Women's supertournament of champions

This is inspired by the tennis magazine tournament thread, however I have expanded it to include pre 1960s women and increased the field to 64 women.
the bracket is set up the same as the tennis mag one seed wise to make it easier.

Everyone is seeded by number of majors won with ties broken by who won their last first...hence as Evert hit 18 before Navratilova she is seeded higher.

Every seed up through 57 won at least 2 majors, after which I picked random 1 slam winners to fill the void. I'm not gonna list the seeds, just the draw as the post would be to big.

In the interest of keeping it with the original
1st set on clay
2nd set on hard
3rd set on grass

Here is the draw, if I missed any 2+ slam winners...well...you know what...sue me LOL

(1) Court vs (64) Stosur
(32) Wightman vs (33) Fry
(17) Hillyard vs (48) Coyne Long
(16) V. Williams vs (49) Reitano

(9) Connolly vs (56) Li
(24) Cozens vs (41) Haydon Jones
(25) Hull Jacobs vs (40) Mortimer Barret
(8) King vs (57) Kvitova

(5) Evert vs (60) Martinez
(28) Gibson vs (37) Sutton Bundy
(21) Hart vs (44) Davenport
(12) Chambers vs (53) Mauresmo

(13) Bueno vs (52) Pierce
(20) Clapp vs (45) Capriati
(29) Hingis vs (36) Clijsters
(4) Moody vs (61) Ivanovic

(6) Navratilova vs (59)Novotna
(27) Betz Addie vs (38) Browne
(22) Dodd vs (43) Wade
(11) Mallory vs (54) Kuznetsova

(14) Goolagong vs (51) Richey
(19) Bolton vs (46) McKane
(30) Sharapova vs (35) Vicario
(3) S Williams vs (62) Melville Reid

(7) Lenglen vs (58) Sabatini
(26) Marble vs (39) Round Little
(23) Sterry vs (42) Hard
(10) Seles vs (55) Azarenka

(15) Henin vs (50) Turner Bowrey
(18) Osborne Dupont vs (47) Mathieu
(31) Moore vs (34) Mandlikova
(2) Graf vs (63) Schiavone

I'll play but I have to admit some of these names I either know very little about or forgot what I knew.
(1) Court vs (64) Stosur Court wins 6-3, 6-4
(32) Wightman vs (33) Fry Fry wins 6-2, 6-4
(17) Hillyard vs (48) Coyne Long This is a guess I am in the dark. Hillyard wins 6-4, 6-4
(16) V. Williams vs (49) Reitano Venus wins 7-6, 6-2

(9) Connolly vs (56) Li Mo wins 6-2, 6-2
(24) Cozens vs (41) Haydon Jones Jones wins 6-3, 7-5 Don't know squat about Cozens
(25) Hull Jacobs vs (40) Mortimer Barret Mortimer wins 6-4, 7-5
(8) King vs (57) Kvitova King wins 4-6, 6-4, 6-3 Don't know much about Kvitova except she is very streaky and Grass is her best.

(5) Evert vs (60) Martinez Evert wins 6-3,6-4
(28) Gibson vs (37) Sutton Bundy Gibson wins 7-6, 6-4
(21) Hart vs (44) Davenport Davenport wins 3-6, 6-2, 6-3
(12) Chambers vs (53) Mauresmo Chambers wins 7-5, 6-4

(13) Bueno vs (52) Pierce Pierce wins 6-3, 6-3 This upset will be controversial, but because of the order of the surfaces...
(20) Clapp vs (45) Capriati Clapp wins 6-4, 2-6, 6- 4
(29) Hingis vs (36) Clijsters Hingis wins 4-6, 6-4, 6-3
(4) Moody vs (61) Ivanovic Wills wins 6-3, 6-3

(6) Navratilova vs (59)Novotna Navratilova wins 6-4, 6-2
(27) Betz Addie vs (38) Browne Betz wins 6-2, 6-2
(22) Dodd vs (43) Wade Dodd wins 7-5, 6-4
(11) Mallory vs (54) Kuznetsova Kuznetsova wins 6-3, 6-3
(14) Goolagong vs (51) Richey Goolagong wins 3-6, 6-4, 6-2
(19) Bolton vs (46) McKane McKane wins 6-4, 6-4
(30) Sharapova vs (35) Vicario Vicario wins 6-3, 7-5
(3) S Williams vs (62) Melville Reid Serena wins 6-3, 6-1

(7) Lenglen vs (58) SabatiniLenglen wins 6-3, 6-3
(26) Marble vs (39) Round Little Marble wins 6-4, 6-3
(23) Sterry vs (42) Hard Hard wins 6-4, 6-2
(10) Seles vs (55) Azarenka Seles wins 6-2, 7-5
(15) Henin vs (50) Turner Bowrey Henin wins 6-2, 6-3
(18) Osborne Dupont vs (47) Mathieu Osborne Dupont wins 3-6, 6-3, 6-2
(31) Moore vs (34) Mandlikova Mandlikova wins 6-4, 6-3
(2) Graf vs (63) Schiavone Graf wins 6-3, 6-2

Here's my first crack...some of these are hard to call so maybe I'll redo later

Rd 1
(1) Court d (64) Stosur 61 61
(33) Fry d (32) Wightman 63 26 64
(17) Hillyard d (48) Coyne Long 57 64 63
(16) V. Williams d (49) Reitano 64 61

(9) Connolly d (56) Li 62 62
(41) Haydon Jones d (24) Cozens 63 62
(25) Hull Jacobs d (40) Mortimer Barret 75 26 64
(8) King d (57) Kvitova 64 75

(5) Evert d (60) Martinez 63 63
(28) Gibson d (37) Sutton Bundy 64 61
(21) Hart d (44) Davenport 63 26 75
(12) Chambers d (53) Mauresmo 75 36 76 (4)

(13) Bueno d (52) Pierce 64 26 63
(20) Clapp d (45) Capriati 63 26 62
(36) Clijsters d (29) Hingis 63 75
(4) Moody d (61) Ivanovic 75 63

(6) Navratilova d (59)Novotna 62 61
(27) Betz Addie d (38) Browne 61 61
(43) Wade d (22) Dodd 64 64
(11) Mallory d (54) Kuznetsova 75 64

(14) Goolagong d (51) Richey 57 63 63
(46) McKane d (19) Bolton 62 64
(35) Vicario d (30) Sharapova 64 26 75
(3) S Williams d (62) Melville Reid 75 62

(7) Lenglen d (58) Sabatini 61 64
(26) Marble d (39) Round Little 64 64
(42) Hard d (23) Sterry 76(4) 64
(10) Seles d (55) Azarenka 63 57 63

(15) Henin d (50) Turner Bowrey 62 63
(18) Osborne Dupont d (47) Mathieu 57 62 63
(34) Mandlikova d (31) Moore 64 63
(2) Graf d (63) Schiavone 64 62

Rd 2
(1) Court d (33) Fry 64 63
(16) V Williams d (17) Hillyard 63 61

(9) Connolly d (41) Haydon Jones 63 75
(8) King d (25) Hull Jacobs 64 36 64

(5) Evert d (28) Gibson 64 76 (4)
(21) Hart d (12) Chambers 63 57 64

(20) Clapp d (13) Bueno 46 64 75
(4) Moody d (36) Clijsters 62 75

(6) Navratilova d (28) Betz Addie 64 26 63
(11) Mallory d (43) Wade 75 63

(14) Goolagong d (46) McKane 63 63
(3) S Williams d (35) Vicario 57 62 63

(7) Lenglen d (26) Marble 64 57 75 (epic battle)
(10) Seles d (42) Hard 64 76(3)

(18) Osborne Dupont d (15) Henin 26 76(8) 63
(2) Graf d (34) Mandlikova 63 64

Rd 3

(16) V William d (1) Court 36 63 76(9)
(9) Connolly d (8) King 63 63
(5) Evert d (21) Hart 62 75
(4) Moody d (20) Clapp 62 57 76(4)
(6) Navratilova d (11) Mallory 75 46 63
(3) Williams d (14) Goolagong 46 62 64
(7) Lenglen d (10) Seles 76(3) 36 63
(2) Graf d (18) Osbourne 64 64

QFS
(9) Connolly d (16) V William 63 57 75
(5) Evert d (4) Moody 64 64
(6) Navratilova d (3) S Williams 64 26 76(5)
(2)Graf d (3) Lenglen 57 64 75

SF
(9) Connolly d (5) Evert 36 76(5) 64
(2) Graf d (6) Navratilova 62 36 75

F
(2) Graf d (9) Connolly 64 76(4)

I don't like how this draw ended up falling. I was expecting some more interesting pairings but I went neutral 1 vs 64 so it didn't look like I rigged the draw to make certain things happen.

Some matches though would be spectacular. Marble vs Lenglen especially intrigues me, I wish it were possible.

I've made my feelings about this kind of fantasy matchups clear but if you're going to indulge yourself anyway you may want to play the 2nd set on grass and the last decisive set on hard which is not entirely without reason seen as the neutral surface. It'd make for a fairer tournament, I think.

No Tracy Austin?

boredone3456 said:

I don't like how this draw ended up falling. I was expecting some more interesting pairings but I went neutral 1 vs 64 so it didn't look like I rigged the draw to make certain things happen.

Some matches though would be spectacular. Marble vs Lenglen especially intrigues me, I wish it were possible.

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There are some who believe Marble on a fast surface was the best of all. When she was young I believe she threw a baseball about 400 feet in a contest. One of the women she defeated was Babe Didrikson. So imagine how powerful her serve could have been. Her kick serve was supposed to be fantastic.

Moose Malloy said:

No Tracy Austin?

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Missed her when I was doing the draw..looking up there I also missed three fairly talented women in addition to her

Sarah Palfrey Cooke- 2 time US champion who from all I have read had some powerful strokes. She Is also one of the few women in history to make the finals of a men's tournament when she and her husband reached a men's doubles final I believe

Hilde Krawinkel Sperling- 3 time french open champion and wimbledon runner up. Supposedly a demon on dirt in her day.

Cilly Aussem- another German who was apparently a very unique personality. She was coached by Bill tilden himself and he made her a French and Wimbledon Champion in 1931. She was noted for a powerful for hand, amazing drop shot and was a gifted fighter. However she also had this weird eye condition and had to sit in the dark for hours before a match to brace her eyes for the sunlight while playing.

I could redo the draw to include them,they would all be seeded below 32 though as everyone 32 and above won 4 or more majors.

boredone3456 said:

Missed her when I was doing the draw..looking up there I also missed three fairly talented women in addition to her

Sarah Palfrey Cooke- 2 time US champion who from all I have read had some powerful strokes. She Is also one of the few women in history to make the finals of a men's tournament when she and her husband reached a men's doubles final I believe

Hilde Krawinkel Sperling- 3 time french open champion and wimbledon runner up. Supposedly a demon on dirt in her day.

Cilly Aussem- another German who was apparently a very unique personality. She was coached by Bill tilden himself and he made her a French and Wimbledon Champion in 1931. She was noted for a powerful for hand, amazing drop shot and was a gifted fighter. However she also had this weird eye condition and had to sit in the dark for hours before a match to brace her eyes for the sunlight while playing.

I could redo the draw to include them,they would all be seeded below 32 though as everyone 32 and above won 4 or more majors.

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You're bound to forget someone. I once did a poll on greatest returner of all time and forgot Agassi in the poll!!

boredone3456 said:

I don't like how this draw ended up falling. I was expecting some more interesting pairings but I went neutral 1 vs 64 so it didn't look like I rigged the draw to make certain things happen.

Some matches though would be spectacular. Marble vs Lenglen especially intrigues me, I wish it were possible.

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You did excellent work here, boredon. I'd quibble with your result on Serena vs Martina because once Serena gets a comfortable returning that lefty serve, Martina's in real trouble coming in off her serves consistently, which means by that third set it might not be nearly as close, regardless of the grass surface. Martina HAS to hold serve because breaks are too hard to come by.

I'll get you two tickets to the Lenglen - Marble match, if you will get me two to the Graf- Lenglen or the Evert- Connolly matches. Heck I'll even throw in one ticket to the Chambers - Mauresmo match and we will go together.

pc1 said:

You're bound to forget someone. I once did a poll on greatest returner of all time and forgot Agassi in the poll!!

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I did a list of all opponents who beat Evert more than once and forgot Hana Mandlikova. Who'd notice a little slip like that!

BTURNER said:

You did excellent work here, boredon. I'd quibble with your result on Serena vs Martina because once Serena gets a comfortable returning that lefty serve, Martina's in real trouble coming in off her serves consistently, which means by that third set it might not be nearly as close, regardless of the grass surface. Martina HAS to hold serve because breaks are too hard to come by.

I'll get you two tickets to the Lenglen - Marble match, if you will get me two to the Graf- Lenglen or the Evert- Connolly matches. Heck I'll even throw in one ticket to the Chambers - Mauresmo match and we will go together.

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I had a really hard time calling Serena vs Martina match. I totally get what you are saying. Seren'as serve is a major weapon that Martina is going to have to contend with. On Hard and Grass up the T she is going to have a hard time learning to read it and react to it. Serena does have a good return, but I think apart from the power Martina will be able to deal with it since she dealt with the Evert return for years. Evert had a return designed intentionally to counter a S&V player and that experience will help Martina against Serena. To deal with Serena Martina would have to pull the serve wide to draw Serena off balance and use her speed to get a step ahead to charge the net. The biggest thing in Martina's favor would be the high number of UEs Serena can hit in a match if frustrated. Serena doesn't get killed by that on the current tour because she gets just as many points back if not more from her opponents hitting UEs of their own. Martina was good at keeping her UE count low, and if she can use clay to adjust to Serena while Serena is off Balance then Martina will get a ton of free points if she can throw Serena off enough to make her hit errors.

Also the mental factor of Martina is going to help. the vast majority of Women on the current tour fold to Serena after a set of dealing with her in A mode. They collapse. Martina will not, even if Serena takes the Hard set after losing the first, Martina will know its coming to grass where she won 9 Wimbledons and she will be just as confident as Serena. However the reverse could also be true, when an opponent is really on a la Hana Martina can get angry and start screwing up. But usually when Martina gets angry it was because she knew she was supposed to be the winner and wasn't winning. Against Serena she would probably be seen as an underdog and could use that to her advantage like she did for a while against Evert.

It would be close no doubt.

That and Lenglen/Graf would be EPIC battles

Evert did not match up well with peak Martina. She lost 13 in a row at one point, yet people like Hana (not even playing particularly well during this stretch) and teenaged Helena Sukova were even able to score the odd win. I wouldn't say how Martina handled her would be a good reference to how she would handle someone producing a lot more power, which Serena even with a wood racquet would produce when relative to Chris. Martina even said at her absolute best Chris couldn't really bother her since she didn't have enough explosiveness, and it was tougher to play people like young Steffi and Hana who could handle her power and come back with more of their own a little better.

mattosgrant said:

Evert did not match up well with peak Martina. She lost 13 in a row at one point, yet people like Hana (not even playing particularly well during this stretch) and teenaged Helena Sukova were even able to score the odd win. I wouldn't say how Martina handled her would be a good reference to how she would handle someone producing a lot more power, which Serena even with a wood racquet would produce when relative to Chris. Martina even said at her absolute best Chris couldn't really bother her since she didn't have enough explosiveness, and it was tougher to play people like young Steffi and Hana who could handle her power and come back with more of their own a little better.

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Chris did poorly for a while against peak Martina for several reasons:
1. She waited way to long to switch from Wood to a modern Graphite Racket. Once Martina adjusted to Graphite she had a bigger racket head and more power then Chris with wood and Chris was handicapped from that. When Chris finally did make the switch she took a lot longer to adjust her game to the new racket then Martina did. Chris could cover these issues against most of the rest of the tour but against Martina she couldn't because Martina was at her level.
2. Martina worked her tail off to get herself into better physical shape. In the 70's Chris literally beat Martina by making her run all over the court with drops and lobs until Martina was so gassed Chris could hit a pass and smash her. Martina couldn't run all over the place without getting winded. By the 80's Martina had figured out this was her problem against Chris and worked to correct it. She underwent a massive physical transformation to get into much better shape and add more power to her serve and strokes to find a way to find back against Chris.
3. Martina began selectively narrowing her clay schedule after a while. While she didn't boycott clay altogether (like Pam Shriver seemed to) it almost looked like she was trying to stack the odds even more in her favor against Chris. Martina matched up better against Chris on Grass and Carpet then she did on clay and she knew it. She never missed the French but outside the French she didn't play TONS of clay events like people like Chris did or Rafa did in the modern era. Take Everts best surface out of the equation and the H2H can turn around a little quicker. Still when she played Chris on clay she did had her a few really embarrassing losses anyway, but if I were in her shoes I wouldn't want to play Chris on clay either if I could help it.

around the mid 80's Chris began putting the pieces together and it was competitive again, but by then she had a whole lot of new people to figure out in the emerging Graf, Vicario, Sabatini and near the very end Seles who all became top 10 contenders.

boredone3456 said:

I had a really hard time calling Serena vs Martina match. I totally get what you are saying. Seren'as serve is a major weapon that Martina is going to have to contend with. On Hard and Grass up the T she is going to have a hard time learning to read it and react to it. Serena does have a good return, but I think apart from the power Martina will be able to deal with it since she dealt with the Evert return for years. Evert had a return designed intentionally to counter a S&V player and that experience will help Martina against Serena. To deal with Serena Martina would have to pull the serve wide to draw Serena off balance and use her speed to get a step ahead to charge the net. The biggest thing in Martina's favor would be the high number of UEs Serena can hit in a match if frustrated. Serena doesn't get killed by that on the current tour because she gets just as many points back if not more from her opponents hitting UEs of their own. Martina was good at keeping her UE count low, and if she can use clay to adjust to Serena while Serena is off Balance then Martina will get a ton of free points if she can throw Serena off enough to make her hit errors.

Also the mental factor of Martina is going to help. the vast majority of Women on the current tour fold to Serena after a set of dealing with her in A mode. They collapse. Martina will not, even if Serena takes the Hard set after losing the first, Martina will know its coming to grass where she won 9 Wimbledons and she will be just as confident as Serena. However the reverse could also be true, when an opponent is really on a la Hana Martina can get angry and start screwing up. But usually when Martina gets angry it was because she knew she was supposed to be the winner and wasn't winning. Against Serena she would probably be seen as an underdog and could use that to her advantage like she did for a while against Evert.

It would be close no doubt.

That and Lenglen/Graf would be EPIC battles

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My only rebuttal is that Serena has more height and better reach than Evert and stronger arms and wrists. I'm betting a couple of inches will make a significant difference on that lefty hook serve which was Evert's nemesis.

This is fun. Thanks for organising - I've gone 6-4 6-4 if I'm not really that familiar with one of the players.
1st set on clay
2nd set on hard
3rd set on grass

(1) Court vs (64) Stosur
Court 6-4 6-3
(32) Wightman vs (33) Fry
Fry 6-2 6-4
(17) Hillyard vs (48) Coyne Long
Hillyard 6-4 6-4
(16) V. Williams vs (49) Reitano
Williams 6-4 6-4
(9) Connolly vs (56) Li
Connolly 6-2 6-2
(24) Cozens vs (41) Haydon Jones
Haydon Jones 6-4 6-4
(25) Hull Jacobs vs (40) Mortimer Barret
6-3 6-4
(8) King vs (57) Kvitova
2-6 7-5 6-3
(5) Evert vs (60) Martinez
Evert 6-3 6-2
(28) Gibson vs (37) Sutton Bundy
Gibson 6-4 6-4
(21) Hart vs (44) Davenport
Hart 6-4 6-3
(12) Chambers vs (53) Mauresmo
Chambers 6-3 6-3
(13) Bueno vs (52) Pierce
Bueno 7-5 6-2
I give Bueno the edge on clay given her multiple Italian titles.
(20) Clapp vs (45) Capriati
Capriarti
(29) Hingis vs (36) Clijsters
Hingis 4-6 7-5 6-3
(4) Moody vs (61) Ivanovic
Moody 6-1 6-1
(6) Navratilova vs (59)Novotna
Navratilova 6-3 6-3
(27) Betz Addie vs (38) Browne
Betz 6-4 6-4
(22) Dodd vs (43) Wade
Wade 6-4 6-4
(11) Mallory vs (54) Kuznetsova
Mallory 6-4 6-4
(14) Goolagong vs (51) Richey
Goolagong 4-6 6-4 6-2
(19) Bolton vs (46) McKane
McKane 6-4 6-4
(30) Sharapova vs (35) Vicario
Vicario 6-3 7-6
Vicario will prove to steady and quick
(3) S Williams vs (62) Melville Reid
Williams 6-2 6-2
(7) Lenglen vs (58) Sabatini
Lenglen 6-1 6-0
(26) Marble vs (39) Round Little
Marble 6-4 6-3
(23) Sterry vs (42) Hard
Hard 6-4 6-4
(10) Seles vs (55) Azarenka
Seles 6-1 7-5
(15) Henin vs (50) Turner Bowrey
Henin 6-2 6-4
(18) Osborne Dupont vs (47) Mathieu
OD 6-4 6-4
(31) Moore vs (34) Mandlikova
Mandlikova 6-4 6-4
(2) Graf vs (63) Schiavone
Graf 6-3 6-1

1st set on clay
2nd set on hard
3rd set on grass

R32

(1) Court vs (33) Fry
Court 6-2 6-3
(17) Hillyard vs (16) V. Williams
Williams 6-4 6-4
(9) Connolly vs (41) Haydon Jones
Connoly 6-4 6-3
(40) Mortimer Barret vs King
King 6-3 6-4
(5) Evert vs 28) Gibson
Evert 6-4 7-5
(21) Hart vs (12) Chambers
Chambers 6-4 6-4
(13) Bueno vs (45) Capriati
Bueno 6-4 6-2
Hingis vs (4) Moody
Moody 6-3 6-4
(6) Navratilova vs (27) Betz Addie
Navratilova 6-4 6-4
(43) Wade vs (11) Mallory
Mallory 6-2 6-4
(14) Goolagong vs (46) McKane
Goolagong 6-3 6-4
(35) Vicario vs (3) S Williams
Williams 6-7 6-3 6-1
(7) Lenglen vs (26) Marble
Lenglen 6-1 7-6 - I would have given the grass set to Marble
Hard vs (10) Seles
Seles 6-2 7-5
(15) Henin vs (18) Osborne Dupont
Henin 6-4 6-4
(34) Mandlikova vs (2) Graf
Graf 6-4 7-5

1st set on clay
2nd set on hard
3rd set on grass

R16

(1) Court vs (16) V. Williams
Court 6-2 6-4
(9) Connolly vs King
Connolly 6-1 6-4
(5) Evert vs (12) Chambers
Evert 6-4 6-4
(13) Bueno vs (4) Moody
Moody 6-3 6-4
(6) Navratilova vs (11) Mallory
Navratilova 6-2 6-4
(14) Goolagong vs (3) S Williams
Williams 6-7 6-3 6-3
(7) Lenglen vs (10) Seles
Lenglen 6-4 7-5
(15) Henin vs (2) Graf
Graf 4-6 6-4 6-1

1st set on clay
2nd set on hard
3rd set on grass

QF

(1) Court vs (9) Connolly
Connolly 6-4 6-4
(5) Evert vs (4) Moody
Evert 7-6 6-4
(6) Navratilova vs (3) S Williams
Navratilova 6-7 7-6 6-3
This really was a toss up- so went with whom I would choose if my life depended on it. Seemed a simple choice then.
(7) Lenglen vs (2) Graf
Graf 4-6 6-4 7-5

1st set on clay
2nd set on hard
3rd set on grass

SF

(9) Connolly vs (5) Evert
Evert 7-5 7-5
Admitted bias but also I would trust Evert if again, my life was on the line. I would have given the grass court set to Connolly.
(6) Navratilova vs (2) Graf
Graf 6-4 4 -6 10-8
But cd just as easily gone the other way.

Final
Graf defeats Evert 4-6 7-6 6-4
Again cd have gone the other way- both playing with wood I pick Evert.

I think Moody and Connolly back to back would be a bad draw for Evert. I see both those women overpowering her and taking it, other than possibly the clay set.

mattosgrant said:

I think Moody and Connolly back to back would be a bad draw for Evert. I see both those women overpowering her and taking it, other than possibly the clay set

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Curiously, statistics from Evert's career show the very worst surface for baseliners to play Evert on, is actually GRASS. you will find some baseliner upsets on clay or hardcourts in her record. You will not find a single loss in her career on a grass court to a baseliner( Moody and Connolly were baseliners) between the years 1972 and 1988 on the professional tour, in Federation , Bonnie Belle or Wightman cup play. It was Peaches Barkowitz in the very early 70's and Steffi Graf in 1989 when Evert was 34 years old, and that is the whole list! Granted that she wasn't playing names like these two all time greats, but it does show how very perfect her strokes and game were to control grasscourt rallies and set up for her approaches and drops etc. If it gets to a third set on grass, and you do not employ a serve/ volley in your tactical arsenal, you just tend to loose in straights. I am not even sure both women wouldn't do better on clay or hard courts.

On second thought, maybe this reflects more on her mobility , court coverage and capacity to shrink her side of the net, than on her strokes or tactics to widen the other. In any case, there were no Austin or Jaeger experiences on grass in her legacy.

There werent really any power baseliners in Evert's era though. Can you think of one? I sure cant. Hana and Margeret were all court players with some baseline power I guess, but mostly played at the net when playing Chris on grass. We would probably need to see her play a prime Nancy Richey on grass for instance to get any idea, but they are too far apart in age to have a clue (and they only seemed to play on clay mostly anyway when they did meet).

She didnt play Graf often on grass but Wimbledon 89 was sure a massive beat down, even at that stage of her career. Contrast to the very tough 3 setter they had on a slow hard court in Florida that same year.

I forgot Austin briefly. She is a power baseliner. She kind of sucked on grass though, and I dont think even played Chris on it after Wimbledon 77 though.

mattosgrant said:

There werent really any power baseliners in Evert's era though. Can you think of one? I sure cant. Hana and Margeret were all court players with some baseline power I guess, but mostly played at the net when playing Chris on grass. We would probably need to see her play a prime Nancy Richey on grass for instance to get any idea, but they are too far apart in age to have a clue (and they only seemed to play on clay mostly anyway when they did meet).

She didnt play Graf often on grass but Wimbledon 89 was sure a massive beat down, even at that stage of her career. Contrast to the very tough 3 setter they had on a slow hard court in Florida that same year.

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you are going to need to define 'power' baseliner, and show me that Connolly and Moody were more powerful than Evert or at least show that they were as powerful as Graf got to be on the forehand wing by 1988. You are not seriously going to tell me that you can learn anything about Evert's grass game from that 1989 match( the last match she ever played on grass in the last 3 months of her career) She defaulted in the 3rd round of the Pilkington Glass a week prior, and lost in the 2nd round in Toronto a month later. Those matches don't tell you anything either. That entire year was bizarre to say the least.

About Serena vs Navratilova, I would look at Seles' record against MN.

Take Seles' 10-7 vs MN, not too bad until you consider that ;

(1) after 1988, MN never played French again until 1994 lost 1R against a no name, and after 1989, never played Australian again. Both were Monica's best tournaments.

(2) Seles and MN met 11 times on carpet, Monica's worst surface other than grass, naturally being MN's best surface other than grass. Seles is actually 6-5 ahead. On hard which is neutral to both, they are 2-2 with Monica winning the important US final.

(3) The one time they met on grass at Wimbledon, Seles beat her in 3, in the middle of the whipped up anti Monica campaign of 1992. The one time they met on clay at Rome, Seles double breadsticked her.

It is quite obvious why MN avoided the first half of the year after 1988 like a plague. And then Seles came along. Graf played one of her best matches ever in 1993 AO and still lost to Seles on that RA surface. How would MN stand a chance there with her s n v dependent game? (peak Monica on RA would take Serena to beat, imo)

But MN has a "head for history"! Didn't want her h2h record against anybody to end up too badly. Graf never avoided Monica. Navratilova on the other hand loves her records and was therefore quite shrewd about protecting her h2h. She knew she had no chance against either except maybe in the second half of the year. Don't get on about some kind of nebulous "age difference". You go out there, you are fit to play. Nor about technology. Nobody benefited more from switching to a big graphite racquet than MN since she was the first in the transitional era. Perhaps in 1994 with all Graf's injuries and Seles' absence, MN actually thought she could snatch a French on the sly. Again don't talk about age, MN was seeded 4th that year. Her style even early 90's was way obsolete.

Seles herself was a prototype for the players 2000's and after. But the power hitters Serena/Venus/Lindsay all destroyed her. There's a reason why the 2 fisted fh is not generally used. Now match Serena against Navratilova again, this is not a hypothetical match I'd want to see, no matter what the surface, fast slow medium, even if MN thinks it would be a " pretty great match", according to herself. However, Chris Evert commented at French final this year : "I'm glad I never got to play her (Serena)"

The rest of it, putting pre war players against open era players is just meant to be for fun, no doubt.

Martina was 'fit' to play, but she wasn't near her peak. its not that her conditioning that was at issue in her later years, it was her court coverage and her serve that really declined and her consistency suffered. The h to h counts and the victories belong to Seles, but Martina had begun to slip from her best in 1988, and while she still had some 'great tennis' in her, she could not demand that it show up on command anymore, or that it stick around for an hour or two in a QF or semifinal. That 'great tennis' tended to go on a starbucks run at the most inopportune times, just like Evert's had from 1986 forward.

BTURNER said:

Martina was 'fit' to play, but she wasn't near her peak. its not that her conditioning that was at issue in her later years, it was her court coverage and her serve that really declined and her consistency suffered. The h to h counts and the victories belong to Seles, but Martina had begun to slip from her best in 1988, and while she still had some 'great tennis' in her, she could not demand that it show up on command anymore, or that it stick around for an hour or two in a QF or semifinal. That 'great tennis' tended to go on a starbucks run at the most inopportune times, just like Evert's had from 1986 forward.

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I'd agree. the 1991 US Open shows that. She played an amazing match to get to the final that year then in the finals she was a totally different woman. It wasn't nerves or fear, she was a veteran, it was just she couldn't on demand keep that level anymore mentally. Her physical longevity was an amazing thing, but her pure peak mental level was really from 1982-1987 maybe arguably 1989 was a small return to it. Really after 1989 the only tournament that brought out the amazing killer Martina was Wimbledon. Other than that it was clear she wasn't the mental killer anymore even though physically she could hang and win tournaments.

boredone3456 said:

I'd agree. the 1991 US Open shows that. She played an amazing match to get to the final that year then in the finals she was a totally different woman. It wasn't nerves or fear, she was a veteran, it was just she couldn't on demand keep that level anymore mentally. Her physical longevity was an amazing thing, but her pure peak mental level was really from 1982-1987 maybe arguably 1989 was a small return to it. Really after 1989 the only tournament that brought out the amazing killer Martina was Wimbledon. Other than that it was clear she wasn't the mental killer anymore even though physically she could hang and win tournaments.

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And she had lost that crucial ability to accelerate and get into the net after her service. She ended up hitting a lot more awkward half volleys or being passed because further from the net than she would have been 4 years before. Watching that semifinal loss to Capriati at Wimbledon was sad. I imagine she had more trouble defending from the backcourt as well.

boredone3456 said:

I'd agree. the 1991 US Open shows that. She played an amazing match to get to the final that year then in the finals she was a totally different woman. It wasn't nerves or fear, she was a veteran, it was just she couldn't on demand keep that level anymore mentally. Her physical longevity was an amazing thing, but her pure peak mental level was really from 1982-1987 maybe arguably 1989 was a small return to it. Really after 1989 the only tournament that brought out the amazing killer Martina was Wimbledon. Other than that it was clear she wasn't the mental killer anymore even though physically she could hang and win tournaments.

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Graf got unlucky that year to run into the really hot Martina in the semis. I think she would have had a good shot at beating Seles at that years Open, especialy seeing their encounter on hard courts earlier that year.

BTURNER said:

you are going to need to define 'power' baseliner, and show me that Connolly and Moody were more powerful than Evert or at least show that they were as powerful as Graf got to be on the forehand wing by 1988. You are not seriously going to tell me that you can learn anything about Evert's grass game from that 1989 match( the last match she ever played on grass in the last 3 months of her career) She defaulted in the 3rd round of the Pilkington Glass a week prior, and lost in the 2nd round in Toronto a month later. Those matches don't tell you anything either. That entire year was bizarre to say the least.

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Well Moody and Connolly were renowned for their power in their own eras. They were considered by far the hardest hitting women on tour, despite being baseliners (other than when Marble emerged at the very end of Moody's long career). Evert was quite powerful herself for her time, but she was not revered for her power like these women were. Connolly is basically said to be the Seles of her era in each respect- overpowering groundies off both sides with sharp angles, impeccable accuracy, first strike tennis including off the return of serve, amazing consistency while hitting so hard and close to the lines, and her mental approach, except more dominant than Seles and actually won on grass too. Their scorelines bear that out too, continually lopsided scores in the late round of majors indicate and overpowering playing style, and in Connolly's case when there was some competition level in the womens game too (maybe not so much in Will's case). I would think it is very likely playing in the same era they would be bigger power players than Evert is.

More to the point though there arent really any good baseliners in Evert's day, forget power baseliners. Apart from Richey and Austin, Richey who was in her 30s and played her final years out during the early part of the Evert reign, and I am unaware of even playing Chris on grass; and Tracy who in her brief career didnt play Chris on grass after 77. Mandilikova are all courters with good baseline games, but who played at the net more than at the baseline. So there really is no reference. What good baseliners were in the top 10 or top 15 in the late 70s or 80s until Graf and Sabatini? For some reason they were non existent, apart from Evert. I guess Carling Bassett and Sylvia Hanika would be the best mostly baseline players to emerge in that period outside of Austin, and well, LOL!

I think if you want to look for a power player in the 20's you need to look to Lenglen. Many players that played against both Lenglen and Moody and partnered them in doubles said Lenglen was by far the better player and owned every kind of shot.

Molla Mallory who herself was a power baseliner for her time (she stated she didn't believe any woman could play the net game and believed in hitting the ball as hard as she could) said that every shot she sent to Lenglen came back at her harder then she sent it and Lenglen dominated her in the 2 full matches they played included once feeding her a double bagel.

I would love to see a Connolly vs Lenglen battle...those 2 were probably the hardest hitters pre 1960 with Marble being the one who could sneak into the discussion. Moody was more reputed for being cold and ruthless and never quitting...I think it was she who was nicknamed little miss poker face.

Moody was probably the Evert of her time, mentally strong but maybe not physically as much.

bump: I think the effort made by the OP deserves more comments.

Connolly G O A T