DropShotArtist
Banned
You're assuming that missing those slams were due to "injuries". There is no hard evidence that his "playing style" should dramatically reduce his court time. Genetics is a much bigger factor likely.
Cristophe Rochus: Doping rampant, mentions Nadal and Soderling
- Thread starter President
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You're assuming that missing those slams were due to "injuries". There is no hard evidence that his "playing style" should dramatically reduce his court time. Genetics is a much bigger factor likely.
rainingaces
Legend
I think berd is a natural talent right from a early age he could hit a big ball. If he is on something it has not made him consistant when and where it matters. His quads might be big but his biceps are not, neither is his neck.
Crisstti
Legend
Basically, lol.
Wasn't this the same guy claiming some guy he played against was doping because he came back against him and got a bloody nose?.
If Del Potro is using some sort of performance enhancer, then I sure don't know what for. He's one of the least muscular guys on tour and his fitness and ability to recover from one match to the next is middling. Sure, he hits big, but he's got a lot of leverage with that stature. Not to say I wouldn't be surprised if he was doping because I wouldn't be surprised if any top tennis player was doping, but he's certainly not one of the most likely candidates, I would think. And also, Del Potro didn't have a dramatic breakthrough in quite the same way that Berdych or Soderling did. They were both established tennis players who for years had been in the top 50 to top 20 range and then made a slam final and established themselves firmly in the top 10. Del Potro was still very young when he won his slam and made a very visible progression into the top ten in the year leading up to that.
rainingaces
Legend
Federer wouldnt do anything that could be made to stick. If you take hgh or a boost of something your body produces naturally and a masking agent just before a match the odds of getting caught are not high and like you said it would be in the atps interest to make it internal. Also it would have to be proven beyond doubt using more then one sample and if he plays along match, drinks alot of water ect the level will drop in his blood.
President
Legend
My point wasn't that Del Potro or Berdych are the most obvious dopers (they aren't) but that they are not above suspicion. If so many players are indeed doping, do you really think non doped athletes could be competitive with them? Del Potro's fitness isn't amazing but maybe it would be much worse without PEDs. I remember earlier in his career it was absolutely terrible, now he can go 5 sets with Ferrer and Federer on clay!
Mustard
Bionic Poster
We don't know. You're right, plea bargaining corrupts the process.
But another 'fact', as you say, is that he was doping and is publicly admitting it.
Whether treated as guilty or not, as you say again, he was doping.
Mustard, you're admired by many here, including myself, but to quote someone else in another thread, you're splitting a hair into four here etc. You're trying to change the goal posts now that he's admitted it himself, to a goal regarding corruption and plea bargaining. Please, for your good name. Stop
How am I changing the goalposts? It was always my point that Armstrong never tested positive according to the rules of cycling, that he refused all of the USADA's plea bargains up to the point when Armstrong said that he was "finished with this nonsense", and that the USADA threw the whole book at Armstrong for that reason. It's about the corruption of the system. Armstrong admitting doping to Oprah doesn't change all of this, that plea bargains rule. Even now, we don't know for sure if Armstrong's confession is genuine or a plea bargain to cut his losses.
All these people who are ostracising and demonising Armstrong, what have they to say about the USADA trying to plea bargain Armstrong in the past so that he could keep his first 5 Tour de France titles?
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nikdom
Guest
DRII's hypocrisy
Here is DRII poo-poohing a pro player's comments on doping by questioning his motives...
And here is DRII in the Marion Bartoli thread, lecturing me how the fit WTA players aren't simply using protein shakes, when I said " (Fit) Athletes do supplement. It's called a protein shake..." (speaking about Bartoli's seemingly bad nutrition)
The hypocrisy of Nadal fans is staggering
Here is DRII poo-poohing a pro player's comments on doping by questioning his motives...
And here is DRII in the Marion Bartoli thread, lecturing me how the fit WTA players aren't simply using protein shakes, when I said " (Fit) Athletes do supplement. It's called a protein shake..." (speaking about Bartoli's seemingly bad nutrition)
The hypocrisy of Nadal fans is staggering
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Well, I can agree with all that.
The Bawss
Banned
There is no hope for you. It's like a religion. You can't have a rational argument with any person with such "faith". Also just so you know, as far as tennis players go, Muster is also a prime suspect for using PEDs.
Candide
Hall of Fame
That's quite a smackdown. Ouch.
DeShaun
Banned
His legs look freakishly huge in person. I mean, remember the film "Popeye" starring Robin Williams and how exaggerated his forearms were made out to be in costume...that's how big Lance's quads looked at one point. I mean, not just ridiculously cut and chiseled from marble, but objectively huge looking.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
There is no evidence whatsoever. Same with Nadal. What we do know is that Nadal beat a player who tested positive after a French Open final.
President
Legend
So the great **** is so good that he can outlast a doper who was creaming everyone else on the most physical surface? :-? I guess he is just a natural physical beast.
Just like it was libel when people accused Armstrong of PEDs before.
It was literally libel, they got sued and had to pay him money as awarded by courts and and everything. And yet they were right; at this point it's clear beyond a reasonable doubt that Armstrong doped heavily and seriously.
I think it's pretty clear that nobody in any sport is going to be above suspicion now, which is sad but true.
Amelie Mauresmo
Banned
I think Rochus may have a point, look at someone like David Ferrer apparently the guy smokes a lot of cigarettes like a pack a day or something.
Ferrer runs around the court like a jack rabbit and he never gets tired which I find hard to believe. Sure, Ferrer is in great shape but I can see him being involved in blood doping or using some kind of EPO or the clear. Ferrer's incredible super human endurance just like Nadal is suspect.
And for those people defending Nadal, remember Andre Agassi got caught with drugs in his system but the ATP Tour swept it under the rug.
Why are some tennis fans so ignorant, that they think the ATP would not protect their stars? I wouldn't be surprised if Nadal is on a silent ban or something.
The ATP definitely gives their super stars better treatment than the lower ranked players.
I don't know why tennis fans think pro tennis players are exempt from cheating. James Blake also said he believes some tennis players are doping and I believe him.
For tennis, players can dope probably at the grand slams, as Tyler Hamilton said it is very easy to use EPO, and blood doping and get away with it.
However, Ferrer has incredible endurance, do you know how easy it would be for him to be involved in blood doping. Also, in a lot of the Lance Armstrong articles, I heard a European doctor I think either a Spaniard or Italian who is involved who was connected to Ferrer and Sara Errani.
Ferrer runs around the court like a jack rabbit and he never gets tired which I find hard to believe. Sure, Ferrer is in great shape but I can see him being involved in blood doping or using some kind of EPO or the clear. Ferrer's incredible super human endurance just like Nadal is suspect.
And for those people defending Nadal, remember Andre Agassi got caught with drugs in his system but the ATP Tour swept it under the rug.
Why are some tennis fans so ignorant, that they think the ATP would not protect their stars? I wouldn't be surprised if Nadal is on a silent ban or something.
The ATP definitely gives their super stars better treatment than the lower ranked players.
I don't know why tennis fans think pro tennis players are exempt from cheating. James Blake also said he believes some tennis players are doping and I believe him.
For tennis, players can dope probably at the grand slams, as Tyler Hamilton said it is very easy to use EPO, and blood doping and get away with it.
However, Ferrer has incredible endurance, do you know how easy it would be for him to be involved in blood doping. Also, in a lot of the Lance Armstrong articles, I heard a European doctor I think either a Spaniard or Italian who is involved who was connected to Ferrer and Sara Errani.
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DRII
G.O.A.T.
As usual you make no damn sense!
WTH are you talking about
That thread, which you chauvinistically started, was about how you felt some WTA players were not fit and did not take personal responsibility for their health because they don't look like the male models you have pinned on your wall :twisted:
To which I replied you shouldn't judge bodies (particularly female bodies) against a aesthetic stereotype of fitness (i.e. six pack/ripped/etc) and that obviously Bartoli is fit since she's a world class player in a world wide sport (an accomplishment you will most likely never match)!
and regarding Serena and Stossur; I said most fit women could not get their type of bodies without serious supplementation and that Serena and Stossur are more or less genetic anomalies in that regard.
So how in the hell you think thats hypocrisy; I have no idea
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nikdom
Guest
As usual you make no damn sense!
WTH are you talking about
Don't kid yourself. You can suggest players like Serena and Stosur did not get their bodies without serious "supplementation" - even going beyond calling it "not protein shakes" - in other words, that they're doping, but accuse Rochus of saying the same thing to discredit him?
You're fooling no one. Your hypocrisy is evident - you can say players are doping when it's convenient to your argument and change it when your idol seems to be implicated by the same logic.
There are moments of productive discussion, but as the only actual productive thing is for there to be more testing, which is outwith our control, all threads on doping go over the exact same ground and quickly descend into bickering and an excuse to bash players you don't like, especially the ones that beat your favourite.
I'm in favour of more widespread and better testing, but until that happens, these threads will continue to be mainly about rumour mongering and conspiracy theories mixed with some sour grapes, especially if mods allow players' names to be given, or hinted at, frequently with no better reason than them being good at tennis, or "they're all at it".
Speranza
Hall of Fame
So the fact that he didn't prove positive according to their drug tests overrides the importance of him actually admitting to it? I just want to check that point with you.
Re. USADA and plea bargaining, that is another argument IMO, and I agree with you on it.
Doublebounce
Professional
Rochus bros are hardworkers. I have always respected them. I do believe Christophe when he says that the ATP sent him a letter to keep his mouth shut about it, I'm sure there have been plenty of incidents where the ATP covers up a player who has tested postiive for PEDs. Happened to Agassi with cocaine, so why not steroids?
Mainad
Bionic Poster
What's with this "when"? Why is Murray any more likely to be using than any of the other top players??
rainingaces
Legend
There was a rumour going around the mens dressing room a few weeks back now that apparently additives in lindor chocolate truffles make you hyper. Now im not 100% sure on that but it makes you wonder.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
If Armstrong is guilty, then he's guilty, and deserves to be punished for it. However, with a system based on plea bargains, which corrupts the whole process, a safe conviction just isn't possible in my opinion. As I said before, we don't know if Armstrong's confession is genuine or him cutting his losses under plea bargaining. The dossier used to ban Armstrong only had circumstantial evidence, mostly from plea bargained cyclists/witnesses.
marc45
G.O.A.T.
where's the letter?
rainingaces
Legend
What's with this "when"? Why is Murray any more likely to be using than any of the other top players??
Dont be so nieve, he has a fitness team that get paid to cover all the bases and leave no stone unturned. Murray went from skinny wimp that couldnt go four sets to sixpack and one of the fittest players on the tour.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
The ATP would be dumb as hell to do that. What's to stop Christophe Rochus, or any other player, going public with it?
Gonzalito17
Banned
Fascinating interview thanks for sharing.
marc45
G.O.A.T.
that's what i just said above...written letter?...where is it?...no reason to hide it now...did he throw it away?...e-mail?..did he keep it in a file?...and horrible journalism by radio twizz if they didn't follow up with that exact question.."do you have that letter christophe?"
sure, let's hear from the atp
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DRII
G.O.A.T.
Your comprehension is horrible!
Did you miss the whole genetic anomaly thing
Reread the damn quote!
Most women, no matter how fit, would never naturally look like Serena or Stossur (right now). They're genetically anomalies as in gifted, blessed when it comes to strength/muscle tone and most especially muscle mass.
Why is that so hard for you to understand
No wonder you're naive enough to believe that most women on the WTA are lazy cows; if you expect them to look like Serena/Stossur...
Towser83
G.O.A.T.
well he did go5 sets with Federer on clay back in 2009 as well
So the plea bargain was, confess... on OPRAH?? Interesting plea bargain, I had expected them to require an official confession not one on a chat show
Speranza
Hall of Fame
Well I agree that he should have been stripped of his titles, hence punished.
What would be the point of him plea bargaining with this admission now? He's already lost those titles.
Don't get me wrong Mustard, I see where you're coming from with the fact that his colleagues seemed to have sold him out for their own benefits, and that is arguably worse. In this scenario, it seems no one is innocent of something - him, his colleagues, and the governing body.
It's quite depressing in some ways.
L
Laurie
Guest
Thanks for posting this.
It is quite clear that when Mark Miles was in charge of the ATP, things were covered up as Agassi has proved.
What is interesting is whether things have moved on since that period of the early noughties or whether the ATP / ITF obsession in slowing the game down will ultimately backfire as some matches now go on forever and players feel they need to recover quicker. All just speculation and accusations but at the same time something doesn't seem quite right about today's game.
marc45
G.O.A.T.
one other thing, conspiracy the other way from what nadal-haters like..radio twizz is in belgium but very much a french station and we all know how a lot of french feel about nadal...just sent twizz an e-mail asking if they asked rochus if he has that letter and if they got a new follow-up from atp
marc45
G.O.A.T.
fair enough, agassi's use certainly wasn't performance-enhancing so they may have rationalized it that way, but still wrong
"doesn't seem quite right"...idk, what's right?
Relinquis
Hall of Fame
Christophe raises some serious questions. I do tend to think that a lot of tennis players are doping, but i doublt that i could tell which for sure. What do we know for sure?
- Several players have brought attention to doping in tennis, saying that it is a problem.
- ATP has covered up drug use (the Agassi issue)
- Some players were caught out (e.g. the Argentinians: Chela, Coria)
There is a lot of money riding on these players and keeping up the brands that major corporations and advertisers have invested in. I would love to see more testing and a fairer, more transparent system in place even if it meant that one of my favourite players turns out to be a user, but i have little faith in this happening. The best we can hope for is rules that make tennis more skill/talent oriented rather than entirely about stamina, height, recovery time and physical strength (the stuff drugs influence more easily).
I'm not interested in speculating on, or rumours about, which players are doping, because considering how tribal most people are about their avatars/heroes, it won't enlighten us in most cases.
I don't agree with Christophe that it should be legalised and accepted. I want to see real human beings compete and inspire us, not juiced up science projects. I might as well watch formula one where it's more about technology than the driver; i prefer karting.
- Several players have brought attention to doping in tennis, saying that it is a problem.
- ATP has covered up drug use (the Agassi issue)
- Some players were caught out (e.g. the Argentinians: Chela, Coria)
There is a lot of money riding on these players and keeping up the brands that major corporations and advertisers have invested in. I would love to see more testing and a fairer, more transparent system in place even if it meant that one of my favourite players turns out to be a user, but i have little faith in this happening. The best we can hope for is rules that make tennis more skill/talent oriented rather than entirely about stamina, height, recovery time and physical strength (the stuff drugs influence more easily).
I'm not interested in speculating on, or rumours about, which players are doping, because considering how tribal most people are about their avatars/heroes, it won't enlighten us in most cases.
I don't agree with Christophe that it should be legalised and accepted. I want to see real human beings compete and inspire us, not juiced up science projects. I might as well watch formula one where it's more about technology than the driver; i prefer karting.
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vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
We don't know. You're right, plea bargaining corrupts the process.
But another 'fact', as you say, is that he was doping and is publicly admitting it.
Whether treated as guilty or not, as you say again, he was doping.
Mustard, you're admired by many here, including myself, but to quote someone else in another thread, you're splitting a hair into four here etc. You're trying to change the goal posts now that he's admitted it himself, to a goal regarding corruption and plea bargaining. Please, for your good name. Stop
It matters not that the governing body are corrupt, as I'm sure most sports governing bodies are guilty of at some stage - heck, as most people are at some stage in their lives. The point is, even if others were doing so (and it's sickening that one particular is making money from admitting it), Lance Armstrong was doping.
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NadalDramaQueen
Guest
That's the genius of it.
Mustard, I was with you at the beginning, but it seems pretty clear now that Armstrong is guilty.
Amelie Mauresmo
Banned
Actually Tyler Hamilton said Armstrong DID fail a doping test and it was swept under the rug. All Armstrong had to do was donate some cash and his problems disappeared. Armstrong is not going down in flames alone when that Oprah interview airs on Thursday he is taking down a lot of people with him.
Speranza
Hall of Fame
Sid_Vicious
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, I kinda wanna know more about that. If Rochus brothers were contemplating using the growth hormone as grown men, with the epiphyseal plates in their bones completely calcified, taking growth hormone would not do anything for their heights.
President
Legend
President
Legend
They were probably talking about when they were younger.
vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
LOL
Did Cesc Fabregas write on that appl- sorry, banana?
it's said cesc tatooed 'for sure i wasn't 100%, no ?' on multiple parts of his body (and also 'rosol doesn't exist' on his left buttock, and 'now wasn't the right moment' on the right one).
by the way, about the banana pic, i'm starting to wonder if it's not related to the following one:
EDIT
sorry i was a bit slow, i just got it !it's an banana, of course...
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heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Incorrect. Lance's teammates went on 60 minutes. One was an eye witness and they used the same refrigerator. C. Rochus offers nothing. Not a shred of evidence.
You're just paranoid. Lots of players are above suspicion to most fans. Like Federer.
Don't let a sour player slime our sport merely by mentioning Lance Armstrong.
You're just paranoid. Lots of players are above suspicion to most fans. Like Federer.
Don't let a sour player slime our sport merely by mentioning Lance Armstrong.
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Sid_Vicious
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, but I doubt HGH therapy would have helped Rochus gain 6 inches.
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