After watching Federer battling Davydenko at the Australian Open in 2010 I've come to a different conclusion

[Sabratha]

It's obvious he was on the backfoot at the start of the match and playing below par - but even when he was upping his level and bringing some of his top notch stuff I couldn't help but see that his level wasn't far off what we saw in later years.

He definitely sliced more in his later years but his movement and footwork definitely didn't decline much if at all. What changed was his tactics - for better or for worse.

I don't think it's too unreasonable to argue Federer upped his level but that peak Djokovic was too much for him after this reevaluation (without bias).

 

[MichaelNadal]

Welcome back sir

 

[Third Serve]

hol' up

he's back!

 

[Sabratha]

Aw, shucks. Thanks guys.

 

[Hitman]

And what do I see here?!

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

lol
you seriously underrate the significance of agility once again

 

[Sabratha]

lol
you seriously underrate the significance of agility once again

Federer didn't move much worse in his later years. That's the honest truth, mate. I'd your understand your stance if this was '06 Fed but I'm talking about '10.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Federer didn't move much worse in his later years. That's the honest truth, mate. I'd your understand your stance if this was '06 Fed but I'm talking about '10.

Federer's movement post-2013 is noticeably less agile than before. You'd be right if comparing 2010 to 2011-12, given that he wasn't too consistent in 2010 either.

 

[Sabratha]

Federer's movement post-2013 is noticeably less agile than before. You'd be right if comparing 2010 to 2011-12, given that he wasn't too consistent in 2010 either.

I don't see it to be honest. Federer's still defensive to some degree in his later years with his constant slicing and trick shots - it's just in a different way. In terms of footwork he isn't too far off either considering he still has time to step around the ball a lot of the time.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I don't see it to be honest. Federer's still defensive to some degree in his later years with his constant slicing and trick shots - it's just in a different way. In terms of footwork he isn't too far off either considering he still has time to step around the ball a lot of the time.

Small differences are significant against opponents of your own caliber... How isn't this obvious, given how much precision tennis requires.

 

[Sabratha]

Small differences are significant against opponents of your own caliber... How isn't this obvious, given how much precision tennis requires.

But that was my point. Federer's not entirely worse today than he was then because his decline in these areas is subtle and his gained experience makes for better tactics.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

But that was my point. Federer's not entirely worse today than he was then because his decline in these areas is subtle and his gained experience makes for better tactics.

Experience is seriously overrated. What's crucial is the first couple years in the job, after that you're set in your ways. There's nothing players don't know game-wise after some years at the top, only adjustments remain.

 

[Third Serve]

Hello banned user with a triplicate account!

Amazing analysis from someone who never watched Federer in 2010 but expects those of us who did to listen with rapt attention.

Get a fifth account and up your game. New troll user name should be "DjokovicGOAT1234."

I strongly disagree with OP, but you're completely incorrect. Like, embarrassingly so.

 

[Third Serve]

Experience is seriously overrated. What's crucial is the first couple years in the job, after that you're set in your ways. There's nothing players don't know game-wise after some years at the top, only adjustments remain.

The Connors quote comes to mind here.

 

[Sabratha]

Experience is seriously overrated. What's crucial is the first couple years in the job, after that you're set in your ways. There's nothing players don't know game-wise after some years at the top, only adjustments remain.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

The Connors quote comes to mind here.

Senna said it takes 50 GP to master F1 then you're sticking to what you've got.

 

[mike danny]

But that was my point. Federer's not entirely worse today than he was then because his decline in these areas is subtle and his gained experience makes for better tactics.

I'm not that gullible to believe that Fed goes from nearly 3-2 in slams against Nole in 2011-2012 to no slam wins since just because Nole too good while he has remained the same.

We're back to the same old Fed never declines, others just get better.

 

[RS]

I'm not that gullible to believe that Fed goes from nearly 3-2 in slams against Nole in 2011-2012 to no slam wins since just because Nole too good while he has remained the same.

We're back to the same old Fed never declines, others just get better.

He said 2010 Federer though.

 

[Deleted member 743561]

It's great to see @Sabratha back in the fold.

Place needs as many independent thinkers as it can get!

 

[Sabratha]

This is just... LOL

 

[mike danny]

He said 2010 Federer though.

Which pretty much implies later versions were the same constantly.

 

[Sabratha]

Which pretty much implies later versions were the same constantly.

He didn't play the exact same way but I feel his level of play rivaled that of 2010. Whatever he lacked later on he has made up for with greater intelligence on the court and new tactics (like SABR for example).

 

[RS]

Which pretty much implies later versions were the same constantly.

Fed was considered by most better in 11-12 than 10. Anyway think he we got different defentions to what he meant.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Fed was considered by most better in 11-12 than 10. Anyway think he we got different defentions to what he meant.

Wasn't much better in 11 for sure, just more consistent.

More specifically, Fred's level until 2011 USO was a continuation of his 2010 pretty much. From then on up to 2012 USO he had a year that rivalled 2008 though a bit worse in slams.

 

[Sabratha]

Wasn't much better in 11 for sure, just more consistent.

I think his matches against Djokovic at the French and US Open disprove your point.

 

[RS]

Wasn't much better in 11 for sure, just more consistent.

IMO he was better at 3/4 slams in 11 though.

 

[Sabratha]

More specifically, Fred's level until 2011 USO was a continuation of his 2010 pretty much. From then on up to 2012 USO he had a year that rivalled 2008 though a bit worse in slams.

Djokovic was much better at the US Open in 2011 so naturally Federer would've had to have been playing better considering the result.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

IMO he was better at 3/4 slams in 11 though.

Wimbledon isn't really relevant here since neither 10/11 Fred was good to win any 03-15 edition at least. So he displayed strong form in two 2011 slams vs one in 2010, that's the difference.

I specified my comment up there btw

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Djokovic was much better at the US Open in 2011 so naturally Federer would've had to have been playing better considering the result.

I'm including 2011 USO in the better yearly stretch. 2011 RG is comparable to 2010 AO, and Fed's poor Canada-Cincy performance made it seem like a lucky strike at the time until the USO followed by the fall season swap.

 

[JaoSousa]

It's obvious he was on the backfoot at the start of the match and playing below par - but even when he was upping his level and bringing some of his top notch stuff I couldn't help but see that his level wasn't far off what we saw in later years.

He definitely sliced more in his later years but his movement and footwork definitely didn't decline much if at all. What changed was his tactics - for better or for worse.

I don't think it's too unreasonable to argue Federer upped his level but that peak Djokovic was too much for him after this reevaluation (without bias).

This isn't controversial at all. I would say that 2012 was Federer's best year level-wise after his 2004-2007 time. Djokovic wasn't an all time great level player in 2009 or 2010, but got better and was able to beat Ol' Rog in later years.

 

[Sabratha]

I'm including 2011 USO in the better yearly stretch. 2011 RG is comparable to 2010 AO, and Fed's poor Canada-Cincy performance made it seem like a lucky strike at the time until the USO followed by the fall season swap.

I think Federer definitely played better at the 2011 French. He could've lost to Davydenko at the 2010 Australian and he beat Djokovic (who was on a 40+ match winning streak which included multiple Nadal wins on clay) and gave Nadal a decent fight in the final.

2010 Murray, Tsonga and Davydenko aren't anywhere close to 2011 Djokovic and Nadal.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I think Federer definitely played better at the 2011 French. He could've lost to Davydenko at the 2010 Australian and he beat Djokovic (who was on a 40+ match winning streak which included multiple Nadal wins on clay) and gave Nadal a decent fight in the final.

2010 Murray, Tsonga and Davydenko aren't anywhere close to 2011 Djokovic and Nadal.

Denko was zoning, until he was not and Federer was all over him. I don't think Djokofans pick on RG 16 final because Djo lost the first set to mury, what's.important is how well he played the last three sets.

In the end, pretty dominant scorelines for Fred after the first set of QF, don't see the problem. Noel split the first two sets of 2011 USO QF with Tipsy before Janko hurt his glutes, there's no problem since he beat Fedal. Federer beat who he faced, weaker comp obviously but quite dominantly at that.

 

[Sabratha]

Denko was zoning, until he was not and Federer was all over him. I don't think Djokofans pick on RG 16 final because Djo lost the first set to mury, what's.important is how well he played the last three sets.

In the end, pretty dominant scorelines for Fred after the first set of QF, don't see the problem. Noel split the first two sets of 2011 USO QF with Tipsy before Janko hurt his glutes, there's no problem since he beat Fedal. Federer beat who he faced, weaker comp obviously but quite dominantly at that.

I think Federer's level picked up as the match went on and Davydenko panicked. He wasn't unbeatable during the first set and a half.

The scoreline doesn't tell the whole story and I repeat again, 2011 Djokovic and Nadal are leagues above Murray, Tsonga and Davydenko from the 2010 AO.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I think Federer's level picked up as the match went on and Davydenko panicked. He wasn't unbeatable during the first set and a half.

The scoreline doesn't tell the whole story and I repeat again, 2011 Djokovic and Nadal are leagues above Murray, Tsonga and Davydenko from the 2010 AO.

2011 USO Nadal was sure bery tuff ha.

 

[Sabratha]

2011 USO Nadal was sure bery tuff ha.

I'm moreso referring to the French with those statements. 2011 Nadal at the US Open was playing pretty good up until the final. Absolutely annihilated Roddick in the QF (I know he was past prime but still).

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I'm moreso referring to the French with those statements. 2011 Nadal at the US Open was playing pretty good up until the final. Absolutely annihilated Roddick in the QF (I know he was past prime but still).

lol at bringing up 2011 Roddick? He could play one great match and would fizzle out afterwards. Happened here, 2012 Miami as well.

 

[RS]

Wimbledon isn't really relevant here since neither 10/11 Fred was good to win any 03-15 edition at least. So he displayed strong form in two 2011 slams vs one in 2010, that's the difference.

I specified my comment up there btw

Had Fed got past Tsonga in Wim 11 he would have a chance of winning i would say. Fair enough though and WTF goes to 10 as well.

 

[Sabratha]

lol at bringing up 2011 Roddick? He could play one great match and would fizzle out afterwards. Happened here, 2012 Miami as well.

It's more about Nadal's level here. I doubt he'd have stood much more of a chance had it been '07.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Had Fed got past Tsonga in Wim 11 he would have a chance of winning i would say. Fair enough though and WTF goes to 10 as well.

Federer couldn't conjure BP in 24 consecutive return games, some level this...

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

It's more about Nadal's level here. I doubt he'd have stood much more of a chance had it been '07.

Serving like in 07 QF? That Roddick has a chance against anyone, try breaking this 70% serving monster with his service quality.

 

[RS]

Federer couldn't conjure BP in 24 consecutive return games, some level this...

Served very well though. Not prime level but considering the way he matchedd up with Djoko in slams that year. I think Nadal is the favourite vs him though in a final.

 

[Sabratha]

Serving like in 07 QF? That Roddick has a chance against anyone, try breaking this 70% serving monster with his service quality.

I don't see Roddick beating that version of Nadal at the US Open. He'd be outclutched in 4 sets.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I don't see Roddick beating that version of Nadal at the US Open. He'd be outclutched in 4 sets.

2011 Nadal is sure known for being clutch outside of RG.

 

[Sabratha]

Served very well though. Not prime level but considering the way he matchedd up with Djoko in slams that year. I think Nadal is the favourite vs him though in a final.

I'd actually have it the other way around. Considering what's happened at Wimbledon in 2019 I think Federer would've gotten him there. He'd have more trouble with Djokovic IMO but he still may win.

 

[Sabratha]

2011 Nadal is sure known for being clutch outside of RG.

Against guys like Roddick, sure.

 

[Third Serve]

I don't see Roddick beating that version of Nadal at the US Open. He'd be outclutched in 4 sets.

Ned wasn’t that clutch at all in 2011, outside RG of course.

 

[Sabratha]

Ned wasn’t that clutch at all in 2011, outside RG of course.

Against Djokovic he wasn't but against other opposition he was more than half-decent. I think he'd get the job done against Roddick.

 

[zipplock]

I can never unsee that ....

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Against Djokovic he wasn't but against other opposition he was more than half-decent. I think he'd get the job done against Roddick.

What close matches he won against other competition? Cincy 3R vs Verdasco and WTF RR vs Fish? pls

 

[Sabratha]

What close matches he won against other competition? Cincy 3R vs Verdasco and WTF RR vs Fish? pls

He's historically bad at the World Tour Finals and him getting upset doesn't mean it was a terrible match. Verdasco wasn't far off his playing prime in 2011 either.

His slam results are what I'm using as a reference point by the way. Outside the Australian he made the other majors losing two to Djokovic and winning one over Federer in a hard fought match.