Are we ready to accept that who wins tomorrow is a better player?

[ThirdEye]

People are talking about the age of 34 as if it's ancient. It really isn't that old especially if you can stay in shape and avoid injury which Federer has done. Players are playing at a high level for longer now. Stan is 30 and just won the French and up until this year, another player in his 30's Ferrer was regularly reaching the later stages of slams. Years ago, even Djokovic would be considered old at 28.

I know it's easy to focus on the present and perhaps forget what a players level was 10yrs ago but I've heard so many ex tennis players and pundits comment on how good Federer's movement is. Having played the game these guys know what they are talking about. So perhaps it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Federer's physicality, stamina, movement etc has not actually declined at all.

Yeah, he switched from a 90" frame which gave him 17 slams to a 97" just because.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Nadal has admitted that he is not as good as he was before.

Hardly a comparable situation and you insult both Fed and Djoko in relying on Nadal to support your argument. Nadal's 'admission' comes with the caveat that he's coming back from injury, which is always difficult, no? And if only he could get his confidence back, things would be ok, blah blah. He has never categorically said he cannot recapture past heights. No champion would. If they did, it would be pointless for them to keep playing. They live in the belief that they can still make it. Doesn't necessarily mean they can play as well as their younger versions.

 

[BGod]

Fed is nearly 6,000 points behind Novak. If he wins tomorrow he's exactly 5,000 back.

Amazing the lead he has.

 

[sbengte]

Both Federer and Djokovic claim that they play now better than ever. These claims are fully substantiated by their performance at USO2015 so far. Thus, this is the best version of Djokovic against the best version of Federer. Are we ready to accept that the one who wins tomorrow is a better player? I am. I prefer Djokovic, but if Federer wins tomorrow, I will happily say "Federer is a better player than Djokovic".

I don't know about better player, but the true #1 and the GOAT has already been decided 5 times in sureshs' REAL SLAM thread.

 

[timnz]

Both Federer and Djokovic claim that they play now better than ever. These claims are fully substantiated by their performance at USO2015 so far. Thus, this is the best version of Djokovic against the best version of Federer. Are we ready to accept that the one who wins tomorrow is a better player? I am. I prefer Djokovic, but if Federer wins tomorrow, I will happily say "Federer is a better player than Djokovic".

the fact is, though Federer is playing well, he doesn't have the speed of 10 years ago. So the answer is no. If Federer wins though it kind of says something about his relative strength compared to Djokovic though. Reason being, a past peak Federer beating a peak Djokovic means that a peak Federer would handle him even more convincingly.

 

[icedevil0289]

It terms of netplay, tactics and variety it is (even better than ever except netplay which was the best when Fed was young in 2001-2003). In terms of physicality (movement, stamina) and FH, it isn't. I think Fed's biggest problem is stamina, if Novak didn't have such a huge edge there currently, he'd likely have to blow Fed away/overpower him like he did in 2008 AO but that would be him playing out of his comfort zone.

As I said numerous times already, Fed should have switched to a bigger stick and hired Edberg 4-5 years ago, to have the physicality to match his current game. Unfortunately, I think he waited for too long.

yup, I don't know why it is so hard for people to believe that some things indeed did decline and somethings improved. His fh, which imo was his bread and butter, has declined quite a bit along with movement and both were incredibly crucial.

 

[icedevil0289]

It terms of netplay, tactics and variety it is (even better than ever except netplay which was the best when Fed was young in 2001-2003). In terms of physicality (movement, stamina) and FH, it isn't. I think Fed's biggest problem is stamina, if Novak didn't have such a huge edge there currently, he'd likely have to blow Fed away/overpower him like he did in 2008 AO but that would be him playing out of his comfort zone.

As I said numerous times already, Fed should have switched to a bigger stick and hired Edberg 4-5 years ago, to have the physicality to match his current game. Unfortunately, I think he waited for too long.

this is fed we're talking about. I'm surprised the stubborn oaf even decided to make the change when he did

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Yes, I'll accept that the one who wins on Sunday is the better player -- for THAT day (and on that given surface with the weather conditions as they are).

If Roger should lose, it does not diminish his previous accomplishments. If Novak wins, his h2h with Roger will be even again but he still has a way to go match his resumé. History will regard Novak, Roger and Rafa as some of the best to ever play the game. But, at this point, one has attained more than the other two.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Even if Fed pulls off the miracle and wins, Djoker fans will never admit he's greater, even though that is obvious to everyone else on earth.

If Djoker wins, it certainly doesn't mean he's greater than Fed, that's never going to happen. He'll never approach the records Roger has. It just means a 28 year old guy close to his peak beat the GOAT who is 6 years his senior. This final reminds me of the 2005 USO when peak Roger still struggled a bit to put away the great Agassi, who played inspired tennis even with a bad back.

 

[ABCD]

Even if Fed pulls off the miracle and wins, Djoker fans will never admit he's greater, even though that is obvious to everyone else on earth. If Djoker wins, it certainly doesn't mean he's greater than Fed, that's never going to happen. He'll never approach the records Roger has. It just means a 28 year old guy close to his peak beat the GOAT who is 6 years his senior. This final reminds me of the 2005 USO when peak Roger still struggled a bit to put away the great Agassi, who played inspired tennis even with a bad back.

You are confusing the outcome of the performance with the quality of the performance. As an example, I am now better than ever in my field, but my results are poorer than 10 years ago as field has changed. Do you think that Federer has impaired cognitive functions and that he is not able to assess his own performance?

 

[6-3 6-0]

You are confusing the outcome of the performance with the quality of the performance. As an example, I am now better than ever in my field, but my results are poorer than 10 years ago as field has changed. Do you think that Federer has impaired cognitive functions and that he is not able to assess his own performance?

Federer will never say in public/in front of the media that he has declined, no athlete will say that otherwise it will introduce new controversies and people will think he is trying to bring down other player's achievement when they beat him since he has declined. It's all PR.

Seriously, are you that naive or just trolling?

 

[Boom-Boom]

Federer will go down as the GOAT of GOATs. Djokovic is the best baseline ball basher who ever lived and is the overwhelming favorite to win, but he will never be in the same league as Federer.

Pretty much this. Except Agassi was a better ball basher.

 

[ABCD]

Federer will never say in public/in front of the media that he has declined, no athlete will say that otherwise it will introduce new controversies and people will think he is trying to bring down other player's achievement when they beat him since he has declined. It's all PR.

Seriously, are you that naive or just trolling?

I am that naïve. I believe that Federer is decent/honest human being and I trust him. Nobody forced him to claim that he is now better than ever. His play is also at the level that is not incompatible with such statement. Djokovic also agrees that Federer is now at his best. Regarding other athletes, as an example, Nadal said that he is not as good as he used to be, i.e. declined.

 

[tennisaddict]

I am that naïve. I believe that Federer is decent/honest human being and I trust him. Nobody forced him to claim that he is now better than ever. His play is also at the level that is not incompatible with such statement. Djokovic also agrees that Federer is now at his best. Regarding other athletes, as an example, Nadal said that he is not as good as he used to be, i.e. declined.

When he is making 70 million dollars every year in endorsements, he is not going to say his level is lower. If he says he is at a lower level , but still keeps #2 ranking is bad advertisement for ATP and Tennis

 

[dh003i]

It terms of netplay, tactics and variety it is (even better than ever except netplay which was the best when Fed was young in 2001-2003). In terms of physicality (movement, stamina) and FH, it isn't. I think Fed's biggest problem is stamina, if Novak didn't have such a huge edge there currently, he'd likely have to blow Fed away/overpower him like he did in 2008 AO but that would be him playing out of his comfort zone.

As I said numerous times already, Fed should have switched to a bigger stick and hired Edberg 4-5 years ago, to have the physicality to match his current game. Unfortunately, I think he waited for too long.

Yeah, it really is too bad he didn't commit earlier. Not sure what it is about Edberg that Annacone couldn't accomplish...maybe just that he's another all-time great player...but i also think Federer needed a 2013-like season to make the change. Ideally, he would have made the change in 2011, but I think that FO final prevented him from doing it.

Federer is absolutely playing the most beautiful tennis and tactically smart tennis he's ever played, although I still don't think he's as mentally strong as he was in his prime. However, I also think mental strength is over-rated: it comes largely from playing very good and winning a lot, having those physical traits. When that stops (see Nadal 2015), the mental strength declines too. It will also happen to Djokovic.

And of course Federer isn't as strong physically as he was, as endurant, or as good off the ground, and his forehand isn't what it was (although I think his backhand is better than it ever was).

No way I would say Federer who has appeared in finals but not won them -- especially Wimbledon -- is better than in his prime.

But of course he is going to say that he is playing better than ever, it's a winning mentality and a mental strength mechanism to generate confidence.

 

[Dark Victory]

"34 isn't old for a person, so therefore a tennis player that's been on tour for 17 or 18 years is expected to be at the peak of his powers". How outrageous is this? I suspect you aren't even 34 yourself. You are most likely a younger person who cannot grasp the fact that even though 34 is not old, that as an athlete the body is slightly slower to react and this takes a major toll on someone's tennis career. I don't care that people in their 30s are at their peak in terms of physical strength. I also don't care that players like Ferrer (who had little to NO success until he was 30 anyway) played some great tennis at an advanced age. You conveniently forget that while Ferrer was a journeyman ranked 50 (barely equating enough pro matches to equal Federer) that Federer was #1 in the world, battling against world class players and going deep into EVERY tournament.

Obviously you are clueless. Stick to what you know and don't spread tripe you cannot back up.

Indeed.

Djoker isn't such a bad guy, but his fans (who are so desperate to already put him on the same tier as Federer as to spout off stupidity like this) are a major reason why he's unpopular.

It's pathetic.

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

Yeah, it really is too bad he didn't commit earlier. Not sure what it is about Edberg that Annacone couldn't accomplish...maybe just that he's another all-time great player...but i also think Federer needed a 2013-like season to make the change. Ideally, he would have made the change in 2011, but I think that FO final prevented him from doing it.

Federer is absolutely playing the most beautiful tennis and tactically smart tennis he's ever played, although I still don't think he's as mentally strong as he was in his prime. However, I also think mental strength is over-rated: it comes largely from playing very good and winning a lot, having those physical traits. When that stops (see Nadal 2015), the mental strength declines too. It will also happen to Djokovic.

And of course Federer isn't as strong physically as he was, as endurant, or as good off the ground, and his forehand isn't what it was (although I think his backhand is better than it ever was).

No way I would say Federer who has appeared in finals but not won them -- especially Wimbledon -- is better than in his prime.

But of course he is going to say that he is playing better than ever, it's a winning mentality and a mental strength mechanism to generate confidence.

Best post of the month.

 

[chjtennis]

Even without knowing the results of the final, I think it is clear that Djokovic is the best player in 2015.

 

[Deleted member 3771]

obviously the better player will win the match.

 

[dh003i]

Even without knowing the results of the final, I think it is clear that Djokovic is the best player in 2015.

No question about that.

 

[Fugazi]

Both Federer and Djokovic claim that they play now better than ever. These claims are fully substantiated by their performance at USO2015 so far. Thus, this is the best version of Djokovic against the best version of Federer. Are we ready to accept that the one who wins tomorrow is a better player? I am. I prefer Djokovic, but if Federer wins tomorrow, I will happily say "Federer is a better player than Djokovic".

That's soooo biased towards Djokovic it doesn't even deserve an answer. "Better player at the 2015 US Open" is all we'll learn tomorrow.

 

[Fugazi]

Just out of curiosity, how much percentage do you give to each? I would go for 60-40 in favor of Djokovic

I'd say 65-35 in favor of Djokovic.

 

[Shaolin]

Both Federer and Djokovic claim that they play now better than ever. These claims are fully substantiated by their performance at USO2015 so far. Thus, this is the best version of Djokovic against the best version of Federer. Are we ready to accept that the one who wins tomorrow is a better player? I am. I prefer Djokovic, but if Federer wins tomorrow, I will happily say "Federer is a better player than Djokovic".

Its all about career accomplishments. Federer wins this department by a landslide no matter who wins in the final.

 

[dh003i]

Its all about career accomplishments. Federer wins this department by a landslide no matter who wins in the final.

I do think Djokovic can desperately push for 14 or even 15, although I think 17 or 18 might be too much to ask.

Lets see what adjustments he makes after the 30-year mark, and if Nadal makes adjustments to his game as Federer did (although not the same, he'll never play that way, but he needs to be more aggressive).

 

[kramer woodie]

Both Federer and Djokovic claim that they play now better than ever. These claims are fully substantiated by their performance at USO2015 so far. Thus, this is the best version of Djokovic against the best version of Federer. Are we ready to accept that the one who wins tomorrow is a better player? I am. I prefer Djokovic, but if Federer wins tomorrow, I will happily say "Federer is a better player than Djokovic".

Old saying, "even the very best can be beaten on a given day". Also, you could say even the worst has a chance to win on a given day.

Aloha

 

[jm1980]

Even if Djokovic wins tomorrow he will earn no respect from Fed fans.

As per usual, they'll claim (and are already claiming) it's Peakest of Peaks Djokovic vs. Near-retirement Ancient Federer.

You cannot win against Fed fans.

 

[The_18th_Slam]

As per usual, they'll claim (and are already claiming) it's Peakest of Peaks Djokovic vs. Near-retirement Ancient Federer.

Answer two questions for me:
1. Is this or is this not one of Djokovic's 2 best years? Maybe even the best?
2. Is 34 past the retirement age of most professional Tennis players or not?

 

[The_18th_Slam]

This thread has the potential to be the next Real Slam thread.

 

[jm1980]

Answer two questions for me:
1. Is this or is this not one of Djokovic's 2 best years? Maybe even the best?
2. Is 34 past the retirement age of most professional Tennis players or not?

Did beating a 35-year-old Agassi for his USO title in 2005 diminish Fed's accomplishment in any way?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Even if Djokovic wins tomorrow he will earn no respect from Fed fans.

As per usual, they'll claim (and are already claiming) it's Peakest of Peaks Djokovic vs. Near-retirement Ancient Federer.

You cannot win against Fed fans.

And enlighten me how is that different from what Nole fans used to do before he began to consistently beat ******* at the slams? When Fed won at AO 07 & USO 07, Nole was "too young" and "still learning". When Fed beat him at Wimb in 2012, it was down to the roof and unfortunately Fed himself was graceful enough to concede the roof closing helped him. I wish he had taken cognisance of Nole fans and their antics and not done so. You guys aren't short on excuses so don't play that card. A win is a win and Fed has more slams than Nole, period. You can't go on slicing and dicing it to suit your viewpoint.

 

[The_18th_Slam]

Did beating a 34-year-old Agassi for his USO title in 2005 diminish Fed's accomplishment in any way?

No, but I don't see any Federer fan gloating about Federer beating a near-retiree like Agassi.

And you still haven't answered my questions.

 

[uscwang]

If Djokovic wins tomorrow, I will accept that 28-year-old Djokovic is a better USO player than 34-year-old Federer.

And Pennetta is relatively speaking a better player than Fed at USO in the 33+ group.

 

[The_18th_Slam]

And Pennetta is relatively speaking a better player than Fed at USO in the 33+ group.

Relative to the WTA? Sure.

By the same token, I am a better Tennis player than Novak Djokovic, relatively speaking, when I'm playing against 4-year-olds.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Even if Djokovic wins tomorrow he will earn no respect from Fed fans.

As per usual, they'll claim (and are already claiming) it's Peakest of Peaks Djokovic vs. Near-retirement Ancient Federer.

You cannot win against Fed fans.

Ok, let's all making sweeping generalizations. There are NO Federer fans that have any respect for Djokovic. Let's not confuse the fringe elements with all Federer fans.

Also, are you implying that Federer at 34 is still in his prime/peak?

 

[kramer woodie]

Even if Djokovic wins tomorrow he will earn no respect from Fed fans.

As per usual, they'll claim (and are already claiming) it's Peakest of Peaks Djokovic vs. Near-retirement Ancient Federer.

You cannot win against Fed fans.

Why would an armchair quarterback Djokovic fan living vicariously through the efforts of someone they can not emulate be so opinionated?
The answer is beyond my understanding. As if ONE match is going to justify there need to be right. Long after Federer and Djokovic are dead
and gone, idiots will still argue who was best. Federer makes Djokovic a better player, Djokovic makes Federer a better player. Without each
other and the way Nadal is playing it is tennis that is the loser. You can only have great tennis if you only have great players competing.

Aloha

 

[ABCD]

When he is making 70 million dollars every year in endorsements, he is not going to say his level is lower. If he says he is at a lower level , but still keeps #2 ranking is bad advertisement for ATP and Tennis

I am surprised with your assertion that Federer is about money. I am sure that he does it for the love

Ok, let's all making sweeping generalizations. There are NO Federer fans that have any respect for Djokovic. Let's not confuse the fringe elements with all Federer fans.
Also, are you implying that Federer at 34 is still in his prime/peak?

The main point is that Federer himself is not just implying that, he is clearly and unequivocally stating it. For some people Federer's assessment of his own game is not enough. It is suggested that Federer has either 1) issues with his cognitive functions or 2) has financial interest to deliberately lie. Thus, for some, it is better that their "idol" is either 1)mentally challenged or 2) crocked businessman than to, at least, seriously consider what the man said about his game. For those, Federer is just a psychological prosthesis used to compensate issues in their "real life" lives.

 

[jhhachamp]

Federer is playing great, but this is not the best version of Federer. I'm glad to see from the poll results that everyone else realizes how mistaken the OP is.

 

[uscwang]

Relative to the WTA? Sure.

By the same token, I am a better Tennis player than Novak Djokovic, relatively speaking, when I'm playing against 4-year-olds.

I'm not surprised that you are playing with 4-year-olds. Congrats.

 

[The_18th_Slam]

I'm not surprised that you are playing with the 4-year-olds. Congrats.

Thanks. Not much unlike Djokovic, who is playing a 34-year-old father of 4. And losing

 

[rjms]

Ok, let's all making sweeping generalizations. There are NO Federer fans that have any respect for Djokovic. Let's not confuse the fringe elements with all Federer fans.

Also, are you implying that Federer at 34 is still in his prime/peak?

i am a fed fan but dont hate djoker (because he beats sheet out of nadal these days)

 

[Sentinel]

Both Federer and Djokovic claim that they play now better than ever

So the Federer who used to beat Djokovic is not as good as this one who can't get a single slam win against him.

Federer at 34 is better than he was in his mid-twenties ?????? LOL, are you serious.

No wonder you have not gone past the first 4 alphabets hehe, j/k.

 

[The_18th_Slam]

Federer at 34 is better than he was in his mid-twenties ?????? LOL, are you serious.

No wonder you have not gone past the first 4 alphabets hehe, j/k.

 

[beast of mallorca]

Both Federer and Djokovic claim that they play now better than ever. These claims are fully substantiated by their performance at USO2015 so far. Thus, this is the best version of Djokovic against the best version of Federer. Are we ready to accept that the one who wins tomorrow is a better player? I am. I prefer Djokovic, but if Federer wins tomorrow, I will happily say "Federer is a better player than Djokovic".

On that day ? Yes, why not

 

[ABCD]

So the Federer who used to beat Djokovic is not as good as this one who can't get a single slam win against him.
Federer at 34 is better than he was in his mid-twenties ?????? LOL, are you serious.
No wonder you have not gone past the first 4 alphabets hehe, j/k.

That "the Federer who used to beat Djokovic is not as good as this one who can't get a single slam win against him" is not my statement, it is Federer's statement. Maybe he didn't past first 4 alphabets (according to Zagor he didn't know who is Freud), but I don't think that the requires more alphabets to assess his own game.

 

[The_18th_Slam]

Maybe he didn't past first 4 alphabets (according to Zagor he didn't know who is Freud), but I don't think that the requires more alphabets to assess his own game.

Lol, the irony.

 

[zagor]

Did beating a 35-year-old Agassi for his USO title in 2005 diminish Fed's accomplishment in any way?

Nope, you beat who's in front of you (the guy who's better than anyone else on the other side of the draw). That said, you'll never see me claiming 2005 Agassi is better than 1995 Agassi (or 1999 for that matter). You ask me, Fed would have had a tougher time with Agassi at USO if they were the same age/generation than Sampras had.

Fed beat Agassi in straights in 2005 on AO's rebound ace but peak for peak I'd give it 50-50 or even favour Dre on that surface (probably leaning to that actually, in my mind when he was focused, Agassi's game was tailor made for that surface).

 

[The_18th_Slam]

Nope, you beat who's in front of you (the guy who's better than anyone else on the other side of the draw). That said, you'll never see me claiming 2005 Agassi is better than 1995 Agassi (or 1999 for that matter). You ask me, Fed would have had a tougher time with Agassi at USO if they were the same age/generation than Sampras had.

Fed beat Agassi in straights in 2005 on AO's rebound ace but peak for peak I'd give it 50-50 or even favour Dre on that surface.

I think 1995 Agassi would have beaten Federer on that windy day at the 2004 US Open, given the way an old Agassi pushed prime Federer. It's just ridiculous to claim Federer is playing as well as ever at 34, just to prop up Djokovic, which a few insecure Djokovic fans often like to do.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

Great. Another "consensus" thread.

Some wise words for OP amd people who create threads that begin "can we all agree..." or "can we al ll come to a consensus...", or "are we ready to accept...":

“Not everyone thinks the way you think, knows the things you know, believes the things you believe, nor acts the way you would act. Remember this and you will go a long way in getting along with people.” -Arthur Forman

 

[ABCD]

It's just ridiculous to claim Federer is playing as well as ever at 34, just to prop up Djokovic, which a few insecure Djokovic fans often like to do.

You are forgetting that this is Federer's claim. I am not claiming anything. I just support the notion that Federer knows his game better than anybody else. Do you belong in category of those his "fans" who think that he is 1) mentally challenged or 2) crooked businessman?

 

[zagor]

I think 1995 Agassi would have beaten Federer on that windy day at the 2004 US Open, given the way an old Agassi pushed prime Federer. It's just ridiculous to claim Federer is playing as well as ever at 34, just to prop up Djokovic, which a few insecure Djokovic fans often like to do.

I agree, Fed is a good wind player but Agassi is a great one. On the whole Dre is one of the best ever when it comes to not necessarily adapting but his base game working on every surface, every playing style and in every condition imaginable, the guy was a special player.