There could be one more question. What kind of serve is it?Something interesting. Here is another image posted today in another section of the board (for quite different reasons, I assure you). Do you think this is before or after contact?
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question about ball toss for kick serve
- Thread starter treblings
- Start date
What kind is it?
arche3
Banned
I've seen pics of dojoker where its before contact on the fh and he is looking no where near the ball. Lol. Even djoko is not goat like the fed!
arche3
Banned
Flat? Due to height of contact. And full extention of arm. And chest facing forward. But its still a guess....
IMO it is slice. Ball is on right side of player and racquet long axis is almost vertical. But, also can be flat, especially with women.
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arche3
Banned
Ha... that was the first thing I saw. Her nice body. I don't fancy her nose though... if I'm being picky.
IMO it is slice. Ball is on right side of player and racquet long axis is almost vertical. But, also can be flat, especially with women.
I don't think it is a slice.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
It looks nothing like slice..lol
Yes, I forgot she is short and hits downward. The ball’s trajectory between contact and net should be the shortest, otherwise gravity brings the ball below net’s cord. So, this should be flat serve.
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
In video “A Consistent Toss FYB Rafter Serve” Rafter says that ball should land on the racquet to his right, see picture below, but in his real serves ball could land to his left only.
There is no correlation between his explanation about “Consistent Toss” and his real action.
IMO there is big problem with ATP players. They began playing tennis around 5 years old and they learned that as monkey. Monkey see, monkey do. Usually monkey cannot explain anything clearly, but can show that.
That’s why I prefer watching videos due to they can produce real unquestionable facts.
So Pat was explaining how to develop control over the toss, not where he actually puts it over his head when he's serving.
Why cannot we develop control over the real toss and should learn unrealistic one? This is really very strange teaching approach, but maybe Pat is right? Thanks.
Yes, I forgot she is short and hits downward. The ball’s trajectory between contact and net should be the shortest, otherwise gravity brings the ball below net’s cord. So, this should be flat serve.
I don't see how the conclusion was based on your shortest path logic. The shortest path doesn't apply here - it would be a straight line from the impact to the net tip, and we know it is a parabola. If you are talking about the net plane, the shortest path would be a horizontal line, again not feasible.
It is flat because she has pronated and hitting it with the face fully facing the ball.
He is saying that no one can completely control the toss. WTA players can't, and neither can we, and even ATP pros have difficulty in sun and wind. He is saying do the best you can, and then adjust. Nothing unrealistic about it.
Edit: I see what you mean. You are saying he is giving the old advice of tossing it towards the court and measuring consistency with the racket on the ground, but he actually tosses it more over his head? That is an old topic - the J shaped toss of the modern game which contradicts the teaching. So that is what you meant by unrealistic.
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Relinquis
Hall of Fame
the women you posted looks like she's hitting a kick serve out wide... it's after contact so her arm is extending through and her body has turned to face the court more... without actually seeing the video you can't tell for sure.. for all we know it was a mishit that ended in the net...
anyway, as to the hitting up matter. it is a mental cue to accelerate into contact and maintain momentum rather than trying to force a flatter path for the swing thus muscling the ball.. its' related to the "serve faster, not harder" thread that i started a day or two ago... it was deleted because of posters bickering i assume...
Loot at the video of raonic serving.. you see this rotation up into contact... he doesn't flatten the path of the racquet. doesn't "hit down" whether he makes contact with the racquet face perpendicular or slightly closed, it doesn't matter. it's the feel of throwing the stick up into contact that matters.
Just my opinion... note disclaimer.
anyway, as to the hitting up matter. it is a mental cue to accelerate into contact and maintain momentum rather than trying to force a flatter path for the swing thus muscling the ball.. its' related to the "serve faster, not harder" thread that i started a day or two ago... it was deleted because of posters bickering i assume...
Loot at the video of raonic serving.. you see this rotation up into contact... he doesn't flatten the path of the racquet. doesn't "hit down" whether he makes contact with the racquet face perpendicular or slightly closed, it doesn't matter. it's the feel of throwing the stick up into contact that matters.
Just my opinion... note disclaimer.
If she imparts sidespin the path would be 3D line and it would be longer than 2D parabola.
Here are examples of flat and slice serves.
Both show solid arm pronation and “the face fully facing the ball” (“facing the ball” - one more strange tennis term).
The flat serve directed the ball dawn the T, the slice serve hits ball to the left corner.
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If it was a kick serve, I think the racket would be more right of the ball than shown.
And yes, how it is hit does not matter wrt the feel of throwing the stick up. It is more of a pedantic interest.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
Raftered one of my best serves in a long time tonight against a falling 4.0. Deuce side, bit the inside corner, kicked off a little to the side and stuck in the fence. Felt super clean. He called it out
treblings
Hall of Fame
Raftered one of my best serves in a long time tonight against a falling 4.0. Deuce side, bit the inside corner, kicked off a little to the side and stuck in the fence. Felt super clean. He called it out
shot happens
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
There's no one-size-fits-all approach to teaching tennis, and if this doesn't do the trick for you then try something else. But a tiered approach, where you break a shot into segments and often do some things that won't make it into the final version, is a tried-and-true approach to learning not just tennis, but all sorts of stuff.
mightyrick
Legend
Agree, Will. Love your stuff... but as always... make sure to not break stuff down too much. ;-)
BTW... you are much better these days about that... so you've definitely learned a lot. But man... some of those older videos... whew!
"Ok folks, now in Step 42 of the running forehand progressions... you want to ensure that the index knuckle is perpendicular to the net strap..."
All in fun, man.
Some of the smarter of us learn to open our ideas as we age.
Some of the pig headed of us, like me, tend to close our horizons.
But I've seen 60 year old totally non athletic FAT guys hit 6' high kicking twist serves.
I've also seen Milos hitting 6' high kick serves.
Don't think I've EVER seen anyone kick it 7' high at the baseline, and certainly NEVER at the backboard.
Some of the pig headed of us, like me, tend to close our horizons.
But I've seen 60 year old totally non athletic FAT guys hit 6' high kicking twist serves.
I've also seen Milos hitting 6' high kick serves.
Don't think I've EVER seen anyone kick it 7' high at the baseline, and certainly NEVER at the backboard.
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Agree, Will. Love your stuff... but as always... make sure to not break stuff down too much. ;-)
BTW... you are much better these days about that... so you've definitely learned a lot. But man... some of those older videos... whew!
"Ok folks, now in Step 42 of the running forehand progressions... you want to ensure that the index knuckle is perpendicular to the net strap..."
All in fun, man.
Dude, that was step 47!
I definitely got caught up more in the minutia in the past more than I do now. Always trying to improve, and keeping things simple is a big part of that.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Toly, that is a great way to display the serve.
It does not appear that there is a frame showing ball impact. Impact was between 11 & 12. Maybe the video was only at 120 fps? or 240 fps? The background drops a little in the video, hand held video camera, or cropping in the processing?
Very poor image for this but I believe that the name on the ball is just barely visible as it is falling. It looks from the composite image as if the ball print - just a faint darker blur - might rotate about 90° in 4 frames after it is struck mostly in a horizontal direction - not much top spin. Toly, maybe you can see the ball logo better on the original video. ?
Slice. ?
If 240 fps and 90° in 4 frames
90°/ (1/60 sec) = 5400°/ sec.
If 120 fps and 90° in 4 frames
90° / (1/30 sec) = 2700°/ sec
Of course, the way to do it would be with a higher frame rate close up that would show several frames while the ball is in contact with the strings. If the ball were in contact for 4 milliseconds, say, 1000 fps or more.
It does not appear that there is a frame showing ball impact. Impact was between 11 & 12. Maybe the video was only at 120 fps? or 240 fps? The background drops a little in the video, hand held video camera, or cropping in the processing?
Very poor image for this but I believe that the name on the ball is just barely visible as it is falling. It looks from the composite image as if the ball print - just a faint darker blur - might rotate about 90° in 4 frames after it is struck mostly in a horizontal direction - not much top spin. Toly, maybe you can see the ball logo better on the original video. ?
Slice. ?
If 240 fps and 90° in 4 frames
90°/ (1/60 sec) = 5400°/ sec.
If 120 fps and 90° in 4 frames
90° / (1/30 sec) = 2700°/ sec
Of course, the way to do it would be with a higher frame rate close up that would show several frames while the ball is in contact with the strings. If the ball were in contact for 4 milliseconds, say, 1000 fps or more.
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Chas Tennis, you are correct.
What kind of serve is that?
The pictures were copied from public tennisplayer.net video - A New Teaching System http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/teaching_system_serve/index.html
What kind of serve is that?
The pictures were copied from public tennisplayer.net video - A New Teaching System http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/teaching_system_serve/index.html
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arche3
Banned
Fight the power!
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
This video shows how far behind the head the toss should land:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4Qgs0qP3O-o#t=302s
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Serve Analysis
I don't know the type of serve that was hit when I see serve videos.
For your video, the camera was hand held or the frames have been cropped differently. You can see this by looking at the signs on the stands, they move in the frame. Use objects behind the racket as references since the camera pointing angle is changing or the cropping is different. Did you make your composite image by moving things around to overlay frames?
It looks as if the ball is struck and moves probably first in frame #6 and certainly by frame #7. If you look at the top edge of the racket frame, it reaches a step in the stands at the highest point. The head of the racket seems to be at that same peak height for frames 5 & 6, when the ball is struck, and it is definitely down by frame #7. I'd say that the racket face was probably not rising when it impacted the ball.
In your composite picture, after the ball is struck there are smudge marks that repeat every 6 frames as the ball rotates. It looks like two kinds of marks, a larger one and a smaller one. Those marks don't seem like any standard ball markings- was the ball marked with two different marks? If I compare ball marks from two frames, side-by-side, they appear to mostly be rotating horizontally. If the ball rotates one complete rotation in about 6 frames it is rotating about 60° between frames.
But we don't know the camera's frame rate. To get an idea of the frame rate, let's look at how a 2000 rpm ball serve would look to a 240 fps camera. For a typical serve rotation rate of 2000 rpm, the ball rotates 2000 rpm /60 sec/min or 33 revolutions per second (rps). If 240 fps high speed video the ball would rotate 33 rps / 240 fps or 0.14 rotation per frame. In about 7 frames, the ball would rotate one revolution. That is not far off the 6 frames that we see in your composite picture of the high speed video with unknown frame rate.
I'd have to look up Cross's information on the spin rates and the angle of the spin axis for each type of serve.
I'd say the spin is mostly horizontal and it has a higher spin rate, so it's probably a slice serve. Also, the general path of the racket is at a large angle to the ball's trajectory and I believe that also is the path of a slice serve. I can't tell what serve has been struck looking at videos and would always like some additional information to identify the serve, the bounce or curved trajectory, etc.
I believe that this is a slice serve because in the original video I can see that the spin on the ball is horizontal and the ball curves and bounces as a slice should.
https://vimeo.com/27528347
Each serve type just depends on a few milliseconds of racket string impact over a few centimeters of contact and the racket string direction and other details. With 240 fps the frame rate is not enough for observing as impact can only appear on one frame, occasionally possibly two. 420 fps is better. But >1000 fps is needed. See some replies on frame rates in the 11 to 5 Rafter thread. There is also the issue of the strings stretching and applying spin to the ball. To see this string action requires frame rates of a few thousand frames per second.
Your composite picture might be easier to view if just the frame before impact, at impact and after impact were displayed, 3 frames only. Or maybe 5 frames. ? This would show the direction of the racket strings at impact. I'd use something in the background to do any aligning.
Chas Tennis, you are correct.
What kind of serve is that?
The pictures were copied from public tennisplayer.net video - A New Teaching System http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/teaching_system_serve/index.html
I don't know the type of serve that was hit when I see serve videos.
For your video, the camera was hand held or the frames have been cropped differently. You can see this by looking at the signs on the stands, they move in the frame. Use objects behind the racket as references since the camera pointing angle is changing or the cropping is different. Did you make your composite image by moving things around to overlay frames?
It looks as if the ball is struck and moves probably first in frame #6 and certainly by frame #7. If you look at the top edge of the racket frame, it reaches a step in the stands at the highest point. The head of the racket seems to be at that same peak height for frames 5 & 6, when the ball is struck, and it is definitely down by frame #7. I'd say that the racket face was probably not rising when it impacted the ball.
In your composite picture, after the ball is struck there are smudge marks that repeat every 6 frames as the ball rotates. It looks like two kinds of marks, a larger one and a smaller one. Those marks don't seem like any standard ball markings- was the ball marked with two different marks? If I compare ball marks from two frames, side-by-side, they appear to mostly be rotating horizontally. If the ball rotates one complete rotation in about 6 frames it is rotating about 60° between frames.
But we don't know the camera's frame rate. To get an idea of the frame rate, let's look at how a 2000 rpm ball serve would look to a 240 fps camera. For a typical serve rotation rate of 2000 rpm, the ball rotates 2000 rpm /60 sec/min or 33 revolutions per second (rps). If 240 fps high speed video the ball would rotate 33 rps / 240 fps or 0.14 rotation per frame. In about 7 frames, the ball would rotate one revolution. That is not far off the 6 frames that we see in your composite picture of the high speed video with unknown frame rate.
I'd have to look up Cross's information on the spin rates and the angle of the spin axis for each type of serve.
I'd say the spin is mostly horizontal and it has a higher spin rate, so it's probably a slice serve. Also, the general path of the racket is at a large angle to the ball's trajectory and I believe that also is the path of a slice serve. I can't tell what serve has been struck looking at videos and would always like some additional information to identify the serve, the bounce or curved trajectory, etc.
I believe that this is a slice serve because in the original video I can see that the spin on the ball is horizontal and the ball curves and bounces as a slice should.
https://vimeo.com/27528347
Each serve type just depends on a few milliseconds of racket string impact over a few centimeters of contact and the racket string direction and other details. With 240 fps the frame rate is not enough for observing as impact can only appear on one frame, occasionally possibly two. 420 fps is better. But >1000 fps is needed. See some replies on frame rates in the 11 to 5 Rafter thread. There is also the issue of the strings stretching and applying spin to the ball. To see this string action requires frame rates of a few thousand frames per second.
Your composite picture might be easier to view if just the frame before impact, at impact and after impact were displayed, 3 frames only. Or maybe 5 frames. ? This would show the direction of the racket strings at impact. I'd use something in the background to do any aligning.
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watungga
Professional
I have a tossing tip for kick serve. I can't do it consistently. It's very hard for my body.
After toss, the tossing arm straight and whose elbow-bicep is pointing to the sky at a point directly behind your back.
If you can do this, your body will follow suit whether your body likes it or not.
After toss, the tossing arm straight and whose elbow-bicep is pointing to the sky at a point directly behind your back.
If you can do this, your body will follow suit whether your body likes it or not.
There are Salazar spin serves pictures, copied from FYB videos.
The balls tosses are completely different.
1. Kick serve – contact point is above Salazar’s head.
2. Slice serve – contact point is above Salazar’s shoulder.
There are no identical tosses in pro tennis for different spin serves. :shock:
The balls tosses are completely different.
1. Kick serve – contact point is above Salazar’s head.
2. Slice serve – contact point is above Salazar’s shoulder.
There are no identical tosses in pro tennis for different spin serves. :shock:
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Very interesting. I think that my toss is much more straight up and down but I'll have to check it out.
It's too bad that placing a camera several feet above a 9-10 foot high serve impact is so difficult because that view shows a lot.
It's too bad that placing a camera several feet above a 9-10 foot high serve impact is so difficult because that view shows a lot.
So Toly does the toss absolutely dictate the serve type - or does it just exaggerate it..
Call me crazy but it seems possible to hit a very flat serve or a serve with some slice off the same toss.. But if you wanted to hit a real 'can opener' kinda slice you would need to toss it out wide..
Call me crazy but it seems possible to hit a very flat serve or a serve with some slice off the same toss.. But if you wanted to hit a real 'can opener' kinda slice you would need to toss it out wide..
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Rear view can clearly show if the ball is above the head or not.
Not completely. Side-to-side is shown but forward-backward is not. Above view gets side-to-side and forward-backward but not the height. Camera gets 2D where the lost axis is along the camera's line-of-sight.
There are hardly any HSV camera views of tennis strokes taken from above on the internet. I have not seen any except the FYB videos from a few years ago. I wonder what the set up was, cherry picker?
Videos from above might show what is going on with supination on the serve.
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If you want to hit pure/extreme topspin or slice serve you must use absolutely different tosses. Topspin toss should be to the left and slice to the right of your body. See idealized (not practical) pictures of serves below.
There are examples of Salazar (FYB videos) flat and slice serves. The tosses almost identical, except the ball is farther into court for flat serve.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
There's a lot of forward body movement in that serve, thanks!
Look how far forward his head moves, is it 3-4 feet. ?
When I apply a rule such as 'place the toss over your head for the kick serve' I have not been considering that I would move my body & head forward that much. I believe that my toss has been much more up and down.
I have missed the extent of the forward motion in looking at HSV videos but your before and after pictures makes it really stand out. Thanks a lot, Toly!
Another interesting characteristic to study on the serve!
Look how far forward his head moves, is it 3-4 feet. ?
When I apply a rule such as 'place the toss over your head for the kick serve' I have not been considering that I would move my body & head forward that much. I believe that my toss has been much more up and down.
I have missed the extent of the forward motion in looking at HSV videos but your before and after pictures makes it really stand out. Thanks a lot, Toly!
Another interesting characteristic to study on the serve!
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Federer's slice and kick serves
You are welcome.
Once again, different serves want different tosses. IMO there is no pro in the world who can hit different type of serves with identical tosses. In case of flat and slice serves at contact point ball should be on the right side of the player's body, and around of above a server’s head in case of topspin or kick serves.:shock:
The pictures were copied from public tennisplayer.net video - A New Teaching System http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/teaching_system_serve/index.html
You are welcome.
Once again, different serves want different tosses. IMO there is no pro in the world who can hit different type of serves with identical tosses. In case of flat and slice serves at contact point ball should be on the right side of the player's body, and around of above a server’s head in case of topspin or kick serves.:shock:
The pictures were copied from public tennisplayer.net video - A New Teaching System http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/teaching_system_serve/index.html
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