Backhand slices. Yours sucks.

[Rickson]

Not only do I not agree that the eastern backhand grip promotes hitches, I believe that it's a great grip for slices as well as topspin backhands.

 

[Kana Himezaki]

You didn't read. This is not about topspin. I also said that it can easily be used for slice backhands. But as said in the original post, it's not the best grip for learning the swing path. More extreme grips naturally come with more brushing around, and people get caught up in the spin they see and eventually forget about driving through altogether.

 

[TwistServe]

The eastern backhand does NOT promote flatness, period. That has definitely been proven. If it did promote flatness, would you use it on serves for spin? People move their grips up from continental on different levels for more extreme grips, which mean more spin and raised contact zones. EB is no exception.

Hush kana! You don't know jack about what you're talking about. People in the thread have said it.. I'm saynig it..

The serve is a different mechanism. You're saying because the eastern backhand grip is used as a spin serve, it promotes spin on the slice now? So if you did that on your forehand it promotes spin as well?

Eastern backhand on the slice, if anything, promotes a flatter ball when you try to slice because the racquet is more closed then if you were using continental. When you want spin, you open up the racquet head (move it to continental or a mild forehand).. Simple laws of physics! C'mon!!!! Now of course you can still get a great amount of bite using eastern grip but it does not promote spin.

Quite embarassing yourself.

 

[Kana Himezaki]

TwistServe, or "TS" as you prefer, hush yourself. The eastern backhand, no question, promotes more spin in general. It also promotes less drive.

It would not work on your forehand. Because when used there...it's not an extreme grip. You'd have to move up to an eastern forehand grip. More spin than your continental, right?

Come on? Please, the eastern backhand produces a ball much less "flat".

 

[Rickson]

You didn't read. This is not about topspin. I also said that it can easily be used for slice backhands. But as said in the original post, it's not the best grip for learning the swing path. More extreme grips naturally come with more brushing around, and people get caught up in the spin they see and eventually forget about driving through altogether.

Kana, please. What works for some people may not work for others. So you like the continental slice backhand? Well, I like the eastern. So what? Some people do it your way and some people do it my way, but that doesn't mean you're right about the eastern backhand grip being a bad grip to learn slices with. Eastern backhand works just fine and until it's proven that it's the wrong grip for slices, I'll keep doing it.

 

[Kana Himezaki]

Once again, you miss. Yes, some grips are more comfortable. But some grips are better for learning the right swing path. If you got over it with yours, that's fine. Unfortunately, most people don't.

So, how many times have I stated it's not a "wrong" grip? How many other times have I stated it promotes more brushing than driving? You can get over that. If it's comfortable that's fine.

And by the way, I was going to edit the last post, but TwistServe, it's awfully hard to tell someone they're embarassing themselves when you can't back up what you're saying without someone else, and try to add in random facts to appear as a knowledgeable poster.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

You didn't read. This is not about topspin. I also said that it can easily be used for slice backhands. But as said in the original post, it's not the best grip for learning the swing path.

No, no, no. Keep the swing path seperate from the grip! The eastern backhand grip does not promote hitches in a slice! There is no promotion!!!!

In fact, based on your "fencing" going "straight" through the ball, the Eastern backhand grip would definetly support that swing pattern! No hitches or twitches!

I see plenty of people with "hitches" in their swing and use the continental grip!! It is the swing path, it is not the grip. Each of those grips are viable grips for the slice shot.

More extreme grips naturally come with more brushing around, and people get caught up in the spin they see and eventually forget about driving through altogether.

Kana, I am really disappointed. This is becoming a nonsense discussion. More and more comments about "brushing" around, "people getting caught up in the spin", and "forgetting to drive through" and linking this to the Eastern backhand grip is simply a bunch of nonsense and far fetched.

When will you wake up and see the Continental grip contributes to your "so called" plagues as well and probably even more so! It is not the grip! Players can choose between the popular Continental grip or the Eastern backhand grip or land somewhere in inbetween.

 

[TwistServe]

TwistServe, or "TS" as you prefer, hush yourself. The eastern backhand, no question, promotes more spin in general. It also promotes less drive.

It would not work on your forehand. Because when used there...it's not an extreme grip. You'd have to move up to an eastern forehand grip. More spin than your continental, right?

Come on? Please, the eastern backhand produces a ball much less "flat".

Wow kana.. you're either really dumb or just ignorant.. lets review what each grip does..

Continetnal is a neutral grip such that you hit backhands and forehands at the same angle. When you close the racquet more on the backhand side (clockwise rotation of the grip) you make it easier to produce topspin, and less easier to produce underspin or slice.. When you open the racquet more, you give the ball more underspin and less topspin. Now if you say eastern grip give more underspin that continental grip, then what happens when you use an extreme eastern (western) backhand grip? Please just think about this for a second.. or pick up a racquet and test it out yourself.

The same thing applies to the forehand side.. You close out the racqut for more topspin and open up the racquet for more underspin.. only you have to rotate the grip the opposite direction! That means from a continental grip you rotate counterclockwise to close the racquet.

 

[Kana Himezaki]

Bill, whatever. I see no point in continuing this argument, and you can check for yourself on whatever later. I'm not about to give up my position, and I'm sure you aren't either.

With TwistServe, however, there is a point.

Take your racquet, held in a continental grip, to the side. Hold it in the air straight up and down in that continental grip. Then, turn the racquet into an eastern backhand grip. The racquet is slightly slanted. Move into a strong eastern/western grip. It slants more. Move into the extreme backhand grip like a semiwestern forehand. It slants more.

Then, move to the forehand side, in a continental. Turn to eastern. It slants forward a bit. Turn it to Semiwestern. It slants more. Turn to western. It slants more.

More extreme grips, defined as how slanted the racquet is, enable more spin, whether on the backhand or forehand side.

You think the ball is flatter on slices? Don't kid me. I'm sure even BB, where it's already been shown I disagree with on this issue, can point this out here.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

The eastern backhand...promotes less drive.

BING BING BING! NOT TRUE!

Come on? Please, the eastern backhand produces a ball much less "flat".

BING BING BING! NOT TRUE! Racquet face is FLATTER to the ball and with a straighter swing path it produces....drum roll please....A FLATTER BALL!!!!!!!

You have officially lost your credibility with me about what you know about the slice. I highly doubt you even hit a slice regularly. Otherwise, I wouldnt have heard half this stuff.

 

[Becky]

Um, Kana? I agreed with almost all of the article, even against some posters, but you've got caught up in this. While your original posts/articles are wonderful, these after/post/whatever-arguments seem to bring out the worst in you.

As proven, you are simply wrong at this point.

 

[TwistServe]

BING BING BING! NOT TRUE! Racquet face is FLATTER to the ball and with a straighter swing path it produces....drum roll please....A FLATTER BALL!!!!!!!

Wow really BB!! Someone sure thinks the eastern grip promotes more underspin.. HAHAH how can this be.. does the laws of physics lie??? it can.. no no it cant lie

 

[Return_Ace]

uhhhh........can you define a 'flat' slice?
and a 'flatter' racket face for me please?
i'm getting confused lol

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Bill, whatever. I see no point in continuing this argument, and you can check for yourself on whatever later. I'm not about to give up my position, and I'm sure you aren't either.

Well you certainly dont have to. But I would recommend it. I dont need to check something later on or "whatever". The slice is something I teach and use the slice in my own game for a long long time. The slice backhand is a great stroke.

I dont think you need to give up on your position. But you have definetly lost ground with me. You had the makings of a great article the next thing you need to be is - teachable.

 

[Kana Himezaki]

Whatever. Bill, I can actually say a lot for my slice. It's actually pretty stupid to start screaming "Bing, bing, bing", when I'm trying to have a purely tennis-related discussion. It seems anybody against you brings out the similar supposed "ugly" side I display.

It also seems like you suddenly decide to discredit all knowledge, but only after I disagree with you and push it on what a grip does. Another...fault.

Seeing as I've been so responsibly discredited by such able posters ready to correct everything, I'm pretty sure nobody would complain if I took another leave. Given I'm moving and am starting to pack, I wouldn't be able to come on anyway for another month.

I can be "teachable". I am not about to be taught when someone takes a grip argument and blows it up entirely. I don't think about you, or how any specific poster will react when I type my posts.

I'll probably look back tonight and regret showing an "ugly" side, or whatever you want to call it. I don't particularly care at the moment.

 

[TwistServe]

You think the ball is flatter on slices? Don't kid me. I'm sure even BB, where it's already been shown I disagree with on this issue, can point this out here.

More extreme grips, defined as how slanted the racquet is, enable more spin, whether on the backhand or forehand side.

No BB already said you're wrong! And that the eastern bk grip produces more flatter balls..

How can u make a claim that the more extreme grips you go the more underspin you gets.. the extreme grips are there to produce topspin.. how can it do both topspin and underspin!??

 

[supersmash]

Take it easy, guys. Maybe THIS is why she left in the first place.

 

[Becky]

Wow really BB!! Someone sure thinks the eastern grip promotes more underspin.. HAHAH how can this be.. does the laws of physics lie??? it can.. no no it cant lie

I agree with you on your points, but it's pretty strange to "laugh" so hard because someone said a grip does something different.

It seems like everyone is intent on making the end of this argument as ugly as possible. God, do it with grace, at least. Otherwise you're opening yourself up to more attacks as well. In Kana's hostile (or supposedly and seemingly unintentional) arguments, everybody has taken it upon themselves to become just as.

Kana, you're wrong. BB, I thought you sounded fine, professional, and correct up until near the end. :/

 

[Return_Ace]

awwww.............kana don't go, i liked ur post this later argument thing just kinda confuses me though.........flat racket face compared to the ball? =/...................flat slice?

 

[TwistServe]

I agree with you on your points, but it's pretty strange to "laugh" so hard because someone said a grip does something different.

It seems like everyone is intent on making the end of this argument as ugly as possible. God, do it with grace, at least. Otherwise you're opening yourself up to more attacks as well. In Kana's hostile (or supposedly and seemingly unintentional) arguments, everybody has taken it upon themselves to become just as.

Kana, you're wrong. BB, I thought you sounded fine, professional, and correct up until near the end. :/

Because I've been through arguments with kana so many times.. she never budges its funny.. i think she actually thinks shes right.. being self taught and all she must have a great perspective on the game.. otherwise she wouldnt be able to make statements just because from her personal experience it didnt work out..

The laws of physics do not lie.

 

[Ash Doyle]

These arguments are becoming common place around here. Lesser knowledgable people say one thing, and then get all bent out of shape when they are corrected by others who are far more knowledgable. All part of being a teenager I guess.

 

[Return_Ace]

the laws of physics say you can walk through walls, has anyone ever done it? thats a no btw

 

[TwistServe]

And by the way, I was going to edit the last post, but TwistServe, it's awfully hard to tell someone they're embarassing themselves when you can't back up what you're saying without someone else, and try to add in random facts to appear as a knowledgeable poster.

Sure you and meat can keep saying this, that i parrot information or whatever.. but fact is I have a vast greater understanding on tennis, mechanics, and the game then you.. you take your personal experience, what works for you and what doesnt work for you, and make that seem like its the rules.. You take what your coaches teach you as 100% fact and parrot that informatino on the board.. so what... oh you can't see the base knuckle therefore you cant determine what grip it is.. why not look at the bigger picture.. understand the physics of what produces a slice and bite on the ball: the open racquethead with a high to low swing... if you looked at the bigger picture you would have been able to figure out what grip a player has without seeing the knuckle placement..

 

[AngeloDS]

If you ever see some clips of Goolagong's Slice BH, you'll see poetry in motion. I know what you mean about beauty....

On my own Slice BH drive, my shoulder turn is so extreme I almost have my back to my target ... then (my playing partners tell me) my follow through is spread-eagled. (They say I look like I'm "playing airplane" on my follow through. Hopefully, they are being honest when the tell me "No. It doesn't help us to know a Drive Slice is coming." Apparently they cannot decipher direction or depth ... until it's too late. ...At least, that's what they *tell me.*)

But I'm not sure you and I spread-eagle at the same parts of our strokes...?

- KK

Do you have a video or does anyoen have a video of Goolagong's slice BH?

Hmmm, I'll take video of my driving slice and my tricky slice. I don't know what to call it. I add a lot of spin where when it hits the ground it takes a 90 degree turn to the left or right dependig on where I spin it. And my driving slice which skids and stays low. My other one where I just add reverse spin to the spin that's on the ball to make it drop dead instead of going left or right.


There's another slice. I remember I discovered this by accident, in my previous post. I talked about going all the way when I spread eagle, and it looks beautiful. Though, this other one I had to "defensively" do it because I was against a big forehand hitting opponent. Didn't have time to do it all. I did it by accident and learned what I did because I was watching my racquet.

Shorted my stroke so it's about a 1" stroke, swept \ at that angle on the ball. And it causes it to "loft" back but with a tremendous amount of just deadening power. It hit the ground and just stopped and barely bounced up. It only worked when I was coming to the net. Anywhere else, it wasn't good.


Maybe Kana doesn't know technical stuff? I don't know what grip I hold. I've been told extreme western, semi-western and other stuff. I don't even know the name of my one-handed backhand grip. I'll occasionally put in (technical?) All my knuckles are on level 1. That's as much as I know when it comes to technical stuff.

Like my coach told me the semi-open stance is the "power stance." Because someone in the 90s or something like a girl was loading her shots and had this stance and all this other technical stuff.

 

[Becky]

Because I've been through arguments with kana so many times.. she never budges its funny.. i think she actually thinks shes right.. being self taught and all she must have a great perspective on the game.. otherwise she wouldnt be able to make statements just because from her personal experience it didnt work out..

The laws of physics do not lie.

Well, who are you to say? You may have had more practice and personal coaching, but being self taught and having so many complex viewpoints counts for something. Age isn't everything.

She's really, really stubborn. But honestly, while I think she was wrong in a few threads, I think you were as well. Everybody seems to be placing complete blame and pressure all on her. Then everything escalates.

I mean, if you're right, it's much, much better to point it out, say it nicely/gracefully even if just for image, and leave.


edit- TwistServe, as of the last post, you should probably just be quiet. As I said, it seems you're just searching for anything, anything at all to incriminate Kana. You're right. Leave. What's the point of rubbing it in so much, you're not getting anything at all from it.

Refer to Ash Doyle's post. You're part of the people that gent all bent out of shape, even when you're right. Drop it.

 

[Return_Ace]

uhhh...........what she said, she got across what i was trying to say............using more words albeit but i'm sure you understand her better.
and being self-taught makes you work out problems on your own, it makes you think.

 

[TwistServe]

uhhh...........what she said, she got across what i was trying to say............using more words albeit but i'm sure you understand her better.
and being self-taught makes you work out problems on your own, it makes you think.

Nothing wrong with being self taugh.. Much of the "discovery" and "breakthroughs" ive had is from me just practicing alone and suddenly finding out the secret to something.. but i don't claim thats the only way to do things.. i'm very open to lots of things in tennis.

 

[Becky]

I just checked the tennisplayer.net slice articles again, and pretty much everything actually supported Kana, especially the one in the "Classic Lessons" section. I didn't see any problems until the arguments later.

And TwistServe, NOBODY, including Kana, has ever said being selftaught is the only way to learn things.

 

[nViATi]

edit- TwistServe, as of the last post, you should probably just be quiet. As I said, it seems you're just searching for anything, anything at all to incriminate Kana. You're right. Leave. What's the point of rubbing it in so much, you're not getting anything at all from it.

yep. twistserve IS the reason she left. twistserve makes degrading comments everytime he corrects someone.

 

[ohplease]

People hit topspin off the forehand with continentals to full westerns to everything in between. The clay courters pull off sliced drop shots with full on westerns all the time. THE WORLD IS NOT GOING TO END IF YOU HIT YOUR SLICE BACKHAND WITH ONE GRIP OVER THE OTHER.

As for Bill, this is just how he operates. Just so we all remind ourselves:

I no longer want to destroy people with personal attacks. I saw the ugliness of the thread and it goes nowhere and is so meaningless that it is something I no longer want to participate in. I think it is useless, highly unprofessional, and I apoligize to you for any rude and personal remarks I made to you. I want to change and I am going to. It is time for me to grow-up in this area as I am realizing I might be back out on the courts again teaching and want people to believe I have an honest character and try hard ot help someone.

There is already much hate and anger in this world that I no longer want to be a part of it. I am going back to church and realizing the stupid things I did in the past and think it is trash. It is not good for me nor my family and I want to teach my children to be good people. But I have to set the example in all that I do.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[TwistServe]

yep. twistserve IS the reason she left. twistserve makes degrading comments everytime he corrects someone.

Not true.. only to kana

 

[Kaptain Karl]

ohplease - Your post #80 is a pathetic example of an attempted troll. You can be much better than that....

BB's posts on this thread have been right on ... and not at all "personal attacks." (Your post on the other hand....)

- KK

 

[Noelle]

I suppose this is the thing that most people had problems with in the article.

Kana, you are not "wrong" in posting this article. What I didnt care for was the slight "racial" comments and your opening statements which made the article "trashy". You had good information in there but you made it sound liike it was written law. That is where I had the problems. I know others have posted their concerns and you should listen to that.

Like I said before, I admire your attempt and some of the information was very good. The article had a lot of holes in it.

Valid criticism. No one can claim to be perfect in their tennis knowledge. However, I don't think this thread should have gone the route of personal attacks.

I'm not pointing fingers. This is just my two pesos.

 

[Rickson]

Not true.. only to kana

You are so foul! Oh well, that's my boy, TwistServe.

 

[TwistServe]

You are so foul! Oh well, that's my boy, TwistServe.

You are right. I am a foul... I missed kana's post so much that when she finally posted again, I jumped the gun and got personal very fast.. oh the memories ;(

 

[nViATi]

You are right. I am a foul... I missed kana's post so much that when she finally posted again, I jumped the gun and got personal very fast.. oh the memories ;(

pathetic
2 wrongs make a right? :twisted:

 

[Phil]

Twist Serve - Granted, after admittedly having just three years of tennis playing experience, Kana's "articles" sometimes lack that necessary expereience factor, I'm not sure this is the reason you refuse to leave her alone. You aren't exactly a font of tennis knowledge yourself-but you're great at chiming in where BB diplomatically corrects Kana's misinformation (and though I'm not exactly BB's buddy, it's clear to me that he WAS trying to be diplomatic and helpful, as much as he could until he lost patience). Are you stalking her? Really, what is your agenda here? Is it because, failing to come up with anything negative to say about Federer, having been proved so wrong on everything you ever wrote about him, you need a "subsititute" demon to bait? I mean, WTF is it with you, spanky?

 

[TwistServe]

Twist Serve - Granted, after admittedly having just three years of tennis playing experience, Kana's "articles" sometimes lack that necessary expereience factor, I'm not sure this is the reason you refuse to leave her alone. You aren't exactly a font of tennis knowledge yourself-but you're great at chiming in where BB diplomatically corrects Kana's misinformation (and though I'm not exactly BB's buddy, it's clear to me that he WAS trying to be diplomatic and helpful, as much as he could until he lost patience). Are you stalking her? Really, what is your agenda here? Is it because, failing to come up with anything negative to say about Federer, having been proved so wrong on everything you ever wrote about him, you need a "subsititute" demon to bait? I mean, WTF is it with you, spanky?

Actually Phil, I argue with anything that lacks the "necessary expereience(sic) factor".. you've probably seen me argue with PhilD, Meat, and others.. Kana comes up with inconsistent statements and incorrect tips too often and as a result it may seem like I dish out too much to her.. Review my other debates.. i've argued with many other posters when I feel they need to be corrected.. other people dont make it personal, and so i dont .. when it gets ugly it gets ugly..

 

[Phil]

Actually Phil, I argue with anything that lacks the "necessary expereience(sic) factor".. you've probably seen me argue with PhilD, Meat, and others.. Kana comes up with inconsistent statements and incorrect tips too often and as a result it may seem like I dish out too much to her.. Review my other debates.. i've argued with many other posters when I feel they need to be corrected.. other people dont make it personal, and so i dont .. when it gets ugly it gets ugly..

Okay, if you say so. And yes, I've "seen (sic)" you argue with Meat, etc.... But from my "limited" perspective, it looks like you've made this one personal-it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

Everyone makes mistakes, even YOU. So, why not cut some people a little slack-even I do THAT. Otherwise, I think, you come off as looking like a petty, nitpicking little freak. You wouldn't people to think that of you and tarnish your sterling reputation, now would you?

 

[TwistServe]

So, why not cut some people a little slack-even I do THAT.

I was wondering why you were cutting me some slack before.. guessed you were just a nice guy..

 

[Phil]

I was wondering why you were cutting me some slack before.. guessed you were just a nice guy..

Of course I cut you some slack-I couldn't possibly have the time or motivation to dog such a prodigious drivel spewer as yourself everytime you've posted (a lot) even if it's totally justified. Besides, so many other denizens of this Board have slapped you silly on so many threads-doing a better job than I probably could-that I haven't found much reason to pick up the ball except on a few occasions. But you seem to hold your own, for better or worse. Lucky for me and you that you're such a popular guy.

 

[mucat]

kana, I read most of your posts and they are mostly correct. But this time, you have to listen to BB. Eastern BH does NOT produce more spin than continental BH grip in general. If you try to swing around with both grips and you will know the answer. Eastern BH only produce more spin on serve compare to continental. I would know because I used to hit with continental slice exclusively on my BH but now I change to eastern bh for slice, flat and topspin.

 

[akj27]

at this point, it's obvious that becky is kana, just read her posts in this thread, especially the one when she talks about reading tennisplayers.net and about how kana is right LOL.

 

[Becky]

I know I said I was leaving in the other thread, and plan on doing the same thing.

But really, I still don't understand. Because I'm a similar age, and agreed with some of the same information, I'm incriminated. Everyone in this thread agreed with most of the information. BB did. Even TwistServe is. The point is, some of the last things she said were wrong, which I agreed on.

What's the problem?

 

[TwistServe]

kana, I read most of your posts and they are mostly correct. But this time, you have to listen to BB. Eastern BH does NOT produce more spin than continental BH grip in general. If you try to swing around with both grips and you will know the answer. Eastern BH only produce more spin on serve compare to continental. I would know because I used to hit with continental slice exclusively on my BH but now I change to eastern bh for slice, flat and topspin.

Hey mucat.. what you mean listen to BB? The topic about eastern vs backhand and the spin production is between me and kana! heheh

 

[TwistServe]

But you seem to hold your own, for better or worse. Lucky for me and you that you're such a popular guy.

Thank you for your kind words

 

[Deckard]

My backhand slice has always been my strongest stroke, which is more than can be said for my backhand topspin.....
The slice has always felt like a more 'natural' shot then the topspin.

 

[mucat]

at this point, it's obvious that becky is kana, just read her posts in this thread, especially the one when she talks about reading tennisplayers.net and about how kana is right LOL.

akj27, I was thinking exactly the same while I was reading thru the post. And the way kana posting on this thread is more aggressive than her old self, IMO of course. I don't know what's going on here, very strange things happening.

TS, I thought you have a poll about this (becky=kana) but I couldn't found it, or was I drunk. Where is the thread?

 

[TwistServe]

I know I said I was leaving in the other thread, and plan on doing the same thing.

But really, I still don't understand. Because I'm a similar age, and agreed with some of the same information, I'm incriminated. Everyone in this thread agreed with most of the information. BB did. Even TwistServe is. The point is, some of the last things she said were wrong, which I agreed on.

What's the problem?

I know i'm going to get some hate or flames for this but...

To be 100% honest I'm not ceratin if meat is a real person... He has suddenly disappeared and sometimes shows up now and then ... same as kana... when Rickson posted the poll/thread about me, guess who were among the first few to vote? and within a minute of each other (vote and relog, vote)... Kana and meat... hmm and for some insane reason meat started hating me way back after the first few kana disuptes.. they both talk about the reverse forehand so much.. they supposily played together before and so forth.. anyway not a concipracy theory or anything.. its just a thought.

 

[slice bh compliment]

So I was just happily reading this thread.
First I thought, this is the most contemporary tennis 'instructional' piece I've ever read. Not urbane, but definitely urban. At times, suburban. Usually, coaches try to be really safe, diplomatic and rated G.
Then I thought, this writer is funny, but a little condescending. Plus, she takes a few liberties with the shot itself. But that is cool. No video. So futile. But she's clearly enjoying writing something, and people will enjoy reading it, enjoy trying it. They will end up consulting their actual coaches for the dubious parts. Without video and a trusted teacher, it can't hold a candle to tennisplayer.net or tennisONE.
Then I thought, 'Wait a minute. This whippersnapper is getting a slew of Slice Backhand compliments!' Then I remembered my own screen name. Hmmm.
Then some really passionate coaches stepped in. I was impressed with their knowledge, but...then I got sleepy. Then a war of words broke out.

It's amazing how defensive people get about their OPINIONS on an internet forum. One day, just once, we shoud all be REQUIRED to post with our real names and OUR actual photos as avatars. Better yet, high speed video footage of our slice BH's. That would be a quiet day at the TW! For, ahem, security reasons. Hhhhrrright.

Well, I'll close with a line from a beer ad featuring Goran Ivanisevic, "Less bitterness, more cheerfullness!"
G'night, all.