Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
It was.
2019 Queen's - Men's Singles Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Atennisone
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It was.
fundrazer
G.O.A.T.
I understand you're kind of getting at the fact that grass is a bit different now, but doesn't all of this apply to tennis in general lately?
TheAssassin
Legend
Ok. Fed's super old gen rules today then.Simon himself is 34. So we were getting an "old" winner either way.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
yeah lopez<3. i was rooting for faa to take the title, but if it wasn't him, i also really like lopez so im glad he took it especially against simon. how nice both the 37 year olds won the grass tournaments just like in 2017.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Ok. Fed's super old gen rules today then.
Those are the gens in tennis right now. No young guys winning anything. Just old and super old.
mightyrick
Legend
Not really. Technology itself has greatly homogenized all surfaces to some extent. But the other surfaces still play like they were designed to. I mean, even the Houston Clay championship is played in the same Har-Tru it always was.
However, grass has been completely neutered. People look so forward to grass as if it is some great variation, but it isn't.
They really just need to pave over grass. The North American hardcourt season doesn't start in August. It truly starts in June on the grass.
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
I love the honesty about how he's tired and Andy will need to carry him in the doubles final haha.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
I'm slightly older than both Lopez and Federer so looks like I'm in the super old category too Steve.Those are the gens in tennis right now. No young guys winning anything. Just old and super old.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm slightly older than both Lopez and Federer so looks like I'm in the super old category too Steve.
It's ok. We all get there eventually.
vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
it's always nice to see simon lose... but it has a special taste when it's against 'untalented' feliciano
i heard he once adopted a frog... but he bored-killed it
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Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal has 12 RG titles and 2 Wimbledon. Federer has 8 Wimbledon and 1 RG. Obviously there is still a large difference between clay grass and HC despite baseliners dominating all the surfaces though.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Actually the very fact that you see Lopez in a final - one that he triumphed in - is proof enough that grass is grass. I mean, this was grass too:
And this:
You can further add Connors-Ashe too. Ashe was using S&V sure but a lot of the tennis wasn't very attacking. Ashe's strategy was based on not feeding Connors pace. The arrival of Becker produced a phase of domination of S&V at Wimbledon that is not necessarily consistent with past trends at the tournament. It could be argued therefore that the tournament tinkered with the courts to bring back some variety (though they may not have intended such a sharp swing towards baseline).
octobrina10
Talk Tennis Guru
Tennisgods
Hall of Fame
Fantastic Feliciano! Outstanding victory.
The way he played...Wimbledon wildcard in more ways than one!!!
The way he played...Wimbledon wildcard in more ways than one!!!
octobrina10
Talk Tennis Guru
Feli and Sandra Gago (23) are going to get married this autumn. This will be the second Feli's wedding after July 2015 when he got married to another model, Alba Carrillo.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
You know this tournament had Anderson, Cilic, Wawrinka in the draw, right? If you want to evaluate a tournament's prestige by the winner being a wildcard, what does that make Wimbledon then? After all, the 2001 winner was a wildcard but I bet you are not aware of that or at least didn't consider that when framing this question.
AceSalvo
Legend
Millman, Tsonga, Agut, Goffin will beg to differ.
EloQuent
Legend
Oh gosh darn, you're right! 18 years ago, the one and only time a WC won Wimbledon (said WC was btw a 29 yr old former #2 coming back from injury, who was also a 2 time finalist) means that Wimbledon is a challenger!
And, thanks for reminding how strong the field was! A 34 yr old ranked 20+, a 30 yr old #15 on a downward spiral, and a 33 yr old who hadn't wo a match in months and after Wimbledon will be out of the top 10!
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
And the WC you so sneeringly mentioned here was the Queens champion in 2017, beating Cilic in the final. Pl quit when you are ahead, seriously.
mightyrick
Legend
Federer is a bad comparison. He knows how to play clay court tennis. He has all the strokes.
If it wasn't for Nadal... Federer may very well have pulled off the feat of Borg.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
How do you explain Nadal then? Look, we're all aware that tennis today is baseline dominant, but that doesn't mean the surfaces don't still have major differences among them. Lopez has now won 4 grass court titles in his career. He has 1 clay court title and this is despite clay being the longer season. It can't be a coincidence that he was pretty useless all clay season and then shows up to Queens and wins a title.
In fact, I just looked up Lopez's activity. He literally lost 1st RD at every single ATP level clay court tournament he played this year.
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Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Is Lopez the 1st Spanish player to win Queens more than once?
octobrina10
Talk Tennis Guru
mightyrick
Legend
First, Federer and Nadal should be left out of this conversation. That should be Godwin's Law in any tennis discussion.
I'm not saying there are no differences, but there just isn't as much difference anymore. Very little. Lopez does not have the strokes for clay, that easily explains him. To be successful on clay, you have to have a superb topspin backhand. That is literally the clay stroke. On grass, a slice certainly helps... and a serve certainly helps. But you don't need either. You can mildly baseline the entire time and go to the finals.
Hardcourt and grass can be won with nearly identical skills. In fact, I'd argue that the US Open itself plays more like grass than modern grass does.
It just frustrates me to no end that a guy like Lopez can hit excellent approach shot after approach shot... only to have that slice penetrate but then sit up after the bounce. Hell, Simon didn't even have to bend down that much to get a lot of those.
I just want grass to play like it was meant to. And I want the grass-style point construction back.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
We can add to this Murray's good but not stellar record on clay and Wawrinka's problems on grass. Wawrinka is a good example because he is very comfortable on HC and clay, just not on grass. Grass does not resemble HC though it IS less different than the past (but the two aren't the same things). Lopez wouldn't be able to make those butterknife volleys landing softly and short on the other side on HC. Neither will he get the feel nor will the surface absorb the bounce the way grass does.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Actually he was bending down. Again and again. He was hitting many of those passing shots down on one knee. You and others who make this argument never account for the superior athleticism of these players. They aren't trying to just stand and deliver. They are able to get down again and again without tiring. You're right, there was nothing wrong with many of those approaches Feli hit. But Simon got down again and again and went DTL with piercing accuracy. Consider here the role of poly. It allows you to get underneath the ball and generate spin to thus get passing shots over the net without having to loop/lob them up. This, more than the surface, is the biggest change from the 90s. Today's players can pick off even good slice approaches simply because they don't have to come over, they just go underneath the ball and hit topspin. McEnroe already observed this about Federer's passing shots back in 2003. And everybody else followed his lead on grass, naturally.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Doesn't everyone agree that there isn't as much difference anymore though? That's commonly accepted now. My point is that while I accept that there is less difference, that doesn't mean that grass = HC = clay which is a common problem here when people exaggerate the sameness of the surfaces to diminish accomplishments, particularly in the case of Nadal.
The surfaces aren't the same. This is proven easily by players like Lopez, and even Murray and Wawrinka as @Dolgopolov85 points out. Half of the problem (or more) has to do with poly strings as much as the slowing of surfaces. Poly strings have allowed ridiculous angle on passing shots and have basically killed S&V at least as a consistently winning tactic. Hewitt was doing this to Sampras on relatively quick grass and HC back in the early 00's just as an example.
Anyhow, I think we're both happy Lopez won in the end.
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The Green Mile
Bionic Poster
It would have been worse if I watched it live. Woke up and checked the results as I was getting ready for work. Felt mostly amused that Gilles managed to get it to a 3rd set TB. It was a good week, Feli and Fed winning even it all out.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Well, like that other 37 year old over in Halle, he is a former champion and multiple finalist and has long been a well-known name on the tour. It's not as if he just sprang up out of nowhere!
EloQuent
Legend
I guess I missed the part where Federer fell out of the top 100 and needed a WC? Feli is a solid player but he's hardly been active lately and lost a ton.
Also, I'm not saying this means Queen's is mickey mouse, just that it's way overrated.
Picmun
Hall of Fame
Amazing end to this event with both semifinals and final going three and the doubles as well for Muzziah-Deliciano
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Well, Fed ALWAYS plays Halle (so long as he is fit). The other Big 3ers can't be arsed to play anything and Murray has been out of action in the singles. That just leaves the usual bunch of unreliable "top" guys all of whom got knocked out or were forced to withdraw like Delpo.
Who's overrating it? It is and always has been the foremost grass event after Wimbledon sharing that distinction with Halle in the last 2 decades.
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
Queens isnt overrated.
The grass field is just at an all time low, especially for tune ups
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
FYI, Ashe served and volleyed on every serve in that match, first and second. Yes we've all heard a thousand times about him changing pace, but it wasn't the way we think of changing pace in a baseline oriented match. More like changing pace on his serve, since Connors destroyed the big serve of Tanner in the semis.
Also, 73% of all points in the match were 1-4 shots(Connors also serve and volleyed a ton). The average for the match was 3.58 shots per point. It was an attacking style match in every sense of the word.
What Becker brought to Wimbledon that was new wasn't serve and volley but winning a ton of points outright with the serve.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Congrats to Lopez on winning his 7th ATP title, 3rd at 500 level and 4th on grass. He joins Murray and Cilic as the only 2 active players to have won multiple singles titles at Queen's.
At 37 years of age, he is the oldest player to win the tournament in the open era and 1 of only 3 wildcard entries to go on to take the title (previous 2 being Lendl in 1989 and Sampras in 1999).
He also becomes the 1st player to combine the singles and doubles titles at Queen's since Philippoussis in 1997 and the 1st on tour since Berrettini at 2018 Gstaad.
At 37 years of age, he is the oldest player to win the tournament in the open era and 1 of only 3 wildcard entries to go on to take the title (previous 2 being Lendl in 1989 and Sampras in 1999).
He also becomes the 1st player to combine the singles and doubles titles at Queen's since Philippoussis in 1997 and the 1st on tour since Berrettini at 2018 Gstaad.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
I never said what Becker brought to grass was S&V. But he didn't just win a lot of points with serve, he won them with emphatic shot making as well, particularly hard groundstrokes when they were required. This was not an essential feature on grass before. There was more range in terms of the available tactics which narrowed a lot with the arrival of power tennis.
If you want to talk about shot length, even today 60% of points irrespective of surface are settled in 3 shots or fewer. Lopez came in plenty of times yesterday too, especially by today's standards. And this is where I said Becker tennis is not the only grass court tennis because the difference yesterday was once the players chose to stay back, they were going for safe shots from the baseline rather than bang bang. And that is fine. That is how Murray won Wimbledon in 2013 as well. And I bet there would be a lot more complaints about his game style then were he not British.
3fees
G.O.A.T.
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