Agressiveness of a first serve?

[Amone]

I have a mediocre serve. I used to think it was absolutely terrible... however, the percentage is up (averages about 50%, I guess... anywhere between 95 and 20 depending on the particular minute) and I discovered today that as inaccurate and seemingly paceless as it is, people can rarely just put it away (it's as heavily over-spun as I can get it to still have some drive). I can swing, actually, a lot harder (another revalation from today... before, I definitely didn't think I could) but I can't say much about the percentages I'd probably have.

My question: Is it better to go for broke on the first serve at the expense of percentage -- assuming I worked on my second serve to back it up -- or to use a more conservative first serve as well?

Some notes on my specific case:

- I try to serve-and-volley (as well as chip-and-charge!) as often as possible on both first and second serves. This wasn't exactly a hard choice, as my first and second serves, 'til now, were identical.

- I can't hit anything other than a kick. I can hit through it to some extent, but for the most part I'm so much more comfortable trying to brush up the back of the ball.

- My serve is, alternately, either A) inconsistent to the max, or B) absolutely consistent. I was playing a practice match on Friday, for instance: My first game, I was hitting clean, agressive, consistent serves. My second service game (or maybe third), up 2-0 (or 3-1, depending...), I hit four double faults in a row.

Again: If I could hit a hard, comparitively inconsistent first serve but shore it in for my second serve, would that be preferable or inferior to hitting two 'shored up' serves, for the average point?

 

[dave333]

In singles, you usually tilt a little to a more go for broke attitude, while in doubles its definitely a more conservative way to do it.

Sounds like your serve, with some consistency, is great for dubs.

 

[SlapShot]

I guess it really depends on how much you can add by going for broke. I routinely serve two identical serves pace and spin-wise, because I find it easier to hit two that are usually in the area of 80% than one that is 50% and one that is 90%. If people aren't able to sit on your serve, I would say that hitting a pair of similar serves might be your best bet.

You are really only as good as your second serve, and if people aren't putting it in a corner for a winner on the return, I'd just work on adding a little bit of pace to it and be comfortable.

 

[Slazenger]

You need to work on your serve. 4 double faults in a row is just crazy. The more crazy thing is you say you only have a kick serve. How you end up being 0 for 8 on kick serves is very problematic.

WHen you can hit slice, kick and flat serves properly and can place them reasonably well to the 6 targets, you can decide how you want to serve based on your game and point in a match.


Personally I need a high percentage of first serves. At least 60% to play well.
So on important points I may 3/4 my first serve but aim right for the line or corner.

 

[Amone]

In singles, you usually tilt a little to a more go for broke attitude, while in doubles its definitely a more conservative way to do it.

Sounds like your serve, with some consistency, is great for dubs.

It's not bad for doubles, and if I hadn't lost so many matches last year (thus giving me a horrifying attitude when I play doubles) I'm sure I'd have a great time with it.

I guess it really depends on how much you can add by going for broke. I routinely serve two identical serves pace and spin-wise, because I find it easier to hit two that are usually in the area of 80% than one that is 50% and one that is 90%. If people aren't able to sit on your serve, I would say that hitting a pair of similar serves might be your best bet.

You are really only as good as your second serve, and if people aren't putting it in a corner for a winner on the return, I'd just work on adding a little bit of pace to it and be comfortable.

Indeed... you might be right on that, SS. I'll have to give that option some thought.

You need to work on your serve. 4 double faults in a row is just crazy. The more crazy thing is you say you only have a kick serve. How you end up being 0 for 8 on kick serves is very problematic.

WHen you can hit slice, kick and flat serves properly and can place them reasonably well to the 6 targets, you can decide how you want to serve based on your game and point in a match.


Personally I need a high percentage of first serves. At least 60% to play well.
So on important points I may 3/4 my first serve but aim right for the line or corner.

I tend to get a little heady and streaky.. but say I frame it out of the box twice (over the whole game), I miss two just on general inaccuracy, and the other four chalk up to my displeasure (and attempts at remedying, like when I overhit because I clipped the net) at those first four, and you've got your 8 faults. I'm not saying it's alright, and especially not good, but it's not as if it's not understandable.

 

[Noveson]

It depends at what level of play you are playing at. The better players you play, the more you are going to have to lean towards the "go for broke serve" and vice versa. If players can't hurt you off your serve at this level, well then just make sure you get your serve in. Missing hard first serves and getting them in once in a while will not make up for the many double faults.

It sounds like your consistency issues just have to do with watching the ball.

 

[Amone]

It depends at what level of play you are playing at. The better players you play, the more you are going to have to lean towards the "go for broke serve" and vice versa. If players can't hurt you off your serve at this level, well then just make sure you get your serve in. Missing hard first serves and getting them in once in a while will not make up for the many double faults.

It sounds like your consistency issues just have to do with watching the ball.

Really? That's the first I've heard of that idea. I'm intrigued, tell me more. What is this 'watching the ball?' Do you mean 'keep your eye on the ball longer?' That's probably exactly what it was, silly me.

Uh... you know what, you're actually right about that, I hadn't thought of it that way either. Thanks for all the advice, guys!

 

[excelcier]

go for the big shot on your first

 

[SlapShot]

You know, there is a school of thought that says that you should go for broke on your first serve if you can get a certain amount of them in if you are able to force errors with your first serve. That implies, however, that your serve is a weapon. If it isn't, I don't think that destroying a first serve and getting 1 out of 3 in does you any good if you are living off of your second serve in the end.

 

[Amone]

@ Slapshot: There is that school, yeah. I wasn't sure, though, because my serve generally seems (so far) to elicit weak replies as it stands -- maybe it was just a good day the past few days, but when my serve goes in, it rarely comes back agressively if at all -- If I were to full tilt attack that serve, how much more damage would be done?

That's the reason I ask, to be truthful. I figure, if a relaxed 'spin it in' serve does damage, what would happen if I kept that same heavy spin, but increased the pace?

 

[Noveson]

Really? That's the first I've heard of that idea. I'm intrigued, tell me more. What is this 'watching the ball?' Do you mean 'keep your eye on the ball longer?' That's probably exactly what it was, silly me.

Uh... you know what, you're actually right about that, I hadn't thought of it that way either. Thanks for all the advice, guys!

You would think that everyone would have gotten that figured out by now, but that is still my main problem. I blame it on basketball, you never watch the ball in basketball.

 

[Bottle Rocket]

It depends on who you're playing! It depends on who you're playing no matter what level you're at. You've got to make adjustments.

If you're playing someone with a really great return of serve, you don't want them getting their hands on second serves. You want a very high percantage of first serves by making them as consistant as they have to be for the high percentage. If they are hitting clean winners off your first serve (consistantly), you guys are not at the same level and you don't deserve to win. At this point you would have nothing to lose by going for a huge first serve.

If you're playing someone who can't hit high balls, just hit kick serves. Get a high percentage of first serves in and aim them at their weaker side, the side that has the most trouble with the high bouncing balls.

These are two examples, there are a lot more. This is where thinking comes in. Don't play everyone the same, do what you have to do to give yourself the best chance possible. Find out what your opponent prefers and don't give them that. You need variety on your serve, which in my mind is one of the most underrated aspects of a good tennis player.

I also agree with Slazenger. Four double faults in a row no matter what kind of serve your hitting is not going to cut it. You've got to play within yourself. If you're only hitting kick serves (evidently not enough kick?), you've got to get them in. That's a serve you should have confidence in so you can really hit out on your second serves without fear of hitting long.

It sounds like you need to develop much more variety and consistancy on your serve. You're no different from everyone else on this board, I am sure everyone on here could find a way to improve their serve. In the end though, regardless of how good it is, you have to make adjustments depending on who you're playing.

I absolutely love to play people that go for a huge first serve and miss 75% of them. Most people with the biggest and flattest first serves seem to have the worst second serves and that's what I live for. They aren't going to get away with that.

 

[Amone]

It depends on who you're playing! It depends on who you're playing no matter what level you're at. You've got to make adjustments.

If you're playing someone with a really great return of serve, you don't want them getting their hands on second serves. You want a very high percantage of first serves by making them as consistant as they have to be for the high percentage. If they are hitting clean winners off your first serve (consistantly), you guys are not at the same level and you don't deserve to win. At this point you would have nothing to lose by going for a huge first serve.

If you're playing someone who can't hit high balls, just hit kick serves. Get a high percentage of first serves in and aim them at their weaker side, the side that has the most trouble with the high bouncing balls.

These are two examples, there are a lot more. This is where thinking comes in. Don't play everyone the same, do what you have to do to give yourself the best chance possible. Find out what your opponent prefers and don't give them that. You need variety on your serve, which in my mind is one of the most underrated aspects of a good tennis player.

I also agree with Slazenger. Four double faults in a row no matter what kind of serve your hitting is not going to cut it. You've got to play within yourself. If you're only hitting kick serves (evidently not enough kick?), you've got to get them in. That's a serve you should have confidence in so you can really hit out on your second serves without fear of hitting long.

It sounds like you need to develop much more variety and consistancy on your serve. You're no different from everyone else on this board, I am sure everyone on here could find a way to improve their serve. In the end though, regardless of how good it is, you have to make adjustments depending on who you're playing.

I absolutely love to play people that go for a huge first serve and miss 75% of them. Most people with the biggest and flattest first serves seem to have the worst second serves and that's what I live for. They aren't going to get away with that.

Like I said (or tried to say, maybe I failed) before... my consistency isn't a technical error. That's the only point of disagreement I have. Thanks for the advice.

 

[John89]

I wuoldn't go for broke seriously if ur good at placing it I always pick on the weaker wing I can normally get my serve right down the line via deuce court and ad court right have a lil trouble picking on the backhand there but placement kills I notice that I win the cheap points with a decent paced serve on the weaker end, but I play #1 doubles so I think we lean toward the placement side

 

[fuzz nation]

OK, be honest now. How many buckets of serves have you hit in the last two weeks? If you aren't getting one or maybe two a week in, you're probably not doing enough maintenance on it. Playing a lot of games doesn't count because you aren't repeating the motion and honing your muscle memory. If you are doing the practicing and still getting streaky with the double faults, you ought to get a brief lesson to clean up your delivery.

I lean more toward placement, but about once a game I'll fire off a good heater just so that my opponent knows to give a little room in case the fastball lands on my first serve. That also opens up the option of a funky off speed first serve to keep him really off balance. Doubles requires a higher percentage of first serves in for placement, while singles needs variety as I see it. If I keep bombing my flat first serves, my opponent eventually gets used to them and smacks a lot of them back with a simple blocking motion.

 

[Amone]

OK, be honest now. How many buckets of serves have you hit in the last two weeks? If you aren't getting one or maybe two a week in, you're probably not doing enough maintenance on it. Playing a lot of games doesn't count because you aren't repeating the motion and honing your muscle memory. If you are doing the practicing and still getting streaky with the double faults, you ought to get a brief lesson to clean up your delivery.

I lean more toward placement, but about once a game I'll fire off a good heater just so that my opponent knows to give a little room in case the fastball lands on my first serve. That also opens up the option of a funky off speed first serve to keep him really off balance. Doubles requires a higher percentage of first serves in for placement, while singles needs variety as I see it. If I keep bombing my flat first serves, my opponent eventually gets used to them and smacks a lot of them back with a simple blocking motion.

Huh... I can't say for sure. I take weekly group lessons, and each court goes through a shopping-cart-style hopper at least once; each court tends to have four to six people on it. Which is why I can't say for sure.

Like I said, I think it's a lot of mental problems, but I also recognize the need to practice my serve. After all, it's one of the two most important shots in the game!

 

[shindemac]

It depends on how good your second serve is. If you can't get 90%+ in, then use 2 second serves. If you know you're on, then yes, go for the first serve. But if you're off, then do whatever you can to get it in!!!

I think u need to get real about your abilities. Double-faulting a whole game away just cannot be excused. I think you need to face the facts that your serve is not as good as you think it is. The fact that you're so streaky (either 90% in or 25% in) adds further credence to this. I recommend you do the work that's necessary to improve your serve. Don't try to make lemonade out of lemons.

 

[Amone]

It depends on how good your second serve is. If you can't get 90%+ in, then use 2 second serves. If you know you're on, then yes, go for the first serve. But if you're off, then do whatever you can to get it in!!!

I think u need to get real about your abilities. Double-faulting a whole game away just cannot be excused. I think you need to face the facts that your serve is not as good as you think it is. The fact that you're so streaky (either 90% in or 25% in) adds further credence to this. I recommend you do the work that's necessary to improve your serve. Don't try to make lemonade out of lemons.

No, no it isn't (as good as I might make it sound). However, I don't generally try to make it sound at all good; I cite it as a major weakness in my game. I only say what I have evidence to believe, and I have evidence to believe that it's streaky, and I had originally believed that when it did go in, it was ineffective. I saw that it's more effective than I'd believed.

What work is necessary? For a while, I practiced my serve for about an hour, daily. (edit: to clarify, I am referring to a basket of balls, not match-play) No improvements there. That's why I say it's a mental problem: (in my experience) streaks don't come from technique, they come from your head. I say, "I have a mental problem, I'm streaky, but when I'm on it's good." You say, "You're streaky, therefor you can't be good." We're saying the same thing, you ken?

 

[shindemac]

Wow, you are a headcase. Do you seriously think you can improve your serve without working on it? Do you think if and when you become a 4.5 or 5.0, that your serve will magically be better, hitting up to 110 with lots of kick and to the corners at will? If that doesn't convince you, ask any good college player how much time they spent working on their serves. They will probably say they worked on it consistently for at least a few times a week.

 

[Amone]

Wow, you are a headcase. Do you seriously think you can improve your serve without working on it? Do you think if and when you become a 4.5 or 5.0, that your serve will magically be better, hitting up to 110 with lots of kick and to the corners at will? If that doesn't convince you, ask any good college player how much time they spent working on their serves. They will probably say they worked on it consistently for at least a few times a week.

No, I think that there are a lot of things I need to work on before I hit 4.5 or 5.0. (EDIT: And to answer your question more directly, yes and no. Rating depends on match results. When/if I hit 4.5 or 5.0, I'll have that serve if I need it. I'll be 4.5 because I have a good enough serve or stroke or footwork or whatever I have, not the other way around.) My serve is only one of those things. Another is my stamina, my focus, hitting my backhand (as opposed to slicing it), getting to overheads with more time, not getting lazy with my feet when I'm outclassing someone or tired, and the list goes on.

My serve is par for the course in my game. It's never been a focus, and I got by with a worse serve. That tells me that if I want to move up, with all those things to improve, I need to work on those things I actually consider strengths. The weapons in your arsenal are just as important as the weaknesses. You need to make weapons big and weaknesses small. One of my weaknesses got smaller (speaking of which, I played another practice match today. Still DFs, but nothing like friday. In fact, enough that when I lost this time it was due entirely to being tired from heat and lazy with my volley placement, and not at all to double faulting! Even though I hit plenty of serves that were... more agressive than entirely necessary.) and that means that my game is a bit better.

To be honest, I think what I really need work on, like I said, isn't my serve, but that laundry list of serious problems. The biggest is definitely the overhead setup and the volley placement, as the first could lose me a match on its own merits, and the second did.