2024 WTA Doha 1000

[ScottleeSV]

I wonder why that is? By any objective statistics she has been the best player over last few years. Some statistics: winning streak, consecutive tournaments wins, multiple Grand Slams in one year, 3x Doha back-to-back-to-back, multiple wins over top 10 players, consecutive year end #1 are just mind boggling never seen in years. And yet it seems she is not considered great because???? Is it the fact she wears a cap? Her cheeks are not pinkish hue enough? Elbows too pointy?

A couple of theories on that..

It's possible that people don't think she can sustain this level throughout her career, and so they're not that excited about her (at the moment). This could be down to the slightly weaker serve she has than the other players at the top, or a misconception she's a clay courter who is vulnerable on most surfaces.

Nadal had a similar thing. He's massively popular and appreciated now but I don't think it was always that way. People never really predicted he would be a 20 Slam winner until suddenly he was halfway there. Near the start of his career he was considered a clay expert and a great scrapper, but one with a mediocre serve who would probably burn out by 27.

My other theory is that the quartet of Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Williams have raised the bar of what great players are expected to achieve now. When I was a kid, win 6 Majors and you were a true legend of the game. Now it's 20, seemingly.

As great as Swiatek is, she only has 4 majors and she only ever looks the favourite at 1 of them. That's not knocking her. She's amazing. That performance yesterday was utterly outstanding from 1-4. She's following on from a tough era though, men's and women's.

 

[Gizo]

Whenever Swiatek loses in a grand slam, I feel that there is generally such a ridiculous over-reaction to that, and excessive predictions of ‘doom’.

Ultimately she is only 22 years old, and at this point in time has still won more grand slam titles than Sabalenka (3 years older and having played in 187 more matches than her) and Rybakina (2 years older and having played in 80 more matches than her) combined.

Even back in 2021, all things considered that was a good ‘sophomore’ year for her, on the back of her stunning and surprise RG title win at the end of the 2020 and suddenly having a target on her back at such a young age, with her winning multiple titles including a big one at Rome, never losing before the 4th round at a slam and qualifying for the YEC. But there were plenty of ridiculous comments back then about her being a flash in the pan, overhyped etc.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

Whenever Swiatek loses in a grand slam, I feel that there is generally such a ridiculous over-reaction to that, and excessive predictions of ‘doom’.

Ultimately she is only 22 years old, and at this point in time has still won more grand slam titles than Sabalenka (3 years older and having played in 187 more matches than her) and Rybakina (2 years older and having played in 80 more matches than her.)

Even back in 2021, all things considered that was a good ‘sophomore’ year for her, on the back of her stunning and surprise RG title win at the end of the 2020 and suddenly having a target on her back at such a young age, with her winning multiple titles including a big one at Rome, never losing before the 4th round at a slam and qualifying for the YEC. But there were plenty of ridiculous comments then about her being a flash in the plan, overhyped etc.

Doom and gloom is definitely not needed for Swiatek. She is essentially already an ATG with 4 slams, the best winning streak of the 21st century, 7 Masters titles.

She's 1 slam away from equalling Hingis on 5 slams, 3 slams away from matching Venus. She will never be a flash in the pan. I see her with at least 3 more slams and could see her winning many more than that.

 

[Gizo]

Doom and gloom is definitely not needed for Swiatek. She is essentially already an ATG with 4 slams, the best winning streak of the 21st century, 7 Masters titles.

She's 1 slam away from equalling Hingis on 5 slams, 3 slams away from matching Venus. She will never be a flash in the pan. I see her with at least 3 more slams and could see her winning many more than that.

Agreed. And even when she does slump which is inevitable as she is a human and not a robot after all, she is still very young (a 22 year old in modern day tennis is younger than a 22 year old in previous eras relatively speaking) and has plenty of time to work on her game, technical issues etc., and recover.

I don’t want to sound like I’m bashing Sabalenka (who I wouldn’t be surprised to see win more slams and big titles this year) and Rybakina just to defend her. But at this point in time it could be argued that her career achievements are better than both of theirs combined despite them being 3 / 2 years older with more mileage, also encompassing the YEC and WTA 1000 titles plus ranking feats alongside the slams. That could easily change soon of course.

The ridiculous over-criticism of Swiatek on the women’s side, reminds me of the ridiculous over-criticism of Alcaraz (still not old enough to legally buy a beer in the US) on the men’s side.

 

[Connor35]

Whenever Swiatek loses in a grand slam, I feel that there is generally such a ridiculous over-reaction to that, and excessive predictions of ‘doom’.

Exactly. I remind these people that Serena won 23 slams over 19 seasons.
Meaning she won 1.2 slams a year. So even the GOAT lost twice as many slams than she won Even isolated to the period where she won slams. And she lost quite a few in early rounds.

Now I’m by no means saying Iga is going to have a similar career, but I’m merely pointing out that people just don’t realize how often all time greats LOSE in this sport.
In fact Iga (28%) has won a larger % of the WTA 1000s she’s entered than Serena (26.5%) . But if/when she loses this week, foolish people are going to say “see ..she isnt that great” Vs realizing that Serena failed to win more than 70% of WTA1000s.

That’s not a knock on Serena, its just wishing people used context!

 

[Gizo]

Exactly. I remind these people that Serena won 23 slams over 19 seasons.
Meaning she won 1.2 slams a year. So even the GOAT lost twice as many slams than she won Even isolated to the period where she won slams. And she lost quite a few in early rounds.

Now I’m by no means saying Iga is going to have a similar career, but I’m merely pointing out that people just don’t realize how often all time greats LOSE in this sport.
In fact Iga (28%) has won a larger % of the WTA 1000s she’s entered than Serena (26.5%) . But if/when she loses this week, foolish people are going to say “see ..she isnt that great” Vs realizing that Serena failed to win more than 70% of WTA1000s.

That’s not a knock on Serena, its just wishing people used context!

Agreed.

It's a long grueling season, year after year, there are a lot more matches that last longer than 2 hours and also longer than 3 hours nowadays (especially if Beatriz Haddad Maia is involved !), and the standard of opponents that the big guns face in the early rounds of grand slams and regular WTA tournaments has (IMO) never been better (I've followed tennis and women's tennis for a long time).

It's incredibly difficult to dominate and rack up huge number of title wins per season. Players are going to have off days and suffer bad defeats, it's inevitable. For the top players like Swiatek, limiting the number of those as much as they possibly can, and learning / rebounding from them as much as possible is important, and she has already shown that she had can do that numerous times. What she has achieved in less than 3 and half years since the start of RG in 2020 has just been incredible.

I think as well many people look at what Serena did, the big 3 did on the men's side, and act as if grand slam titles are like confetti. They are very difficult to win. And any season with 1 grand slam title win is already a very successful one.

The rush to read too much into one off matches, does bemuse me.

 

[Connor35]

The rush to read too much into one off matches, does bemuse me.

Those folks are the GOATs at recency bias.

 

[_phantom]

Before the shin bleed MTO, Iga was actually looked rather frustrated/shaken with her game. Down 2 breakpoints. She was seen asking ump whether she could talk to her coach while ER was receiving MTO. She was allowed to speak to her coach. Then the rest was history.

Whether the coach really gave tactical advice or just a boost of confidence ane calmness, we'll probably never know, but it seemed to work.

The coach appeared clueless too, but the 4-minute break and talking to someone surely helped Iga gather her thoughts. The commentators mentioned Elena hitting her shin more than once while serving. It probably affected her serve thereafter.

But if/when she loses this week, foolish people are going to say “see ..she isnt that great”

Unfortunately an anti-Iga brigade emerged in the last two years because of her pro-Ukraine stance, and it resulted in increased celebration of her losses in TTW.

 

[insideguy]

Whenever Swiatek loses in a grand slam, I feel that there is generally such a ridiculous over-reaction to that, and excessive predictions of ‘doom’.

Ultimately she is only 22 years old, and at this point in time has still won more grand slam titles than Sabalenka (3 years older and having played in 187 more matches than her) and Rybakina (2 years older and having played in 80 more matches than her) combined.

Even back in 2021, all things considered that was a good ‘sophomore’ year for her, on the back of her stunning and surprise RG title win at the end of the 2020 and suddenly having a target on her back at such a young age, with her winning multiple titles including a big one at Rome, never losing before the 4th round at a slam and qualifying for the YEC. But there were plenty of ridiculous comments back then about her being a flash in the pan, overhyped etc.

I have always said this about Serena. The whole overreaction to her losing was always compounded by idiots who thought she won 5 slams a year for 20 years. Like no one could ever possibly beat her. She is an ATG but she lost a lot. Speaking to so called tennis fans they always acted like she could to possibly lose or if she did it was just bad luck or something. It was like this negative overhype they hated her, and acted like she couldnt be beaten. The whole psychology with fans and Serena was bizarre.

 

[Connor35]

I have always said this about Serena. The whole overreaction to her losing was always compounded by idiots who thought she won 5 slams a year for 20 years. Like no one could ever possibly beat her. She is an ATG but she lost a lot. Speaking to so called tennis fans they always acted like she could to possibly lose or if she did it was just bad luck or something. It was like this negative overhype they hated her, and acted like she couldnt be beaten. The whole psychology with fans and Serena was bizarre.

Precisely what I said above. Thank you!

She won 23 slams over 19 seasons. She lost 2x as many as she won. Including some 1st and 2nd round exits.

Not a slam on Serena. She’s the goat. But just pointing out how people don’t understand how often great players, even the goat, lose tennis matches.

 

[insideguy]

Precisely what I said about. Thank you!

She won 23 slams over 19 seasons. She lost 2x as many as she won. Including some 1st and 2nd round exits.

Not a slam on Serena. She’s the goat. But just pointing out how people don’t understand how often great players, even the goat, lose tennis matches.

It always bugged me. People would come on these boards and be like oh what's the use Serena will kill everyone and win this. That was maybe true for like 2 or 3 years. But not for the other 16 or 17. .

 

[Connor35]

It always bugged me. People would come on these boards and be like oh what's the use Serena will kill everyone and win this. That was maybe true for like 2 or 3 years. But not for the other 16 or 17. .

Yep. And she had runs of 9, 7, 7, 7, and 5 slams without winning.

 

[robyrolfo]

Just watched the final now, and disappointed in both the result and the match. Yes, the first set was close, but that doesn't mean the tennis was high quality. Both players blew set points in the tiebreak with silly mistakes.

And just go back and watch match point. An awful half-volley from Swiatek, followed up by not-so-great pass attempt from Rybakina, followed up by a strange attempted lob from Rybakina when she had other options... Just not inspiring.

More to come, including a few people that complain about the perspective of others, while lacking perspective themselves...

Iga won >80% of her matches last year on all 3 surfaces.

And she lost to Svitolina at Wimbledon. And she got school by Ostapenka at the US Open. AND she just lost in the third round of the AO, to freaggin Noskova, after getting lucky that Danielle Collins choked against her in the previous round. So...

Rybs and Iga playing now. Both great players, but are there two other players with less personality on and off court?

I want to like Rybakina, but she is so painfully uninteresting to watch (both her tennis and her demeanor). Even my wife commenting on how bland she is, and we both saw her live (together) at the US Open last year, where she meekly lost to Cristea.

Agree about her waving her arms was bad but what was something good she did?

How about Swiatek deliberately hitting her racquet against the ground during the 5-6 game in the first set? She does that all the time, and it's ridiculous, as is her behavior in general on court.

I really thought Elena was going to win that first set, but congrats to Iga! Well done.

Watch the 6-5 game again, and Swiatek got really lucky (helped by Rybakina getting tight). There was a point that Swiatek had absolutely no business winning, I think at 30-30. Rybakina blew it indeed.

Since just Beijing in the fall Iga is 23-1.

And yet some still fail to recognize her greatness.

Nice job cherry picking. It does well to ignore her very unimpressive performances in the slams since last year's FO, and is helped by the joke that was the WTA finals, where she seemed like the only one who actually cared about trying to win. More on true greatness below...

I wonder why that is? By any objective statistics she has been the best player over last few years. Some statistics: winning streak, consecutive tournaments wins, multiple Grand Slams in one year, 3x Doha back-to-back-to-back, multiple wins over top 10 players, consecutive year end #1 are just mind boggling never seen in years. And yet it seems she is not considered great because???? Is it the fact she wears a cap? Her cheeks are not pinkish hue enough? Elbows too pointy?

You wonder why? Because she looks like a basket case during every match. Because she looks like she is on the verge of tears at all times, and never like a confident, in-control, smart and savvy champion.

My other theory is that the quartet of Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Williams have raised the bar of what great players are expected to achieve now. When I was a kid, win 6 Majors and you were a true legend of the game. Now it's 20, seemingly.

Um, you are forgetting the first modern player to pass the 20 mark (before the age of 30!!!!) and truly set the bar for all others to follow. More on that below...

Exactly. I remind these people that Serena won 23 slams over 19 seasons.
Meaning she won 1.2 slams a year. So even the GOAT lost twice as many slams than she won Even isolated to the period where she won slams. And she lost quite a few in early rounds.

Now I’m by no means saying Iga is going to have a similar career, but I’m merely pointing out that people just don’t realize how often all time greats LOSE in this sport.
In fact Iga (28%) has won a larger % of the WTA 1000s she’s entered than Serena (26.5%) . But if/when she loses this week, foolish people are going to say “see ..she isnt that great” Vs realizing that Serena failed to win more than 70% of WTA1000s.

That’s not a knock on Serena, its just wishing people used context!

Why do you guys keep bringing up Serena? Aside from having one slam more than Graf, she stats are inferior to Steffi's in just about every other conceivable way.

Once the recency bias (remember that) wears off, people will realize that Graf is easily the greatest Woman to ever play, and perhaps the greatest human being.

I have always said this about Serena. The whole overreaction to her losing was always compounded by idiots who thought she won 5 slams a year for 20 years. Like no one could ever possibly beat her. She is an ATG but she lost a lot. Speaking to so called tennis fans they always acted like she could to possibly lose or if she did it was just bad luck or something. It was like this negative overhype they hated her, and acted like she couldnt be beaten. The whole psychology with fans and Serena was bizarre.

The reaction to Serena's results was tainted by a certain group of people that really didn't have much of a clue about tennis, particularly the history of tennis, and somehow decided that Serena was this super-human that changed the sport forever. They would talk about her in a frustratingly oversimplified and flat out ignorant way, and of course that generated a backlash in the other direction.

Precisely what I said above. Thank you!

She won 23 slams over 19 seasons. She lost 2x as many as she won. Including some 1st and 2nd round exits.

Not a slam on Serena. She’s the goat. But just pointing out how people don’t understand how often great players, even the goat, lose tennis matches.

Again, someone so focused on stats should realize that Graf is indeed more of "goat" than Serena. Navratilova too.

 

[coolcamden]

Why do you guys keep bringing up Serena? Aside from having one slam more than Graf, she stats are inferior to Steffi's in just about every other conceivable way.

Once the recency bias (remember that) wears off, people will realize that Graf is easily the greatest Woman to ever play, and perhaps the greatest human being.


The reaction to Serena's results was tainted by a certain group of people that really didn't have much of a clue about tennis, particularly the history of tennis, and somehow decided that Serena was this super-human that changed the sport forever. They would talk about her in a frustratingly oversimplified and flat out ignorant way, and of course that generated a backlash in the other direction.


Again, someone so focused on stats should realize that Graf is indeed more of "goat" than Serena. Navratilova too.