Wrist flick/snap is a must
- Thread starter enishi1357
- Start date
Ash_Smith
Legend
I don't know what to do with this...
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
I'm making popcorn, you want some?
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
How about this for unit turn 101? Ian has it that Fed turns the upper body 90 degrees to load up this forehand. I did not measure but it does look like some serious rotation:
You are right (inadvertently!). Watching Fed is inspirational. I have been hitting lazy ass forehands all week what with winter setting in and making the body feel stiff and sluggish and watching this video reminded me I need to be putting a lot of body into the forehands which I have probably stopped without realising it. As for those who are convinced it is not necessary and the magic is all in the arms, well, carry on and would love to hear about how it went as I don't mind emulating a lazy technique if it actually works. But my previous experience of playing cricket (albeit at a low level) tells me that leaning into the shot is important in ball striking sports. Since you use strings and not a solid layer of wood in tennis and a horizontal rather than vertical swing, it's all the more important. One thing I do agree with from your long post: power is more important. I don't know about good technique and all that but at any rate placement is far more important than power. In fact misdirected power taking the ball straight to the opponent's hand is a liability.
enishi1357
Semi-Pro
Lol I hope it's not going to cause injury. Either way I would still use it. I think it's just my hand getting use to the new mechanic. My racquet is consider heavy by racquet standard. Maybe ..... . Not sure what is a semi straight FH is, it's either a bent or a straight.
I define unit turn as intentionally (like thinking that in the exact moment) rotating the body to create power. Well that doesn't work for me for most shots (only certain shots). If anything it just cause inaccuracy. That's why I only use unit turn when I'm moving back to create a topspin defensive shot. For me at least, starting with the concept unit turn as foundation is the worse thing I could possibly do to myself when learning straight arm. It's hard enough keeping the accuracy and the form so the power is not necessary at least at my current level in the past. Now that I felt my mechanic is bit more complete, I still think unit turn is unnecessary unless the ball just floats there. I think our definitions of unit turn is not the same ....
One more thing, that video you post is in my opinion doesn't teach me a thing. Believe me, I watch those videos a thousands times (ok I'm exaggerating). Like all videos, it tells you what angle to hit and blah blah blah. OMG so pointless. Slow mo can only tell you so much. I mean it looks cool. It is actually a good video to compare against a slow mo of your own stroke. However, it doesn't tell you what is the objective of the stroke. I recommend for everyone to watch pro practice videos and develop your own hypotheses and test it out.
ok I watch a bit of the video. Totally missing the point. I'm sure it could teach you how to hit a pretty good FH maybe. But it is definitely not one of federer's secret. Maybe you have to pay to have access to the secret. Most of the video is pretty much stating the obvious. Not really telling you the defining quality of the stroke. I think it benefits beginner but probably useless for intermediate (around 3.0).
Again I emphasis control. I already explain how to gain impeccable control through my previous post hence why I do not repeat them. Another thought though. What makes federer great is his control. He doesn't hit harder than anyone because he doesn't need to. Hence he doesn't sweat as much as well. Ever wonder why he doesn't sweat that much? Because he hits differently than everyone else. It's not because his body is more suited for tennis or something similar to that. At least that's what I think. Another thing. Why do people hit using bent arm? shouldn't we be hitting using straight arm since we are more natural when we extend our arms (eg when we walk we don't bent our arms right?). The notion of hitting harder is what causing bent arm to manifest itself. Straight arm is a more natural way to hit when the objective is not base on hitting hard but rather control.
Anyways it's fun to chat here despite our difference in opinion. Troll or not I respect your opinion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and back to the drawing board. If not, maybe the next generation would be much more interesting.
tl;dr: Youtube's video only benefits beginners. Intermediate players should watch pro practice to learn the objective. Advance players like most on this forum would most likely not accept new ideas. I think my post is getting a bit long so most just skim through it ....
I define unit turn as intentionally (like thinking that in the exact moment) rotating the body to create power. Well that doesn't work for me for most shots (only certain shots). If anything it just cause inaccuracy. That's why I only use unit turn when I'm moving back to create a topspin defensive shot. For me at least, starting with the concept unit turn as foundation is the worse thing I could possibly do to myself when learning straight arm. It's hard enough keeping the accuracy and the form so the power is not necessary at least at my current level in the past. Now that I felt my mechanic is bit more complete, I still think unit turn is unnecessary unless the ball just floats there. I think our definitions of unit turn is not the same ....
One more thing, that video you post is in my opinion doesn't teach me a thing. Believe me, I watch those videos a thousands times (ok I'm exaggerating). Like all videos, it tells you what angle to hit and blah blah blah. OMG so pointless. Slow mo can only tell you so much. I mean it looks cool. It is actually a good video to compare against a slow mo of your own stroke. However, it doesn't tell you what is the objective of the stroke. I recommend for everyone to watch pro practice videos and develop your own hypotheses and test it out.
ok I watch a bit of the video. Totally missing the point. I'm sure it could teach you how to hit a pretty good FH maybe. But it is definitely not one of federer's secret. Maybe you have to pay to have access to the secret. Most of the video is pretty much stating the obvious. Not really telling you the defining quality of the stroke. I think it benefits beginner but probably useless for intermediate (around 3.0).
Again I emphasis control. I already explain how to gain impeccable control through my previous post hence why I do not repeat them. Another thought though. What makes federer great is his control. He doesn't hit harder than anyone because he doesn't need to. Hence he doesn't sweat as much as well. Ever wonder why he doesn't sweat that much? Because he hits differently than everyone else. It's not because his body is more suited for tennis or something similar to that. At least that's what I think. Another thing. Why do people hit using bent arm? shouldn't we be hitting using straight arm since we are more natural when we extend our arms (eg when we walk we don't bent our arms right?). The notion of hitting harder is what causing bent arm to manifest itself. Straight arm is a more natural way to hit when the objective is not base on hitting hard but rather control.
Anyways it's fun to chat here despite our difference in opinion. Troll or not I respect your opinion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and back to the drawing board. If not, maybe the next generation would be much more interesting.
tl;dr: Youtube's video only benefits beginners. Intermediate players should watch pro practice to learn the objective. Advance players like most on this forum would most likely not accept new ideas. I think my post is getting a bit long so most just skim through it ....
Ash_Smith
Legend
We do when we run..?
ARKustom93
Professional
Just read your very first and last post back-to-back, and since you're stressing the importance of 'control' so much, let me put it this way: if you were a tennis ball, you'd be quite difficult to get a handle on, bouncing all over the place like that ...
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
This thread is useless without a video
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
I fully agree that thinking about a unit turn when you are lining up your shot is not a good idea. So the right idea is to get in enough practice in drills that it becomes second nature and you don't have to consciously think about it at the time of making the shot. Deciding to abandon the unit turn altogether is to simply give up on an easy source of power. Can it be that you are really unaware of how the uncoiling motion of the upper body supplies power?
I did not post the video for reviews on what Ian said (which does not interest me much though I saw a live exhibit of point no.1 in Raonic's IPTL match against Nadal). Rather, the slo-mo of Fed hitting the forehand. The point is Fed does engage the body a lot in his forehands. You can watch a zillion videos of him hitting the forehand and it would still hold true; so it's not like Ian cherry picked one forehand to demonstrate the point. That is how Fed usually hits his forehand, especially the inside out forehand. And a good inside out forehand is a great shot to have, especially as your second shot.
Eh....you don't bend your arms when you walk because it's your legs that do the walking. Do you actually find a stiff marchpast straight-leg motion more natural than a normal walking motion which involves, ahem, bending the knee. I find it easier to control the forehand with a bent elbow but then you believe no unit turn is required to hit a forehand so I can't relate to your shot anyway, unless you post a video and it becomes clear what is actually happening.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Enishi,
You are a confused--if adamant--puppy. Hope your views don't lead to permanent injury.
You are a confused--if adamant--puppy. Hope your views don't lead to permanent injury.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Balla,
Yes I would like to see the video...
Yes I would like to see the video...
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Remember, the unit turn into the hot water cycle is face first!
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Like for the David Hume reference.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Move,
If you accept the personal relativity of the human understanding a lot of things in the world start to make sense. You also realize that you can relax on that quest for unanimity.
If you accept the personal relativity of the human understanding a lot of things in the world start to make sense. You also realize that you can relax on that quest for unanimity.
Quest for unanimity? That could be the title of a Monte Python movie.
The most we can hope for is to see a few different teams form up, so that we can pick one that seems rational to us. Heraclitus blamed others, including Pythagoras, for creating esoteric little theories about how things worked. He insisted that nature is one, so that we should eventually come to the same conclusion about physical causality, reality.
But there's an out in tennis: A winning game, style, may contain objective flaws. But are they flaws if the player consistently wins? I would say yes, but akin to the flaws in diamonds. Every natural diamond has at least one.
enishi1357
Semi-Pro
Random post,
After workout, I played some basketball. I discover some skills are transferable to basketball. The index finger is space apart from the rest of the fingers to not only hold more surface of the handle but also to initiate better control with the flick. I apply the same concept with basketball. I found using the index finger to grip the inline(?) of the basketball gets a better feel therefore more control and accuracy. It might not even has to be inline. Then using the index finger for control I flick the basketball. At times because unlike tennis the basketball is stationary so I had to generate all the power from my body. I found stepping the left foot forward as if close stance and unit turn to generate the power is the best combination.
There's a certain gratification seeing the basketball swoosh as oppose to a winner forehand. A swoosh says accuracy if it is not due to luck. A winner forehand just says you are better than the opponent.
I still maintain my view on unit turn. Basketball requires it because all the power is generated from your body. Tennis on the other hand gets power from opponent and yourself so unit turn isn't completely necessary.
After workout, I played some basketball. I discover some skills are transferable to basketball. The index finger is space apart from the rest of the fingers to not only hold more surface of the handle but also to initiate better control with the flick. I apply the same concept with basketball. I found using the index finger to grip the inline(?) of the basketball gets a better feel therefore more control and accuracy. It might not even has to be inline. Then using the index finger for control I flick the basketball. At times because unlike tennis the basketball is stationary so I had to generate all the power from my body. I found stepping the left foot forward as if close stance and unit turn to generate the power is the best combination.
There's a certain gratification seeing the basketball swoosh as oppose to a winner forehand. A swoosh says accuracy if it is not due to luck. A winner forehand just says you are better than the opponent.
I still maintain my view on unit turn. Basketball requires it because all the power is generated from your body. Tennis on the other hand gets power from opponent and yourself so unit turn isn't completely necessary.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Curiosity,
Yes on the Greek philosophy. Crazy thread.
Yes on the Greek philosophy. Crazy thread.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
The unit turn is not completely necessary! Hmmm? I don't believe that you are going to get many converts to this eccentric, if not bizarre, way of thinking. Can tennis strokes be performed w/o a unit turn? Sure, but is this going happen very often for top players. Methinks not? Can you provide any examples of elite players that do not employ a unit turn on nearly all of their strokes? If so, pls document.
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Fxanimator1
Hall of Fame
I think sometimes people's minds tell them they are seeing certain things, but if they really studied the footage, would see what's actually
happening and not what they think they saw.
Federer's laid back wrist, transitioning to a neutral position at contact, can appear as if he's "snapping" his wrist actively
rather than being a release of energy, which the rest of the body has supplied...The end of the whip that people are seeing might be perceived as, "Ah-ha! that! is
where the power must be coming from".
happening and not what they think they saw.
Federer's laid back wrist, transitioning to a neutral position at contact, can appear as if he's "snapping" his wrist actively
rather than being a release of energy, which the rest of the body has supplied...The end of the whip that people are seeing might be perceived as, "Ah-ha! that! is
where the power must be coming from".
enishi1357
Semi-Pro
I admit there's some turning involve but to me that doesn't count as a unit turn in my opinion. A unit turn is an intentional turn to generate power. Most of the time, I am turning not to generate power but rather to run or back track to the side instead of split step to the side. Close stance and taking it early would be my weapon of choice than unit turn.
An analogy would be the game pong. There's no turn involve. I mean it might not be a very good analogy considering its a video game but the concept is the same. I believe hitting hard to a certain point is past the point of efficient that it became inefficient. With my mechanic, unit turn doesn't add much value. unless I'm trying to blast it to the center, I'm more concern about placement.
To Fxanimator1: I know exactly what you are talking about. I record my strokes extensively and I know when a footage does not exactly match the concept. Perhaps my concepts are being misunderstood or I'm not being clear enough. Either way, it's not snapping. To reiterate, I should really change the title but I'm not sure how.
I think the hardest part about learning straight arm is to forget everything you learn about tennis. The mechanic is so different. But either way, the emphasis is always on control. Thus I believe tennis has taken the easy route to gaining control the easy way through the two hand backhand. It is possible to gain the same control through the 1hbh through everything I said thus far.
My point is a bent forehand has totally different mechanic. I had that once and heck I use unit turn (intentional turn to generate power) because I can get away with doing that due to the control from bent forehand. The straight arm is totally different in that regard. A unit turn would make things worse. What does this mean. Well I believe a straight arm is the harder learn stroke. So if a unit turn is not necessary then perhaps it does for bent as well.
I also think there's a huge misconception on how fast or hard the players are hitting. Although they are hitting insanely fast, that doesn't mean they are hitting hard (I meant control still comes first). Watch them practice and then watch them play a real match. They are hitting hard but I think they are placing more emphasis on placement.
I don't have much credential to back up my claims. However, I started recording and developing my strokes for the straight forehand since 6 years ago. I have gone through countless experiment and each time I judge each recording at the highest standard (practice videos of pros). I look at it from the conceptual point and also from the theory. Because I don't excessively practice, I eliminate the factor that consistent practice result in better performance so that leaves only the concept and experience as the only indicators. Because I don't get coaching or play matches, I eliminate the factor that some ill inform players would channel false information to me (as my friend who is somewhat good did to me). I mean I don't want to rag on your guys but have you ever record yourself and take a look at how different your form is compare to other pros. I have and believe me I came a long way.
tl;dr: The wrist is stronger than you think. The problem is with most of you guys doesn't know how to use the wrist with control and thus abuse it causing injuries. It is not a snap but a flick. There's a difference. It's similar to the 1hbh flick. Can someone who can at least do a 1hbh flick chime in on this. I'm getting tire....
Fxanimator1
Hall of Fame
If you post one of these latest videos, we could see this in action, first hand.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Yes. Favor us with your results. Let us see a video of these great insights in action.
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
no one else can chime in because apparently you are the only one who understands how to do this wrist flick to generate all your power. since it's tiring for you to try to explain this revolutionary new technique in words, i recommend you post a video of yourself performing this technique. after all, there's the saying, "a picture is worth a thousand words". in this case, a video here would be worth a million words.
Todd Hicks
Rookie
Based on personal experience, I know that you can generate more topspin and power by rolling your hips back and forth as you hit the ball. By the way, you should never hit the ball with a straight arm because that is bad fundamentals. Raise your racket head over your head then bring it to your opposite shoulder to hit each ball.
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
what does this mean? how exactly should one do this?
Ash_Smith
Legend
^^^ i'm hoping that @Todd Hicks post is a joke and a bit of a jab at the OP???
Fxanimator1
Hall of Fame
It's actually very hard to tell on TT, given the likes of Sureshs and such.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
There will be no video.
Todd Hicks
Rookie
Raise your racket head above your head then bring it toward the ground then bring it toward your shoulder. The motion should be 12 to 6 to 12:00
They call that PTD - Pat the Dinosaur, judging by the dynamic range your motion entails
Fxanimator1
Hall of Fame
Wholly crap! I think you're "Curiosity's" alter-ego, his anti-hero, this is the stuff of comic book legend.
Todd Hicks
Rookie
If you want to call my advice crap, go ahead. It's the truth. You're supposed to come under the ball in a clockwise motion.
Ash_Smith
Legend
^^^What you actually said though is this in bold, where you missed quite an important step!
However, i'm more intrigued by what you mean in the part highlighted in red???
Todd Hicks
Rookie
If you roll your hips forward as you hit the ball, you can put more power into your stroke. It can really improve a weak backhand too.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Still have no idea what this means. Anterior rotation of the pelvis???
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Ash_Smith
Legend
Sorry, might just be me being thick, but I'm not getting this at all.
Is it like this...
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Ash_Smith
Legend
Can't imagine why you would want to have anterior pelvic rotation though - it can cause all kinds of horrible injury complications.
@Todd Hicks needs to clarify???
Ash, that's not part of the topspin forehand. She's clearly teaching "preparation to receive service."
Fxanimator1
Hall of Fame
I've always said, "tennis is like twerking"!
Video or entire thread is rendered null and void...
Be careful what you wish for.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
gosh I hope that's what he means, and posts a vid to demonstrate... then this thread will become immortal.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Vanhalen you make an excellent point.
This is the ugliest shot in bball, and unfortunately, it belongs to my Bulls. It sounds like he's doing what you're describing:
1. Flick of the wrist
2. Stepping foot forward
3. Using closed stance, instead of lining up square to basket
I had to look it up after seeing him use it in a game today. Didn't know there's a name for this: the tornado shot.
