Djokovic ball toss, a smart idea

Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I find Djokovic’s serve toss very smart. I tried to copy that last night. His tossing hand starting position is much higher than others. Shorter distance of the tossing arm movement makes sense for a more accurate consistent toss. Federer style that starts from inner side of his thigh is a much bigger motion . More error prone I believe.
Another related benefit is the torso being more upright at the beginning of the toss with Djokovic. As Federer goes all the way down near his thigh he’s still in somewhat bent forward position.



 
J

jxs653

Professional
Curious said:
His tossing hand starting position is much higher than others. Shorter distance of the tossing arm movement makes sense for a more accurate consistent toss. Federer style that starts from inner side of his thigh is a much bigger motion . More error prone I believe.
Click to expand...
But isn't rifle more consistent than pistol?
 
Mountain Ghost

Mountain Ghost

Professional
I have been observing, testing and teaching the toss for many years ... and EVERY ONE of my students has a more consistent toss when it is longer ... and evenly "paced" ... up from the thigh ... ... ... and not so "jerky" ... from up higher ... as you are suggesting.

The only toss style I would advise even less ... is where you start up high (where you are suggesting) ... go DOWN ... and then have to change directions at the bottom and come back up again.

Perhaps you just have a supernatural ability to make a rushed and more abbreviated toss work ... and so sticking to it for yourself might be okay. I just wouldn't be out there teaching it.

~ MG
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Mountain Ghost said:
The only toss style I would advise even less ... is where you start up high (where you are suggesting) ... go DOWN ... and then have to change directions at the bottom and come back up again.
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Yes, I figured that going down a little then going up feels better.
Also one of my friends commented that longer tossing movement might be more effortless due to momentum building up, especially if you have a higher toss. My toss is relatively on the lower side so it’s not a problem for me. Anyway I accept that it may not work for everyone but works for Djoker and me.:)
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
Curious said:
I find Djokovic’s serve toss very smart. I tried to copy that last night. His tossing hand starting position is much higher than others. Shorter distance of the tossing arm movement makes sense for a more accurate consistent toss. Federer style that starts from inner side of his thigh is a much bigger motion . More error prone I believe.
Another related benefit is the torso being more upright at the beginning of the toss with Djokovic. As Federer goes all the way down near his thigh he’s still in somewhat bent forward position.



Click to expand...
I like the idea. Your toss looks compact and efficient to me. A shorter toss 'should' allow you to place the ball in the slot more repeatedly - less to go wrong. My toss is a shocker and is a huge source of frustration, because when its right my action is good and I hit adequate serves for the leagues I play. I am going to give this a go later today. Agree one shoe size does not fit all.
 
Dragy

Dragy

Legend
Curious said:
I find Djokovic’s serve toss very smart. I tried to copy that last night. His tossing hand starting position is much higher than others. Shorter distance of the tossing arm movement makes sense for a more accurate consistent toss. Federer style that starts from inner side of his thigh is a much bigger motion . More error prone I believe.
Another related benefit is the torso being more upright at the beginning of the toss with Djokovic. As Federer goes all the way down near his thigh he’s still in somewhat bent forward position.



Click to expand...
Upright torso is (y)(y)(y) that Fed/Sampras bend-over spoils so many rec imitators, I believe...
Shorter motion is good for lowish toss, don't see issues - it has enough power to not be jerky but just put the ball where you need is. Longer tossing action should be better combined with longer windup - not speaking of "up together", but the rhythm/tempo better be corresponding in the whole motion, starting with toss. Long tossing swing followed by brief abbreviated windup might be sub-optimal, in my opinoin.

PS: Djokovic current serving motion is very good, in my opinion. Product of dedicated optimization and polish. It's not the only "perfect" option, but very round and complete overall.
 
SystemicAnomaly

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
I don't actually teach or encourage this abbreviated toss. If a student can execute it and produce a consistent or controlled toss, I certainly would not discourage it. But most I've seen who try it often end up with a rushed / jerky toss motion. Often not smooth / fluid and often not consistent.
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
SystemicAnomaly said:
Andy Roddick wants his royalty check for this. It is the Andy Roddick ball toss, not the Novak Djoko ball toss. Actually, I don't really know if ARod was the first pro to popularize this abbreviated toss.

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Roddick serve was one of the weirdest feeling motions I’ve tried in tennis. That he also lifts the racket up along with the tossing hand going up at the beginning of the toss is just crazy. It was simply impossible to emulate for me. Once the tossing hand starts going up my racket has to go down.
 
SystemicAnomaly

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
3loudboys said:
Rafa starts fairly high on his toss as well.

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I believe that is something that has evolved over time. Earlier in his career his toss start was much lower than it is today. He's tweaked / altered his serve quite a few times in the past coupla decades. His toss may have started becoming somewhat abbreviated in the late 00s. And has become even more abbreviated in the past decade or so.
 
A

Aretium

Hall of Fame
Curious said:
I find Djokovic’s serve toss very smart. I tried to copy that last night. His tossing hand starting position is much higher than others. Shorter distance of the tossing arm movement makes sense for a more accurate consistent toss. Federer style that starts from inner side of his thigh is a much bigger motion . More error prone I believe.
Another related benefit is the torso being more upright at the beginning of the toss with Djokovic. As Federer goes all the way down near his thigh he’s still in somewhat bent forward position.



Click to expand...
Actually no. Fed starts his toss from the exact place every time. Djokovic because it's a floating point, will be more inconsistent. Yes it's a short distance. I changed someone's toss from djok style to fed and it really improved their toss.

So feds toss starts on his inner thigh on the same spot. I copied this year's ago and it really helps.
 
N

nyta2

Hall of Fame
i used to short toss, and found it staccato (need to toss faster to achieve similar long toss height), lacking rhythm, and generally inconsistent
switched to long toss (from thigh), found that i could sloooow down the toss, and for me was more consistent... hand on thigh is also a starting check point for me...
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
With a higher starting point, smaller distance of tossing, I can simply lift the ball up to where I want it to be instead of “tossing” it. I have a good feeling of how high I’m starting it every time, like many other things it becomes automatic and second nature with practice, so not sure how crucial it is to have a “constant” starting point like inner thigh in terms of consistency. Let’s put it this way, it should be 100% automatic for both Djokovic and Federer but Djoker imo has the advantage of smaller distance and being upright during the tossing.
Anyway I guess we made our points re pros and cons of each style and there’s no point turning it into ‘ mine is bigger than yours’.:D
 
Tennease

Tennease

Legend
I believe this tossing start position give more stress to your upper arms muscles/ shoulder.

If you start from lowest point, your upper arm and shoulder should feel more relaxed because your arms are hanging loosely and you will have a more fluid serving motion overall.

I wonder if this what causes Djokovic's shoulder / upper arm issues.
 
SystemicAnomaly

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Curious said:
With a higher starting point, smaller distance of tossing, I can simply lift the ball up to where I want it to be instead of “tossing” it. I have a good feeling of how high I’m starting it every time, like many other things it becomes automatic and second nature with practice, so not sure how crucial it is to have a “constant” starting point like inner thigh in terms of consistency. Let’s put it this way, it should be 100% automatic for both Djokovic and Federer but Djoker imo has the advantage of smaller distance and being upright during the tossing.
Anyway I guess we made our points re pros and cons of each style and there’s no point turning it into ‘ mine is bigger than yours’.:D
Click to expand...
From a conventional low starting position, it should also have a feeling of a 'lift' rather than a throw or a toss. For me, the longer excursion feels more like a lift than the abbreviated motion.
 
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Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
SystemicAnomaly said:
From a conventional low starting position, it should also have a feeling of a 'lift' rather than a throw or a toss. For me, the longer excursion feels more like a lift the abbreviated version.
Click to expand...
I see what you mean. I probably like it only for two reasons:
Shorter distance of tossing motion
More upright body at the beginning of the toss.
 
Fintft

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
SystemicAnomaly said:
From a conventional low starting position, it should also have a feeling of a 'lift' rather than a throw or a toss. For me, the longer excursion feels more like a lift the abbreviated version.
Click to expand...

Same for me, due to the reason nyta2s ays bellow (and as I was advised by a coach to slow down the tossing arm):

nyta2 said:
i used to short toss, and found it staccato (need to toss faster to achieve similar long toss height), lacking rhythm, and generally inconsistent
switched to long toss (from thigh), found that i could sloooow down the toss, and for me was more consistent... hand on thigh is also a starting check point for me...
Click to expand...
 
M

Mitcheson

Rookie
Novak seems to start at about navel level with his fingers round the ball a bit whereas Rafa starts slightly higher at about solar plexus level with his tossing hand almost flat and just lifts it until stopping at the top so the ball keeps rising off his hand.

It seems generally agreed that it should always be released about eye level which makes sense because that is a bit above horizontal and therefore brings the ball closer in than a full arm length away according to the speed, height and drop to contact. The speed of the movement at release point is of course crucial and affected by confidence, nerves etc.

It seems reasonably easy to understand but hard to execute ... for some people, including me.
 
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Rosstour

Rosstour

G.O.A.T.
Abbreviating motions isn't always the answer. Full motions do take longer, but they dissipate motion and allow for constant movement.

My racquet drops to my feet during my service motion, for example. Just like Federer, I grew up watching Pete and just tried to copy him.

I know Federer isn't very good and Djokovic and Rafa obviously have better serves, but we all seem to agree on PETE having the best serve of all time. So here it is, and watch where his toss starts.

 
Raul_SJ

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Mitcheson said:
Novak seems to start at about navel level with his fingers round the ball a bit whereas Rafa starts slightly higher at about solar plexus level with his tossing hand almost flat and just lifts it until stopping at the top so the ball keeps rising off his hand.

It seems generally agreed that it should always be released about eye level which makes sense because that is a bit above horizontal and therefore brings the ball closer in than a full arm length away according to the speed, height and drop to contact. The speed of the movement at release point is of course crucial and affected by confidence, nerves etc.

It seems reasonably easy to understand but hard to execute ... for some people, including me.
Click to expand...

Do not see any advantage starting toss arm high. But will have to try it out and see if it helps toss accuracy.

Toss arm starting high and going up would seem to promote tension.

It feels much more relaxed and natural to go down to the thigh and then back up.

final_60ff2bb5bdc8c9010f0af343_924521.gif
 
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