How to develop an accurate ball toss?

[Nacho]

Its tough to advise without really seeing what you are doing. If you are moving other parts of your body it might be throwing off your toss by adjusting your arm movement during the stroke. Best thing to try and do is move your arm towards the net post every time you toss. you want the height in the middle range, not too short or too high. Some coaches teach hitting your arm off your quad, but I think keeping the motion on a fixated point like the post is good enough. Keeps you momentum forward, and will help negate any weird body movements.

 

[PDJ]

I have been having issues with my ball toss. A few years ago I decided to try to model my serve on aspects of Sam Groth’s, in a bid to get more leg drive and hip drive along with more shoulder rotation. I thought maybe his toss had been worked around the power producing aspects of his serve and therefore may be a necessary evil, so initially I tried to copy his tossing technique. I have a very flat first serve with a 12.30 ball toss and a heavily spun (kicker) second serve with an 11.30 ball toss. My first serve on a good day is my biggest strength, my second serve is quite vulnerable (to say the least) against high level opponents. Since I changed my technique I have been more prone to double faults due to errant ball tosses.


I read on a previous thread here about “tossing yips” that you should keep your elbow (extension) and wrist (flexion) out of the action as when you perform the actions mentioned you tend to get rotation at those joints, at least the potential for it comes into play. Someone also mentioned that most people they’ve seen who start their action with the ball below hip height (like Groth) tend to have erratic tosses. This makes sense to me as a longer more deliberate pendulum of a tossing action is likely to be more accurate in my opinion.

Does anyone have any words of wisdom on optimal technique for an accurate ball toss and/or drills that can improve your ball toss accuracy.

There are good slow mo's of the Groth ball toss @ 1:22, 1:55, 2:31 (can people explain why this technique is prone to inconsistency as it seems to be).

Don't know a great deal about Groth (doubles for Australia aside) but he seems very stagnant after his serve.
Not really advice for you, but an observation.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Well, consider, how would you toss an egg or hold an ice cream cone, versus a perfectly round ball. You hold it by the sides right? From that position, it's harder to flick the wrist (not saying it won't happen, but it's not as dramatic and you can work it out). The palm up technique gives plenty of room to flick your wrist. But if you don't, it's easier to release with, since you can simply have it rest on the finger tips and let it go.

Other things you can do is slow down the serve rhythm. Start with lots of casual warm up serves, and slowly build up speed while maintaining technique, but keep that relaxed feeling.

Also, extend the tossing arm past the release point, don't just stop the arm. Let it continue up.

Sometimes, I ignore the toss itself and think of smoothly getting into my trophy pose and let the toss take care of itself. Usually works. (Also, I feel like I toss better when I'm looking at the service box when I toss, so I might do better when I don't focus on the toss.) Alternatively, you can use the older method of tossing into the hit, rather than tossing then hitting the toss. Basically you toss into the path of the swing. It's relatively high tempo.

I agree with McLennan completely.

 

[TennisCJC]

Groth has a very low ball toss. If you toss low you have much less time between release and impact. Low toss timing probably differs considerably from your earlier toss timing. ? Roscoe Tanner also had a very low toss. He said in his autobiography that the short time between his release and impact along with his very heavy pace threw off the returners. I believe that a low toss forces a quick start and fast motion as there can be no waiting for the toss to drop.

Before copying any tossing technique you should confirm that you have the same serving technique with high speed video.

waiting on the ball to drop is greatly exaggerated in my view. the racket head can comfortably go from trophy pause to contact before the ball drops 1 inch.

 

[Limpinhitter]

I learn to serve back in 1962, so I learned under the rule of one foot in constant contact with the court surface, not allowed to jump. So, this
led to using a pinpoint type serve to increase leg drive and landing inside baseline with my right foot. Using momentum I was able to go high on
my toes of both feet after bring rear foot forward into a deep knee bend (knees bending towards right fence at about a forward 30-35 degree
angle) really pushing up with the back leg, my body would lean over the baseline caused by the left hip moving forward. If there was no ball to
hit, I would have probably fallen flat on my face. However, as I push down on the court with the rear leg, the deep trophy position I was in caused
my body to lean far past the baseline as I finished the serve. At the time I was 6 foot 4 inches and my contact point with the ball was about 9 feet
to 9-6 inches above the court.

I was asked by an X-Pro to help teach his students because of serving ability. The X-Pro saw old still photos of my serve and commented one
about the forward and up diagonal push and two that my racquet hand palm finished parallel facing the right fence. I still use basically the same
motion today. However, I can use a jump motion landing on the left foot, but it is too tiring at age of 71.

Now the toss motion can be parallel with the baseline or more to the front. If parallel, the ball travels up and also out in front in an upside down
letter J. The ball comes back toward your body so that as the hips and shoulders uncoil the ball is directly out in front or over your right ear. Now
I prefer directly out in front over my head as I can use the same toss for more than one serve, not giving away whether I am hitting flat, topspin
slice or kick. Now, a quick note, if you want to hit American Twist, you don't really need to arch your back. Just a deep knee bend which causes
your back to angle to the left side of the court, but allows it to remain relatively straight. Then keeping the left shoulder facing the net hammer
up and pronate. Don't allow the shoulders to rotate towards the net.

Regarding the concept of hammering. Let's call the Continental Grip a hammer grip. Most of us have used a hammer at some point in our life.
Consider this, using a hammering motion, the edge of the racquet is leading. The racquet is directly behind the right shoulder. In fact you could
grab the racquet head with your left hand under your right armpit. Get the picture? Now as you hammer up at a nail high on a wall (as high as you
can reach) the problem is the ball toss is on your left side, thus uncoil the hips and shoulders and pronate (forearm rotation) to bring the strings to bear.

The problem I see the most often is the racquet take back ends up with the racquet head behind the left shoulder or mid-back with the strings
facing up towards the sky. If your doing this your pushing too much air resistance and the centrifugal force will move the racquet head out and
away from you body making it hard to pronate as your forearm is forced to resist being supined. Therefore, try to keep the racquet head as
close as possible behind you right shoulder, depending on you flexibility. Also, lead the hammer high on a wall motion leading with the racquet
edge.

Once, the pieces of the entire serve are put together and you have a relaxed fluid rhythm, the ball toss becomes almost automatic as you
will find where the ball needs to be in order to hit it.

I could go into more minute detail as the serve has always been my favorite stroke, especially since I played serve and volley on fast hardcourt.
Why go into long baseline rallies when the point could be won in 2-3 shots. You know, serve, approach volley, and volley put away, point over.
Next, rinse repeat. Thus old time serve and volley players make good doubles players because their schooled in get to the net pronto.

Good luck developing a consistent toss. However, concentrate on the service motion progression. The toss will take care of itself.

Aloha

FYI, the Continental grip is not synonymous with a hammer grip. A hammer grip is a compact grip with little or no spread between the fingers. Any grip can be a hammer grip or a spread grip.

 

[kramer woodie]

FYI, the Continental grip is not synonymous with a hammer grip. A hammer grip is a compact grip with little or no spread between the fingers. Any grip can be a hammer grip or a spread grip.

Picky, picky, and very picky! The illustration was using the racquet like a hammering motion. Leading with the edge. Nothing and I mean nothing was construed that the fingers are to all be touching or even spread. But whatever, you got your jollies, good for you. It's obvious you missed the entire
concept.

Aloha

 

[Arun s]

I have been having issues with my ball toss. A few years ago I decided to try to model my serve on aspects of Sam Groth’s, in a bid to get more leg drive and hip drive along with more shoulder rotation. I thought maybe his toss had been worked around the power producing aspects of his serve and therefore may be a necessary evil, so initially I tried to copy his tossing technique. I have a very flat first serve with a 12.30 ball toss and a heavily spun (kicker) second serve with an 11.30 ball toss. My first serve on a good day is my biggest strength, my second serve is quite vulnerable (to say the least) against high level opponents. Since I changed my technique I have been more prone to double faults due to errant ball tosses.


I read on a previous thread here about “tossing yips” that you should keep your elbow (extension) and wrist (flexion) out of the action as when you perform the actions mentioned you tend to get rotation at those joints, at least the potential for it comes into play. Someone also mentioned that most people they’ve seen who start their action with the ball below hip height (like Groth) tend to have erratic tosses. This makes sense to me as a longer more deliberate pendulum of a tossing action is likely to be more accurate in my opinion.

Does anyone have any words of wisdom on optimal technique for an accurate ball toss and/or drills that can improve your ball toss accuracy.

There are good slow mo's of the Groth ball toss @ 1:22, 1:55, 2:31 (can people explain why this technique is prone to inconsistency as it seems to be).

I believe you must incorporate your ball toss into the overall serve motion. Not as a separate entity. Go up to net and have someone throw or hit the ball to you for an overhead. Now, instead of striking it position yourself correctly under it while your racket is in the dangle position behind your back. Now catch the ball with other (non racket) arm extended up and forward. Imagine you are catching it in line with where you would strike it, only a bit lower obviously since the racket could reach further. Make sure you weight is on front foot, or forward as you lean into the catch. After several of these drills and getting good at it, go back to the baseline and do the serve motion. Only, at this point try to toss it as you shift your weight forward and then catch it, not just point at it, (as some people suggest) with tossing arm extended. Your weight must be forward on front foot at this point as you attempt this.
Eventually, sooner than later you should be able to deliver a consistent serve. Cheers!

 

[Fintft]

I believe you must incorporate your ball toss into the overall serve motion. Not as a separate entity. Go up to net and have someone throw or hit the ball to you for an overhead. Now, instead of striking it position yourself correctly under it while your racket is in the dangle position behind your back. Now catch the ball with other (non racket) arm extended up and forward. Imagine you are catching it in line with where you would strike it, only a bit lower obviously since the racket could reach further. Make sure you weight is on front foot, or forward as you lean into the catch. After several of these drills and getting good at it, go back to the baseline and do the serve motion. Only, at this point try to toss it as you shift your weight forward and then catch it, not just point at it, (as some people suggest) with tossing arm extended. Your weight must be forward on front foot at this point as you attempt this.
Eventually, sooner than later you should be able to deliver a consistent serve. Cheers!

The only part I'm not so sure about is having the weight on the front foot (that's actually a problem for me, as I'm having too much weight on the front foot at times during the toss).

 

[Pete Player]

I agree on the idea of medling the toss as one integrated piece of the serve motion.

For me the best mental image for relatively consistent toss has been actually not tossing, but building momentum to swing the tossing arm while taking the racket hand back and up.

When the toss arm swings upwards, I just sort of wait for the right moment to let go of the ball releasing it to the desired spot in the air.

Depending on where to direct the ball to go, you either wait a bit more or release it early. Neutral for me is releasing about eye-high.

If you have the ball "deep" in your palm, it may have significant amount of spin rolling off the finger tips, yet you only lift the arm in calm and still manner. And the toss remain clean of significant micro-moves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HuusHould]

Don't know a great deal about Groth (doubles for Australia aside) but he seems very stagnant after his serve.
Not really advice for you, but an observation.

He really swings the back leg up into what has sometimes been referred to as similar to the arabesque ballet position, personally I think it's a different position given the leg is bent after the serve. I think if you swing the right leg up too high it takes a bit of time to get moving after the serve. I agree it's super important to be quick to move after the serve, as Craig O'Shannessy says you should always assume the serve is coming back and be looking to hit a forehand as your first shot in the rally.

I agree on the idea of medling the toss as one integrated piece of the serve motion.

For me the best mental image for relatively consistent toss has been actually not tossing, but building momentum to swing the tossing arm while taking the racket hand back and up.

When the toss arm swings upwards, I just sort of wait for the right moment to let go of the ball releasing it to the desired spot in the air.

Depending on where to direct the ball to go, you either wait a bit more or release it early. Neutral for me is releasing about eye-high.

If you have the ball "deep" in your palm, it may have significant amount of spin rolling off the finger tips, yet you only lift the arm in calm and still manner. And the toss remain clean of significant micro-moves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find the ice-cream cone grip (finger and thumb) that people have recommended on here, which apparently Federer uses, and focusing on keeping the same pace with the tossing arm the whole way through the toss (which ends with the tossing arm pointing to the sky) has resulted in me knowing exactly when to release the ball and made my toss a lot calmer. It almost always has a little bit of spin, but I've noticed this is the same with the Fed's toss. I think it eliminates the micro moves you refer to.

 

[HuusHould]

Its tough to advise without really seeing what you are doing. If you are moving other parts of your body it might be throwing off your toss by adjusting your arm movement during the stroke. Best thing to try and do is move your arm towards the net post every time you toss. you want the height in the middle range, not too short or too high. Some coaches teach hitting your arm off your quad, but I think keeping the motion on a fixated point like the post is good enough. Keeps you momentum forward, and will help negate any weird body movements.

I'm forever making micro adjustments to my serve technique and most times I do so, the toss is thrown out of whack. Although the ice-cream cone/egg grip seems to be a big part of the solution. I will try using the net-post (or something similar) as a reference point for my tossing arm.

 

[dimkin]

interestingly - what really helped me was:
I tried to toss with my right hand (I am right handed) just to see how I do it - and voila my toss was consistent - same height, same location wherever I needed.
So I tried to analyze what I do with my right that I don't do with my left ... and I realized how differently I cupped the ball and what my natural palm movement was when the arm was raised - I tried doing the same with my left, and my toss improved drastically.

 

[sureshs]

interestingly - what really helped me was:
I tried to toss with my right hand (I am right handed) just to see how I do it - and voila my toss was consistent - same height, same location wherever I needed.
So I tried to analyze what I do with my right that I don't do with my left ... and I realized how differently I cupped the ball and what my natural palm movement was when the arm was raised - I tried doing the same with my left, and my toss improved drastically.

That is a novel idea

 

[heninfan99]

Was watching Youzhny today. His toss is pretty interesting. Very simple.

 

[heninfan99]

@Shroud , @heninfan99

 

[HuusHould]

Was watching Youzhny today. His toss is pretty interesting. Very simple.

Yes, it is a very simple tossing action, he seems to keep his arm straight the whole way and goes right up till the arm is pointing to the sky. It's very much a lagging action he has (the swing is behind the toss, as opposed to the classical almost down together and up together). Wayno Elderton says this is the most common action on the WTA tour. With abbreviated and classical being more prevalent on the ATP tour.

 

[janky]

So HuusHould, is your toss perfect now?

 

[chikoo]

Groth has a very low ball toss. If you toss low you have much less time between release and impact. Low toss timing probably differs considerably from your earlier toss timing. ? Roscoe Tanner also had a very low toss. He said in his autobiography that the short time between his release and impact along with his very heavy pace threw off the returners. I believe that a low toss forces a quick start and fast motion as there can be no waiting for the toss to drop.

Before copying any tossing technique you should confirm that you have the same serving technique with high speed video.

u bet.
Too low and you have less time.
Too high and u can lose focus.
I know I did lost focus when I tried the super high toss serve.
Settled on one that fit my instincts/reactions, which is very close to Groth's serve.

 

[LeeD]

The reason it still comes down to around 50,000 serves .......
There are over 25, and as many as over 100 different setups and techniques for tossing the ball to serve for player's of at least 4.5 level of play.
How can you know which ONE of these techniques and setups works for YOU?
Gotta try at least half of them, at least.
Then you gotta hit at least 100 serves with those you try.
Then you narrow it down to maybe 10 different combinations.
Then you hit at least 500 with each combination.
Then you narrow it down some more, maybe 5 combinations.
There are layoffs, injuries, soreness, and meanderings involved.
Now, how many serve tosses to get close to the ONE perfect toss for your FOUR different serves to THREE different locations each?

 

[Curious]

Whether I use an ice cone grip or palm up is immaterial as both work.

I believe the cone grip is significantly better than palm up as it eliminates the adverse effects of wrist flexion which could be more problematic than radial flexion/deviation.

 

[GregSV]

If you have kids or a wife/gf who's the sportive type, toss tennis balls over to each other leisurely to train that weaker tossing arm. Make this a daily habit too, besides your 'backyard hours' where you practice your real toss. I did (still do) this wih my son it improved both our tosses.

 

[heninfan99]

Yes, it is a very simple tossing action, he seems to keep his arm straight the whole way and goes right up till the arm is pointing to the sky.

Just noticed he moves his front foot and therefore stands back a bit to compensate.

 

[chikoo]

Just keep tossing it till it works for you.

 

[mcs1970]

I just noticed the Sam Groth video and realized that without ever watching Groth, just through trial and error, I have a very similar motion, except that I toss the ball a little bit more overhead which gives me more spin but less pace. I struggled for a long time with my toss and followed so many tips to fix it. It just made my serve worse. Ultimately what fixed my serve was to just not focus on the toss. Changing my serving motion and focusing on the loop my racquet makes has made my serve very consistent, even in windy conditions. I still don't toss well enough to precisely control different serves, but I serve consistently with good pace, even on 2nd serves. If I had fixated on the toss, I'd have quit tennis by now. That's how bad my serve issues were affecting me before. Unless you're trying to be a 5.0+ type player and gain precise control over your different serves, does the precision of the toss really matter?

 

[HuusHould]

So HuusHould, is your toss perfect now?

Thanks for asking janky. Unfortunately I still have issues. It is a bit better than what it was. I think maybe I wasn't quite doing the ice cream cone grip properly. I was only having the thumb and index finger touching the ball, whereas watching Brenty Abel's "7 secrets to emulating Federer's ball toss" on youtube it would seem the middle finger is in fact in contact with the ball…..

 

[HuusHould]

I believe the cone grip is significantly better than palm up as it eliminates the adverse effects of wrist flexion which could be more problematic than radial flexion/deviation.

My hallucination is the same, but I don't think I'm doing it right as yet. How much input do you think the middle finger should have in the grip? I was literally only touching the ball with my thumb and index finger, I may have misinterpreted some advice from this thread…..

 

[Chas Tennis]

The first issue would be to determine the type of serving technique being used.

1) For the high level serve the hand path has to be to the right of the ball at impact in order to put the racket head on the ball because of the ISR and the forearm-to-racket angle. The high level serve has been researched, described and there are many pictures and videos.

2) For a Waiter's Tray I believe that the hand path is more directly toward the ball. How spin is applied has not been videoed and analyzed as far as I have found. The WT has hardly been described. See Hammer that Serve Youtube by Pat Dougherty, but spin is not addressed.

3) For other techniques?

My best rough estimates for the serving techniques in use by active players -
1) 20% high level technique using internal shoulder rotation. Used by 99% or less of top 100 ATP players.
2) 50% Waiter's Tray technique.
3) 30% Miscellaneous techniques.

I believe that the tosses are different for the techniques. In other words, knowing the right toss is not so simple for the average reader.

 

[HuusHould]

Just noticed he moves his front foot and therefore stands back a bit to compensate.

Yeah, this is unusual, very few pros move the front foot forward.

 

[HuusHould]

What are the issues you have? Different toss techniques fix different problems for different people. People with overactive wrists and elbows tend to do well with the ice cream cone/egg toss technique. People who do a good job of keeping the arm straight but have issues with the release tend to do better with the palm up method. There are other mental cues and tips that work to cure specific problems. There is no one-technique-fits-all for the toss.

I've discovered I have an overactive wrist and am working on the ice cream cone method, with mixed results…..ok I still have issues. You make a good point.

J toss - my tossing arm travels parallel to the baseline... this allows me to turn/load/coil my shoulders naturally - the body movement during the step up gives the toss momentum to get the ball moving forward into the court... i struggled a long time here experimenting with tossing with an arm a) toward the net (90 degree to baseline), b) arm toward the side net post (45 degree to baseline)... but neither a) nor b) allowed me to coil naturally... or i would toss, then coil after (vs. together), or skip the coil completely - i still don't coil enough, but the with the J toss, i feel there's no hitches in the tossing motion

This has been the latest thing I've been working on and it seems to have yielded some improvement How do you ensure you're tossing far enough into the court if your tossing arm is moving parallel to the baseline though,….I am just starting with it as far out in front as I reasonably can, is this the right approach?

Whoops, I didn't read it fully,…it's the body movement during the step up, how does this work? I guess you don't have to understand…I guess if you toss a ball sideways out of a car that's moving forwards, it'll go forwards.(at least a bit relative to where you threw it from)

As someone else here mentioned with the 90 degree method it minimises potential error in the forward back plane.

 

[HuusHould]

* J toss - my tossing arm travels parallel to the baseline... this allows me to turn/load/coil my shoulders naturally - the body movement during the step up gives the toss momentum to get the ball moving forward into the court...

This seems to be working fairly well for me. The fact that the step up provides the forward impetus for the toss means you're never going to be tossing too far back, the orientation of the tossing arm supplements/compliments this negation of backward error.

Just a couple of questions; If you want to toss further into court- say you want to serve and volley for example, will you step up faster or from further back or anything like that to get the toss further into court? Also, how do you think the Fed gets his toss far enough into court given he uses the platform stance? I know you may not have all the answers, but just wondering what your thoughts are? Cheers.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

This seems to be working fairly well for me. The fact that the step up provides the forward impetus for the toss means you're never going to be tossing too far back, the orientation of the tossing arm supplements/compliments this negation of backward error.

Just a couple of questions; If you want to toss further into court- say you want to serve and volley for example, will you step up faster or from further back or anything like that to get the toss further into court? Also, how do you think the Fed u=gets his toss far enough into court given he uses the platform stance? I know you may not have all the answers, but just wondering what your thoughts are? Cheers.

Personally I don't think about "tossing further into the court when I s&v"

I think it was common mistake for me when I was not a very good volleyer.

When I a&every I'm 1000% focusing on a quality serve in a good spot. That alone (hopefully) should be enough to solicit a return back to me (vs a clean passing shot or tough low volley)

While occasionally I get the very weak return back that could have benefitted from a "toss that was slightly further into the court. I'm usually playing good players and getting quality returns back. I just want the returns in my strike zone and ideally above the net

i think if you're going to dedicate to only s&v you gain the slight advantage of being able to throw deeper into the court with the pinpoint stance, but i don't think it makes a big deal (or rec folks like us have soooo many more other more important fundamentals to focus on)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Personally I don't think about "tossing further into the court when I s&v"

I think it was common mistake for me when I was not a very good volleyer.

When I a&every I'm 1000% focusing on a quality serve in a good spot. That alone (hopefully) should be enough to solicit a return back to me (vs a clean passing shot or tough low volley)

While occasionally I get the very weak return back that could have benefitted from a "toss that was slightly further into the court. I'm usually playing good players and getting quality returns back. I just want the returns in my strike zone and ideally above the net

i think if you're going to dedicate to only s&v you gain the slight advantage of being able to throw deeper into the court with the pinpoint stance, but i don't think it makes a big deal (or rec folks like us have soooo many more other more important fundamentals to focus on)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed. I try to have the same toss regardless of whether I S&V. Tossing it further into the court will introduce an unwanted variable. For now, I'm happy getting in a reasonable serve and have reasonable forward momentum.

 

[HuusHould]

When I a&every I'm 1000% focusing on a quality serve in a good spot. That alone (hopefully) should be enough to solicit a return back to me (vs a clean passing shot or tough low volley)

I agree the quality of the serve is more important, just wondering if there's a way to control how far into court you toss, so you aren't consigned to the one ball toss. Obviously it's good to be able to hit all serves from the one toss. But I think as long as you have a few options for a given toss, the toss doesn't have to be in the same place all the time. This could be why I have issues!

Agreed. I try to have the same toss regardless of whether I S&V. Tossing it further into the court will introduce an unwanted variable. For now, I'm happy getting in a reasonable serve and have reasonable forward momentum.

I agree, the fewer variables the better. I never used to have an inconsistent ball toss until I changed my action and while the suggestions on this board have helped somewhat it's still considerably worse than it was before I changed my action, I used to have a dead accurate first serve (one game I hit the same ball mark halfway up the singles line, half on the line, on the ad court three times in a row!) and in a bid for more power have taken a considerable hit in the accuracy department (due to the ball toss) for modest gains in power (I'm never gonna have a huge serve anyway 180 clicks maximum). Sometimes it's comical when I'm drilling S & V; I'll toss the ball behind me and because it's a low toss, my brain wont react in time to say "don't hit this one" and I'll be hitting from behind me, with no forward momentum and will have to accelerate from scratch. Besides it's only drilling and the next ball toss isn't likely to be any better. Changing your serve as an adult needs to come with a disclaimer! "This will frustrate the hell out of you and you may get worse…."

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I agree the quality of the serve is more important, just wondering if there's a way to control how far into court you toss, so you aren't consigned to the one ball toss. Obviously it's good to be able to hit all serves from the one toss. But I think as long as you have a few options for a given toss, the toss doesn't have to be in the same place all the time. This could be why I have issues!

Being "consigned to one ball toss" isn't necessarily a bad thing if it helps you achieve consistency.

But I think I mis-understood you: I thought you brought up toss depth as it relates to S&V. But now it sounds like you're talking about different toss locations for different serves [kick, flat, slice, etc], not related to S&V. I think they are 2 different subjects.

I agree, the fewer variables the better. I never used to have an inconsistent ball toss until I changed my action and while the suggestions on this board have helped somewhat it's still considerably worse than it was before I changed my action, I used to have a dead accurate first serve (one game I hit the same ball mark halfway up the singles line, half on the line, on the ad court three times in a row!) and in a bid for more power have taken a considerable hit in the accuracy department (due to the ball toss) for modest gains in power (I'm never gonna have a huge serve anyway 180 clicks maximum). Sometimes it's comical when I'm drilling S & V; I'll toss the ball behind me and because it's a low toss, my brain wont react in time to say "don't hit this one" and I'll be hitting from behind me, with no forward momentum and will have to accelerate from scratch. Besides it's only drilling and the next ball toss isn't likely to be any better. Changing your serve as an adult needs to come with a disclaimer! "This will frustrate the hell out of you and you may get worse…."

Video yourself doing a toss drill. Set up some kind of target suspended where you want your toss to be and simply aim for that target. It's best to have the racquet and go through the motions of the serve but you don't have to actually hit the serve. Mark your progress by how many consecutive tosses can hit the target. Get into the habit of mentally saying "no" when a toss misses. Later, when actually serving, do the same thing so you don't try to hit a bad toss. The reason you can't do this now is you just haven't practiced it enough.

 

[sureshs]

If you are moving other parts of your body it might be throwing off your toss by adjusting your arm movement during the stroke.

How do I prevent other parts of my body from moving?

 

[sureshs]

Just keep tossing it till it works for you.

Very useful

 

[chikoo]

How do I prevent other parts of my body from moving?

Something along these line might help?

 

[Nostradamus]

Do you guys know how you can all of sudden change to LOW toss for very Windy day(15-20 mph wind) and still have consistent good serve day ???? I have very high Ivan Lendl kind of toss and it is very tough on windy day, almost make serving impossible actually. So I Try my best and improvise to low toss but my rhythm on serve gets all Messed up and I end up serving like 10 % 1st serves in and 15 double faults.....

 

[movdqa]

Do you guys know how you can all of sudden change to LOW toss for very Windy day(15-20 mph wind) and still have consistent good serve day ???? I have very high Ivan Lendl kind of toss and it is very tough on windy day, almost make serving impossible actually. So I Try my best and improvise to low toss but my rhythm on serve gets all Messed up and I end up serving like 10 % 1st serves in and 15 double faults.....

I don't have a low toss or a high toss but I can use a lower toss and spin the ball in. It's certainly less effective than my usual serve but it may be more important to just get the serve in when it's very windy.

 

[Nostradamus]

I don't have a low toss or a high toss but I can use a lower toss and spin the ball in. It's certainly less effective than my usual serve but it may be more important to just get the serve in when it's very windy.

I have a deep knee bend and high toss... so if I go to low toss on windy day, I have to get rid of the knee bend, then this really throws my timing off,,,,,and I have problem just spinning the ball in

 

[movdqa]

I have a deep knee bend and high toss... so if I go to low toss on windy day, I have to get rid of the knee bend, then this really throws my timing off,,,,,and I have problem just spinning the ball in

Remember the semifinal match between Berdych and Murray at the US Open? Berdych's high toss cost him a lot of points.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Do you guys know how you can all of sudden change to LOW toss for very Windy day(15-20 mph wind) and still have consistent good serve day ???? I have very high Ivan Lendl kind of toss and it is very tough on windy day, almost make serving impossible actually. So I Try my best and improvise to low toss but my rhythm on serve gets all Messed up and I end up serving like 10 % 1st serves in and 15 double faults.....

Go with the "hitting on the rise" method, a la Bob Bryan, Sam Groth, etc. I don't see any way around the need to practice it, though. Unless you're an extremely quick study, changing something on-the-fly is very difficult.

 

[Nostradamus]

Go with the "hitting on the rise" method, a la Bob Bryan, Sam Groth, etc. I don't see any way around the need to practice it, though. Unless you're an extremely quick study, changing something on-the-fly is very difficult.

I can do it but I lose a lot of power if use that method. and I am not talented enough to time the ball perfectly on the Rise to get the big power on the serve. .............. Now what do I do ????

 

[Nostradamus]

Remember the semifinal match between Berdych and Murray at the US Open? Berdych's high toss cost him a lot of points.

I know but if Berdych changed his toss to low toss to just get the serve in play,,,,then what difference would it have made ?? NO difference right ? Murray would have seen that and feasted on the weaker Berdych serve and same result

 

[movdqa]

I know but if Berdych changed his toss to low toss to just get the serve in play,,,,then what difference would it have made ?? NO difference right ? Murray would have seen that and feasted on the weaker Berdych serve and same result

I don't think it's that easy for Pros or rec players to change something like that on the fly while remaining effective. I can't imagine practicing for really windy conditions.

Those conditions were unique though. They played the first SF and the second was cancelled due to a Tornado warning. That's the one where a bunch of their stuff blew onto the court. I do sometimes play in 20-25 MPH wind but I really hate it.

 

[Nostradamus]

I don't think it's that easy for Pros or rec players to change something like that on the fly while remaining effective. I can't imagine practicing for really windy conditions.

Those conditions were unique though. They played the first SF and the second was cancelled due to a Tornado warning. That's the one where a bunch of their stuff blew onto the court. I do sometimes play in 20-25 MPH wind but I really hate it.

I only play in that condition if I have to absolutely... problem is it messes up my game for like next 3 weeks and I end up playing bad for like 3 weeks afterwards

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I can do it but I lose a lot of power if use that method. and I am not talented enough to time the ball perfectly on the Rise to get the big power on the serve. .............. Now what do I do ????

Practice more?

At least your serve is now going in [presumably]. And your opponent is having the same problem [unless he has a B. Bryan or S. Groth serve already; or, even worse, you are playing B. Bryan or S. Groth: in that case I can't help you.].

 

[Nacho]

How do I prevent other parts of my body from moving?

cut off your head....That should help

 

[HuusHould]

Being "consigned to one ball toss" isn't necessarily a bad thing if it helps you achieve consistency.

Yeah consigned isn't the right word, it doesn't make sense actually! Limited I should say. Sure, but if you don't have a big serve, variety can be a good thing (I think with a few toss locations there's more potential to deceive your opponent; from this toss he usually hits to x location with y spin at z pace- then you change it up ). Although admittedly you don't want variety in placement of the serve when you're aiming for the one spot haha.

But I think I mis-understood you: I thought you brought up toss depth as it relates to S&V. But now it sounds like you're talking about different toss locations for different serves [kick, flat, slice, etc], not related to S&V. I think they are 2 different subjects.

I was just using serving and volleying as an example, I really just wanted to know if it was possible with the technical parameters that you refer to i.e. the step up provides the forward momentum for the ball toss, to control how far into court the toss goes?

Video yourself doing a toss drill. Set up some kind of target suspended where you want your toss to be and simply aim for that target.

Sounds like a good idea, do you have any ideas re a target suspended in mid air? I guess you could use a ball in the fence, you just have to measure your position relative to the fence?!

 

[Fintft]

I've discovered I have an overactive wrist and am working on the ice cream cone method, with mixed results…..ok I still have issues. You make a good point.

While some coaches recommend to have a cocked wrist, the main coach at my club told me years ago to "lead with the inside of your elbow" the toss that is. You basically only you use your shoulder, not your wrist, nor your elbow.