wannabe good
Rookie
Everybody should watch the video dominikk1985 linked - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWefL1JNiRE. Kuznetsova is technically the best WTA player since Henin.
Which current WTA forehand matches the ATP pattern best?
- Thread starter dominikk1985
- Start date
Everybody should watch the video dominikk1985 linked - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWefL1JNiRE. Kuznetsova is technically the best WTA player since Henin.
wannabe good
Rookie
The widespread usage of PED was common knowledge among large number of people in cycling and maybe in NFL. The same is just not true in tennis.
I do agree that bodies of women like Stosur and Serena appear unnatural, but Serena was extremely muscular from young age.
Also, I saw tennis action photos of my own prepubescent children, where even to me they looked unbelievably ripped, the way they don't look in nature or in normal, not-super slow motion, videos. And I know for a fact they are not doping (nor are they lifting weights, for that matter)
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T
TCF
Guest
The widespread usage of PED was common knowledge among large number of people in cycling and maybe in NFL. The same is just not true in tennis.
I do agree that bodies of women like Stosur and Serena appear unnatural, but Serena was extremely muscular from young age.
Also, I saw tennis action photos of my own prepubescent children, where even to me they looked unbelievably ripped, the way they don't look in nature or in normal, not-super slow motion, videos. And I know for a fact they are not doping (nor are they lifting weights, for that matter)
I know, people need to chill on throwing around accusations of PED use unless someone fails a drug test. We have a 9 year old girl in our group who is 5' tall and 95 lbs of solid muscle, and an 11 year old who is 4'5" and about 65 lbs. People come in all shapes and sizes and musculature.
Now when a little guy like Lenny Dykstra came back from the off season with 40 lbs. of muscle, a little different story!
Tennis does not have rigorous standards to prevent drug use. You can simply not answer the door if the drug tester comes by. Drug use is very beneficial for tennis players.
If you put those facts together - you will recognize that its very likely tennis has alot of PED users. I won't single out Stosur - because I'd wager that a significant portion of all the players use drugs. I'd lean just the opposite way - everyone is dirty unless proven otherwise. I do not think tennis players are stupid - and the amount of money to be made is very high. Just the recovery benefits alone would make some fast acting steroids a near must use for the athletes.
We saw the same kind of denial with Lance Armstrong. I and a lot of others wanted to believe that he was clean. After all he never failed a drug test - not even once. But he wasn't clean..
In tennis though - unlike cycling they just look the other way and want us to enjoy the show. That's cool - I don't steroids taken under a doctors supervision are that dangerous. So I don't mean to pick on Stosur. I like her. I just think she uses steroids - just like a lot of the other female players on tour.
If you put those facts together - you will recognize that its very likely tennis has alot of PED users. I won't single out Stosur - because I'd wager that a significant portion of all the players use drugs. I'd lean just the opposite way - everyone is dirty unless proven otherwise. I do not think tennis players are stupid - and the amount of money to be made is very high. Just the recovery benefits alone would make some fast acting steroids a near must use for the athletes.
We saw the same kind of denial with Lance Armstrong. I and a lot of others wanted to believe that he was clean. After all he never failed a drug test - not even once. But he wasn't clean..
In tennis though - unlike cycling they just look the other way and want us to enjoy the show. That's cool - I don't steroids taken under a doctors supervision are that dangerous. So I don't mean to pick on Stosur. I like her. I just think she uses steroids - just like a lot of the other female players on tour.
dominikk1985
Legend
I would not be surprised if stosur and serena take drugs but I would not be surprised either if someone like henin or errani took them.
many bulky guys are indeed on drugs but there have been plenty of small guys being caught too. I think the more more substances make you stronger without bulking up.
just look at those jamaican sprinters like bolt and blake. they don't look like ben johnson or justin gatlin but they have muscular but lanky bodies. I would still not bet on them being clean.
many bulky guys are indeed on drugs but there have been plenty of small guys being caught too. I think the more more substances make you stronger without bulking up.
just look at those jamaican sprinters like bolt and blake. they don't look like ben johnson or justin gatlin but they have muscular but lanky bodies. I would still not bet on them being clean.
^^HGH and steroids are really handy for recovery.
If you are an older player - you know how if you have a hard match you need a couple days off to really feel recovered? But you remember when you were young - you could just go out play - the go drinking - then wake up early in the morning and be fine? Steroids can give you that kind of recovery ability and they can be out of your system quick.
It's a game - where the drug users try to stay ahead of the detectors. They don't even look for actual steroids in the Olympics anymore they just flag you if you have an unnatural levels of various hormones. They need to do this - because otherwise the steroid doctors are hopelessly ahead.
The testing protocol in tennis is basically for show. They might catch someone who is exceptionally foolish in their regimen but anyone who has some serious help is going to be way ahead.
They caught one dude and he is basically persona non grata in the tennis world with regards to the other players because they fear he is 'snitching' on them. (He got his suspension halved). The good players don't have anything to fear.. They aren't going to nail Nadal or someone like that..
BTW it wasn't testing that got him caught - they caught him importing vials into Australia.. It's like Sly Stallone - caught with about a billion PEDs. Yeah working out won't make a 60 year old man looked like a million bucks - sorry Stallone fans.
If you are an older player - you know how if you have a hard match you need a couple days off to really feel recovered? But you remember when you were young - you could just go out play - the go drinking - then wake up early in the morning and be fine? Steroids can give you that kind of recovery ability and they can be out of your system quick.
It's a game - where the drug users try to stay ahead of the detectors. They don't even look for actual steroids in the Olympics anymore they just flag you if you have an unnatural levels of various hormones. They need to do this - because otherwise the steroid doctors are hopelessly ahead.
The testing protocol in tennis is basically for show. They might catch someone who is exceptionally foolish in their regimen but anyone who has some serious help is going to be way ahead.
They caught one dude and he is basically persona non grata in the tennis world with regards to the other players because they fear he is 'snitching' on them. (He got his suspension halved). The good players don't have anything to fear.. They aren't going to nail Nadal or someone like that..
BTW it wasn't testing that got him caught - they caught him importing vials into Australia.. It's like Sly Stallone - caught with about a billion PEDs. Yeah working out won't make a 60 year old man looked like a million bucks - sorry Stallone fans.
wannabe good
Rookie
How do you know this? You are now describing a subculture that I believe existed in cycling where, basically, everybody knew. I am under impression that the same subculture does not exist in tennis. One reason is because I trust (some) tennis journalists. Are you saying you know more than the journalist who follow the tour 24/7? Or are you saying they are corrupt?
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wannabe good
Rookie
Short backswing does not a ATP forehand make. Bouchard's is not an ATP forehand. She is using wrong muscles, bending as oppose to extending her knees and straightening her back.
It's ATP.. lMAO - using the wrong muscles. You would kill to have her forehand..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53p7xTQzdPw
Its pretty textbook.
L backswing - pat the dog position - racquet lagging behind hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUuj7AoOWpc
Same thing with Stan. Both use a bent arm - not a straight arm...but lots of men use bent arm on the tour..
Stan's is better - more racquet lag - but the basics are all there. Also her knee clearly straightens.. I don't know what videos you are looking at but Bouchard is well known for using an ATP style forehand..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53p7xTQzdPw
Its pretty textbook.
L backswing - pat the dog position - racquet lagging behind hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUuj7AoOWpc
Same thing with Stan. Both use a bent arm - not a straight arm...but lots of men use bent arm on the tour..
Stan's is better - more racquet lag - but the basics are all there. Also her knee clearly straightens.. I don't know what videos you are looking at but Bouchard is well known for using an ATP style forehand..
caugas
Semi-Pro
stans atp forehand is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more defined than the female canadian
caugas
Semi-Pro
i don't takle drugs............
dominikk1985
Legend
I think we should stay on topic and not dicuss drugs here
I think that bouchard actually has more of a WTA style FH in that video:
the racket is already "inside" (behind her back) before the hips have started to open.
If you go by the waters/macci definition of the ATP FH the racket should stay outside and lag back late when the hips start to open.
IMO it is kind of a hybrid. she starts with an outside setup like an ATP FH but then cocks back the wrist and moves the racket back before the hips start to open not really using the SSC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvLa3g9fwdg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x_mG5ymM4w
it is not as pronounced WTA like ivanovic or sharapova but also not pure ATP like Kuzzy or stosur.
wannabe good
Rookie
It's not about my forehand with me, it's about my juniors'.
If they grow up to have something like Bouchard's forehand, I will be bitterly disappointed and will burn their junior trophies.
Even today, on a rare occasion when they make a shot that resembles Bouchard's incorrect technique (when they are tight, lose their confidence and are afraid the ball is going to fly on them), they get thumbs down from the sidelines from me.
dominikk1985
Legend
it is a term that was invented by some coach (might have been heath waters but I'm not sure):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMqQ2ys71bw
wannabe good
Rookie
Speaking of Waters, in the videos of his that I saw some time ago, he is not emphasizing enough the whip - the player has to rotate his/her trunk, but - the rotation has to stop and the racket has to be allowed to whiz by.
wannabe good
Rookie
Yeah, whatever. Your players' forehands will end up either WTA style (95% of girls) or ATP style (100% of boys). You can't escape it no matter what terminology you use.
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Yeah for Bouchard she might have an inside to outside swing - which is wrong.. I looked at her from some other angles.
Most men have an outside to inside swing - which is the 'gold standard' according to McGraw..
For people who think that we are just making this stuff up..here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0WFvuMs8zo
I withdraw Genie from consideration.. I was swayed by her looks haha.
I say Li Na..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPfv9qjAAeY
Racquet does not go behind body. Seems to start on the outside - finish more on the inside. L backswing - some lag..
Most men have an outside to inside swing - which is the 'gold standard' according to McGraw..
For people who think that we are just making this stuff up..here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0WFvuMs8zo
I withdraw Genie from consideration.. I was swayed by her looks haha.
I say Li Na..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPfv9qjAAeY
Racquet does not go behind body. Seems to start on the outside - finish more on the inside. L backswing - some lag..
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Cheetah
Hall of Fame
No, most men have an inside out swing, not the other way around. They start the forward swing with the hand closer to the body and when they make contact the hand is further away from the body. that's inside out.
McGraw doesn't say anything about outside in or inside out. He just says keep the hand on the right side of the body.
Cheetah
Hall of Fame
i see you are referring to the finish in your description. usually when ppl talk about inside/out swings etc they are referring to the path the racquet takes to the ball and not including the finish. So the atp guys usually swing out to the ball. The hand follows a path away from the body which allows them to brush up as well as come through the ball.
The inside/out motion is what gives position #3 in the djoko side of this image where the racquet has already finished brushing , wrist is released etc while still on the right side of the body.
Wait? Are you quoting yourself? Huh?
I am using the McGraw terminology..here. He explains it in the video I linked. When you start with the racquet all the way behind you - that's an inside swing. When you start with the racquet extended away from you - that's an outside swing.
Macci says basically the same thing - the racquet never goes behind your body..
I don't see any real disagreement here - just some terminology issues. The swing path that goes from behind your body and around - is not an ATP swing path..
I am using the McGraw terminology..here. He explains it in the video I linked. When you start with the racquet all the way behind you - that's an inside swing. When you start with the racquet extended away from you - that's an outside swing.
Macci says basically the same thing - the racquet never goes behind your body..
I don't see any real disagreement here - just some terminology issues. The swing path that goes from behind your body and around - is not an ATP swing path..
dominikk1985
Legend
I think you are talking about different things. the swing is going to be inside out but guyclinch is talking about the backswing/transition phase.
with both techniques the racket is eventually going "behind" the body, but with the "ATP" FH the racket is pointing the other way until the hands starts moving forward which means the racket will lag in the last second increasing the stretch in the arm.
Li Na is very close. She has the forehand of someone who is trying to do a modern forehand, but doesn't quite get the finer details. Her racket flips from the 'pat the dog' position to the laid back position while she is still in the back swing. A modern forehand is when the racket flips (and dips) as a natural result of 'pulling' the hand forward in a linear motion. I could fix that for her in about 10 minutes.
What I meant by 'behind' is that the if you were looking from the front and the racquet would go behind the person and stick out such that you see the racquet head come out the other side..
(The racquet still has to go 'behind' the person in that its gets further back then the body if you were looking at them from the side..obviously all styles do this)
Li Na is a good example because she doesn't do this on the forehand but does a bit on her backhand.
Watch this video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlmL0H1MxC8
You can really see how the hitting arm extends away from the body and then she basically brings the racquet forward by pulling it with the buttcap..
But watch how close she gets on the backhand its like the racquet starts forward when its almost close to her butt.
I don't claim to be some expert on this stuff - this is just what I learned from McGraw and Macci..
I think way to much is made of the whole 'pat the dog' thing BTW - since you pass through that point really quickly.. its not really a static position..
Also I do agree that her racquet doesn't seem to 'flip' as violently as the guys do - its a bit more forced but its still the correct 'swing line' as they say..
Spin Doctor
Professional
How is Bouchard's technique incorrect? I will grant that her strokes are unconventional and a bit ugly, but how would you say they are "incorrect"? Her coach Nick Saviano is known for his knowledge of technical details and has coached Bouchard since a young age.
Cheetah
Hall of Fame
Yes I agree - terminology differences.
The racquet does sometimes go behind the body (atp) but the hand and handle stay on the right side. McGraw says 'outside' but not 'inside out'. And, he does the know and use 'inside out / outside in' terminology because in a serve video of his he describes an inside-out serve takeback whereby the racquet/handle starts close to the body and during the takeback goes out and away from the body and he calls it an 'inside out' takeback and states you shouldn't use an 'outside in' path for the serve.
Video
It would be good to provide a video/link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRTxR2Wv9FE
is one possible target for a discussion of her forehands
It would be good to provide a video/link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRTxR2Wv9FE
is one possible target for a discussion of her forehands
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dominikk1985
Legend
here are slow motion vids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvLa3g9fwdg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x_mG5ymM4w
Decent forehand flip in the second video
A very decent forehand flip in the second video
A very decent forehand flip in the second video
dominikk1985
Legend
kuznetsova today went out in the first round against marina erakovic in 3 tight sets.
I think erakovic might also fit the ATP FH description ( I don't have a video).
I think erakovic might also fit the ATP FH description ( I don't have a video).
ForehandReverb
New User
Quite a few have this ATP forehand. Kuznetsova, Hercog, Safarova, Rybarikova, Stosur, McHale, Erakovic, Schiavone, Flipkens, Shvedova, Na Li, Larsson and probably others.
Spin Doctor
Professional
These are just videos of her playing (one narrated in Italian???). Still not seeing an explanation of how her strokes are technically incorrect.
I did NOT say that her strokes are technically incorrect
I did NOT say that her strokes are technically incorrect
Just for the record:
I did NOT say that her strokes are technically incorrect
ARKustom93
Professional
Think, he's referring to #64 ...
Correct?
The point was a bit deeper.
The post number 64 did not define "incorrect".
If the author of post 64 would NOT define "incorrect" there is no discussion/conversation.
There are two possible aspects-horizontal/how far back and "vertical"
The point was a bit deeper.
The post number 64 did not define "incorrect".
If the author of post 64 would NOT define "incorrect" there is no discussion/conversation.
There are two possible aspects-horizontal/how far back and "vertical"
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ARKustom93
Professional
Yes, on all ...
Let us pray
Let us pray that the author of post 64 will respond.
From a point of view of a coach it is a complete waste of time to talk about something which is NOT defined,at least in broad terms.
Switching gears:
I put one comment in post #82.
I did NOT provide the definition of the phrase "flip".
It comes either from Macci or John Yandell.
Let us pray that the author of post 64 will respond.
From a point of view of a coach it is a complete waste of time to talk about something which is NOT defined,at least in broad terms.
Switching gears:
I put one comment in post #82.
I did NOT provide the definition of the phrase "flip".
It comes either from Macci or John Yandell.
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wannabe good
Rookie
What about "I know it when I see it"?
What do you think about this forehand: http://youtu.be/iyQlYW8WZXA?t=1m59s
Is there anything wrong with it?
Please specify a time stamp and a name of a player
Ivanovic?
Please specify a time stamp and a name of a player?
Ivanovic?
ARKustom93
Professional
Maybe, he'll be kind enough to provide a 'player example' to illustrate what constitutes 'correct' technique ...
Burden of proof
You are pushing "burden of proof" towards me.
It is not exactly fair.
You are pushing "burden of proof" towards me.
It is not exactly fair.
Examples
Stossur,Ribarikova and Li Na are considered to be good examples of female
modern forehand.
It should be a start of a conversation from the good end.
Stossur,Ribarikova and Li Na are considered to be good examples of female
modern forehand.
It should be a start of a conversation from the good end.
wannabe good
Rookie
I already formatted the link to point to the forehand I am asking about 1:59 into the video. The question is about that single forehand shot executed in the video in slow motion: http://youtu.be/iyQlYW8WZXA?t=1m59s Not how this player hits the shot in general but how is done this one time.
ARKustom93
Professional
Since he has done that, let me rephrase:
Just what specifically about Raonic and Jankovic's FH do you deem 'correct'??
ARKustom93
Professional
Correct ...
wannabe good
Rookie
No, Raonic's forehand I pointed at is not an example of well executed forehand. It has the same problem that Bouchard has almost always when she wants to hit with power.
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Bouchard and Stossur
Stossur's forehand is considered more powerful than Bouchard's
1:39 of the second link of Bouchard is probably the best to analyze because
she is the closest to a baseline at 1:39
The horizontal component very difficult to analyze because a camera perpendicular to a sideline.
The vertical component easier to analyze.
Switching gears:
However once more the statement "incorrect" requires some specifications.
Refusing to do so does not help the conversation
Going back to Bouchard
Stossur's forehand is considered more powerful than Bouchard's
1:39 of the second link of Bouchard is probably the best to analyze because
she is the closest to a baseline at 1:39
The horizontal component very difficult to analyze because a camera perpendicular to a sideline.
The vertical component easier to analyze.
Switching gears:
However once more the statement "incorrect" requires some specifications.
Refusing to do so does not help the conversation
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ARKustom93
Professional
Same thing, Julian is asking for, specifics, specifically in re to Jankovic's FH(unless you'd like to include head-level, inverse follow-through shots(Raonic's swing)).
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