Steffi the only player (male or female) to have defended all the majors

S

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
Not only she is the only one, but she's defended all of them twice!
Australian Open : 89, 90
Roland Garros, 88, 96
Wimbledon : 89, 92
US Open : 89, 96

Court has never defended a Wimbledon title.

Emerson has never defended an Australian Open or a Wimbledon title.

Laver has never defended an Australian Open, a French Open or a US Open title.

Navratilova has never defended an Australian Open or a French Open title.

Evert has never defended an Australian Open or a Wimbledon title.
 
S

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
BTURNER said:
There you have it, undeniable evidence Steffi was a fairly decent tennis player!
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lol

I think in almost 5 years here, it is my very first thread about Steffi. I just though this was an awesome accomplishment.

I think Lenglen, Wills Moody, Connolly and Laver would have done it no doubt. They were so dominant. But for different reasons, they were not able to. (And I know that two of them doesn't even have the career slam...)
 
boredone3456

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
Stats like that are why lately I have been leaning towards co-ranking Steffi and Navratilova as #1 on my GOAT list. Both have things that are just insanely scary stats wise.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Steffi could have become the greatest tennis player ever but a number of flaws prevent her ranking over the likes of Navratilova, Court, or Evert:

-Her major slump from 1990-1994, right in the middle of what should have been her prime. Resulting in only 1 slam win in 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, even with only Seles in 91 and 92 only as real competition. 1993 she won 3 slams but only due to horrendous chokes by Fernandez in the French Open final and Novotna in the Wimbledon final, so it might as well have been only 1 that year too. She wasnt really in form even in 1993, losing multiple times to Sanchez early in the year, being spanked by Seles in the Australian Open final, getting spanked by Conchita Martinez on fast carpet late that year, losing a set to a Maleeva sister in the U.S Open semis, and even losing to Nicole Provis-Bradkte late that year. 1988, 1989, 1995, and 1996 were her only great years of tennis.

-Her failure to gain the record at any of the 4 slam venues, or the overall slam record. That she failed to do this despite the advantage of the Seles stabbing is even more telling a mark against her.

-Worst of all her 4-1 record vs Navratilova at the U.S Open. Navratilova was out of her prime for 3 or 4 of those 5 matches, and Steffi in hers for 3 or 4 of the 5, making it an even more glaring flaw. This is also their most neutral meeting ground, carpet and grass favoring Martina, rebound ace and clay favoring Steffi.

-Other than Seles in 91 and 92 facing no all time great in their primes when winning her slams from 1987 to 1999.
 
pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
NadalAgassi said:
Steffi could have become the greatest tennis player ever but a number of flaws prevent her ranking over the likes of Navratilova, Court, or Evert:

-Her major slump from 1990-1994, right in the middle of what should have been her prime. Resulting in only 1 slam win in 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, even with only Seles in 91 and 92 only as real competition. 1993 she won 3 slams but only due to horrendous chokes by Fernandez in the French Open final and Novotna in the Wimbledon final, so it might as well have been only 1 that year too. She wasnt really in form even in 1993, losing multiple times to Sanchez early in the year, being spanked by Seles in the Australian Open final, getting spanked by Conchita Martinez on fast carpet late that year, losing a set to a Maleeva sister in the U.S Open semis, and even losing to Nicole Provis-Bradkte late that year. 1988, 1989, 1995, and 1996 were her only great years of tennis.

-Her failure to gain the record at any of the 4 slam venues, or the overall slam record. That she failed to do this despite the advantage of the Seles stabbing is even more telling a mark against her.

-Worst of all her 4-1 record vs Navratilova at the U.S Open. Navratilova was out of her prime for 3 or 4 of those 5 matches, and Steffi in hers for 3 or 4 of the 5, making it an even more glaring flaw. This is also their most neutral meeting ground, carpet and grass favoring Martina, rebound ace and clay favoring Steffi.

-Other than Seles in 91 and 92 facing no all time great in their primes when winning her slams from 1987 to 1999.
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Martina also won 60 more tournaments than Steffi in her career. I think it's 167 to 107. That's a lot more tournaments won by Navratilova.
 
G

Gizo

Hall of Fame
Also it was incredibly impressive that Steffi was able to defend each of the 4 slams at her first attempt.
 
S

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
NadalAgassi said:
-Her major slump.
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Steffi has stayed in the top 2 in WTA ranking from march 1987 to june 1997. Even with so many slumps, she was able to be in the top or in the bottom of the draw for more than a decade.

NadalAgassi said:
-Worst of all her 4-1 record vs Navratilova at the U.S Open. Navratilova was out of her prime for 3 or 4 of those 5 matches, and Steffi in hers for 3 or 4 of the 5, making it an even more glaring flaw. This is also their most neutral meeting ground, carpet and grass favoring Martina, rebound ace and clay favoring Steffi.
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Navratilova : 4 USO titles
Graf : 5 USO titles

What would you rather have? The H2H or one more title? And I am well aware that Martina lost a couple of very close finals & Austin and Mandlikova but she did lost them so who cares. Graf lost a close one too in '94.
 
S

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
NadalAgassi said:
-Other than Seles in 91 and 92 facing no all time great in their primes when winning her slams from 1987 to 1999.
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I like Navratilova a lot but she didn't face the strongest competition either. When she was peaking in 1982, Evert has already been on the tour for a very long time. The great Chrissy was already beating the great Margaret during her Grand Slam season in 1970. 13 seasons later, Chris had to be at her absolute best still, otherwise, who was there to challenge Martina? :confused:
 
boredone3456

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
Evert arguably came close to also defending all 4 but was stopped by Martina at the Austrailian in 1985 (after winning it in '82 and '84, she skipped in '83) and by Martina again at Wimbledon in 1982 I think? Its funny how Evert made like 34 slam finals(more than Martina, Court, and Steffi I think) and yet she never won consecutively at all 4.
 
TomT

TomT

Hall of Fame
Steffi-forever said:
Not only she is the only one, but she's defended all of them twice!
Australian Open : 89, 90
Roland Garros, 88, 96
Wimbledon : 89, 92
US Open : 89, 96

Court has never defended a Wimbledon title.

Emerson has never defended an Australian Open or a Wimbledon title.

Laver has never defended an Australian Open, a French Open or a US Open title.

Navratilova has never defended an Australian Open or a French Open title.

Evert has never defended an Australian Open or a Wimbledon title.
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Yeah, I think Steffi has to be regarded as the greatest woman tennis player of all time. But that's just my opinion.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Steffi-forever said:
Navratilova : 4 USO titles
Graf : 5 USO titles

What would you rather have? The H2H or one more title? And I am well aware that Martina lost a couple of very close finals & Austin and Mandlikova but she did lost them so who cares. Graf lost a close one too in '94.
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How much you win is largely due to your competition though. The fact Martina aged 29 or older for 4 of their 5 meetings, with Steffi aged 17 to 22 and World #1 in 3 of those, went 4-1 vs Steffi at the U.S Open, and even choked a big lead in the one loss, shows that Martina >>> Steffi in pure ability on their most neutral surface, and had they been in their primes together Martina would have been much stronger on even a neutral court.
 
treblings

treblings

Hall of Fame
look at the facts and figures. all these arguments about strong/weak competition or past her prime/not yet in her prime are personal opinions
 
kiki

kiki

Banned
I don´t think we can have toughest foursomes for ladies play ( Open era) than:

early 70´s:King,Court,Goolagong and Evert - with Wade and Richey following-

early 80´s: Navratilova,Evert,Mandlikova and Austin - jaeger and Shriver right behind-

early 90´s:Seles,Graf,Sabatini and Sanchez(clay)/Navi(fast)

late 90´s: Seles,Graf,Hingis,Davenport - Williams and Kournikova next-
 
boredone3456

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
kiki said:
I don´t think we can have toughest foursomes for ladies play ( Open era) than:

early 70´s:King,Court,Goolagong and Evert - with Wade and Richey following-

early 80´s: Navratilova,Evert,Mandlikova and Austin - jaeger and Shriver right behind-

early 90´s:Seles,Graf,Sabatini and Sanchez(clay)/Navi(fast)

late 90´s: Seles,Graf,Hingis,Davenport - Williams and Kournikova next-
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Kournikova one of the strongest women of the late 90's? Sorry but absolutely not, she never even won a singles title. She does not deserve to be put in the same breath as those other women. Novotna would be a much better choice. To say Kournikova is just ridiculous.
 
martini1

martini1

Hall of Fame
She is the only person in recent history (perhaps the open era too) to do the golden calendar slam. That is something we won't see this year, and haven't seen since 1988!
 
kiki

kiki

Banned
boredone3456 said:
Kournikova one of the strongest women of the late 90's? Sorry but absolutely not, she never even won a singles title. She does not deserve to be put in the same breath as those other women. Novotna would be a much better choice. To say Kournikova is just ridiculous.
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That is your opinion.Mine is, the two best ever eras in women´s tennis ( just open era tennis) are, from 1975 to 1980, starting with Court and King, going through Wade,Cawley,Evert LLoyd and Navratilova and edning with Mandlikova and Tracy Austin...and 1996 to 2000 or 2001, when Graf and Seles, not to mention Sanchez,Pierce and Martinez were competitive, and a new ultratalented crop, led by Hingis,Williams,Davenport,Kournikova and Capriati were playing their best tennis.Clijsters and Serena would start their careers just at the end of this second great era.
 
S

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
NadalAgassi said:
How much you win is largely due to your competition though. The fact Martina aged 29 or older for 4 of their 5 meetings, with Steffi aged 17 to 22 and World #1 in 3 of those, went 4-1 vs Steffi at the U.S Open, and even choked a big lead in the one loss, shows that Martina >>> Steffi in pure ability on their most neutral surface, and had they been in their primes together Martina would have been much stronger on even a neutral court.
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Yes, but what about the other slams? Graf is 2-1 & Nav. at Wimbledon. Let's assume they'll be equal there in their prime. It leaves the clay of the French and the grass or rebound ace for the AO... In her prime, Nav. lost there on grass & Evert, Sukova, Mandlikova. Graf & Novotna and Seles. Only one GS (USO) doesn't give the whole picture about how they would play & each other in their prime. Don't forget they've played 15 out of 18 times (Miami is a slow HC I think) on fast surfaces... Graf is arguably as great on slow (10 slams on slow vs 12 on fast) but not Navratilova.

AO Grass - Navratilova
AO RA - Graf
FO - Graf
WIM - they would be equal imo
US0 - Navratilova

So both in their prime will most certainly not be : Martina >>> Steffi. It would be Martina = Steffi imo.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
boredone3456 said:
Kournikova one of the strongest women of the late 90's? Sorry but absolutely not, she never even won a singles title. She does not deserve to be put in the same breath as those other women. Novotna would be a much better choice. To say Kournikova is just ridiculous.
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why are you so surprised ? its kiki la la land after all ...... :)
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
treblings said:
look at the facts and figures. all these arguments about strong/weak competition or past her prime/not yet in her prime are personal opinions
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I concur:

Tournament wins- Court 199, Navratilova 167, Evert 158, Graf 107
Most Australian Opens- Court
Most French Opens- Evert
Most Wimbledons- Navratilova
Most U.S Opens in Open Era- Evert
Most WTA Championships- Navratilova
Most Overall Slams- Court
Most Dominance- Navratilova
Most Longevity- Navratilova
Most Consistency- Evert
Most Accomplishments- Court
Best Doubles perfromances- Court and Navratilova
Best Combined Singles/Doubles performances- Court and Navratilova
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Steffi-forever said:
Yes, but what about the other slams? Graf is 2-1 & Nav. at Wimbledon. Let's assume they'll be equal there in their prime. It leaves the clay of the French and the grass or rebound ace for the AO... In her prime, Nav. lost there on grass & Evert, Sukova, Mandlikova. Graf & Novotna and Seles. Only one GS (USO) doesn't give the whole picture about how they would play & each other in their prime. Don't forget they've played 15 out of 18 times (Miami is a slow HC I think) on fast surfaces... Graf is arguably as great on slow (10 slams on slow vs 12 on fast) but not Navratilova.

AO Grass - Navratilova
AO RA - Graf
FO - Graf
WIM - they would be equal imo
US0 - Navratilova

So both in their prime will most certainly not be : Martina >>> Steffi. It would be Martina = Steffi imo.
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Navratilova is the grass court GOAT. What reason is there to believe Steffi would do better on grass vs the grass GOAT than on decoturf with both in their primes. The Wimbledon H2H is more in Steffi's favor only since their meetings came in 88 and 89 when MN was even more aged and past her prime than she already was in 86 and 87, plus 1988 was a major slumping year for Navratilova, even by her past prime standards, probably her worst year of tennis after 1994. Wimbledon 89 was probably one of the best slams Graf ever played, above her usual level, and in her true best year of tennis she would ever produce.

Navratilova would probably dominate Graf even more thoroughly at Wimbledon in their mutual primes than the U.S Open, based on the simple fact that is Navratilova's most dominant surface and slam, and the place she is consdered best ever on. You also didnt mention the WTA Championships, where Navratilova the carpet/indoor GOAT would also have the edge.

A 30 year old Navratilova outplayed and should have beaten a prime Steffi in the 87 French Open final, only didnt due to a bad choke especialy in the first game she served for it with 2 double faults and 4 errors, so Steffi having the edge there prime on prime is questionable at best. Rebound ace is probably Graf's worst surface, and Navratilova didnt get to play there once during her prime, so who knows even there.
 
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abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
^^

Calendar slam ( on 3 surfaces )
Most weeks at #1
Most no of fully attended slams (not fully counting Court's AOs )
Most versatile across all surfaces (/slams )
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
kiki said:
The federal is back again¡¡¡
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there is no word called federal in this context ...... your english/comprehension is just as bad as your cluelessness about tennis ...

ah, yes, Laver-****, let us all know how the mighty Kournikova frightened all the singles players in the late 90s and won tons of singles titles .... oh wait .... she didn't win any ....:oops:
 
kiki

kiki

Banned
abmk said:
there is no word called federal in this context ...... your english/comprehension is just as bad as your cluelessness about tennis ...

ah, yes, Laver-****, let us all know how the mighty Kournikova frightened all the singles players in the late 90s and won tons of singles titles .... oh wait .... she didn't win any ....:oops:
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Repat with me "I was a little kid when 80´s and 90´s tennis", repeat with me " I was a little kid when 80´s and 90´s tennis"
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
kiki said:
Repat with me "I was a little kid when 80´s and 90´s tennis", repeat with me " I was a little kid when 80´s and 90´s tennis"
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Here is a list of Kournikova's singles titles :






















/END
 
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N

NadalAgassi

Guest
abmk said:
Calendar slam ( on 3 surfaces )
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The same argument used against Laver and still a failed one in this case too. A Grand Slam is a Grand Slam. Like Laver, Connolly and Court probably would have excelled even more on hard courts, and only benefited from 2 hard court slams like today. 3 women have won the Grand Slam and Graf is one of them. Her achievement equals the best of all time in this one regard, but not alone, 3 stand exactly equal here.

Most weeks at #1
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Computer rankings for women only began in 1975. No way to know if she really has more weeks at #1 than Lenglen, Wills, Court, or even Evert.

Most no of fully attended slams (not fully counting Court's AOs )
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You cant do that. That is just like someone discounting Federer's Wimbledons since he had no competition, Nadal's French Opens since he had no competition, or all the slams Graf won after Seles was stabbed. Court had weak competition at "some" of the Australian Opens she won, albeit she still beat Bueno, King, Goolagong, in finals there, but she has 11 Australian Opens and 24 slams. Fact.

Now subjectively you can argue against the value due to lack of competition, and when it comes to Court and the Australian Open you have a valid point t hen, but then again this does not help Graf by comparision in any sense, it does help Navratilova and Evert.

Most versatile across all surfaces (/slams )
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Probably but only due to the Seles stabbing. At the time of that she had only 2 French and 2 U.S Open titles. Would her 4 of each slam record have even been possible without the Seles stabbing? She would have needed atleast 2 more French Opens and Seles had won the last 3, atleast 2 more U.S Opens and Seles had won the last 2, and she had only 4 years left as a real contender (apart from her blip return to the top in mid 99) and didnt even win all 4 as it was without Seles. Also would have needed to win the 94 Australian Open, the only Australian she both played and contended after the Seles stabbing, and that was a year after playing her best and getting clobbered by the Seles in the 93 final.
 
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kiki

kiki

Banned
abmk said:
He has 16 of them, your problem is you don't know anything about tennis ....:)
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GS is 4 majors the same year...you still dind´t know that?

Oh¡ wait, you are delusional since your hero has a deficit of -3 vs Laver...:)
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
NadalAgassi said:
The same argument used against Laver and still a failed one in this case too. A Grand Slam is a Grand Slam. Like Laver, Connolly and Court probably would have excelled even more on hard courts, and only benefited from 2 hard court slams like today. 3 women have won the Grand Slam and Graf is one of them. Her achievement equals the best of all time in this one regard, but not alone, 3 stand exactly equal here.
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no, you fail here .... hard courts are the most neutral surface as far as playing styles are concerned. Hence competition is the toughest ....


NadalAgassi said:
Computer rankings for women only began in 1975. No way to know if she really has more weeks at #1 than Lenglen, Wills, Court, or even Evert.
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fine ...


NadalAgassi said:
You cant do that. That is just like someone discounting Federer's Wimbledons since he had no competition, Nadal's French Opens since he had no competition, or all the slams Graf won after Seles was stabbed. Court had weak competition at "some" of the Australian Opens she won, albeit she still beat Bueno, King, Goolagong, in finals there, but she has 11 Australian Opens and 24 slams. Fact.

Now subjectively you can argue against the value due to lack of competition, and when it comes to Court and the Australian Open you have a valid point t hen, but then again this does not help Graf by comparision in any sense, it does help Navratilova and Evert.
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err, what a load of BS. federer didn't have weak competition at wimbledon, neither did rafa at the FO .....both faced full or near full fields ...... not the case with Court's slams at the AO , many of which were poorly attended


NadalAgassi said:
Probably but only due to the Seles stabbing. At the time of that she had only 2 French and 2 U.S Open titles. Would her 4 of each slam record have even been possible without the Seles stabbing? She would have needed atleast 2 more French Opens and Seles had won the last 3, atleast 2 more U.S Opens and Seles had won the last 2, and she had only 4 years left as a real contender (apart from her blip return to the top in mid 99) and didnt even win all 4 as it was without Seles. Also would have needed to win the 94 Australian Open, the only Australian she both played and contended after the Seles stabbing, and that was a year after playing her best and getting clobbered by the Seles in the 93 final.
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all subjective as to how much she would've won without the stabbing ....
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
kiki said:
GS is 4 majors the same year...you still dind´t know that?

Oh¡ wait, you are delusional since your hero has a deficit of -3 vs Laver...:)
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times change - but then you are still living in the 60s ...:twisted:
 
S

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
NadalAgassi said:
Navratilova is the grass court GOAT. What reason is there to believe Steffi would do better on grass vs the grass GOAT than on decoturf with both in their primes. The Wimbledon H2H is more in Steffi's favor only since their meetings came in 88 and 89 when MN was even more aged and past her prime than she already was in 86 and 87, plus 1988 was a major slumping year for Navratilova, even by her past prime standards, probably her worst year of tennis after 1994. Wimbledon 89 was probably one of the best slams Graf ever played, above her usual level, and in her true best year of tennis she would ever produce.

Navratilova would probably dominate Graf even more thoroughly at Wimbledon in their mutual primes than the U.S Open, based on the simple fact that is Navratilova's most dominant surface and slam, and the place she is consdered best ever on. You also didnt mention the WTA Championships, where Navratilova the carpet/indoor GOAT would also have the edge.

A 30 year old Navratilova outplayed and should have beaten a prime Steffi in the 87 French Open final, only didnt due to a bad choke especialy in the first game she served for it with 2 double faults and 4 errors, so Steffi having the edge there prime on prime is questionable at best. Rebound ace is probably Graf's worst surface, and Navratilova didnt get to play there once during her prime, so who knows even there.
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LOL What a washep up has been Navratilova was in those years. She was only the 6 times defending champs. at Wimbledon in '88, with a year of 70-7, 9 titles, and in '89 she was 73-7 with 8 titles. LOL

And it's 2-1 for Graf at Wimbledon. :) How can you assume Nav. would beat Graf there time and time again?
 
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S

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
NadalAgassi said:
I concur:

Tournament wins- Court 199, Navratilova 167, Evert 158, Graf 107
Most Australian Opens- Court
Most French Opens- Evert
Most Wimbledons- Navratilova
Most U.S Opens in Open Era- Evert
Most WTA Championships- Navratilova
Most Overall Slams- Court
Most Dominance- Navratilova
Most Longevity- Navratilova
Most Consistency- Evert
Most Accomplishments- Court
Best Doubles perfromances- Court and Navratilova
Best Combined Singles/Doubles performances- Court and Navratilova
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Graf/Navratilova :

Steffi has more slams, more Australian Open, more French Open, more US Open, more consecutive weeks at #1, more weeks at #1, more year-ends at #1, more consecutive weeks in the top 2, more French Open-Wimbledon, more hardcourt slams, more little slams, a Golden Slam, won all the slams at least 4 times each, 13 straight slam finals, the best 2 years back-to-back in 88-89 winning 7 slams + a final..., defended all the slams 2 times each, won all the slams on all the surfaces 6 times each. :)

Navratilova has more wimbledon, more titles, better % for a season in '83. But Navratilova won half of her slams at Wimbledon, 12 out of 18 on grass.
 
S

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
NadalAgassi said:
-Other than Seles in 91 and 92 facing no all time great in their primes when winning her slams from 1987 to 1999.
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Evert was starting her 13th season on tour when Navratilova was entering her prime in '82, but Nav. was already past her prime in 87 so Graf had no competition. Makes perfect sense. :)
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
abmk said:
no, you fail here .... hard courts are the most neutral surface as far as playing styles are concerned. Hence competition is the toughest ....
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It is not the faults of Laver, Court, Connolly, and Budge that slams were played on grass or clay then. They won all the slams on the surfaces they were held in and thus won the Grand Slam. If one wants to get subjective the fact of the matter is the super all court and well rounded games of Laver and Court, probably the most complete players in history, would have been all that much tougher to beat on hard courts. As for Connolly her murderous and error proof ground game, probably the best in history considering the time she played in, would have been all that much tougher on hard courts too.


err, what a load of BS. federer didn't have weak competition at wimbledon, neither did rafa at the FO .....both faced full or near full fields ...... not the case with Court's slams at the AO , many of which were poorly attended
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Just because they were "full fields" does not mean they were good ones. It is a well known fact Federer has no competition on grass, and likewise Nadal on clay. Who did Federer have to face on grass besides Nadal in 2007 and 2008 (and baby then grass mug Nadal in 2006 who should have been straight setted by Kendrick but rose through the nothing draw this eras nothing grass fields commonly produces to the final by some miracle). Andy Roddick his pigeon of pigeons, Sebastien Grosjean, Hewitt in the twilight of his years as a top player and another huge Federer pigeon, Richard Gasquet? As for Nadal on clay he only has to beat his pigeon Federer, Djokovic the last year or two, and other than that who, Nikolay Davydenko the hard courter and slam choker, Tommy Robredo, David Ferrer.

Margaret Court even with the half fields in Australia faced as much competition as that in atleast half of her wins. More specifically in comparision to Graf who did she face once Seles was stabbed? Sanchez Vicario who probably would have been a 1 slam winner without the stabbing and is considered less talented than even Sabatini, another 1 slam winner of the Graf era who had the misfortune to peak at the same time as Graf and Seles. Sabatini herself was on massive career decline by then and not a contender. The aging Naratilova was now reaching the point she wasnt even a contender anymore too. Capriati burnt out and was off the tour awhile. Fernandez was constantly injured and not contending ever again after the 93 French. So Sanchez, young erratic Pierce, headcase Novotna, and Conchita Martinez, that was it, until Hingis and a then grossly overweight Davenport began to emerge, and an overweight weaker Seles returned.




all subjective as to how much she would've won without the stabbing ....
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Of course but the Seles stabbing is not just any what if. It is not a what if like a person getting injured or ill, or a personal problem. It is a one time situation that has never happened before in any sport, an athlete being injured in the coruse of battle with the intent to help another athlete. It undeniably casts a cloud over the beneficiary.
 
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B

BTURNER

Legend
Of the seven women with potential for GOAT ( Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Court, Evert, Navratilova, and Graf) I just can't justify giving the final trophy to the woman with arguably the worst record of the seven on European red clay. Martina has just two majors on the red dirt, no Germans, no Italians or Madrid titles to mitigate. She was superb, no doubt, when at her very best ( read 1984). but Evert wasn't everywhere on the continent and Navratilova just did not come up with the goods often enough anymore than Evert did on grass . Therefore Graf who did on all surfaces, beats both for GOAT IMHO.
 
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D

DMan

Professional
NadalAgassi said:
Of course but the Seles stabbing is not just any what if. It is not a what if like a person getting injured or ill, or a personal problem. It is a one time situation that has never happened before in any sport, an athlete being injured in the coruse of battle with the intent to help another athlete. It undeniably casts a cloud over the beneficiary.
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Oh NadalAgassi GURL, I see you are back to your old wicked ways.

And for the record, there never has, and never will be a cloud over the "beneficiary" of this incident you refer to. Just you are attempt at a clever way of demeaning Graf. Something you've done for a long time. And funny, the longer these things are debated by experts, Graf's position only gets stronger (and no one ever talks about any "cloud".
 
D

DMan

Professional
NadalAgassi said:
Steffi could have become the greatest tennis player ever but a number of flaws prevent her ranking over the likes of Navratilova, Court, or Evert:

-Her major slump from 1990-1994, right in the middle of what should have been her prime.
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I'd like to have a "major slump" for 5 years, the majority of which Steffi spent ranked #1.

NadalAgassi said:
Resulting in only 1 slam win in 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, even with only Seles in 91 and 92 only as real competition.
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Which of course begs the question, if Seles were Graf's only competition, just who was Seles' competition?!

As far as Graf "only" winning 1 major in 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1994.....shows you how high she set the bar.....a year in which she "only" wins 1 major and maintains the #1 ranking is a ......."slump."

NadalAgassi said:
1993 she won 3 slams but only due to horrendous chokes by Fernandez in the French Open final and Novotna in the Wimbledon final, so it might as well have been only 1 that year too.
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Might as well.....but it wasn't. Graf won 3 of the 4 majors in 1993. That's a fact - even though you doing a poor job trying to refute and change the facts.

NadalAgassi said:
She wasnt really in form even in 1993, losing multiple times to Sanchez early in the year,
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Graf lost to Sanchez 2 in the first 5 months of the year (balanced by 3 wins. The first win was in the Miami final - a surprise win, but then again ASV was defending champ. The other ASV win was in Hamburg, 2 days after the stabbing. Graf was overcome with emotion at what happened. And of course she was the only player to take the time to visit Mons in hospital.

NadalAgassi said:
being spanked by Seles in the Australian Open final, getting spanked by Conchita Martinez on fast carpet late that year,
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"Spanked by Seles in the Australian Open?
"Spanked by Martinez in Philadelphia (so you're criticizing Graf's first and only career loss to world #4 Martinez at the end of a Graf 46 match win streak? I guess that is another demonstration of Graf not being "in form"

NadalAgassi said:
losing a set to a Maleeva sister in the U.S Open semis,
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Yeah, BAd Steffi lost the opening set 6-4, and came back to win 6-1,6-0. How horrible of her! And Maleeva was in the top 10. Does make you wonder how come Seles had to struggle to beat #143 Kijimuta in the 4R of the French in 1992?

NadalAgassi said:
and even losing to Nicole Provis-Bradkte late that year.
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That was a Fed Cup loss. Not counted towards rankings. And played the week after Wimbeldon.

NadalAgassi said:
1988, 1989, 1995, and 1996 were her only great years of tennis.

-Her failure to gain the record at any of the 4 slam venues, or the overall slam record. That she failed to do this despite the advantage of the Seles stabbing is even more telling a mark against her.
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This is a sickening comment. Because it upholds Seles as the standard bearer, when she was nothing of the kind. Because Seles missed a number of majors - which was her own fault - doesn't reflect poorly on Graf.

Court (Australian), Navratilova (Wimbledon), and Evert (French) had more more opportunities than Graf did to earn the most # of titles at those 3 majors.

And of course Graf had the audacity to win each major AT LEAST 4 times! Something no player has ever done!

NadalAgassi said:
-Worst of all her 4-1 record vs Navratilova at the U.S Open. Navratilova was out of her prime for 3 or 4 of those 5 matches, and Steffi in hers for 3 or 4 of the 5, making it an even more glaring flaw. This is also their most neutral meeting ground, carpet and grass favoring Martina, rebound ace and clay favoring Steffi.
Click to expand...

Their US Open matchups were:
1985 SF (28 yo Martina vs 16 yo Steffi in her first ever major semi)
1986 SF (29 yo #1 Martina vs 17 yo Steffi.....thanks God Martina held on by a whisker to take that match)
1987 F 30 yo Martina upends recently new #1 Steffi
1989 Graf beats Navratilova comprehensively, winning 11 of the last 14 games.
1991 SF, 34 yo Martina stuns #1 Steffi 76,67,64 (in the worst match of Graf's career).

Martina was out of her prime in 1991. But who is to say she wasn't part of her prime in 1985-1989?

NadalAgassi said:
-Other than Seles in 91 and 92 facing no all time great in their primes when winning her slams from 1987 to 1999.
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Am still wondering, since Graf faced no real competition other than Seles, just who was Mons competition. Surely you can't say MJ Fernandez, Novotna, Sanchez, and granny Navratilova.
 
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