidents of copyright infringement will resul in the deletion of your account and all videos you have uploaded. Please delete any videos for which you do not own the necessary rights, and refrain from uploading infringing videos.
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SFrazeur · Jun 15, 2010

"tennis_balla" It's because of your postings on youtube that I decided to buy those DVD and others related to it.

-SF

tennis_balla · Jun 15, 2010

Thanks man, and I'm sure others did as well but its ok, I understand why the USPTA did that so its cool. Just don't say I never did anything for you guys! haha

TriFloW · Oct 19, 2012

Just wondering if there is anywhere that I can see these videos I am in the uk and am considering getting them but would like to sample them first is this possible
Thanks in advance
Gary

Ash_Smith · Oct 19, 2012

Gary

Come to the RPT conference on 8/9th November and speak to the guys there - they should be able to point you in the right direction for resources. The members are on rpteurope.com also has some of the presentations and progressions etc, but you would need to join to see those (it is well worth joining though imo).

Anyway yeah, come to the conference - there's some great speakers this year...

5263 · Oct 19, 2012

Yes, quite interesting that the USPTA was complaining.
Do they sell these Vids?

Ash_Smith · Oct 19, 2012

^^^I don't believe they sell them as they were (if i'm remembering correctly) filmed from a presentation Luis did at the USPTA conference a couple of years back.

5263 · Oct 19, 2012

Ash_Smith said:
^^^I don't believe they sell them as they were (if i'm remembering correctly) filmed from a presentation Luis did at the USPTA conference a couple of years back.

Interesting they are concerned about the promotion of RPT.

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