And this is why slam H2H is not the be all end

[Hitman]

The last six slams in which Djokodal were both in the draw

AO 2020 - Djokovic waiting in the final, Nadal out by end of the quarters
RG 2020 - Djokovic plays Nadal, Nadal in the final crushes him for the title
AO 2021 - Djokovic waiting in the final, Nadal out by end of the quarters
RG 2021 - Djokovic plays Nadal in the semi final, Djokovic outlasts Nadal in an epic for the win
RG 2022 - Djokovic plays Nadal in the quarter final, Nadal overwhelms Djokovic for the win
W 2022 - Djokovic waiting in the final, Nadal out after withdrawing with injury in his semi

The only times they played each other in the last three seasons, was at RG. Yet, each time both were in the draw together, in non clay slams, Djokovic was always waiting in the final. This is why I don't put too much stock in slam H2H, if one guy simply doesn't make it to the other outside of a particular surface, it skews things. Nadal sadly was injured in his semi at Wimbledon, and I was hoping we would get Djokodal here, would have been great to see it, but it doesn't change the point that we only got these two playing at RG and on clay, when Novak was waiting in numerous other non-clay finals for Rafa these past few seasons.

 

[spottishwood]

Inb4 2-1, bud

 

[Entername]

AO 2022 - Nadal waiting in the semifinals, Novak eliminated at the Melbourne airport

 

[Deleted member 792641]

2-1, bud

 

[NoleFam]

The Slam head to head is really a minor stat when 10 of the matches were at RG and only 8 combined at the other 3 Slams. Like you said in the last 3 seasons, they only played at RG. Even outside of the last 3 seasons, he's just failed to meet Djokovic much at Wimbledon or AO although Djokovic has won in the double digits when you combine those 2 Slams.

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

h2h is a good gauge when you got two guys so close in slam counts and big titles.

 

[victorcruz]

Instead of celebrating this historic win, you dwell on h2h with another goat.

Talk about a miserable lot.

 

[UnforcedTerror]

Nothing is surprising here. Bulldal has been always a one trick pony.

 

[Spencer Gore]

You never hear this argument when people discuss Borg and McEnroe being 7-7 in H2H. They're always seen as equal forever, despite never playing on clay.

 

[spottishwood]

Nothing is surprising here. Bulldal has been always a one trick pony.

Talk about baiting ROFLMAO

 

[RaulRamirez]

I don't put all that much stock in H2H stats, period.
Let's say Player A and Player B have almost identical career resumes.
If A gets the better of B h2h, then B is the better player versus the rest of the field.
Both count equally to me.
(Also, h2h already shows up in the other categories, as - especially at the highest levels - it already influences slams, time at #1, etc.

 

[T23]

Nothing is surprising here. Bulldal has been always a one trick pony.

But that one trick is a show-stealer when it’s 14-7 in slams Rafa vs Novak… 2:1 ratio. That’s just undeniable.

 

[Hitman]

Nothing is surprising here. Bulldal has been always a one trick pony.

Nadal is an all surface player, they all are. The point is that Djokovic has made several non-clay slam finals, when Nadal was in the draw recently, but we never got Djokodal. This year, unfortunately he was injured. But it does skew numbers.

 

[RaulRamirez]

You never hear this argument when people discuss Borg and McEnroe being 7-7 in H2H. They're always seen as equal forever, despite never playing on clay.

Perhaps, but nobody credible rates Mac's career quite with Bjorn's.

 

[Antonio Puente]

AO 2022 - Nadal waiting in the semifinals, Novak eliminated at the Melbourne airport

Djoker on vacation at Park Hotel.

 

[DanG7]

The last six slams in which Djokodal were both in the draw

AO 2020 - Djokovic waiting in the final, Nadal out by end of the quarters
RG 2020 - Djokovic plays Nadal, Nadal in the final crushes him for the title
AO 2021 - Djokovic waiting in the final, Nadal out by end of the quarters
RG 2021 - Djokovic plays Nadal in the semi final, Djokovic outlasts Nadal in an epic for the win
RG 2022 - Djokovic plays Nadal in the quarter final, Nadal overwhelms Djokovic for the win
W 2022 - Djokovic waiting in the final, Nadal out after withdrawing with injury in his semi

The only times they played each other in the last three seasons, was at RG. Yet, each time both were in the draw together, in non clay slams, Djokovic was always waiting in the final. This is why I don't put too much stock in slam H2H, if one guy simply doesn't make it to the other outside of a particular surface, it skews things. Nadal sadly was injured in his semi at Wimbledon, and I was hoping we would get Djokodal here, would have been great to see it, but it doesn't change the point that we only got these two playing at RG and on clay, when Novak was waiting in numerous other non-clay finals for Rafa these past few seasons.

This applies very much to federer and nadal h2h at slams too. 6 times at the french. Federer never missed the final from 2005-09 on nadals best surface. Only 3 at Wimbledon in the same span 2006-08. Never at the us open. As per with any nadal vs Djokovic or federer debate, Clay heavily skews numbers in nadals favour.

 

[Hitman]

The Slam head to head is really a minor stat when 10 of the matches were at RG and only 8 combined at the other 3 Slams. Like you said in the last 3 seasons, they only played at RG. Even outside of the last 3 seasons, he's just failed to meet Djokovic much at Wimbledon or AO although Djokovic has won in the double digits when you combine those 2 Slams.

It is what it is, but I noticed the last three seasons, six Djokodal draws, only matches taking place at RG, while Djokovic waiting in non-clay slam finals. This is why context is always needed when looking at numbers IMO.

 

[ChrisRF]

You never hear this argument when people discuss Borg and McEnroe being 7-7 in H2H. They're always seen as equal forever, despite never playing on clay.

Borg is definitely seen as way above McEnroe universally.

 

[urban]

If i am right, then Nadal won more USOs than Djoker, and that is hard court, despite not playing at all in the last two outings. Also Nadal won way more titles at Rome, although Rome is Djokers best surface at Masters, and the hth there is also quite significantly towards Nadal..

 

[NoleFam]

It is what it is, but I noticed the last three seasons, six Djokodal draws, only matches taking place at RG, while Djokovic waiting in non-clay slam finals. This is why context is always needed when looking at numbers IMO.

Much context is needed because it's heavily skewed. This wouldn't need to be brought up if didn't get thrown out there so often like it's a telltale sign of who's overall better.

 

[DanG7]

It is what it is, but I noticed the last three seasons, six Djokodal draws, only matches taking place at RG, while Djokovic waiting in non-clay slam finals. This is why context is always needed when looking at numbers IMO.

This is why Djokovic and Federer are better than nadal. They are superior on grass and hard by a distance and they are second and third by a distance when it comes to clay. I would argue nadal isn’t even the third best grass courter of his generation. As for hard yes nadals a clear third behind Djokovic and fed.

 

[InsideOut900]

I don't put all that much stock in H2H stats, period.
Let's say Player A and Player B have almost identical career resumes.
If A gets the better of B h2h, then B is the better player versus the rest of the field.
Both count equally to me.
(Also, h2h already shows up in the other categories, as - especially at the highest levels - it already influences slams, time at #1, etc.

Someone gets it.

Achievements and consistency is the real H2H

 

[Hitman]

You never hear this argument when people discuss Borg and McEnroe being 7-7 in H2H. They're always seen as equal forever, despite never playing on clay.

Yes, they don't basically say 3-1 McEnroe....they count the whole H2H and say 7-7. The same way with Sampras and Agassi they always say 20-14 and not 6-3.

 

[Hitman]

If i am right, then Nadal won more USOs than Djoker, and that is hard court, despite not playing at all in the last two outings. Also Nadal won way more titles at Rome, although Rome is Djokers best surface at Masters, and the hth there is also quite significantly towards Nadal..

Yes, you are right that Nadal has more USO. But Nadal has only ONCE made the the USO final when both were in the draw, and Djokovic failed to do it, back in 2019. Nadal failed to make it to Djokovic in 2007, 2015, 2016, 2018 when both were in the draw, and last two years, he simply decided to skip the event, with 2021 being because of injury.

The point is simple, they have played six slams together in the last three seasons, three on clay, and three off clay, and all three meetings happened on clay, while Novak waited in the finals of the off clay slams every time.

Nadal owns Djokovic on clay, that cannot be questioned. 8-2 at RG, and of course dominating H2H overall on clay.

 

[Antonio Puente]

Why stop at 6?

From 2017-2019, Nadal was in 7 finals and Djoker only made made one of them. Djoker made 4 finals during that and met Nadal half the time.

 

[DanG7]

Why stop at 6?

From 2017-2019, Nadal was in 7 finals and Djoker only made made one of them. Djoker made 4 finals during that and met Nadal half the time.

Start of 2017 up until mid 2018 which attributes to 6 slams, Djokovic was basically incapacitated with injury. Hope that clears that up.

 

[Hitman]

This is why Djokovic and Federer are better than nadal. They are superior on grass and hard by a distance and they are second and third by a distance when it comes to clay. I would argue nadal isn’t even the third best grass courter of his generation. As for hard yes nadals a clear third behind Djokovic and fed.

The real point is, this shows that tennis is NOT mano-e-mano boxing style. It is very much a tournament format knock out event, and if someone cannot keep making it to the final dance, that should tell you something about the nature of this game.

 

[Antonio Puente]

Start of 2017 up until mid 2018 which attributes to 6 slams, Djokovic was basically incapacitated with injury. Hope that clears that up.

Oh yes, thanks. The thread makes perfect sense now.

 

[DanG7]

Applies to federer vs Djokovic also. When federer hit a green patch in 2017 Djokovic was not there.

The real point is, this shows that tennis is NOT mano-e-mano boxing style. It is very much a tournament format knock out event, and if someone cannot keep making it to the final dance, that should tell you something about the nature of this game.

Hence why federer’s consistency in the mid 2000’s of 23 slam semi finals in a row and 10 finals in a row/ followed by 8 finals in a row- should be celebrated more. Fed was always there

 

[Hitman]

Applies to federer vs Djokovic also. When federer hit a green patch in 2017 Djokovic was not there.

Hence why federer’s consistency in the mid 2000’s of 23 slam semi finals in a row and 10 finals in a row/ followed by 8 finals in a row- should be celebrated more. Fed was always there

True, but Djokovic was making it to peak Federer even back at AO 2007.

 

[DanG7]

True, but Djokovic was making it to peak Federer even back at AO 2007.

I think we primarily agree. Djokovic and federer have displayed more consistency throughout there careers, wether that ends in a title or not.
Nadal seems to have green patches or green years. For much of 2011-2016 he was a one slam a year guy at the french.

 

[Hitman]

I think we primarily agree. Djokovic and federer have displayed more consistency throughout there careers, wether that ends in a title or not.
Nadal seems to have green patches or green years. For much of 2011-2016 he was a one slam a year guy at the french.

Nadal is more like a sprinter....explosive peaks followed by big drops.

Fedovic are more like marathon runners....consistency in speed and performance over longer periods.

 

[brc444]

For me, overall H2H broken down by slams, outside slams, surface, and time periods just gives your more information to understand the H2H better.

 

[AgassiSuperSlam11]

Duplicate post.

 

[Federer_pilon]

The last six slams in which Djokodal were both in the draw

AO 2020 - Djokovic waiting in the final, Nadal out by end of the quarters
RG 2020 - Djokovic plays Nadal, Nadal in the final crushes him for the title
AO 2021 - Djokovic waiting in the final, Nadal out by end of the quarters
RG 2021 - Djokovic plays Nadal in the semi final, Djokovic outlasts Nadal in an epic for the win
RG 2022 - Djokovic plays Nadal in the quarter final, Nadal overwhelms Djokovic for the win
W 2022 - Djokovic waiting in the final, Nadal out after withdrawing with injury in his semi

The only times they played each other in the last three seasons, was at RG. Yet, each time both were in the draw together, in non clay slams, Djokovic was always waiting in the final. This is why I don't put too much stock in slam H2H, if one guy simply doesn't make it to the other outside of a particular surface, it skews things. Nadal sadly was injured in his semi at Wimbledon, and I was hoping we would get Djokodal here, would have been great to see it, but it doesn't change the point that we only got these two playing at RG and on clay, when Novak was waiting in numerous other non-clay finals for Rafa these past few seasons.

Why are we only looking at the last 6 slams when H2H is based on their entire career?

 

[AgassiSuperSlam11]

Nobody who understands sports in general will claim h2h is the be all and end all of stats. Borg beating an old Laver and Seles defeating Nav who is 17 years older has to be put in proper context.

If one brings up 10 matches in RG this is a fair point about Nadal having a favorable advantage. However, this is mitigated with the 9 matches they played in Rome which is Nole's favorite clay tournament. Nole has won Rome 6 times and made it to 6 other finals and is 3-6 against Nadal in the Italian Open. BTW, none of the Rome finals were Bo5 as in the old days. Why mention that? Because Nadal is 21-0 in Bo5 clay finals and the 2014 result may have been different. What are the favorite Nadal hardcourts? They are Canada, USO, and Mexico Open. He has won those tournaments collectively 13 times (12 in HC as Acapulco use to be clay). Nadal has faced Nole 6 times in those matches five times single and once in doubles and has a 4-2 record against Nole there. Why would Nadal prefer to play Nole in those locations? No major revelation revealed that Mexico is essentially a Category 1 Court Pace Index and even slower than IW and Miami. Why those North American courts in late summer at night? Because NYC, Ontario, and Quebec at night tend to be cooler and can be windy. Nadal won the 2013 USO because the wind had 25-30 MPH wind gusts beginning in the 3rd set. As a result, 18.5% of their HC matches were played in Nadal's favorite HC locations while nearly 33% of their clay matches were played in Nole's favorite clay tournament. Who was won Rome more than Nole? Only Nadal and this to me evens everything out.

The same can be said about Nole-Fed in HC. They played 38 matches in HC but 23 were on deco turf in which Fed leads 14-9. Nole's dominance came in plexicushion (6-1), Greenset (3-1), and laykfold 1-0. Fed loves Cincy/Shanghai in which he was 5-1 against Nole, but he was 1-7 against Nole in IW/AO. This with the indoor matches kind of levels everything out as Nole-Nadal.

If you want to add more HC matches to the Nole-Nadal rivalry then please feel free to add the 8 matches played in Exhibition and Doubles which Nadal leads 5-3, but then you have a 34-33 h2h in favor of Nadal so let's go back to the RG being skewered.

 

[DjokoLand]

It will be 9 years come September since Nadal beat Djokovic off Clay.

 

[Phoenix*]

It will be 9 years come September since Nadal beat Djokovic off Clay.

Has a supposed ATG ever been more humiliated by his superior/rival?

 

[vanioMan]

Too bad we didn't get that match at Wimby this year. Rafa, unbeated in Slams and full of confidence against Novak, the best player on grass over the past 10 years, however never truly pushed or tested during any of his GS matches this year (except the RG QF). It would've truly been 50-50.

 

[AgassiSuperSlam11]

This applies very much to Federer and Nadal h2h at slams too. 6 times at the French. Federer never missed the final from 2005-09 on nadals best surface. Only 3 at Wimbledon in the same span 2006-08. Never at the us open. As per with any Nadal vs Djokovic or Federer debate, Clay heavily skews numbers in nadals favour.

Perhaps not in that timespan but he had plenty of chances to face Nadal in the US Open. Can't blame Nadal for the five times that Fed failed to win his match to face him at the US Open?

2010 Lost to Nole before Nadal
2011 Lost to Nole before Nadal
2013 Lost to Robredo before Nadal
2017 Lost to Delpo before Nadal
2018 Lost to Milman before Nadal

Nadal also beat Tsitsipas in the 2018 Roger's cup the same guy who beat Nole and also beat Medvedev in the 2019 US Open the guy who beat Wawrinka who beat Nole.

Wow, Nolefam should be popping champagne and having beers but go back to this debate again. BTW, Fed fans don't know why you are happy that now two players have won more slams than your idol. This is pretty weird.

 

[AgassiSuperSlam11]

Too bad we didn't get that match at Wimby this year. Rafa, unbeated in Slams and full of confidence against Novak, the best player on grass over the past 10 years, however never truly pushed or tested during any of his GS matches this year (except the RG QF). It would've truly been 50-50.

I would've favored Nole like 55-45 simply because of the weather. If it was 72F or lower than Nadal with his serve, volley, and excellent lateral movement had a fair shot. He won the AO as a category 4 CPI which he didn't even do in 2009.

 

[AgassiSuperSlam11]

Has a supposed ATG ever been more humiliated by his superior/rival?

Ask Connors who lost 17 in a row off grass against Lendl.
Ask Evert who once lost 13 in a row to Martina.
Ask Mcenroe who once lost 10 out of 11 to Lendl.
Ask Nole who once lost 11 in a row off HC to Nadal and also 7 straight Bo5 clay matches.

BTW, all of them are ATG.

 

[BGod]

Same with Fed at USO.

5 times a match away, 3 likely wins for Fed, last was bad back Fed so ok nobody wanted that. But still.

 

[Entername]

Same with Fed at USO.

5 times a match away, 3 likely wins for Fed, last was bad back Fed so ok nobody wanted that. But still.

Actually Fed was the one who mostly stopped a Fedal match from occurring when they were close to playing each other.

Dude literally blew two 40-15's in consecutive years to Djokovic in 2010/11, Fedal in NYC was one point away from happening four different times!!

 

[DanG7]

Same with Fed at USO.

5 times a match away, 3 likely wins for Fed, last was bad back Fed so ok nobody wanted that. But still.

nadal failed to reach fed 2008,2009 1 match away. and Federer was to blame 10/11. It’s one of the sports greatest shames they never played at the us open.

 

[DanG7]

Actually Fed was the one who mostly stopped a Fedal match from occurring when they were close to playing each other.

Dude literally blew two 40-15's in consecutive years to Djokovic in 2010/11, Fedal in NYC was one point away from happening four different times!!

Disagree. Fed nearly made it happen and losing to a guy most people consider the goat in Djokovic is no shame. Nadal blew it vs Murray and del potro in 2008/9

 

[The Fedfather]

Is there anyone here who claims the Slam H2H is the be-all though? The H2H arguments were the Nadal fans domain until Djokovic moved ahead in his H2H vs Rafa. Now it just pops up randomly at times and doesn't get much traction.

 

[Entername]

Disagree. Fed nearly made it happen and losing to a guy most people consider the goat in Djokovic is no shame. Nadal blew it vs Murray and del potro in 2008/9

Still, he had two MPs in back-to-back years to set up Fedal in NYC and he choked. Every Federer fan I've met feels angry about the trilogy of 40-15's against Novak. Delpo beat Fed as well in 2009 so the dude was just too good for anyone that fortnight. 2008 yeah Rafa kinda dropped the ball there especially because of how good he was in 2008 coming into the USO

 

[PUSB]

nadal failed to reach fed 2008,2009 1 match away. and Federer was to blame 10/11. It’s one of the sports greatest shames they never played at the us open.

It is a real shame yes. Would have been perfect in 2008. Honestly that match had it happened would have rivalled Wimbledon i think.
Its a shame we didnt get Nadal v Djokovic at AO this year as i fancy Nadal would have won that match. But who knows.
Regardless im sure it satisfies Nadal a little bit to have the dominant h2h at Majors although then again Nadal looks like the guy who only cares about the present. He does not seem.to dwell at all on the past.

 

[PUSB]

Is there anyone here who claims the Slam H2H is the be-all though? The H2H arguments were the Nadal fans domain until Djokovic moved ahead in his H2H vs Rafa. Now it just pops up randomly at times and doesn't get much traction.

Its more relevant than overall h2h but thats as about as far as it goes. Its not that big a deal.