Matthew ATX
Semi-Pro
Yikes.
Google the word if you don't understand it. Otherwise you'll just look foolish.
4.0 still full of pushers
- Thread starter CosmosMpower
- Start date
Yikes.
Google the word if you don't understand it. Otherwise you'll just look foolish.
That's what 4.0s should be doing against those creampuff serves.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Then it goes long.
Dink serve is a weapon all the way to ATP
CHECK OUT MACKENZIE MCDONALD VERSUS PETER POLANSKY IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME
DINK SERVICE
KING IN TENNIS
Dink serve is a weapon all the way to ATP
CHECK OUT MACKENZIE MCDONALD VERSUS PETER POLANSKY IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME
DINK SERVICE
KING IN TENNIS
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
That's the bulk of recreational tennis. Don't get me wrong, there's some 4.0s and 4.5s who play "bigger" but a lot of tennis is simply consistency, getting the ball back - working the point somewhat, but not with consistent big shots like higher level players. Some of it might be "pushing" but not all of it. "Winner" tennis is very rare.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
More precisely is "defense wins championships". Defenders are the current kings of tennis in its modern form. Largely because its easier to be fit than it is to hit hard with precision.
NastyWinners
Hall of Fame
One instance doesn’t necessarily mean it works as a “weapon.”
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
I'd say 4.5 for what you are asking for although the top of 4.0 division you will see 4.0's that actually beat lower level 4.5's. Many 4.0's including myself have descent spin serves but nothing over powering most of the time. Some better kick serves than others but they are generally smarter about where they are hitting the ball. It's with more of a purpose than at 3.5. The top of the line 4.0's don't put up with pushers too much. They and 4.5's will pretty much play those balls like batting practice. The 4.5's just do a better job of it of course. You will see what is obviously a real good 4.5 with a 4.0 rating...getting his rocks off dominating the 4.0 division and keeping his rating my doing a good job of managing the scores.
Or because hitting with tons of speed and precision requires both: being fit (fitness conditioning) + having good technique + being in good shape.
While returning the ball back and waiting for mistake by and large requires one to be fit.
+ if we believe all the complaints about courts being slowed down which makes the game slower, then it is easier to run all day long returning the balls as opposed to hit winner after winner
tennisisgood
New User
Well put and good point. The issue isn't that 1) players don't win by pushing, 2) they shouldn't push it, 3) one can learn to beat pushers - it is that you don't enjoy playing against that style. You are allowed to not enjoy playing against a certain style and are allowed to share your thoughts here.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Here is how I have been beating 4.0 players with little offense, but great defense.
1) Changed to a pusher BH, basically.
Sometimes, only hitting it at 50% and lobbing BH.
Massive net clearance. 10 feet or more. Semi Lob.
High, deep, medium spin.
Totally remove the net from play.
No winners from BH, just push him back.
But, literally zero UE's from my BH the entire match.
2) Slow balls allow you to choose direction.
So, I keep kept targeting the BH.
I rather hit a weaker ball to his BH, than hard ball to FH.
3) Serve return. Steady and not overhitting.
If they sat up, I would drive it.
Otherwise, just half swing hitting high & deep to get point started.
Massive reduction of UE from me.
4) Drop shots getting better.
Drop shotting a lot a short balls.
Make him run and get tired.
5) Longer shot tolerance.
Only attack if waist-shoulder high.
With non-attacking opponent, I can just hit one more ball, and will not get punished.
Keep hitting back until I can really step in and place it where I want.
6) Not overhitting approach shots.
Also, playing the angle on approach, and not just always hitting DTL.
7) Have been drilling volleys and they are much high % now.
Overheads are still a moot point.
1) Changed to a pusher BH, basically.
Sometimes, only hitting it at 50% and lobbing BH.
Massive net clearance. 10 feet or more. Semi Lob.
High, deep, medium spin.
Totally remove the net from play.
No winners from BH, just push him back.
But, literally zero UE's from my BH the entire match.
2) Slow balls allow you to choose direction.
So, I keep kept targeting the BH.
I rather hit a weaker ball to his BH, than hard ball to FH.
3) Serve return. Steady and not overhitting.
If they sat up, I would drive it.
Otherwise, just half swing hitting high & deep to get point started.
Massive reduction of UE from me.
4) Drop shots getting better.
Drop shotting a lot a short balls.
Make him run and get tired.
5) Longer shot tolerance.
Only attack if waist-shoulder high.
With non-attacking opponent, I can just hit one more ball, and will not get punished.
Keep hitting back until I can really step in and place it where I want.
6) Not overhitting approach shots.
Also, playing the angle on approach, and not just always hitting DTL.
7) Have been drilling volleys and they are much high % now.
Overheads are still a moot point.
If you don't like the "pushers" or guys that hit the ball soft and high, then come into the net and pressure them and work on your volleys and overheads. That will shorten the points and probably give you more winners and put them in even more of a defensive position. If you decide to just sit back and continue to hit groundstrokes with them while they are not hitting the ball as hard as you wish they would, then you're giving in to their type of play. Take the point back and end it on your terms, even if you make an error, it'd be more exciting to you I'm sure, and you'll get better because of it.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
Why?
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
I saw the other day when doubles were played with mid range 4.0 guys against two 4.5 guys. and result was 6-1 6-1. 4.0 guys suck so bad.
shazbot
Semi-Pro
Haha. Super late to this thread, but this reply pretty much sums up a losers mentality.
So you would rather play people who make a ton of errors and, let's be honest, suck at tennis? Because 3.5 tennis is not exactly good tennis.
If you can't beat 4.0's, regardless of how they play, you are not a 4.0. So 3.5 is actually exactly where you belong.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
...and crashing bores
Yeah, exactly. Either come to net, or else learn to take the ball early and also to change ball direction. Much harder for an opponent to maintain their consistency against you when you are taking time away from them and always making them hit on the run.
R1FF
Professional
This has taken me all year to get good at. It is very solid advice.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
This common advice is incomplete.
You don't just "come to net" unless you want to get lobbed all day long, and get demolished 6-0
Beating a pusher does not have a magic pill, just add water solution.
To beat a pusher you need, in decreasing order of importance
1) Heavy high deep groundstrokes.
2) Accurate approach shots
3) Volley skills
4) Overheads.
sredna42
Hall of Fame
You're going to do well.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Never.
Even at ATP, most points end on an error
Tennis is about fewer errors, at ALL levels.
Pushing wins, and here is the data to back it up
#1 way a point ends is forced error
Powderwombat
Semi-Pro
You can hit shots with margin without "pushing" it btw. Almost like some people think if you're not trying to blast ridiculous winners on every shot you're a "pusher". You're not playing tennis you're living in fairy land if you think that.
That's the skill which pays the bills. But sometimes they have no choice because of their body type and physical ability and they perfect the skills over time to get them the most wins. They can still hit great winners but they do that more selectively. Same applies to players who hit lots of winners, their aggressive games works better than if they play pusher styles, they probably can't chase balls as effective as Wozniacki or Goffin.
Losing to players because they hit good winners - feels less painful than losing to pusher style players because of your own mistakes.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
This is generally an effective strategy at all levels.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Till you are a lot better than these players, you won't actually understand what they are good at. It may not really be totally "mindless" defensive shots. At 4.0 level I do not expect players to have very good purposeful patterns. But some of these players develop an "instinctive" patterns, which they use repeatedly to make the opponents life difficult. But at this level they wont have the skill to do it consistently/repeatedly so that it is really hard to identify these patterns, compared to a pro-level.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
I think you meant...
3.5 non-sense
4.0 get-it-in
4.5 get-it-in with pace
But in reality there are tons of variations based on styles of play, skill developed etc.
For example
a 4.5 can be get-it-in a lot more (without pace) than a 4.0
a 4.0 can be a get-it-in some with tons of pace, but a lot less get-it-in than an average 4.0
3.5 non-sense
4.0 get-it-in
4.5 get-it-in with pace
But in reality there are tons of variations based on styles of play, skill developed etc.
For example
a 4.5 can be get-it-in a lot more (without pace) than a 4.0
a 4.0 can be a get-it-in some with tons of pace, but a lot less get-it-in than an average 4.0
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Played with a new 4.0 yesterday.
Not a big hitter.
But, he was great at returning balls and keeping longer rallies.
He also chased down a lot of ball and kept a lot of balls into play.
Great retriever. Good contrast from a 3.5 who would go for too much when in trouble.
Not a big hitter.
But, he was great at returning balls and keeping longer rallies.
He also chased down a lot of ball and kept a lot of balls into play.
Great retriever. Good contrast from a 3.5 who would go for too much when in trouble.
FiReFTW
Legend
Its not hard to just get the ball back in play tho, regardless of the opponent's shots, they can be flat bullets or heavy spin, the easiest thing to do against those shots is block it or somehow get it back in play and the hardest is to actually hit a quality shot yourself with good technique.
Getting the ball back in play is the easiest skill in tennis, but of course it requires good footwork, conditioning and overall physicality, but in terms of difficulty of techinque its the simplest thing to do.
Thats why its hard to beat these players until you really develop your level far beyond theirs, because you can hit 3 or 4 really quality shots with heavy spin, but he can simply block them back and your back to square 1.
These guys are limited in their level, they can't go past this level ever, since they have no weapons, but until someone who is developing a tennis game with weapons and some aggressive shots gets to a high enough level, its hard to beat these players easily.
R1FF
Professional
Well said by both of you.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
There is no such thing as 3 or 4 more "just get it back over" balls in 4.0 and above tennis, unless you have no offense yourself (pusher dink battle)
Players who block back, and "just get the ball back into play" will be giving up short balls constantly, especially if you're hitting deep.
Point is over at that point. Either you will hit a clean winner, or hit an approach that forces an error, or you will make the error on the attack.
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Morch Us
Hall of Fame
I think you are generalizing. For someone at same level it is hard to see someone else's skills, especially if it involves patterns of play whether it is just instinctive or purposeful. On the other hand it is easy to see one shot skills. And yes, pushers can develop to next level, and yes they have weapons (depending on the level they play at). It is hard for rec level folks to understand that pushers just dont stop at 3.0 or 3.5 or 4.0. There are pushers at ALL levels including professional level.
The mere definition is that compared to their peers, they seem to play a lot more rallies. At the lowest levels, you are right, that there is probably nothing more than getting it back somewhere. There are folks who call "Rafa" a pusher. And yes he mastered the skill of playing patterns, and always finds himself ahead as the pattern progresses. Do you think it just happened? They are purposeful patterns. And yes, Rafa does not even try too hard to ace someone, since his weapon is not one-shot-win. It is the patterns he play. (does not mean he cannot hit an outright winner).
Another great example is Andy Murray. It is (was) great to watch him if you understand his pattenrs, otherwise it will look like he is just getting the ball back to you.
Anyway the point is ... you cannot generalize that a person who hits slower than his peers does not have a weapon and cannot proceed to next level. Or that they are all just getting the ball back in play. If they are winning at their level they HAVE a weapon, they just need to sharpen that to get to next level. Plus they will develop new weapons.
The mere definition is that compared to their peers, they seem to play a lot more rallies. At the lowest levels, you are right, that there is probably nothing more than getting it back somewhere. There are folks who call "Rafa" a pusher. And yes he mastered the skill of playing patterns, and always finds himself ahead as the pattern progresses. Do you think it just happened? They are purposeful patterns. And yes, Rafa does not even try too hard to ace someone, since his weapon is not one-shot-win. It is the patterns he play. (does not mean he cannot hit an outright winner).
Another great example is Andy Murray. It is (was) great to watch him if you understand his pattenrs, otherwise it will look like he is just getting the ball back to you.
Anyway the point is ... you cannot generalize that a person who hits slower than his peers does not have a weapon and cannot proceed to next level. Or that they are all just getting the ball back in play. If they are winning at their level they HAVE a weapon, they just need to sharpen that to get to next level. Plus they will develop new weapons.
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FiReFTW
Legend
Im talking about players whos only strategy is to defemd and get the ball back into play, and have no good serve or weapons during play.
These players are limited by the level they can reach.
Someone whos main strategy is to get balls in and wait for opponents errors, yet have the ability to attack short balls and have good powerful serves etc... thats something else that im talking about.
FiReFTW
Legend
Someone who is good can get the ball back deep very constantly.
And point is not over when someone hits a short ball at 3.5 level lol are u joking, these players miss every 2nd ball, ok im exaggerating but there are tons of easy errors at this level.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Read the very last thing I wrote.
Either you will hit a clean winner, or hit an approach that forces an error, or you will make the error on the attack.
Either you will win or lose the point, but there will not be 3 or 4 more balls after that.
Also, if someone is consistently "just getting the ball back" deeply, that is higher level tennis, and not limited at all.
HE will be the one getting lots of short balls in return.
Even ATP pros can't consistently get the ball back deeply, as every other ball they hit lands in the service box.
FiReFTW
Legend
My point is that a 3.5 player will make WAY more errors than hit winners or force errors from a decent pusher player.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
That's fine, but I am saying that "just hitting the ball back" will typically end the point on the next ball, one way or the other.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Heck yeah! I had to win many points about 3 times because he kept running down my "winners". Darn inconsiderate of him.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Twice. Interesting that neither player could hit a BH because they were so nimble and fast that they could run around everything and hit a FH.
I remember finally getting a ball to this young soccer player's BH, came in to volley the weak shot, hit a crisp volley to the opposite corner and the guy ran it down and lobbed me to reset the point. After that I knew it was over. When I can't win with corner to corner volleys, the dude is too fast for me.
yup, playing tennis against soccer players is like: "i know i am gonna get killed and there's nothing i can do about it. "
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Just goes to show how important the legs and good footwork are. If only the average tennis player knew this...
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
That’s how we know we’re in a weak era of pro tennis. Back in the 80’s and 90’s every ball cleared the service line.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Depth is still the king. But in the topspin era, more court dimensions are available and angles available became super important. The shorter you can bounce the wider you can "place" your opponent, when you are going for an angle, and what the ball does after bounce becomes especially important in this case, to still have a quality shot.
Also another thing to note is that in 80s it will be hard to find someone staying 10 feet behind the baseline on rallys, and still producing quality shots, essentially neutralizing the pure depth.
That being said, depth is what most rec players should still strive for, since that is still the king.
Also another thing to note is that in 80s it will be hard to find someone staying 10 feet behind the baseline on rallys, and still producing quality shots, essentially neutralizing the pure depth.
That being said, depth is what most rec players should still strive for, since that is still the king.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Just goes to show how important the legs and good footwork are. If only the average tennis player knew this...
The average tennis player has never taken a lesson and does not even know how to hold the tennis racket.
Footwork is the least of their issues. Go the the local park, most tennis players are poking at the ball and don't even know what topspin is
shazbot
Semi-Pro
You will be lucky to find people who even know what a new can of tennis balls look like.
It's amazing how often I see people playing with balls that look like they are 2+ years old. The ball is basically the color of dirt and bounces maybe 3 inches off the ground. Add that to the fact that they are playing with 20 dollar racquets from walmart and you got yourself some terrible tennis.
I have worked with people like this before and they talk around the office as if they 'play a lot of tennis'. It's quite comical.
FiReFTW
Legend
Alot of people just play tennis for fun, they might play once a month or maybe a few times in summer, nothing wrong with that.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
The funny thing about telling people you are playing tennis.
They envision the people playing with garage sale rackets and balls the dog chewed up.
They probably think it's so silly to spend so much time on such a silly casual thing.
Only tennis players know the reality.
Most people have never seen a tennis ball hit correctly.
shazbot
Semi-Pro
Absolutely nothing wrong with it.
But they can't grab a new can of balls for 4 bucks from CVS or Walgreen's?
I don't play basketball too much, but when I do I at least make sure the ball is inflated properly, I don't play with a ball that is practically flat.
I actually worked with a guy at my old job who said he played a lot of tennis. He heard through some fellow co-workers that I played tennis and wanted to play. We setup a time to play and he brought a plastic bag with about 12 balls in it that looked to be 3 years old.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I can get a sense of how good a player is without seeing their stroke technique: all I do is watch how they move. Crude but surprisingly accurate. Certainly for well-trained players. But even those with limited mobility: they know how to position themselves optimally.
No, footwork is not the least of their issues: if they could improve their footwork, even poking at the ball with no TS would become a lot more effective and consistent.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
If I played a sport only a few times a year, buying new equipment wouldn't be the first thing on my mind.
Even if they had new balls and the latest $200 stick, the tennis wouldn't improve.
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