I am begining to think my tennis elbow will never heal completely

Suezee · May 13, 2010

One thing you may not have tried...

Check out my thread titled "is it tendinitis or tendinosis?" I am a physical therapist who is fairly familiar with tendon problems, and understanding degenerative tendinopathies might help you understand why your problem is such a challenge to recover from. The treatment I eventually describe is called ASTYM, and it has a success rate of about 90% with lateral epicondylosis. As a tennis player myself, I treat alot of people from my club, so my reputation depends on it! This specific treatment can really get you started, and you may find that some of the other recommendations like raquet type, hand position, and strings can then really make a difference. (Those subjects are definitely NOT something I know about). Anyway, check out the thread and see what you think. I have an idea how frustrated you feel. I was out of the game for 7 months with a shoulder injury and just recently got back to playing. Can't get any games off my 15 year old son, but I'll keep trying.

mikeler · May 14, 2010

Suezee said:
Check out my thread titled "is it tendinitis or tendinosis?" I am a physical therapist who is fairly familiar with tendon problems, and understanding degenerative tendinopathies might help you understand why your problem is such a challenge to recover from. The treatment I eventually describe is called ASTYM, and it has a success rate of about 90% with lateral epicondylosis. As a tennis player myself, I treat alot of people from my club, so my reputation depends on it! This specific treatment can really get you started, and you may find that some of the other recommendations like raquet type, hand position, and strings can then really make a difference. (Those subjects are definitely NOT something I know about). Anyway, check out the thread and see what you think. I have an idea how frustrated you feel. I was out of the game for 7 months with a shoulder injury and just recently got back to playing. Can't get any games off my 15 year old son, but I'll keep trying.

This was a very informative thread and I highly recommend searching for it to anyone experiencing elbow issues. While I did not use this particular therapy, I was getting ready to try it when I got a severe stomach bug. After that, my elbow got way better. If anybody can figure that one out, let me know!

jimanuel12 · May 14, 2010

Suezee said:
Check out my thread titled "is it tendinitis or tendinosis?" I am a physical therapist who is fairly familiar with tendon problems, and understanding degenerative tendinopathies might help you understand why your problem is such a challenge to recover from. The treatment I eventually describe is called ASTYM, and it has a success rate of about 90% with lateral epicondylosis. As a tennis player myself, I treat alot of people from my club, so my reputation depends on it! This specific treatment can really get you started, and you may find that some of the other recommendations like raquet type, hand position, and strings can then really make a difference. (Those subjects are definitely NOT something I know about). Anyway, check out the thread and see what you think. I have an idea how frustrated you feel. I was out of the game for 7 months with a shoulder injury and just recently got back to playing. Can't get any games off my 15 year old son, but I'll keep trying.

thank you very much for the information, i checked it out and i have a clinic here in my home town.
if this thing does not heal soon, i will check it out and see what happens.
by the way, i am using the penetrex cream and it does seem to be improving since i started the cream, sounds crazy but the arm is better.

Suezee · May 15, 2010

mikeler said:
This was a very informative thread and I highly recommend searching for it to anyone experiencing elbow issues. While I did not use this particular therapy, I was getting ready to try it when I got a severe stomach bug. After that, my elbow got way better. If anybody can figure that one out, let me know!

This is off the current subject, but did you take anti-biotics when you had your stomach bug?

Slazenger07 · May 15, 2010

jimanuel12 said:
thanks, i will look into that sleeve.
i am using the penetrex cream now, for about 3 days, can't tell too much difference, but it may be too soon.
will let you know.

Yea thats not enough time, you'll need to use it for a week or two, depending on the severity of it, before you'll start to notice a big difference.

Slazenger07 · May 15, 2010

jimanuel12 said:
thank you very much for the information, i checked it out and i have a clinic here in my home town.
if this thing does not heal soon, i will check it out and see what happens.
by the way, i am using the penetrex cream and it does seem to be improving since i started the cream, sounds crazy but the arm is better.

Told ya man, somehow this stuff works. Great product

jimanuel12 · May 15, 2010

Slazenger07 said:
Told ya man, somehow this stuff works. Great product

so far, so good, i can tell a little difference. not willing to call it a miracle cream yet, but will wait and see.
hope it works for me, i do not want to start another theray right now.
thanks

mikeler · May 16, 2010

Suezee said:
This is off the current subject, but did you take anti-biotics when you had your stomach bug?

I did not take anything during that time except for gallons of Gatorade.

jimanuel12 · May 17, 2010

Slazenger07 said:
Use Penetrex Cream...its awesome, Ive had chronic T.E. for a couple years now, I have used Penetrex 3-4 times a day for two weeks and it feels so good I actually played for a little while without my elbow brace the other day, which I havent been able to do in forever.

i meant to ask you, do you use the flexbar exercises also or just the cream and leave out the exercises until the arm is better?

Slazenger07 · May 17, 2010

I dont use a flexbar, just the cream. My arm felt great playing for 3 hours yesterday...no pain.

jimanuel12 · May 19, 2010

Slazenger07 said:
I dont use a flexbar, just the cream. My arm felt great playing for 3 hours yesterday...no pain.

how long before you could tell a great difference?
i have been using the penetrex cream for about 10 days now and i can tell "a little" difference but not the great difference i wanted.
maybe it is still too soon.
the arm still hurts, not as bad, but not healed either.

jimanuel12 · May 23, 2012

jimanuel12 said:
how long before you could tell a great difference?
i have been using the penetrex cream for about 10 days now and i can tell "a little" difference but not the great difference i wanted.
maybe it is still too soon.
the arm still hurts, not as bad, but not healed either.

update:

i used the entire jar - a little better but no "miracle cure" for sure.
as i mentioned in other posts, i tried "everything" i could think of - all to no avail.
now i am trying the ASYMT massage therapy and so far a little better after just one real treatment.
will keep you posted.

also on another note - i read about MSM cream - i did not try it - i really just gave up on the creams, i don't see how a cream or oil can penetrate deep enough into the tissue to be much help.
if anyone has had great success with MSM cream, then please let us know.

SystemicAnomaly · May 23, 2012

^ MSM can penetrate if used with DMSO or, possibly, with Emu oil. Note that DMSO itself converts to MSM in the body/tissue. Some products use liposome action for penetration. Here are a couple that might help:

http://www.nowfoods.com/Sports/Products/M003879.htm

MSM Liposome Lotion

I have heard from quite a few TE sufferers that acupuncture can help considerably. However, not all acupuncturists are successful. Many will only provide slight relief. Countless of times I've heard ppl indicate that they got minimal to moderate benefit from acupuncture. Subsequently, when the sought out treatment from a highly recommended practitioner, TE disappeared after 2 or 3 treatments.
.

jimanuel12 · May 29, 2012

SystemicAnomaly said:
^ MSM can penetrate if used with DMSO or, possibly, with Emu oil. Note that DMSO itself converts to MSM in the body/tissue. Some products use liposome action for penetration. Here are a couple that might help:

http://www.nowfoods.com/Sports/Products/M003879.htm

MSM Liposome Lotion

I have heard from quite a few TE sufferers that acupuncture can help considerably. However, not all acupuncturists are successful. Many will only provide slight relief. Countless of times I've heard ppl indicate that they got minimal to moderate benefit from acupuncture. Subsequently, when the sought out treatment from a highly recommended practitioner, TE disappeared after 2 or 3 treatments.
.

thanks for the info - if this does not help i am going to look at the MSM lotion too.
i am a skeptic when it comes to creams and lotions though.

Posture Guy · May 29, 2012

Tennis elbow is a bear.

I'm with those who are skeptical about a cream's ability to "heal tendons". I just don't know how the cream penetrates and physically gets to the tendon itself before the blood vessels carry it away.

I think getting a medical evaluation is a terrific starting place. rule out any damage that requires medical intervention. if you're cleared, then a lot of the advice above is sound. Make sure you're using a combo of an elbow-friendly racquet and string setup at the appropriate tension, get your form checked by a reputable teaching pro, and finding a recommended physical therapist in your area to give you strengthening and stretching exercises is a very good idea, too.

If after doing those things you are still in pain, then at that point, in my clinical experience, the problem is more the position of the shoulder and elbow. Nearly every time i see someone with a persistent case of tennis elbow, i see three things:

1. a mid (thoracic) back that is overly rounded forward in flexion

2. a shoulder complex that is hinged forward

3. internal humerus rotation.

Here's a quick check you can do. Just stand normally and have someone take a picture of you from in front of you, and from behind you. Now, look at your hand position. if the three things i mention above are in a reasonably good position, your hands should be at your side hanging pretty much straight down from your shoulders, and your palms should be facing your side. from a back view you should not be able to see your palms, and from a front view you shouldn't be able to see the knuckles of your hands. If you can, you've got a posture problem that is absolutely causing your elbow to experience more friction under load than it would be getting were the shoulder in a more sound position.

Also, when you take the shots do so without a shirt on (or if a woman, wear a sports bra). now in the front view, look at the position of your clavicles (collar bones). are they symmetrical, or is one higher than the other? in the back view look at your shoulder blades. are they symmetrical, or are they in different positions. does one look further away from the center of your spine than the other? is one elevated and the other depressed? they should be in the same, neutral position.

It's definitely an issue with a variety of causes in different individuals. 3 people can have it for 3 very different reasons.

t135 · May 29, 2012

jimanuel12 said:
thanks, it seems like i have tried everything i can think of. so far, this is what i have tried:

2 cortizone shots
deep massages for weeks and weeks
electric therapy
chicropator
all kinds of creams
flex bar exercises
hand exercises
no tennis for 7 months
arm bands

still not 100% -maybe never

Wow, that's it right there. Non of that made it stop? Or did it stop and return from tennis??

jimanuel12 · May 30, 2012

Posture Guy said:
Tennis elbow is a bear.

I'm with those who are skeptical about a cream's ability to "heal tendons". I just don't know how the cream penetrates and physically gets to the tendon itself before the blood vessels carry it away.

I think getting a medical evaluation is a terrific starting place. rule out any damage that requires medical intervention. if you're cleared, then a lot of the advice above is sound. Make sure you're using a combo of an elbow-friendly racquet and string setup at the appropriate tension, get your form checked by a reputable teaching pro, and finding a recommended physical therapist in your area to give you strengthening and stretching exercises is a very good idea, too.

If after doing those things you are still in pain, then at that point, in my clinical experience, the problem is more the position of the shoulder and elbow. Nearly every time i see someone with a persistent case of tennis elbow, i see three things:

1. a mid (thoracic) back that is overly rounded forward in flexion

2. a shoulder complex that is hinged forward

3. internal humerus rotation.

Here's a quick check you can do. Just stand normally and have someone take a picture of you from in front of you, and from behind you. Now, look at your hand position. if the three things i mention above are in a reasonably good position, your hands should be at your side hanging pretty much straight down from your shoulders, and your palms should be facing your side. from a back view you should not be able to see your palms, and from a front view you shouldn't be able to see the knuckles of your hands. If you can, you've got a posture problem that is absolutely causing your elbow to experience more friction under load than it would be getting were the shoulder in a more sound position.

Also, when you take the shots do so without a shirt on (or if a woman, wear a sports bra). now in the front view, look at the position of your clavicles (collar bones). are they symmetrical, or is one higher than the other? in the back view look at your shoulder blades. are they symmetrical, or are they in different positions. does one look further away from the center of your spine than the other? is one elevated and the other depressed? they should be in the same, neutral position.

It's definitely an issue with a variety of causes in different individuals. 3 people can have it for 3 very different reasons.

good point, i am also taking exercises to strengthen the shoulders also.

jimanuel12 · May 30, 2012

t135 said:
Wow, that's it right there. Non of that made it stop? Or did it stop and return from tennis??

it finally got better where i could play with an arm band, but this spring it came back and now no tennis until it is better.

i am still taking the AMYST treatments, a little better so far, but we shall see.

i would not wish TE on my worst enemy.

mikeler · May 30, 2012

Trigger point therapy. Get the book!

Posture Guy · May 30, 2012

jimanuel12 said:
good point, i am also taking exercises to strengthen the shoulders also.

Use care here. As I've said on other threads, strengthening a properly positioned joint is a very constructive thing. Strengthening a mispositioned joint can actually increase injury risk. I'm a fan of strength training, but some of it does more harm than good.

And as mikeler said, working out trigger points is a very good thing.

jimanuel12 · May 30, 2012

mikeler said:
Trigger point therapy. Get the book!

i am going to have to get this book - i have heard it does wonders.
i have your posts on here many time about TE. has the book cured your TE?:?::?:

Posture Guy · May 30, 2012

Mikeler, which book do you recommend re tp therapy? There are a number of ones. After my car wreck years ago I actually got a doctor to loan me one of the authoritative references on it, the one from Janet Travell. This was not her book for laymen, and man, talk about dry. But I learned a lot.

I'm also a fan of the products from tptherapy.com. I use a number of their products.

mikeler · May 30, 2012

jimanuel12 said:
i am going to have to get this book - i have heard it does wonders.
i have your posts on here many time about TE. has the book cured your TE?:?::?:

Yes, in just over a week the pain around my joint is gone. Still have a little pain left in the forearm.

HiRO · May 30, 2012

I am currently reading the book, but am finding myself having trouble indicating proper trigger points...well any trigger points actually heh.

Posture Guy · May 30, 2012

Again, which book?

HiRO · May 30, 2012

^^^To make myself more clear. The book does a good job of showing you where the trigger points are and how to find them. I just haven't been able to figure out which ones are causing me my pain.

HiRO · May 30, 2012

Posture Guy said:
Again, which book?

the trigger point therapy workbook

Wuppy · May 30, 2012

What the **** is a trigger point

mikeler · May 31, 2012

What happened with my TE was that there is a muscle in the shoulder that was all knotted up. After about a week of self massage, the knot and the TE were gone. Since I don't have the book (yet), I'm guessing that this knot in my shoulder was pulling extra tension on the elbow tendon in turn cause the pain.

Posture Guy · May 31, 2012

HiRO....do you have a link? There are a LOT of books on trigger points out there.

HiRO · May 31, 2012

Posture Guy said:
HiRO....do you have a link? There are a LOT of books on trigger points out there.

http://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point...3759/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338481926&sr=8-1

hope that helps.

jimanuel12 · May 31, 2012

SystemicAnomaly said:
^ MSM can penetrate if used with DMSO or, possibly, with Emu oil. Note that DMSO itself converts to MSM in the body/tissue. Some products use liposome action for penetration. Here are a couple that might help:

http://www.nowfoods.com/Sports/Products/M003879.htm

MSM Liposome Lotion

I have heard from quite a few TE sufferers that acupuncture can help considerably. However, not all acupuncturists are successful. Many will only provide slight relief. Countless of times I've heard ppl indicate that they got minimal to moderate benefit from acupuncture. Subsequently, when the sought out treatment from a highly recommended practitioner, TE disappeared after 2 or 3 treatments.
.

well, today i tried the DSMO for the first time, i am a skeptic but a friend of mine recommended it and so - i took the plunge and put a small amount on my TE this morning, it has been about 4 hours since - and i cannot believe how much better my elbow feels. the pain is about 40%-60% better already.
will wait and try it some more and see if there are any benefits.
so far - so good.

mikeler · May 31, 2012

HiRO said:
http://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point...3759/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338481926&sr=8-1

hope that helps.

I just bought this. With all the injuries I've had the last 4 years, I'm sure the book will come in handy in the future too.

SystemicAnomaly · May 31, 2012

jimanuel12 said:
well, today i tried the DSMO for the first time, i am a skeptic but a friend of mine recommended it and so - i took the plunge and put a small amount on my TE this morning, it has been about 4 hours since - and i cannot believe how much better my elbow feels. the pain is about 40%-60% better already.
will wait and try it some more and see if there are any benefits.
so far - so good.

Glad to hear it. Make sure that the DMSO that you are using is very pure. Do not use the stuff found in hardware stores.

jimanuel12 · Jun 1, 2012

SystemicAnomaly said:
Glad to hear it. Make sure that the DMSO that you are using is very pure. Do not use the stuff found in hardware stores.

used it twice yesterday and it does seem to help. i am going to continue the ASYTM and see what happens.

Posture Guy · Jun 1, 2012

I keep this product around and use it from time to time on aches and pains, seems effective. It's got DMSO and then a number of other ingredients like arnica oil, ginger root, MSM, and more. It's from Baseline Nutritionals, and their stuff is always pretty well crafted.

Essential Relief

Can't speak to its efficacy for tennis elbow, haven't had TE for many years, but it's been helpful for other stuff.

Posture Guy · Jun 1, 2012

One note on DMSO, you want to make sure that you wash your hands before and after applying it, and that where you're applying it is clean. The thing about DMSO is it is great at helping substances penetrate deep into tissue. That's great if you're trying to get something like arnica oil deep into your tissue. But imagine you just mucked around with your lawn mower and you have engine oil on you. You do NOT want that driving deep into tissue. There have been a number of incidents where people got really hurt using DMSO not because of DMSO per se, but because the DMSO helped them deeply absorb a very toxic chemical.

Use this stuff with great caution.

Posture Guy · Jun 1, 2012

And thanks for the book recommendation, looks great! I'm putting it into the queue, for sure.

HiRO · Jun 1, 2012

Good advice on the DMSO and safety. Thanks Posture Guy.

mikeler · Jun 1, 2012

Looks like the book will be here Monday. I've read some of the introduction online and it seems pretty impressive. It got great reviews on Amazon.

HiRO · Jun 1, 2012

mikeler said:
Looks like the book will be here Monday. I've read some of the introduction online and it seems pretty impressive. It got great reviews on Amazon.

Nice! Keep us up to date on how it works out for you and your recovery.

jimanuel12 · Jun 4, 2012

jimanuel12 said:
used it twice yesterday and it does seem to help. i am going to continue the ASYTM and see what happens.

I have used it a couple more times with good results, i am a skeptic but so far, it seems to help - would say the elbow is 40% better already.
will keep you all posted.

jimanuel12 · Jun 8, 2012

jimanuel12 said:
I have used it a couple more times with good results, i am a skeptic but so far, it seems to help - would say the elbow is 40% better already.
will keep you all posted.

have been going for ASYTM treatments and so far it seems to help. at the same time the physical therapist is using the trigger point therapy - with a combination of both, maybe just maybe the TE will be gone forever. let's hope.
will keep you all informed.

mikeler · Jun 8, 2012

HiRO said:
Nice! Keep us up to date on how it works out for you and your recovery.

Well, I found the 2nd trigger point in my shoulder. After 1 night of massage, my forearm was much better. I woke up the next morning and the trigger point was extremely sore. Been about 4 days now and the trigger point knot seems to be gone. I have just the slightest pain in my forearm if I turn my hand towards the sky. It rained all week here, so I'm sure the rest helped as well. All in all, I'm very impressed with trigger therapy.

I am begining to think my tennis elbow will never heal completely

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