ATP or WTA-style forehand better for rec players?

[stephan_58]

If you have no idea what I'm talking about watch this video first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

I know this topic's been discussed before but I couldn't get to a conclusion on whether it would be better for rec players to adopt a ATP-style forehand for more power and spin. I'm a 5'11'' 28 yo male, about 4.0 and my forehand is the main weapon in my game. Last week after a long time I taped myself hitting and for a while now I was wondering why I can't see much of a "snap" in my stroke. I do have a relaxed grip and get into the power position (buttcap first). Turned out I hit more of a WTA-style forehand with the racket-head on the other side of the body in the takeback and more of a "pulling-motion". Should I try to switch to an ATP-forehand or is the WTA-motion okay as well? How hard is the switch? As I said my forehand is my main weapon but I sometimes feel there could be more potential.

 

[Lukhas]

Is your forehand any good at your level of play? Does it make you win matches? Does it have weaknesses? Like difficulty to handle pace/spin, lack of precision, is very tiring, ect.

 

[stephan_58]

At my level my forehand is okay and when I’m loose (so, only during practice ;-)) I can do quite a lot with it (vary spin, power etc.). However, when I’m tight it tends to be spinny and way too short a lot of the time. I also struggle with wide balls on my forehand side. Most of the time I try to just send it back high and deep but 80% it’s also short and too spinny. Generally I struggle way more against a lot of spin than pace. I can handle pace quite well because at my level, flat hitters tend to make a lot of mistakes so I usually try to block back as many balls as possible until they make a mistake.

 

[v-verb]

ATP forehand is more spinny and less penetrating. WTA the opposite.

I transitioned to the ATP stroke this summer but sometimes will do a WTA stroke when I want to flatten out and power the shot

 

[PhrygianDominant]

I have simplified my forehand, and it probably looks more WTA now, than ATP.

I tried to to copy Agassi.

Simplicity has helped me be consistent under pressure.

 

[PMChambers]

Go ATP, the choice has more about the power generation than anything. There less timing error with the ATP style but it will go short and sit up more if you don't transition your weight. It's also better for getting to a ball late but you need to use your legs and torso more to generate power. I think the ATP FH is safer and with increase power through legs and torso can be safer with more "power" and kick off the ground.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I have simplified my forehand, and it probably looks more WTA now, than ATP.

I tried to to copy Agassi.

Simplicity has helped me be consistent under pressure.

Don't understand. If you copied Agassi's FH, then why do you have a WTA FH? To my mind, the Agassi FH a very simple stroke and is one of the more important FHs in the evolution of the ATP-style FH. Even tho' he usually hit his FH fairly flat, it is very ATP in nature in most respects. I do not buy the characterization that the ATP FH is necessarily more spinny and less penetrating.

Agassi and Federer have takebacks that are more compact than most other players. The left (non-dominant) arm across the body after the hand releases on the unit turn is something that I picked up from watching Andre in the 90s. I have seen some images of Sampras with his left arm across the body as well but is something that was more obvious with early on with Agassi.

My preference is for a FH that is primarily ATP in nature. It is much easier to time the forward swing. The long backswing of the WTA FH makes it more difficult to time the forward swing, especially on faster or deeper incoming balls.

 

[movdqa]

ATP-style works better for me but I have a really high-powered racquet. I find that I really prefer the extra bit of time saved on preparation along with more flexibility to make a decision on where to hit it at the next-to-last moment.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

ATP forehand is more spinny and less penetrating. WTA the opposite...

Not so. It sounds like you are referring specifically to the WW forehand finish. This is not the only version of the modern ATP forehand. Did you watch the first part of the video? The ATP FH style is more about the compact takeback than anything else (not the WW finish). The 2nd point brought up in the video is the position of the non-dominant arm after it the hand releases (after the unit turn). These elements are seen on the ATP forehand regardless if the finish is OTS or WW.

 

[movdqa]

Berdych hits with the ATP style and he isn't exactly a spin monster.

 

[TennisCJC]

Berdych hits with the ATP style and he isn't exactly a spin monster.

That a TT thread that has stats from Aussie Open that show Berdych had a FH spin rate of 2450 RPM. I doubt that is his average if you measure a long period of time. But, I think most of us mere mortals don't understand the concept of pros who hit flat. Flat hitting pros still hit a lot of spin on average and they do it with slightly lower trajectory and more pace than loopier and spinnier players like Nadal. Nadal averages around 3,100 RPM.

Agassi averaged around 1,800-1,9000 RPM on his FH and he was also considered a flat hitter. I bet Berdych over many matches averages around the same as Agassi and maybe a touch more.

 

[TennisCJC]

to the op, i don't know if I would totally re-engineer your FH, but maybe trying all or a few of these things could help.

1. Keep both hands on the frame during the prep or unit turn phase.
2. From prep phase, take the racket back but try to start your forward core/hip/shoulder rotation BEFORE the racket head sticks out behind your back.
3. As you take the racket back from prep make sure the racket face is a bit closed.

Leading back with the elbow a wee bit up will help with keeping the racket head in front of your should line and prevent you from laying the head back behind your body.

All of these should lead to a more compact stroke but still have plenty of power. But, Jeremy Chardy lays the racket head back behind his body and is very successful. Personally, I like the more compact motion as it is easier to time and works better against fast incoming balls.

 

[PhrygianDominant]

Don't understand. If you copied Agassi's FH, then why do you have a WTA FH? To my mind, the Agassi FH a very simple stroke and is one of the more important FHs in the evolution of the ATP-style FH. Even tho' he usually hit his FH fairly flat, it is very ATP in nature in most respects. I do not buy the characterization that the ATP FH is necessarily more spinny and less penetrating.

Agassi and Federer have takebacks that are more compact than most other players. The left (non-dominant) arm across the body after the hand releases on the unit turn is something that I picked up from watching Andre in the 90s. I have seen some images of Sampras with his left arm across the body as well but is something that was more obvious with early on with Agassi.

My preference is for a FH that is primarily ATP in nature. It is much easier to time the forward swing. The long backswing of the WTA FH makes it more difficult to time the forward swing, especially on faster or deeper incoming balls.

Okay, well I guess I didn't understand the terminology. I guess because I hit it flatter these days, I thought that was the thing. Also, I don't release the wrist, it is stable throughout the stroke.

Anyway. It got better.

 

[caugas]

Berdych hits with the ATP style and he isn't exactly a spin monster.

True true... true.......

 

[movdqa]

That a TT thread that has stats from Aussie Open that show Berdych had a FH spin rate of 2450 RPM. I doubt that is his average if you measure a long period of time. But, I think most of us mere mortals don't understand the concept of pros who hit flat. Flat hitting pros still hit a lot of spin on average and they do it with slightly lower trajectory and more pace than loopier and spinnier players like Nadal. Nadal averages around 3,100 RPM.

Agassi averaged around 1,800-1,9000 RPM on his FH and he was also considered a flat hitter. I bet Berdych over many matches averages around the same as Agassi and maybe a touch more.

Berdych has two main kinds of forehands - those when he has the initiative and those when he's on the defensive. When he has the initiative, it's a lot harder and less spin. When he's on the defensive, it's more of a brush up. You'd understand it if you hit with his frame as you can generate a lot of power with a brush up with it.

Averages can be misleading.

 

[GuyClinch]

Most guys gravitate towards the ATP style - so I don't think you have to worry about it much. I don't think the ATP style is this crazy difficult wristy shot that some forum members would have you believe it is..

The main thing is you let the racquet head drop into the slot after your forward swing has started.. This is the so called 'flip' - and what the women do not really do for the most part. You have to be really lose and relaxed to start to get the hang of this..

Watch Fed warm up to get the idea - but use the frame by frame chrome add-on..

 

[GuyClinch]

None of the pros hit flat - they all have significant racquet head rotation from ISR as they swing. This adds an element of spin to even their flattest balls - and the fact that they use so much RHS speed means that almost every shot will have significant spin. An 80 MPH forehand hit with only 1000 rpm of spin is really 'flat' in trajectory - but still has significant spin.

The only flat shot you might actually see would be some kind of volley spike. No ISR there..

 

[tennis_balla]

Do people here understand the differences between the so called ATP and WTA forehands?

 

[LeeD]

WTA if you want a simple direct stroke, like ROS, which is more consistent but usually less spin or spin speed combo, and needs more body control.
ATP if you want potentially more swingspeed, but it needs more practice, is more complicated, and needs to be swung fully and fast every time.
Top players use both. ATP when they have time, WTA when returning medium speed serves.

 

[Cowboyardee]

Honestly, at the rec level it depends more on your particular strengths and weaknesses than on the actual advantages and disadvantages of one style of fh over another. For one simple example, most talk about the differences in power between the two styles is misleading - if you hit the fh hard, you're gonna hit it hard with either style, and if you lack power, you're gonna lack power with either style of stroke. Power doesn't come primarily from your backswing.

I've personally switched from a WTA style fh to an ATP style fairly recently. But this was after accepting that my fh was one of the weakest parts of my game, and that I had difficulty specifically in terms of consistency and in adjusting to an opponent's particularly heavy, high-topspin shots in a rally. In other words, I felt I had little to lose by changing my fh mechanics. It's been about 8 months so far, and I think I'm about 80% through the transition. It took two or three months for the stroke to feel natural to me to the point that I didn't have to think about it. Now it's just a matter of making the timing feel as natural as it did with my old stroke, which is a slow process and one that I imagine will still take a number of months to fully complete. On the upside, I'm already better at pushing my opponent back during a rally and I seem to have better consistency despite my timing issues. I should note that I've never had a problem generating power, so hitting slow loopy midcourt topspin shots that sit up for an opponent to slam down my throat has not been a problem for me - but it might be a problem for you if you don't generate much pace easily.

The main question you should be asking yourself is exactly what you hope to accomplish with your fh. Is there a specific weakness you're trying to address? Is your fh overall a weakness in your game at your level? A rec player who hits the ball like Serena or one who hits the ball like Federer are both going to be utterly dominant... but none of us rec players hit the ball that well in the first place.

 

[WildVolley]

Do people here understand the differences between the so called ATP and WTA forehands?

What do you mean "understand" the differences?

I think the thing that is easiest to identify is the shorter takeback with the racket pressing down at somewhere around 5 or 6 o'clock on the ATP-style and the racket hand going back at least to 6 o'clock on the WTA-style and the hand supinating so the racket goes back behind the body and shoulder-line.

That's my understanding. I think most people think the Federer/Nadal/Murray/Verdasco/Berdych-style forehands are ATP. What they see as a commonality in those strokes might not be the same.

 

[GuyClinch]

Do people here understand the differences between the so called ATP and WTA forehands?

OP provided a link where the differences were painstainkingly delineated.. Try watching it..

 

[wannabe good]

Leading back with the elbow a wee bit up will help with keeping the racket head in front of your should line and prevent you from laying the head back behind your body.

I prefer a takeback where there is no movement of arm relative to the body. Ideally, the takeback is 100% percent rotation of the torso, and the racket's position to the shoulders will be the same as what it was in the ready position.

This way racket head will never point straight at the net, but will always point up, not vertically, but still up. When movement of the elbow leads the takeback, then racket head points more toward the net. Some pros do it this way, but I find it encourages tendencies to perform all kinds of funky arm movement.

I would like if others can comment on my description. Thanks.

 

[wings56]

https://youtu.be/lhy5hIDm5Pc

do you think that is WTA or ATP style?

I'd like to think I hit ATP style, but when I slowed the motion down, it is most certainly more aligned with forehands seen on the WTA.

 

[LeeD]

ROS, one handed takeback, WTA, but high racket head like ATP.

 

[wings56]

ROS, one handed takeback, WTA, but high racket head like ATP.

Follow through is very WTA like though. I think the number of people able to have an ATP style forehand are few and far between.

 

[LeeD]

I can hit a decent ATP forehand when I'm just hitting, against a medium paced short ball, but oherwise, it don't work.
Against everything else, especially deep incoming shots, WTA works more of the time, and much stronger contact each and every time.

 

[tennis_balla]

I've seen the video before a long time ago. To a club player, ATP vs WTA is about as important as which shampoo Federer uses.

 

[wannabe good]

Follow through is very WTA like though. I think the number of people able to have an ATP style forehand are few and far between.

You are countering a serve so there is less of a throwing/whipping quality in your shot, which is expected for the particular shot you are trying to execute.

 

[ARKustom93]

ATP forehand is more spinny and less penetrating. WTA the opposite.

I transitioned to the ATP stroke this summer but sometimes will do a WTA stroke when I want to flatten out and power the shot

Common misconception, caused by the very different ball trajectories off the racquet.

 

[wannabe good]

I've seen the video before a long time ago. To a club player, ATP vs WTA is about as important as which shampoo Federer uses.

Not everybody reading this is a club player. Also, who are you to say what should be important for a club player? Recreational players have freedom to define their own reasons why they play.

 

[ARKustom93]

I can hit a decent ATP forehand when I'm just hitting, against a medium paced short ball, but oherwise, it don't work.
Against everything else, especially deep incoming shots, WTA works more of the time, and much stronger contact each and every time.

That's a strange one ... but then, coming from you?

Guess, Novak could have won that match, had he been smart enough to switch to that fearsome WTA forehand ...

 

[Enga]

Ignoring the point of this thread, "ATP vs WTA style" seems so misleading. It MIGHT give a guy the idea that they better start playing like a man, based on stylistic choices alone.

A man is stronger than a woman typically. So he will tend to develop a faster, and shorter swing. A woman will develop a longer swing because the muscles in the forearm dont develop as easily for her. But if a man naturally develops a longer swing, much like most women tend to, I dont think he needs to be worried because he will usually hit the ball harder and with more spin anyway, simply because of the way our bodies are built. Look no further than Boris Becker. He learned his style from his sister, and his forehand had the characteristics of a "WTA" forehand. But his pace and spin were very much ATP for the time.

 

[GuyClinch]

It's misleading - as it refers more to dominant style on tour - and not really applicable to individual players. Hewitt is more WTA - whereas Stosur is more ATP. For rec player either forehand is going to work great - and they will only loosely approximate the pro..

I feel the main difference is how guys like Fed, Safin et al let the racquet head lag back and drop into the slot on the foreward swing rather then forcibly locking it into position before the swing starts.

That being said its not THAT big of a deal imho. You can see some mediocre players who have lag - and very good ones that have none..

If we compare the top tennis guys - one hits with a WTA style forehand and the other with a more ATP style forehand. But its the guy with the WTA style forehand that was on tour..

Clearly WTA style - see how he locks the wrist back and the racquet goes behind the body..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnKk4xu6DP4

Simon's stroke is much shorter..and the racquet lays back into the slot..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4oIrtzDIcQ

Rec players would be very excited to have either forehand.. but you can see bad variations of both out there on the courts, IMHO.

 

[Cowboyardee]

https://youtu.be/lhy5hIDm5Pc

do you think that is WTA or ATP style?

I'd like to think I hit ATP style, but when I slowed the motion down, it is most certainly more aligned with forehands seen on the WTA.

In that you actively **** your racket back before starting the forward movement in your swing, I'd say your style is closer to the WTA fh. Though it's not uncommon for WTA players to use a longer backswing than you do.

Yours is also clearly a superior stroke by the standards of most rec players and I would see no reason to change it.

 

[horriblehack]

rec player can do neither

If you have no idea what I'm talking about watch this video first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

I know this topic's been discussed before but I couldn't get to a conclusion on whether it would be better for rec players to adopt a ATP-style forehand for more power and spin. I'm a 5'11'' 28 yo male, about 4.0 and my forehand is the main weapon in my game. Last week after a long time I taped myself hitting and for a while now I was wondering why I can't see much of a "snap" in my stroke. I do have a relaxed grip and get into the power position (buttcap first). Turned out I hit more of a WTA-style forehand with the racket-head on the other side of the body in the takeback and more of a "pulling-motion". Should I try to switch to an ATP-forehand or is the WTA-motion okay as well? How hard is the switch? As I said my forehand is my main weapon but I sometimes feel there could be more potential.

Recreational player don't hit like pros. It doesn't matter pros of yester years or today, male pros, female pros, rec palyers can't hit like them.

It would be like a fat middle men asking, it is better for me on a basketball breakaway with two defenders guarding the basket that I slam dunk the ball bring the ball between my legs or do a 360 in mid air ? the answer is neither.

 

[GuyClinch]

Recreational player don't hit like pros. It doesn't matter pros of yester years or today, male pros, female pros, rec palyers can't hit like them.

It would be like a fat middle men asking, it is better for me on a basketball breakaway with two defenders guarding the basket that I slam dunk the ball bring the ball between my legs or do a 360 in mid air ? the answer is neither.

Exaggerate much? It's pretty easy to find tons of juniors hitting alot like the pros. Go to any decent tennis club and watch some of the under 15 kids hit.. Smooth fluid strokes - many of them hit ATP style..

I guess you live up to your forum name.. Plenty of guys hit very nice forehands - its not like a breakaway dunk - its more like a jump shot or a 15 yard slant or a double down the line..

 

[TennisCJC]

I prefer a takeback where there is no movement of arm relative to the body. Ideally, the takeback is 100% percent rotation of the torso, and the racket's position to the shoulders will be the same as what it was in the ready position.

This way racket head will never point straight at the net, but will always point up, not vertically, but still up. When movement of the elbow leads the takeback, then racket head points more toward the net. Some pros do it this way, but I find it encourages tendencies to perform all kinds of funky arm movement.

I would like if others can comment on my description. Thanks.

I am not advocating the high elbow that Sampras used where his racket tip pointed at the net. But, Federer and Nadal lead back with the elbow up a bit and with the elbow pointed a bit at the back fence. Yes, the racket tip points mostly up and not directly at the net. But, you the tip of the racket will be closer to the net than say the handle of the racket if you lead back with the elbow. I think this is a good thing as it keeps the swing compact and keeps you from laying the racket head back behind the line of your shoulders.

 

[wings56]

In that you actively **** your racket back before starting the forward movement in your swing, I'd say your style is closer to the WTA fh. Though it's not uncommon for WTA players to use a longer backswing than you do.

Yours is also clearly a superior stroke by the standards of most rec players and I would see no reason to change it.

Yeah, there isn't much that I'm going to be able to change in any of my strokes by this point in my life. Constantly tweaking everything, but big changes... probably not.

 

[syc23]

People who say Recs can't hit an ATP FH is talking nonsense. Pros are like all most humans with 2 arms and 2 legs. With enough practice and dedication, you can develop it. It takes practice, practice, practice.

How bad do you want it?

 

[5263]

Yeah, there isn't much that I'm going to be able to change in any of my strokes by this point in my life. Constantly tweaking everything, but big changes... probably not.

that pic is pretty much in the slot, so it's hard to see how you got there. The slot is very similar for both its more about how you get there.

 

[wings56]

that pic is pretty much in the slot, so it's hard to see how you got there. The slot is very similar for both its more about how you get there.

see i feel the atp vs wta forehand differences show more on follow through. if you watch the video from that vh and go frame by frame... you can see on follow through the arm is coming around almost as fast the racquet head.

ATP style forehand has the racquet head accelerating through significantly faster with the racquet head reaching forward through the shot and then the arm wraps around from deceleration(sp?).

 

[5263]

see i feel the atp vs wta forehand differences show more on follow through. if you watch the video from that vh and go frame by frame... you can see on follow through the arm is coming around almost as fast the racquet head.

ATP style forehand has the racquet head accelerating through significantly faster with the racquet head reaching forward through the shot and then the arm wraps around from deceleration(sp?).

The follow thru is key but we can't see that in the pic as well and I don't think your explanation is that accurate. ATP does not require more accel for every use and the WTA can hit high accel as well, even though what you mention IS typical. Imo it is more about the path of the stroke & follow thru and when the follow thru starts with the hand,..... but the real key to the ATP is how quick ATP set up allows you to load the racket head to have it ready for acceleration. This helps to time shots and deal with fast incoming balls and on the rise shots often faced by the men.

 

[wings56]

The follow thru is key but we can't see that in the pic as well and I don't think your explanation is that accurate. ATP does not require more accel for every use and the WTA can hit high accel as well, even though what you mention IS typical. Imo it is more about the path of the stroke & follow thru and when the follow thru starts with the hand,..... but the real key to the ATP is how quick ATP set up allows you to load the racket head to have it ready for acceleration. This helps to time shots and deal with fast incoming balls and on the rise shots often faced by the men.

https://youtu.be/lhy5hIDm5Pc

that is what i posted earlier

 

[5263]

https://youtu.be/lhy5hIDm5Pc

that is what i posted earlier

Is that you in the vid? Nicely done either way.

But I still say the key, and especially here on a serve rtn, is how quick you can get to the slot with the racket head loaded for the pull. From there you can pull pretty direct to the contact, to accel fast or moderate as timing requires. Imo this is much tougher to do with this type quickness on the WTA tk back.

 

[racquetreligion]

Soderling, DelPo, Chardy and even Jack Sock have massive WTA style FHs.

 

[wings56]

Is that you in the vid? Nicely done either way.

But I still say the key, and especially here on a serve rtn, is how quick you can get to the slot with the racket head loaded for the pull. From there you can pull pretty direct to the contact, to accel fast or moderate as timing requires. Imo this is much tougher to do with this type quickness on the WTA tk back.

This is me. certainly a highlight from that game... if you look at my vids on youtube, you can see the whole game and a few floundering shots on my end.

 

[wings56]

Soderling, DelPo, Chardy and even Jack Sock have massive WTA style FHs.

jack sock!? i can see what you're getting at with soderling... delpo i don't think so... chardy is on the edge... he has a very exaggerated roll on his follow through, but I think it is more ATP style

 

[jdubbs]

Soderling, DelPo, Chardy and even Jack Sock have massive WTA style FHs.

Jack Sock has an ATP FH, not sure you meant Jack Sock, you couldn't have.

Jack Sock slow motion FH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWqrVOW_-SE

 

[jdubbs]

I'm making the transition from WTA to ATP FH.

Well, it happened on accident, I wanted more power so I went to a local pro thinking he would make a tweak or two and instead completely changed my forehand to mimic "what the pros do."

Let me tell you, it's been frustrating, very frustrating. There are some matches where I have a lot more power and spin, but the timing has to be impeccable on the ATP and I hit SOOOOOO many shots long now.

My forehand has gone from a very reliable rally ball to a monster I can't control nearly as well, with a winner on one shot, and a badly missed-hitting the back fence the next.

I did look at some video and my form is definitely off compared to the pros, so I've still got some work to do. I hit too stiffly and don't finish well with the classic windshield wiper.

But I would say, after 6 months, I would have been better off tweaking my existing WTA forehand than completely changing it to ATP. Too late now for me.