Current Big XII player playing 4.5?!?!?

Perry the Platypus · May 17, 2010

So, one of the teams in my 4.5 league just signed up a computer rated 4.5 player. The problem is that he currently plays top six at a division one Big XII school. He self rated just after high school as 4.5 (must have neglected his sectional ranking somehow - he was top 10 in the 18's). So technically he now has a computer rating of 4.5.

Two teams in our league have protested him, but he played a line of doubles this weekend an lost in a third set tb.

What the heck?!?!

J_R_B · May 17, 2010

Perry the Platypus said:
So, one of the teams in my 4.5 league just signed up a computer rated 4.5 player. The problem is that he currently plays top six at a division one Big XII school. He self rated just after high school as 4.5 (must have neglected his sectional ranking somehow - he was top 10 in the 18's). So technically he now has a computer rating of 4.5.

Two teams in our league have protested him, but he played a line of doubles this weekend an lost in a third set tb.

What the heck?!?!

A lot of this does not compute. How is a D1 varsity player losing 4.5 matches? Why is said player even bothering with USTA rec tennis? If this is the same person, the protests should be upheld. There's NO WAY a current D1 varsity player at a major conference school should be anywhere near a 4.5 match.

andfor · May 17, 2010

J_R_B said:
A lot of this does not compute. How is a D1 varsity player losing 4.5 matches? Why is said player even bothering with USTA rec tennis? If this is the same person, the protests should be upheld. There's NO WAY a current D1 varsity player at a major conference school should be anywhere near a 4.5 match.

The loss occured in doubles so its possible he could lose if his partner was weak and their opponents very strong etc. Also possible he took a dive. Who knows without being there and more details (objective ones).

The USTA has lowered the NTRP age limit from 19 to 18 this year, 2010. That allows for a strong junior to self-rate before signing and playing with a D1 school.

My question is how did he make it through the self-rate questionaire without setting off red flags? Being he was top 10 in his section that should kick him to 5.0. He likeley also carried a strong national ranking too. The basis of an appeal should be to ask the section to produce the questionaire to see if it was answered honestly. If it was so be it. If not he should be DQ'd. I'll bet the section will not let the self-rate questionaire be viewed............typical.

Perry the Platypus · May 17, 2010

My guess, and this is just a guess is that someone at the club he plays for did his self rate questionnaire for him and left out some relevant information. Kid probably doesn't even know.

If that suspicion is true he should never have been rated 4.5....

andfor · May 17, 2010

Perry the Platypus said:
My guess, and this is just a guess is that someone at the club he plays for did his self rate questionnaire for him and left out some relevant information. Kid probably doesn't even know.

If that suspicion is true he should never have been rated 4.5....

Been there where you are and I bet you're right. What was the sections response of the protest? Based on experience sometimes the section will slow roll their decision unless they know widespread awareness of the situation exists. Send a email to the director of NTRP for your section outlining your concerns and back it up with facts about the player in questions background. Provide junior sectional and national rankings and find out if he played any Big12 matches this year and provide those results. You can find college results on www.collegetennisonline.com. Also ask your section to produce the questionnaire if they are not going to do anything about it.

This may sound like a pain but the only way to keep NTRP play fair is to self-police it. The USTA will not proactively clean this situation up.

JoelDali · May 17, 2010

Someone get Arlen on the horn, he should know about this. Its despicable and disengenuous to 4.5 tennis.

Perry the Platypus · May 17, 2010

His college record is:
Fr. 2-3

final 2007 sectional ranking of 16

He's not the second coming of Devin Britton, but having an active d1 player on a 4.5 team seems to be a bit much.

I am certain that the local league coordinator will handle the situation.

jigar · May 17, 2010

I would rather play him over regular 4.5 players to get better match. I know it doesn't make sense losing a league match but I will try to play him beyond just league matches.

andfor · May 17, 2010

jigar said:
I would rather play him over regular 4.5 players to get better match. I know it doesn't make sense losing a league match but I will try to play him beyond just league matches.

That's very noble. I too like playing 6.0 type players to test my game. Sure it would be great for a 4.5 to play him but the 4.5 will lose and the match should take place in an open tournament. Of course the losing 4.5 can then say they lost to a current D1 player and it does not matter.

Seriously the guy should be playing the college summer circuit, open level tournaments or open team tennis.

Based on the player in question past top 20 junior sectional ranking he should be a 6.0 minimum. http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/sitecore_usta/USTA/Document Assets/2008/02/14/doc_13_7372.pdf

Grievance Forms
http://www.usta.com/USTA/Global/Active/Custom Pages/Leagues/Grievance_Forms.aspx

atatu · May 17, 2010

Perry the Platypus said:
His college record is:
Fr. 2-3

final 2007 sectional ranking of 16

He's not the second coming of Devin Britton, but having an active d1 player on a 4.5 team seems to be a bit much.

I am certain that the local league coordinator will handle the situation.

Oh come on, why not just tell us his name ? Or what school he plays for...it's not like you are going to get sued....

Motor Kings · May 18, 2010

A little cyber sleuthing suggests that this guy played one doubles match for the Cornhuskers this year - the only guy from Tulsa on NU's roster. So, he's not exactly Dimitar Kutrovsky, Austin Krajicek, or Denes Lucaks. It seems like he's not too out of place in your 4.5 league - losing a line 3 doubles match.

andfor · May 19, 2010

Motor Kings said:
A little cyber sleuthing suggests that this guy played one doubles match for the Cornhuskers this year - the only guy from Tulsa on NU's roster. So, he's not exactly Dimitar Kutrovsky, Austin Krajicek, or Denes Lucaks. It seems like he's not too out of place in your 4.5 league - losing a line 3 doubles match.

Perry? Your up....is this the guy or not? 2-3 is a big difference from 0-1.

beernutz · May 19, 2010

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/CheckMemberName.asp?Last=freeman&First=drew&Type=W

http://www.huskers.com/SportSelect.dbml?spid=37&spsid=140&db_oem_id=100

Perry the Platypus · May 19, 2010

Hey the site I saw him at had him at 2-3 for his career. I believe he played one match this spring. As I mentioned before, I never said he was Devin Britton. I just maintain that he is not a 4.5.

My overall point still stands though......does a current DI player who had a top 20 sectional boys 18 ranking belong in 4.5? If so, why have the ratings matrix?

Don't get me wrong, if I play him I will try to win, but it seems wrong for that kind of player to be playing...........

His day -
practice w/DI players, class, more practice with DI players.

My day -
Work, run soccer practice for kids. Maybe get 2 sets in plus a usta match each week.

As it is, the section is holding firm to the fact that he entered the season with a "c" rating so we cannot protest.

c'est la vie - i bet most of you would have balked at this if it were happening in your league.

anantak2k · May 19, 2010

Perry the Platypus said:
His day -
practice w/DI players, class, more practice with DI players.

My day -
Work, run soccer practice for kids. Maybe get 2 sets in plus a usta match each week.
c'est la vie - i bet most of you would have balked at this if it were happening in your league.

I am sure all he does is practice tennis with other D1 kids all day. I am sure he doesn't need to go to classes or study or anything like that.

I am just saying you know.

HitItHarder · May 19, 2010

Perry the Platypus said:
Hey the site I saw him at had him at 2-3 for his career. I believe he played one match this spring. As I mentioned before, I never said he was Devin Britton. I just maintain that he is not a 4.5.

My overall point still stands though......does a current DI player who had a top 20 sectional boys 18 ranking belong in 4.5? If so, why have the ratings matrix?

Don't get me wrong, if I play him I will try to win, but it seems wrong for that kind of player to be playing...........

His day -
practice w/DI players, class, more practice with DI players.

My day -
Work, run soccer practice for kids. Maybe get 2 sets in plus a usta match each week.

As it is, the section is holding firm to the fact that he entered the season with a "c" rating so we cannot protest.

c'est la vie - i bet most of you would have balked at this if it were happening in your league.

We got a similar response last year when a Div.II player was playing as a 3.0. Since he initially rated as a 2.5 the year before and was a Computer rated 3.0 when anyone noticed, we were told nothing could be done.

damazing · May 19, 2010

It looked like the losses he had in singles the only other year he played USTA to players that are now at the 5.0 level.

Also, his entire team is on the skinny/underweight side except for one guy at 6-3 210lbs.

Perry the Platypus · May 19, 2010

@anantak2k - I said he went to class (just sayin'...you know...

I know he has other stuff to do, but I also knew kids in college that played, and they practiced....ALOT.

@damazing - I have good reason to doubt those 5.0 matches ever took place. That particular 5.0 league was thrown together last minute so a team could qualify for districts. Nobody around here thinks the matches happened. Both teams were at one club and the prosets ere supposedly played over 4 days and all scores were entered at the same time.

Though I must be coming across as a whiner it is not my intent. I just think this is a situation where there is an obvious flaw, but nothing is being done. For those of you checking him out in tennis link look at his tourney results from 2008.

As I said earlier:
1) I doubt the kid even knows enough about USTA league to think this is odd
2) If I have to play him, I will play him as hard as I can and shake his hand afterward to tell him good match no matter the outcome.

I just personally believe he should be playing at least 5.0 if not 5.5 tennis.

justinmadison · May 19, 2010

If it is Drew Freeman he is not a NTRP adult 4.5. Not even close. On tennisrecruiting.net is a three star recent graduate, class of 2008. He has wins over four star seniors.

My son is a three star eighth grader. Skill wise he is a middle of the rode NTRP 4.5. In four years if he keeps a three star rating no 4.5 will be able to win a game off of him. The three star seniors in our town are untouchable by a 4.5

Perry the Platypus · Aug 13, 2010

FWIIW - he just finished going 5-0 in singles at sectionals without dropping a set. The computers will take care of his rating for next season, but it just seems to me that a little common sense could have been applied in this case.....

Current DI players at BCS schools (no matter where on the team they play) do not belong in 4.5 leagues.

goober · Aug 13, 2010

He is a true sandbagger. During the regular season he wins only one match including losing one match 6-1, 6-2. Then in sectionals he shows up and goes undefeated in 5 straight matches. I can't figure out why a D1 player would even bother with such a ruse, but it is pretty embarrassing for him and his team.

atatu · Aug 13, 2010

Perry the Platypus said:
FWIIW - he just finished going 5-0 in singles at sectionals without dropping a set. The computers will take care of his rating for next season, but it just seems to me that a little common sense could have been applied in this case.....

Current DI players at BCS schools (no matter where on the team they play) do not belong in 4.5 leagues.

It's a joke really, the USTA could care less though.

RogerRacket111 · Aug 13, 2010

I need to write an iphone App to takes pictures of posers and self-rate cheats and sends it out to USTA with time and geo-tag information to confirm. What do you guys think ?

atatu · Aug 13, 2010

I think the USTA doesn't care, so the App would be in vain.

Perry the Platypus · Aug 13, 2010

In fairness to the kid that 1 & 2 loss was at 5.0, but it was obvious he didn't try. He played the same 5.0 guy later and lost a buster, but yes he did seem to rediscover his game at sectionals...

polski · Aug 13, 2010

justinmadison said:
If it is Drew Freeman he is not a NTRP adult 4.5. Not even close. On tennisrecruiting.net is a three star recent graduate, class of 2008. He has wins over four star seniors.

My son is a three star eighth grader. Skill wise he is a middle of the rode NTRP 4.5. In four years if he keeps a three star rating no 4.5 will be able to win a game off of him. The three star seniors in our town are untouchable by a 4.5

This wouldn't be the case around me in South Carolina. We have some 3-star boys (2 rising seniors that come to mind) that can get pushed by solid, 30-40 year old 4.5's at our club. I don't know if the men win matches, but they don't get shut out either.

If your kid is pushing around 4.5's as an 8th grader, I'd be willing to bet he will get another star next to his name come October. I hope so & good luck to him!

goober · Aug 13, 2010

Perry the Platypus said:
In fairness to the kid that 1 & 2 loss was at 5.0, but it was obvious he didn't try. He played the same 5.0 guy later and lost a buster, but yes he did seem to rediscover his game at sectionals...

LOL he didn't "rediscover" his game. His game was always there. He just decided to actually try when it mattered and throw games in the season in order not to get DQ'ed. Any other interpretations of his results based on his background is wishful thinking.

J_R_B · Aug 13, 2010

polski said:
This wouldn't be the case around me in South Carolina. We have some 3-star boys (2 rising seniors that come to mind) that can get pushed by solid, 30-40 year old 4.5's at our club. I don't know if the men win matches, but they don't get shut out either.

If your kid is pushing around 4.5's as an 8th grader, I'd be willing to bet he will get another star next to his name come October. I hope so & good luck to him!

I am (or was, I lost 3 rounds ago...) playing in a tournament in NJ right now. The tournament is at the semifinals right now. There is a 3-star 8th grader that is seeded #3 in the B draw that just ripped through three solid local 4.5 league players 6-0 6-2, 6-1 6-3, and 6-2 6-3. A 3-star freshman qualified for the open draw by beating a local 5.0 6-0 6-2 and one of the top area 4.5s 6-3 6-2 before falling to a 5.0 level open torunament player in the main draw.

A 2 star junior won our county tournament this year beating the 5.0 rated defending champ 6-1 6-3 in the quarters and a 5.5 who's won the tournament 6 times 7-5 6-3 in the finals.

A 3 star senior (around here at least) is at least a 5.0 rated player and probably hgher.

JLyon · Aug 13, 2010

He should be DQ'ed immediately if MV has any integrity left. I could not even get a former Walk-on at SEC school down to 5.0, Southern placed him at 6.0 and allowed appeal to 5.5.
Actually this kid is no different than a player on the SW 4.5 Team going to Nationals who played at a D1 school in 2003 or so and also sits on a USTA Committee, yet somehow self-rated 4.5. Guess he just missed some questions.

Z-Man · Aug 13, 2010

At least he's not playing 4.0. One of the Alabama teams had a former college player playing singles. He was destroying everybody at state and sectionals. (He even beat our singles player who we thought was pretty good.) I asked the captain if he was worried about the guy getting DQ'd. He said he wasn't worried because the guy was bulletproof--he had a computer rating. Their whole team was like that. They had been carefully recruited from around the state and they all had managed their ratings for this run at nationals. There was another thead about this, but this same guy beat another guy in the state finals, and the other guy (who lost) got DQ'd.

Welcome to the USTA, where former college players get a free pass and the weekend warriors get DQ'd. That said, 5.0 is mostly just a concept, not a real level. Unless you're in an urban area with lots of 5.0 players, League tennis really ends at 4.5. I'd be fine if they'd just change 4.5 to open. I think the USTA did it wrong when they bumped massive numbers of people up. They still didn't address the issue at the top, and it all rolls downhill. To really fix it, they need to:

1) Bump enough 4.5s to 5.0 so that 5.0 becomes viable. That would get the 4.5s out of 4.0 and so on, opening up more space in all of the levels.

or

2) Let 4.5 be what it already is--open tennis. That would push everyone down and make 3.0 much more viable. If they did that, you might even see some men's 2.5 teams. Right now, there is no place for a true beginner.

J_R_B · Aug 13, 2010

Z-Man said:
At least he's not playing 4.0. One of the Alabama teams had a former college player playing singles. He was destroying everybody at state and sectionals. (He even beat our singles player who we thought was pretty good.) I asked the captain if he was worried about the guy getting DQ'd. He said he wasn't worried because the guy was bulletproof--he had a computer rating. Their whole team was like that. They had been carefully recruited from around the state and they all had managed their ratings for this run at nationals. There was another thead about this, but this same guy beat another guy in the state finals, and the other guy (who lost) got DQ'd.

Welcome to the USTA, where former college players get a free pass and the weekend warriors get DQ'd. That said, 5.0 is mostly just a concept, not a real level. Unless you're in an urban area with lots of 5.0 players, League tennis really ends at 4.5. I'd be fine if they'd just change 4.5 to open. I think the USTA did it wrong when they bumped massive numbers of people up. They still didn't address the issue at the top, and it all rolls downhill. To really fix it, they need to:

1) Bump enough 4.5s to 5.0 so that 5.0 becomes viable. That would get the 4.5s out of 4.0 and so on, opening up more space in all of the levels.

or

2) Let 4.5 be what it already is--open tennis. That would push everyone down and make 3.0 much more viable. If they did that, you might even see some men's 2.5 teams. Right now, there is no place for a true beginner.

(1) is exactly what happened here. For this first time I can remember, there were actual competitive 5.0 leagues around here and the true ringers at 4.5 had a league to play in.

As for the 4.0 team, was it a former D1 player or just a college player? There are plenty of former run-of-the-mill college players from D3 that are legit 4.0s (although under 35 they will be forced to 4.5 if they answer the questionnaire correctly). Recent or current D1, especially from a major conference like Big 12, there is ZERO chance that they are 4.5 and it's probably unlikely they are even 5.0 really.

J_R_B · Aug 13, 2010

JLyon said:
He should be DQ'ed immediately if MV has any integrity left. I could not even get a former Walk-on at SEC school down to 5.0, Southern placed him at 6.0 and allowed appeal to 5.5.
Actually this kid is no different than a player on the SW 4.5 Team going to Nationals who played at a D1 school in 2003 or so and also sits on a USTA Committee, yet somehow self-rated 4.5. Guess he just missed some questions.

The team lost in sectional semifinals, so it's irrelevant now.

Z-Man · Aug 13, 2010

J_R_B said:
(1) is exactly what happened here. For this first time I can remember, there were actual competitive 5.0 leagues around here and the true ringers at 4.5 had a league to play in.

As for the 4.0 team, was it a former D1 player or just a college player? There are plenty of former run-of-the-mill college players from D3 that are legit 4.0s (although under 35 they will be forced to 4.5 if they answer the questionnaire correctly). Recent or current D1, especially from a major conference like Big 12, there is ZERO chance that they are 4.5 and it's probably unlikely they are even 5.0 really.

I don't know for sure, but the word going around town at sectionals was that he played D1 at some point and was rated 5.5 or something like that and worked his way down the ratings. I see on his record that he won a large tournament at 4.5 this year, winning the finals 6-1 6-1. The guy clearly played some serious college tennis and had no business playing at 4.0.

But wait, it gets better. He finally got beaten at sectionals in a tiebreaker. The guy who beat him coaches at a small D1 school and was smart to not play singles until the finals of his state tournament. Then he played every match at sectionals, running the table. Everyone on his team formerly played tennis at that same college. But they weren't deep enough in the doubles, and they didn't win sectionals. So it goes. Just when you think you've got the best team full of people in their last year at their current rating, you run into somebody who is willing to go way farther than you ever imagined.

polski · Aug 14, 2010

J_R_B said:
I am (or was, I lost 3 rounds ago...) playing in a tournament in NJ right now. The tournament is at the semifinals right now. There is a 3-star 8th grader that is seeded #3 in the B draw that just ripped through three solid local 4.5 league players 6-0 6-2, 6-1 6-3, and 6-2 6-3. A 3-star freshman qualified for the open draw by beating a local 5.0 6-0 6-2 and one of the top area 4.5s 6-3 6-2 before falling to a 5.0 level open torunament player in the main draw.

A 2 star junior won our county tournament this year beating the 5.0 rated defending champ 6-1 6-3 in the quarters and a 5.5 who's won the tournament 6 times 7-5 6-3 in the finals.

A 3 star senior (around here at least) is at least a 5.0 rated player and probably hgher.

I have a feeling that 3-star's in NJ are probably similar in ability to 3-star's in SC. However, based on the facts that you provided combined with the relative lack of 5.0's that we have in SC, I think our NTRP's are a "wider spread" than what you have at the 4.5 level. There are several 4.5's that I play with and against that have mid-major or D2 tennis backgrounds...I'm sure that in their youth they were 2 or 3-star caliber players.

But again, I don't think any of these 4.5's are beating the highly ranked juniors. They probably are taking games (maybe a set here or there) off them & providing good practice competition.

tlross1 · Aug 17, 2010

4.5 league

I'm a captain of a 4.5 team that went 23-2 and we lost to another 4.5 team locally that is now going on to Nationals. Why? Because they found 3 or 4 guys that are really 5.0 but bumped DOWN because of their mixed ratings. It's not fair, but it's life. The system is getting better now, but older players are hard to catch if they rated at 4.5 long ago. Just go find yourself a good ex college player and you'll be fine.

There are so many ways around the system, but play fair and find good guys and you'll win.

PS- "top ranked" kids lose all the time to guys like us, who know what we're doing and have experience on court, so spare me the "my kid is a stud". The studs lose to ex college players with less talent.

JoelDali · Aug 18, 2010

tlross1 said:
Just go find yourself a good ex college player and you'll be fine.

The legendary Al Parker is joining my team next year.

He agreed because our captain is paying him $125,000.

Current Big XII player playing 4.5?!?!?

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