kiki
Banned
...she was robbed by the umpire and the french crown.Graf´s atittude was poor.
Peak Serena Vs peak Graf
- Thread starter tank_job
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...she was robbed by the umpire and the french crown.Graf´s atittude was poor.
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
Marie Antoinette was never a big Hingis fan.
sunof tennis
Professional
Yeah. One match answers all the questions of the universe
sunof tennis
Professional
Not sure about the slice backhand comment. Serena struglled last year with Stosur's.
kiki
Banned
Hahaha.Got it.But you knew I meant french frogs sitting in the stands...
snowwhite
Professional
Oh yeah, first meeting was in key biskayne 1998, world no.1 defending champion beat Serena 7/6 in the third, Serena was playing only in her 3rd tournament. Three of the six Hingis wins were before the first slam of Serena, not to mention the fourth win, my God, still remember 2000 Toronto final, Serena lead 6/0, 3/0, before she got injured and withdrawn, still remember Hingis' face embarrassment of holding that cup lol.
Too smart of Hingis to retire knowing she won't get any thing in 2002-2003 except multiplying that number (7 losses) few times
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jelle v
Hall of Fame
Come-back Monica was never as good as the before Monica. Coma-back Monica had suffered from overweight and had problems in the movement area. Well, that's my opinion anyway. :-|
kiki
Banned
Serena never played peak Hingis.
Brian11785
Hall of Fame
That is my point. Her movement issues caused her to struggle against the big hitters of '97-02', compared to Graf, who didn't have as much trouble with them. My question is "How would a fit, decent-moving Monica have fared against Venus/Serena/Davenport?"
snowwhite
Professional
you mean 1997? No peak or anything, same Martina Hingis of 1998 and 1999 etc. the only difference is there were no Graf, Serena, Henin etc., it was just Martina, just imagine in Wimbledon 97 Kournikova was a semifinalist!!!
N
NadalAgassi
Guest
Graf lost over half her matches vs Venus, Serena, Davenport combined in late 98-99. She didnt do that well, although she was around 30 by then.
Venus and Serena are horrible matchups for Monica, they hit harder off any part of the court and Monica even pre stabbing thrived off dictating points which back then she could do at will vs everyone except sometimes Graf, but not vs the new age power players who had copied Seles own game and taken it further. Both are also much better overall athletes, overall movers, and defenders, than even a fit Monica, and so that she wasnt and was moving much worse than her younger days made it even worse. Graf is different since she can come closer to matching their serving than Monica can, her slice backhand is actually effective vs the Williams who like to get in a rythym and Davenport who is unathletic and doesnt bend down easily, and since she obviously moves and defends alot better.
Yes Hingis peak was when there was no competition. Of course she looked great when Coetzer was World #3.
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kiki
Banned
Kournikova had amazing talent.She wasn´t focused on tennis but she was far more talented than 90% of current players.If she played in today´s era, even with her mind partially out of tennis, she´d have won a few majors.
D
Deleted member 293577
Guest
del
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tennisplayer1993
Professional
i'm american and I don't like the way serena plays. I remember watching some matches this year where when she was losing, she would do late grunts on her groundstrokes, at times disrupting opponents on theirs. very unclassy, so i have to go with graf even though i don't know much about her. just because i assume she was classier lol.
jelle v
Hall of Fame
Well in my opinion Graf had a very very tough time against Seles, with Seles being a pioneer with her hardhitting style. In my opinion however, the modern "girls" move better than Seles did in her prime and hit even harder with more angles. So my point is that if Graf had a very difficult time against Seles , and if you think Serena is better than Seles (which I believe in every aspect of the game), than Graf would not fare so well Against Serena.. :|
They've got different technology, maybe fitness technology etc too now. I think people overrate Serena and she hasn't had as gooder opposition as Graf. Seles was on a high for a bit, like Djoker, but would it have sustained? I don't recall her as having it over Graf totally, wasn't that nearer the end of Graf's reign? I still think Graf had more mind strength, and could basically figure out most opponents after iniital problems more than Serena. I think she is the GWOAT and Serena is not. But it's all opinions...
Warriorroger
Hall of Fame
Good post. Seles was never a force on grass (that's why I consider Graf better, cause she could winon all surfaces), never did she have an overall domination over Graf like some fans would like to make believe. Seles never lead the head to head. Serena vs Monica is superpower against great power, Serena has more power and a great serve. Serena vs Steffi is superpower vs a super athlete, thats slice backhand neutralizes a lot of the power. The reason Monica gave Steffi fits at time was the fact that Monica was lefthanded. Steffi had trouble with all lefthanders (Martina, Schnyder, Seles) for the same reason Roger Federer has trouble with lefthanders (Nadal). Both Federer and Graf like to hit the forehand from their backhandcorners and that's very difficult to do against the lefthander.
As you sais, but it's all opinions..
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
I think it's a stretch to say Federer has struggled against lefthanders in general...take away Nadal and he's 80-11 career vs leftys (.879). Compare that to his W-L vs rightys (.824).
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx?t=mr
JustBob
Hall of Fame
Now that's funny.
Talented yes, amazing talent no. Flat groundstrokes/UE prone, mediocre serve, there's a reason she became a much better doubles player than singles player. I doubt she would even make the top 50 today, let alone win slams...
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abmk
Bionic Poster
she couldn't win a freaking small singles title, when she played in her era and she would be winning majors in this era ??????? it only gets dumber with you ......
jelle v
Hall of Fame
I'm not saying that Seles had an overall domination over Graf, I'm saying Graf had a very,very difficult time against Seles, who had the best of her career in front of her, when she got stabbed at the age of 19.. When you compare Seles to Serena, in my opinion Serena is better in every aspect of the game.
And in regard to Graf slicing her way through Serena, I don't think so, there is this video of Graf vs Serena on youtube, where you can obviously see that Serena has no problem whatsoever with the slice backhand of Graf.
Also, comparing Seles' achievements with Djokoivic's achievements and saying that Seles was "on a high for a bit" is, well.. a matter of ignoring the facts to say it politely. Seles was winning majors frequently and if I'm not mistaking it wasn't just in one year but of a period of 3 years, and then she got stabbed.
Also, I don't see the point of saying that Seles was lefthanded.. she hit doublehanded from both wings, and her serve wasn't a very big weapon. Graf had difficulties because of the style of play, that is hitting the ball very hard, going from one corner to another, creating winners.
I know, it's all opinion, but I think that the difficulty that Graf had with Seles, is a very good indication that Graf would not win very often against a prime Serena, who is better than Seles in every aspect of the game.
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
I'm going to take Graf.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Graf's slice seems to be mentioned time and again as some sort of advantage, but that slice was rarely--if ever used (during the height of Graf's career) against someone who could take that shot "early" with Serena's kind of explosive response time. Graf's advantages would be the consistent forehand, and skill in keeping the opponent moving for the set up, which would threaten to exaust even one as powerful as peak Serena.
Tactically speaking, both are well matched--they know how to set up opponents for the kill shots, but something would need to give somewhere, and that may come down to one trying too hard to outthink the other (perhaps due to respecting the other's game too much), which leads to one of two self-defeating thoughts: caution (overestimating the opponent) or desperation (trying too hard to finish the opponent off quickly, which can lead to mistakes). Still, Grand Slam year Graf is likely too be too "on" for any caution or need to try too hard influencing her game, so it appears that she would have the edge--if playing with such a legendary form.
Tactically speaking, both are well matched--they know how to set up opponents for the kill shots, but something would need to give somewhere, and that may come down to one trying too hard to outthink the other (perhaps due to respecting the other's game too much), which leads to one of two self-defeating thoughts: caution (overestimating the opponent) or desperation (trying too hard to finish the opponent off quickly, which can lead to mistakes). Still, Grand Slam year Graf is likely too be too "on" for any caution or need to try too hard influencing her game, so it appears that she would have the edge--if playing with such a legendary form.
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Sid_Vicious
G.O.A.T.
An excellent post, Thundervolley.
kiki
Banned
Compared to the Azarenkas,Wozniackis and Stosur, she is jsut 5 or 6 times more talented.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
Azarenka would wipe the court with Kournikova...you see how she kills Radwanska, and Kournikova isn't even as good as Radwanska is.
kiki
Banned
azarenka is a joke.She has never played more than 2 different shots.Man, this is not a slam dunk contest
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
What's the weather like there?
Hard to tell, the question here is which era - both at their peak but with this era racquets and surfaces or early 90s
The fact is Steffi never played anyone so powerfull and with such serve like peak Serena, but asuming peak Steffi and say she is about the same age like peak Serena and she was developing in this stronger era we can agree that Steffi would be more powerfull hitter too and her game would be different.
I mean this whole different eras comparing must be said that technology, surfaces and everything matters, i mean put peak Serena in 1988 with not such powerfull racquets and different surfaces to current surfaces and Serena could be totally different player with much worse serve and not such powerfull groundstrokes that means soemby like Graf from 88 can move her from left to right like nothing.
So this comparision is impossible to make.
Yes they played each other when one was too old, beyond her peak and other was too young inexperienced far from peak either.
The fact is Steffi never played anyone so powerfull and with such serve like peak Serena, but asuming peak Steffi and say she is about the same age like peak Serena and she was developing in this stronger era we can agree that Steffi would be more powerfull hitter too and her game would be different.
I mean this whole different eras comparing must be said that technology, surfaces and everything matters, i mean put peak Serena in 1988 with not such powerfull racquets and different surfaces to current surfaces and Serena could be totally different player with much worse serve and not such powerfull groundstrokes that means soemby like Graf from 88 can move her from left to right like nothing.
So this comparision is impossible to make.
Yes they played each other when one was too old, beyond her peak and other was too young inexperienced far from peak either.
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N
NadalAgassi
Guest
Kournikova is a different kind of player than Radwanska completely. Overall she is weaker but she has many more weapons. Radwanska is hopeless vs Azarenka since Azarenka cant be hurt by players without the firewpower to hurt her. Kournikova has more power and shotmaking ability than Radwanska. Remember Anna did have career wins over Davenport (3 or 4, all in Davenport's prime), Hingis, Seles, Pierce, everyone except the Williams, so beating Azarenka wouldnt be beyond her reach. It would come on a rare day her flat strokes were landing in.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
I'd take Serena, she wouldn't have major issues holding serve and would dictate points from the first strike on the returns. However, once Serena fails to end the rallies quickly, Graf gets the upper hand in the rallies, but not much.
Azarenka "killing Radwanska" has less to do with how good she is than you think.
Radwanska is pretty underrated. The reason why Serena lost that second set is not because she "choked".
Serena's power is probably the most overrated in the open era. Is it in because of the bulging muscles?
Mary Pierce.
Martina says hello.
Serena isn't that good a returner. Crushing Azarenka's serves =/= crushing Steffi's.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Azarenka "killing Radwanska" has less to do with how good she is than you think.
Radwanska is pretty underrated. The reason why Serena lost that second set is not because she "choked".
Readwanska had no plan B.
Pierce was not in the same league. I recall opponents occasionally talk about how hard some of Pierce's shots were, but nowhere near the level of the decade of people talking about how strong Serena is executing any shot.
The-Champ
Legend
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Ivanovic got a racket on it. :lol:
Seriously, Pierce hits harder, get over it.
You imbecile, we were talking about hard hitting, something Pierce did better than anyone in the history of the game. :?
Also, don't even pretend peak Mary Pierce wouldn't crush Serena's ovaries.
Flaming does not help whatever point you thought you were making. Pierce never had the training or natural gifts to hit like Serena on the forehand, backhand, overhead, and serve. Even her chip and charge is powerful, while Pierce's was average in the rare times she ever used it. No one is going on and on about how much stronger she was above the rest--but they have said that about Serena.
jelle v
Hall of Fame
Ivanovic got a racket on it. :lol:
Seriously, Pierce hits harder, get over it.
You imbecile, we were talking about hard hitting, something Pierce did better than anyone in the history of the game. :?
Also, don't even pretend peak Mary Pierce wouldn't crush Serena's ovaries.
Imbecile? You could get banned for that, but you probably have been many times already. No way Mary Pierce hit the ball harder.. She took the ball really early, maybe you are confusing things? Someone puts up one highlight shot of Pierce and you think that that forehand return is an example of her game in general or something.. wow..
And yes I've been watching tennis since '87..
It doesn't matter what people have said. Seriously, when will you realize that just because Serena is the most successful player since Graf, it doesn't mean she is better than everyone at everything. (I know you didn't say it exactly like this, but you might as well have)
Pierce is at worst equal, but inferior?
After being spanked by Pierce at RG 1994, Serena wouldn't be a new experience. It would be a familiar one.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
With Serena it isn't always her power, but how she places her shots. Seriously her placement, especially on topspin shots, is severely underrated. Almost the same as her serve as far as placement and control being more important than speed.
This.
Her angles on FH are what makes it ridiculous, more than the power.
And her placement and disguise on serve is Federerlike. She just happens to hit it pretty hard as well. :lol:
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THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Nothing in my post makes a connection between generational success and strength, so your reply is addressing something never said at all. The argument is about the individual state of an athlete, and in Serena's case, she has been routinely cited as one of the strongest--if not the most physically powerful woman ever to play the game.
Few have ever said this about Pierce, so your:
...remains incorrect on the first part, but unwilling to admit the last, which the only true part of your comment.
Serena did not turn pro until the fall of 1995. When Williams and Pierce met at the 2002 French Open, Serena wiped the clay courts with her with a telling 6-1 6-1 score (results similar to...) If you cannot move your facts and matches into the realm of reality, no one will take you seriously.
EDIT: Oh.... I see this gennosuke has been banned. Good work, mods. I cannot be sure, but he seemed to be yet another alternate account of one of the regualar TW Serena haters.
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