Cop out. You claimed that something that is within the rules and doesn't involve hurting your opponent is sporting. I pointed out a case where this is clearly the opposite, with several parallels.The fact that you think some cricket incident has any relevance whatsoever is further evidence that you are grasping at straws to find a coherent argument.
They forebore to comment on the sportsmanship of the act. That alone speaks volumes.I find it interesting that the announcers had a clear opportunity to point out what an unsportsmanlike tactic Hingis had used (in your opinion) but failed to make any mention of it.
That doesn't have anything to do with what we're actually talking about.One question for you Caesar. I have a good friend and occasional tennis opponent who had shoulder surgery recently and now won't be able to serve with an overhand motion.
I guess he will have to quit playing tennis?
You are doing all the whining missy and if you'll check the tape I think you'll see that the vast majority of posters in this thread agree with me, not you. But don't let the fact that posters to a tennis forum for tennis players don't agree with you change your little made up mind. You keep on believing that because a bunch of non-tennis-playing French people once idiotically booed Hingis that you are on the moral high ground.Cop out. You claimed that something that is within the rules and doesn't involve hurting your opponent is sporting. I pointed out a case where this is clearly the opposite, with several parallels.
At the end of the day I don't particularly care whether you think it's a sporting act or not. You're welcome to your opinion. That's the beauty of sportsmanship. It's not clear cut and everyone's entitled to their own perspective.
Just stop whining like a little girl because a lot of other people disagree with you and think it's scummy behaviour. You want to act in a way that is morally grey then you have to accept the flak that comes with that.
They forebore to comment on the sportsmanship of the act. That alone speaks volumes.
Speaking of cop outs...That doesn't have anything to do with what we're actually talking about.
So why post in this thread at all? The OP asked a question. The answer is yes, a lot of people consider it bush and the people who do it to be unsporting scum. Topic closed.You are doing all the whining missy and if you'll check the tape I think you'll see that the vast majority of posters in this thread agree with me, not you. But don't let the fact that posters to a tennis forum for tennis players don't agree with you change your little made up mind. You keep on believing that because a bunch of non-tennis-playing French people once idiotically booed Hingis that you are on the moral high ground.
I guess we do agree with the fact that I could not give two turds what you think, which is reinforced every time you rant again.
No, it just demonstrates you've completely missed the point.Speaking of cop outs...
So why post in this thread at all? The OP asked a question. The answer is yes, a lot of people consider it bush and the people who do it to be unsporting scum. Topic closed.
Then, for some bewildering reason, people like you come in with "waaaaah it's not fair, you can't call it bush, it's a legitimate tactic". You claim not to care what others think, yet you post in a thread purely to complain about how wrong it is that they think that way. Quite amusing really.
Nobody is saying you don't have a right to think it's a legitimate tactic. Good for you, sonny - I honestly mean that. Everyone's entitled to your opinion. But no matter how much you stamp your feet the reality is that plenty of people disagree, it's no less legitimate a view, and that view is their prerogative.
Now run along, lad.
No, it just demonstrates you've completely missed the point.
No you didn't. You admitted in your first post you merely came in to squeal about how unfair it is that anyone could consider a legal shot 'bush'.The question was asked idiot. I answered it. You attempted to answer it but your prattle never really got up to the level of rational thought, but here's a cookie and thanks for playing.
Where did I complain? I totally agree with your right to play like that. By all means, be my guest. As I have said from the outset, it does not bother me in the slightest.When momma's boys who wet their pants when someone hits a shot that they aren't ready for and cry like *****es that 'it's unfair' start determining what is or isn't kosher I'll quit the game. Luckily for me, you are in a tiny minority.
No, I'm saying that most people implicitly understand the spirit of the game is that a sporting serve gives the opponent a fair opportunity to make a play on the ball.
It's apparent that since you are too mentally or physically challenged (likely both) to defend against a perfectly legal shot you feel the need to label it and any who use it as unsportsmanlike. That clearly reveals nothing good about your character. If you can't adjust when you see someone's service motion change then perhaps tennis isn't the game for you. I know I've hit several winning returns against underhanded serves so it really isn't the guaranteed point you seem to think it is. But please continue to whine about the unfairness of it all in your little fantasy world.No you didn't. You admitted in your first post you merely came in to squeal about how unfair it is that anyone could consider a legal shot 'bush'.
That you now pretend that you don't care what other people think is nothing short of hilarious.
Where did I complain? I totally agree with your right to play like that. By all means, be my guest. As I have said from the outset, it does not bother me in the slightest.
In fact, if anything, I appreciate it because it's enlightening. As a great man once said, sport is a great revealer of character. Circumstances like these and the decisions people make in response to them are the ones that separate the true sportsmen and gentlemen from shabby little grifters such as yourself.
The style of serve gives a fair opportunity. Its success or failure rests on the skill of the execution.
A drop serve does not have to be executed at all skillfully to beat an opponent who is well behind the baseline. Choosing to employ it at all guarantees an almost certain win. That is why many people regard it as so distasteful and cheap.
lol. Federer has never returned an underarm serve in his career, despite facing several - inevitably from vastly inferior players like Llodra. Is he 'mentally and physically challenged'?It's apparent that since you are too mentally or physically challenged (likely both) to defend against a perfectly legal shot you feel the need to label it and any who use it as unsportsmanlike. That clearly reveals nothing good about your character. If you can't adjust when you see someone's service motion change then perhaps tennis isn't the game for you. I know I've hit several winning returns against underhanded serves so it really isn't the guaranteed point you seem to think it is. But please continue to whine about the unfairness of it all in your little fantasy world.
The style of serve gives a fair opportunity. Its success or failure rests on the skill of the execution.
A drop serve does not have to be executed at all skillfully to beat an opponent who is well behind the baseline. Choosing to employ it at all guarantees an almost certain win. That is why many people regard it as so distasteful and cheap.
Caesar obviously knows more than Michael Chang.
By the way Caesar, what is your total monetary winnings from Tennis? Is it as high as Chang's?
lol. Federer has never returned an underarm serve in his career, despite facing several - inevitably from vastly inferior players like Llodra. Is he 'mentally and physically challenged'?
In fact, I would love to see the ace percentage on underarm serves on the ATP Tour - I'm guessing it's at something like 95%. They're incredibly cheap points for a shot that is so easy to execute. Yet they are still so rare. Why? Because they are considered so unsporting that players generally only resort to them when they are completely desperate.
If you are regularly crushing winners against drop serves then I would say that mostly indicates the poor level of your opposition.
The style of serve gives a fair opportunity. Its success or failure rests on the skill of the execution.
A drop serve does not have to be executed at all skillfully to beat an opponent who is well behind the baseline. Choosing to employ it at all guarantees an almost certain win. That is why many people regard it as so distasteful and cheap.
If you choose not to defend half the court I think the server should look for ways of taking advantage of that. Make the person move forward and take away the advantage they get by standing so far back.
lol. Federer has never returned an underarm serve in his career, despite facing several - inevitably from vastly inferior players like Llodra. Is he 'mentally and physically challenged'?
In fact, I would love to see the ace percentage on underarm serves on the ATP Tour - I'm guessing it's at something like 95%. They're incredibly cheap points for a shot that is so easy to execute. Yet they are still so rare. Why? Because they are considered so unsporting that players generally only resort to them when they are completely desperate.
If you are regularly crushing winners against drop serves then I would say that mostly indicates the poor level of your opposition.
From http://www.tsn.ca/tennis/story/?id=330324 which is a writeup of the Federer Llodra match.lol. Federer has never returned an underarm serve in his career, despite facing several - inevitably from vastly inferior players like Llodra. Is he 'mentally and physically challenged'?
In fact, I would love to see the ace percentage on underarm serves on the ATP Tour - I'm guessing it's at something like 95%. They're incredibly cheap points for a shot that is so easy to execute. Yet they are still so rare. Why? Because they are considered so unsporting that players generally only resort to them when they are completely desperate.
If you are regularly crushing winners against drop serves then I would say that mostly indicates the poor level of your opposition.
A drop serve does not have to be executed at all skillfully to beat an opponent who is well behind the baseline. Choosing to employ it at all guarantees an almost certain win. That is why many people regard it as so distasteful and cheap.
I think you are wrong in making that assertion. Maybe at very low levels or when playing against movement-challenged opponents a drop shot serve can be effective (i.e. a good percentage play). But otherwise, it's just a bad play, generally speaking. I think you underestimate how hard it is to execute against a decent opponent. Also, you are underestimating the 'opportunity cost' - meaning the effectiveness of the alternative.
You mentioned pro players, so let's examine that. If an opponent is well behind the baseline, it means the server has an effective first serve. Most pro's can get their first in at about 65%, and win at least 75% of first serve points. That means they have a 50% shot at winning the point on their first serve (without needing a second serve).
So to be an effective strategy, a drop-shot first serve would need to go in and win the point at least 50% of the time. And I don't think it does that.
In order to convince me otherwise, you'd have to find some data on how often a drop-shot serve has been attempted (including where it was a fault), versus how often it has gone in and then also won the point for the server.[/QUOTE]
Even if you had this data, it would not prove much because the probability of a drop serve working effectively might be conditional on how often it is attempted (and I can't believe this would not be the case). I'm guessing the chance of a drop serve working drops precipitously the more often it is used, as your opponent will anticipate it. In my opinion, it is safe to assume the frequency with which pro tennis players attempt this shot (near zero) is roughly optimum given how competitive the game is. In equilibrium, we should expect drop serves to have about the same effectiveness rate as other serves. The trouble is the sample size is so small, and they tend to be tried only when something weird is going on with the match, another confounding variable...
The highlights of the entire actual Federer Llodra match, which is one of the better youtube tennis videos in terms of quality I've seen, is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv36ygf2DGg The arabic announcing is kind of entertaining to listen to.
The serve is at 5:35 and they show it several times. First, nobody boos. Second, Fed clearly has a play on the ball and appears annoyed at himself for overhitting a return attempt. He certainly doesn't say anything to or even glare over at Llodra afterwards. Like I said before, when interviewed afterward, the arguably greatest player to ever play the game had no problem with the serve.
Data schmata.
If a pro were serving for the Wimbledon Championships and an angel appeared and told that pro that an underhand serve would win the point, I'll bet the pro still wouldn't do it.
The victory would be forever marred, the only thing people would remember or talk about would be that one serve, and every question in every press conference for the pro's entire career would be about underhand serves.
Which proves underhand serves are bush.
I can't tell if you are being serious or not given the smilie, however, if you actually watch the video you'll see Roger smiling broadly right after missing the shot on that serve.Fed's reaction to Llodra's underhanded serve
Data schmata.
If a pro were serving for the Wimbledon Championships and an angel appeared and told that pro that an underhand serve would win the point, I'll bet the pro still wouldn't do it.
The victory would be forever marred, the only thing people would remember or talk about would be that one serve, and every question in every press conference for the pro's entire career would be about underhand serves.
Which proves underhand serves are bush.
With big servers you have to stand well back to make the return.Well, then don't stand way behind the baseline
Find me an example where he has.Caesar, really, Federer has NEVER returned an "underarm" serve? Now you are just making stuff up.
That's because Federer has class. However, you will notice that he has never resorted to this tactic himself. Since it's so effective, if he has no problem with it, why doesn't he use it occassionally?Like I said before, when interviewed afterward, the arguably greatest player to ever play the game had no problem with the serve.
Really? I would beg to differ. I think you would find that the drop shot serve almost always scores an unreturnable. It's very rare to see it returned at the pro level.So to be an effective strategy, a drop-shot first serve would need to go in and win the point at least 50% of the time. And I don't think it does that.
Well no. He wasn't serving for the match and it wasn't a final.I would take that bet. Easy money - thanks Cindy!
The closest scenario to this (that actually took place) is Chang vs Lendl in the 4th round of the '89 French Open. Chang pulled off an underhand serve on a pivotal point. He went on to win that match, and ultimately the FO.
There is an excellent article from 1999 in SI archives that revisits this 10 years on. Read the whole thing in context:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/tennis/1999/french_open/news/1999/05/22/tenyears_changfrench/
"I was trying to break his concentration," Chang told Sports Illustrated after the 4-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-3, 6-3 drainer. "I would do anything to stay out there."
There was some controversy after this, but it's clear that Chang has no regrets and would do it again under the same circumstances.
Summary: Pro did it. Arguably this won him the FO. He has no regrets. I win the bet
I had someone comment after my match last night that some guys might get pissed off with some of my serves. Every now and then I would throw in a "junk" serve when my opponent had just made an error and right after they usually try to blast a "junk" serve and make an error. I did this maybe 6-7 times total the entire match. My junk serve is usually one that I hit "3/4 sidearm" softly and try to drop it in the left front corner of the box, just over the net. If hit correctly, the opponent returns it right back to me and I then have an open court for the next shot. Another "junk" serve I use is to just slice it in low and soft with a very compact swing. One more is where i just pop it in soft and flat and low and try to ellicit an error.
My opponent claimed I didn't need to use these serves since my normal serve was very good and that I didn't double fault the entire match (true) so that I didn't need to do these tactics. It's true I don't NEED to do it, but sometimes it's just fun to throw in a "changeup" serve. Is this considered "cheap" or "bush", sort of like an underhand slice serve?
You are now just acting the clown. Welcome to my Ignore List. Say hello to the others.With big servers you have to stand well back to make the return.
The reality is that when standing in a position where you are capable of returning a normal serve from a hard-hitting player, a half-well executed underarm dink is an easy ace.
Find me an example where he has.
That's because Federer has class. However, you will notice that he has never resorted to this tactic himself. Since it's so effective, if he has no problem with it, why doesn't he use it occassionally?
Really? I would beg to differ. I think you would find that the drop shot serve almost always scores an unreturnable. It's very rare to see it returned at the pro level.
Well no. He wasn't serving for the match and it wasn't a final.
I think it's far more telling that when he DID get to the final and was playing against one of the most beloved sportsmen the game has produced in Edberg, he used far more orthodox tactics - despite that match also being quite gruelling and close.
With big servers you have to stand well back to make the return.
The reality is that when standing in a position where you are capable of returning a normal serve from a hard-hitting player, a half-well executed underarm dink is an easy ace.
Find me an example where he has.
That's because Federer has class. However, you will notice that he has never resorted to this tactic himself. Since it's so effective, if he has no problem with it, why doesn't he use it occassionally?
Really? I would beg to differ. I think you would find that the drop shot serve almost always scores an unreturnable. It's very rare to see it returned at the pro level.
Well no. He wasn't serving for the match and it wasn't a final.
I think it's far more telling that when he DID get to the final and was playing against one of the most beloved sportsmen the game has produced in Edberg, he used far more orthodox tactics - despite that match also being quite gruelling and close.
You can mail me a check, OrangePower. Martina Hinges undoubtedly regrets her underhand serve, whether she will admit it or not.
'Cause it was bush league.
Well no. He wasn't serving for the match and it wasn't a final.
You can mail me a check, OrangePower. Martina Hinges undoubtedly regrets her underhand serve, whether she will admit it or not.
'Cause it was bush league.
Well, she didn't win that match, so it's hardly a good example. Had she won the match due to the underhand serve, you really think she would regret it?
I can't tell if you are being serious or not given the smilie, however, if you actually watch the video you'll see Roger smiling broadly right after missing the shot on that serve.
Your capitulation is noted.You are now just acting the clown. Welcome to my Ignore List. Say hello to the others.
Summary: Pro did it. Arguably this won him the FO. He has no regrets. I win the bet
I love a drop-serve every now and again, especially in a friendly match.
Here's one from Karlovic against Haas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3JsfD22wHQ
And here's one from Lendl against McEnroe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JYHBFkDAbs
The style of serve gives a fair opportunity. Its success or failure rests on the skill of the execution.
A drop serve does not have to be executed at all skillfully to beat an opponent who is well behind the baseline. Choosing to employ it at all guarantees an almost certain win. That is why many people regard it as so distasteful and cheap.
With big servers you have to stand well back to make the return.
The reality is that when standing in a position where you are capable of returning a normal serve from a hard-hitting player, a half-well executed underarm dink is an easy ace.
I had someone comment after my match last night that some guys might get pissed off with some of my serves. Every now and then I would throw in a "junk" serve when my opponent had just made an error and right after they usually try to blast a "junk" serve and make an error. I did this maybe 6-7 times total the entire match. My junk serve is usually one that I hit "3/4 sidearm" softly and try to drop it in the left front corner of the box, just over the net. If hit correctly, the opponent returns it right back to me and I then have an open court for the next shot. Another "junk" serve I use is to just slice it in low and soft with a very compact swing. One more is where i just pop it in soft and flat and low and try to ellicit an error.
My opponent claimed I didn't need to use these serves since my normal serve was very good and that I didn't double fault the entire match (true) so that I didn't need to do these tactics. It's true I don't NEED to do it, but sometimes it's just fun to throw in a "changeup" serve. Is this considered "cheap" or "bush", sort of like an underhand slice serve?
Meh.
I don't think it's bush. Fair game imo. The Karlovic serve to Haas for example, it just made sense, since Haas was pretty much in the stands for the return. I mean really his positioning was bordering on ridiculous. If you have an opponent with that court positioning at ANY other time, a dropshot is perfectly reasonable, so what's the difference on the serve?
At the same time I think the drop-serve's effectiveness as a play is limited. You don't see it that often in the pros not because people are scared to be "bush," but because it's not that common for the circumstances to be just right that it's actually a better option for the server than just putting in a good serve.
So I guess I pretty much agree with orangepower on this one.