Spin Doctor
Professional
I agree with the OP. Its okay to play up if you can give someone a decent game. But if not, then save your "playing up" for club matches or hits with friends. Don't waste everyone's time in tournies or leagues.
This post will no doubt ruffle some feathers, but I get really tired of players playing above their level in usta leagues. When I was a 4.0 I didn't want to play 3.5 players, I wanted to play 4.0's. I used to get so discouraged when I would take time away from my family on a weekend to show up for a match only to find out that I was going to play a 3.5 that I would end up beating 1 & 0 in less than an hour. I feel the same way now that I was bumped up to 4.5 a few years ago - I don't want to play 4.0's in a 4.5 league match - I've been there and done that!!! On the flipside, I have no desire to play in 5.0 leagues because, get this, I'm not a 5.0 (what a concept!)
This post is now meant to sound snobby, but you need to think of the person on the other side of the net too. While you're thinking to yourself "Wow, I just got 4 games off someone a .5 level higher than me!" the other person may be thinking "Wow. That sucked and was a total waste of an afternoon" or "I actually had to pay money to play that guy?!?"
I can understand it if a team has injuries, vacations or would otherwise need to forfeit, but I'll admit that I cringe when I look at some of these rosters in our 4.5 league and they're made up mostly of 4.0 players!
So here's the main point - you're at the level you're at for a reason - play there! Quit whining about not getting bumped or that you're too good for your current level and you need a challenge. If you are that good you'll get bumped eventually.
Work hard and play against higher players all you want outside of usta leagues and hopefully you'll improve. Then you can start stomping on people in your league, at your level, and you'll get bumped. Please do not test your game against more skilled players in usta leagues - you're wasting people's time and money.
^^^^^2.5 and 4.0 should never be on the same court together in competitive tennis IMO. At least not competing against one another (combo style doubles would even be a HUGE stretch)
^^^^^
I agree with everything you're saying. But - as long as USTA has playoffs and 'nationals', people will view that as the ultimate goal, and then some people will be willing to cheat the system in order to achieve that.
Personally, I would get rid of playoffs and beyond. The goal should be simply to have and enjoy a bunch of competitive matches during the course of the regular season, and then crown the team with the best record as the winner of that flight. There does not be any further incentive than that. But as long as there is incentive, there will be cheaters, same as in anything else.
And neither should 4.0s be mingling with 6.0+ but you have to understand that the tournament is an annual fundraiser event designed to raise money for the upkeeping of the public park so you have to enjoy it for what it is and be happy for being part of the contribution although it's a bit convenient for me to say that at this point.
I'm just annoyed that he actually posted my name on a public forum and made me look like the bad guy while leaving out the little details that matter.
Anyway next year if work doesn't get in the way I'll practice hard and join the advanced group and do my best there and you'll have my word that I won't come crying on an internet forum if the 3 time A draw champion bagels me. In fact I want to hit with him to improve my game
I play USTA because i enjoy being on a team...but i also enjoy the idea of traveling and playing and meeting other teams out of the area who gone through the same things i went thru to get there. I dont think i would play usta if there wasn't a playoff...i could just stay home and play with my friends or local players. I want to play for "something" other than just enjoying a bunch of competitive matches...i mean of course that's one main reason but i can already do that without usta.
I see the extent people will go to to win however, but i dont think getting rid of the "incentives" is the way to go....those same incentives keeps me interested in organized sports...
Br
We have a similar (non-USTA) league here and I have enjoyed it immensely. That league also requires teams to play in "order of strength." And, trust me, there's much to do about that particular requirement.I played in a set of local leagues that were structured kinda like the English football (soccer) leagues. Basically, there is just a regular season, but then at the end of the season the top few teams in each flight get promoted to the next level flight, and the bottom few teams get demoted. So the goal is to do well enough in the regular season to get promoted or at least not get demoted, and your reward is playing against better competition the next season. It actually worked very well and was a lot of fun, and it's probably still going strong (was in a different state to where I'm living now). And of course the English soccer leagues are very successful, so that model can work.
We have a similar (non-USTA) league here and I have enjoyed it immensely. That league also requires teams to play in "order of strength." And, trust me, there's much to do about that particular requirement.
While I think that sort of system works locally, I'm not so sure how it would play out on a national (as in the USA) scale.
The league I participated in was a bit of a different format, in that each of the three dubs pairs per team had to play each of the other team's pairs. Each individual 'match' was 11 games, and you'd play out all 11 games. So each pair gets to play 33 games - 11 against each of the opposing pairs. At the end of the team match, the team with 50 or more games (out of 99) wins.
Order of strength becomes irrelevant since you play all the opponents anyway. And it's kinda nice that you get to play against more people and not just your opposing number. And you know you will always play 33 games (equivalent of 3 full sets), no matter what - which also makes scheduling court time more predictable.
Yeah I hear you, but that's the catch 22 - post-season play is a great thing when people are playing by the system, but it is also what encourages many to try work around the system.
I played in a set of local leagues that were structured kinda like the English football (soccer) leagues. Basically, there is just a regular season, but then at the end of the season the top few teams in each flight get promoted to the next level flight, and the bottom few teams get demoted. So the goal is to do well enough in the regular season to get promoted or at least not get demoted, and your reward is playing against better competition the next season. It actually worked very well and was a lot of fun, and it's probably still going strong (was in a different state to where I'm living now). And of course the English soccer leagues are very successful, so that model can work.
Wow, that's a really cool format. I would do that in a heartbeat.The league I participated in was a bit of a different format, in that each of the three dubs pairs per team had to play each of the other team's pairs. Each individual 'match' was 11 games, and you'd play out all 11 games. So each pair gets to play 33 games - 11 against each of the opposing pairs. At the end of the team match, the team with 50 or more games (out of 99) wins.
Order of strength becomes irrelevant since you play all the opponents anyway. And it's kinda nice that you get to play against more people and not just your opposing number. And you know you will always play 33 games (equivalent of 3 full sets), no matter what - which also makes scheduling court time more predictable.
Stupid post. If 4.0's are beating everyone else in the 4.0 division, then the computer turns them into 4.5's. It's that simple.
Great post!I highly disagree with your post and if you were in our area, you also would disagree. I've been playing at 4.5 for the last 3 years and I can tell you that we certainly have players that are rated at 4.5 that are 5.0's. At this level, you just don't get moved up unless you're blowing out your opponent every match. We even have a 4.0 that's been a 4.0 for the last 4 years and played up at 4.5 all but his first. He's also played at 4.0 as well but still has not been bumped. There's a lack of 5.0 teams and if you're not easily destroying people than they're not going to risk moving someone up to that level and then watch them not play due to lack of teams.
If you have a problem with someone playing up, then beat them badly and afterwards you can tell them that they shouldn't be playing at that level. I've faced people that were .5 or 1 pts below me and have had decent matches. I've also won easily. On the flip side, I've played guys whom I knew should be 5.0's and have won and lost. If it's really about competition, you should be happy that you're beating someone easily. It means that you're doing everything right.
Someone said that if you play up it's selfish to the other player. However, it's also selfish to not let someone test their skills against you. I believe that the majority of people who play up are mostly competitive in that category or else they wouldn't continue to play at that level if they were getting killed every match. You also have to take into account that not everyone has the luxury of being able to setup matches against higher level players and thus has to play up during league to better themselves.
Competition is competition. Even at your "level" you play people who you can destroy and you play people who can destroy you. So what's the difference if you play someone with a rating lower than yours? Deal with it, beat them and move on.
DH
Competition is competition. Even at your "level" you play people who you can destroy and you play people who can destroy you. So what's the difference if you play someone with a rating lower than yours? Deal with it, beat them and move on.
DH
The difference is one of degree. Sure, there might be a large skill gap between players in the same level, but that won't happen so often. On the other hand, it's very likely there there will be a large skill gap between players in different levels.
A personal example - A few years ago, 4 out of 10 singles matches I had were against players playing up. On average I gave up 1 game per match in those four matches. No fun for anyone. Granted playing so many matches against players playing up is not the norm, but it happened.
Anyway... Since you think competition is competition, why not just allow players to play down a level?
Also, if you're playing singles predominantly, I believe that you see more of the discrepancy of play because a lot of times it's harder to get people to play in the singles lines. Especially as the adults get older. Even so, you still got 6 "great quality" matches out of it. And to say that it's "no fun for anyone" may not be true. Maybe those people that played up learned a thing or two about their game that they wouldn't have learned from playing in "their level".
If it's really that big of a deal for you, then don't play USTA. Just find a local club and play in the club league. I think you'll find that they still allow people to play up.
DH
Yeah that's true I was thinking about singles but maybe in dubs it's not as bad if you have someone playing up. In singles there is no place to hide and I doubt someone losing 0 & 1 gets much out of it.
Yes I got 6 good matches out of 10 but would rather have had 10
Funny how people will complain if they come across even 1 sandbagger out of 10 isn't it?
As it turns out, I don't play that much USTA anymore - mostly I set up matches with others in my tennis circle. I do enjoy USTA for the team aspect but the actual tennis isn't as good.
This post will no doubt ruffle some feathers, but I get really tired of players playing above their level in usta leagues. When I was a 4.0 I didn't want to play 3.5 players, I wanted to play 4.0's. I used to get so discouraged when I would take time away from my family on a weekend to show up for a match only to find out that I was going to play a 3.5 that I would end up beating 1 & 0 in less than an hour. I feel the same way now that I was bumped up to 4.5 a few years ago - I don't want to play 4.0's in a 4.5 league match - I've been there and done that!!! On the flipside, I have no desire to play in 5.0 leagues because, get this, I'm not a 5.0 (what a concept!)
This post is now meant to sound snobby, but you need to think of the person on the other side of the net too. While you're thinking to yourself "Wow, I just got 4 games off someone a .5 level higher than me!" the other person may be thinking "Wow. That sucked and was a total waste of an afternoon" or "I actually had to pay money to play that guy?!?"
I can understand it if a team has injuries, vacations or would otherwise need to forfeit, but I'll admit that I cringe when I look at some of these rosters in our 4.5 league and they're made up mostly of 4.0 players!
So here's the main point - you're at the level you're at for a reason - play there! Quit whining about not getting bumped or that you're too good for your current level and you need a challenge. If you are that good you'll get bumped eventually.
Work hard and play against higher players all you want outside of usta leagues and hopefully you'll improve. Then you can start stomping on people in your league, at your level, and you'll get bumped. Please do not test your game against more skilled players in usta leagues - you're wasting people's time and money.
I played on a 5.0 and 4.5 team this past summer as a rated 4.0. I went 6-0 at 4.5 and 2-2 at 5.0. These wins were in doubles against legitimate 5.0 doubles teams and my partner was a 4.5. Some people are just rated incorrectly. I didn't even play a 4.0 match this past summer. Needless to say I got bumped in the Fall.
This post will no doubt ruffle some feathers, but I get really tired of players playing above their level in usta leagues. When I was a 4.0 I didn't want to play 3.5 players, I wanted to play 4.0's. I used to get so discouraged when I would take time away from my family on a weekend to show up for a match only to find out that I was going to play a 3.5 that I would end up beating 1 & 0 in less than an hour. I feel the same way now that I was bumped up to 4.5 a few years ago - I don't want to play 4.0's in a 4.5 league match - I've been there and done that!!! On the flipside, I have no desire to play in 5.0 leagues because, get this, I'm not a 5.0 (what a concept!)
This post is now meant to sound snobby, but you need to think of the person on the other side of the net too. While you're thinking to yourself "Wow, I just got 4 games off someone a .5 level higher than me!" the other person may be thinking "Wow. That sucked and was a total waste of an afternoon" or "I actually had to pay money to play that guy?!?"
I can understand it if a team has injuries, vacations or would otherwise need to forfeit, but I'll admit that I cringe when I look at some of these rosters in our 4.5 league and they're made up mostly of 4.0 players!
So here's the main point - you're at the level you're at for a reason - play there! Quit whining about not getting bumped or that you're too good for your current level and you need a challenge. If you are that good you'll get bumped eventually.
Work hard and play against higher players all you want outside of usta leagues and hopefully you'll improve. Then you can start stomping on people in your league, at your level, and you'll get bumped. Please do not test your game against more skilled players in usta leagues - you're wasting people's time and money.
Hmmm I really doubt someone only 1/2 a level lower is getting thumped by you 0 and 0 or 0 and 1. Maybe the fact is your better then 4.0....
So if you feel you are wasting your time on your valuable weekends...play open events.....I will be more then happy to thump you 0 and 0 so you can have a "worthwhile" weekend.
Good Grief people you are playing recreational tennis....when will the madness end?
Huh? You're missing the point - I wouldn't play an open event because I'm not an open level caliber player; I'm a 4.5, that's where I play. While playing 4.5 tennis I don't want to play 4.0 players - I don't think it's that crazy of a thought.
You missed the part about 'league matches'. The OP simply expects the league to be made up of players at the prescribed level. He paid $$$ and is taking time out of his life - doesn't want to waste either against players not at his level. No one is against 'working on parts of their game', 'playing better players', etc. Just don't do it in this environment.Being a 4.5 I'm sure there are elements of your game you need to improve...so work on those when playing someone your obvious superior to.... I'm sure you would get something out of it.
You missed the part about 'league matches'. The OP simply expects the league to be made up of players at the prescribed level. He paid $$$ and is taking time out of his life - doesn't want to waste either against players not at his level. No one is against 'working on parts of their game', 'playing better players', etc. Just don't do it in this environment.
I was playing #1 singles for our San Diego 4.5 team and discovered my opponent was not only the 25 year old head pro of the opponents tennis club; but he hadn't lost before the semi's in any of his last 5 OPEN tournaments. I recall he had an open ranking in the top 20 in souithern california. Seems to me someone like that should not be allowed to play in a 4.5 league even if he wants to.
That same year; against another club I played at 4.5; #2 singles and when I looked up my oponent 19 years old; he had within the last 3 months won the Southern Calif 5.5 playoffs (Grand Prix).
I therefore concluded that anyone can play down at the 4.5 level???
Why is this considered OK???
I continue to be amazed at these team sizes... 32 players?! Around here, most teams (2 singles + 3 doubles league format) are 10-14 players. More than 16 is practically unheard of.
Added: Our local tennis association had "100% in-level" rule for a couple of years... something that I helped to overturn once I got on the Board of Directors. 75% is tried and true.
I honestly don't mind playing players that I'm better than. It's still challenging. I try not to lose any games, or crush them as bad as I'm able. I also work on going for my serve more, first and second, come to the net more, and work on my topspin backhand. The challenge is beating those players as bad as you think you're supposed to. The people that hate playing these guys are probably losing more games than expected, and it hurts their ego.
That's cool that you whipped them so bad, and I get what you're saying. It just doesn't really bother me, I guess. If they can really play and hit the ball well, it reminds me that I'm playing at a high level, and that people want to be where I am. That is a big percentage of your matches that you played down without volunteering to, though.
Julius and Cindy, seriously?
A few seasons ago I had the misfortune of having 5 of my 11 singles matches be against players playing up.
Scores:
1 & 1
1 & 0
0 & 1
0 & 3
0 & 0
These were for the most part not players who actually thought they could compete, but rather sacrificial lambs sent to the slaughter by their captains, figuring they would rather use their strongest players elsewhere in the lineup.
Nobody benefited from these matches - not my opponents, and certainly not me.
Luckily I have not had to face such a high % of opponents playing up in the last couple of seasons, otherwise I would seriously reconsider playing USTA.
How can you be sure your opponents did not benefit from those matches? I read on this forums all the time that we should be thankful for sandbaggers because they give us the opportunity to play better players. So there really is no benefit to playing better players?