Best ROS in the game? Djoko, Murray or someone else?

[Chanwan]

Me and RF-18 are debating the merits of Djoko and Murray's return in another thread (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=9418451&posted=1#post9418451). I thought I would ask the question to the general floor.

Note: I'm not talking about the return game, but ROS as a singular shot (including how effective it is to set up the next shot).

Career wise, they're neck and neck statswise (but that's return game in general, pure ROS stats don't exist).
Since 2011, Djoko's marginally ahead in most categories (for stats, see p. 2-3 on the thread linked to above).

Case for Djoko: Marginally better return stats since 2011, a number of ATG's, Agassi included, has said he's the best ever.

Case for Murray: Djoko's got the better forehand, the better defense and movement, the better mentality and a comparable backhand - yet they are as good as neck and neck statswise. How's that?

My opinion? Murray's clearly ahead when it comes to the return of the biggest, but Djoko's marginally ahead, when it comes to 2nd serves - perhaps even 'normal' first serves? Not sure.

They're very close imo and obviously the best of the best.

Also, where do other great returners such as Ferrer especially and Nishikori secondary fit into this?

The floor is yours.

 

[Golden]

Santiago Giraldo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBvesji9yOs

 

[NatF]

Their average level in terms of returns in a match are about the same. Djokovic punishes second serves more and Murray is better at return the big bombs. I tend to feel Djokovic has an extra gear on the return when he's in the zone that puts him above Murray though. When Novak is in the flow he hits crazy angles and has just crazy length on the returns.

Ferrer and Nishikori at their best are a little below those two IMO.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Their average level in terms of returns in a match are about the same. Djokovic punishes second serves more and Murray is better at return the big bombs. I tend to feel Djokovic has an extra gear on the return when he's in the zone that puts him above Murray though. When Novak is in the flow he hits crazy angles and has just crazy length on the returns.

Ferrer and Nishikori at their best are a little below those two IMO.

Saved me the time writing the post myself. :smile:

 

[zep]

I think Federer does not get enough credit for his ROS on grass. His block return of the big servers may not be as effective on other surfaces but on grass it is a great shot as it stays quite low and allows him to return a lot of serves that otherwise look unreturnable.

 

[Fedeonic]

I think Federer does not get enough credit for his ROS on grass. His block return of the big servers may not be as effective on other surfaces but on grass it is a great shot as it stays quite low and allows him to return a lot of serves that otherwise look unreturnable.

That's true, but now, his return has all but disappeared, that's the reason he lost Wimbledon's Final and some other finals (Toronto, Roma), and in the most recent loss, to Wawrinka in RG.

Back to OP, Djokovic by a mile.

 

[Down_the_line]

Djokovic has the best offensive ROS, Murray is the best at getting serves in play, period.

 

[Chanwan]

Cheers all, keep the thoughts and arguments flowing. I'll respond more in depth, once there are more thread comments.

In other words, the floor is still yours.

 

[Gary Duane]

The problem is always the same, trying to separate ROS from the return game.

I personal think it is an exercise in futility unless you are tracking return winners or returns that are unplayable.

I think Ferrer has to be considered, and we all forget how comparatively weak his serve is. He's #30 in the world right now for winning % of service games.

 

[Cenarius]

Murray.He never lost to Karlovic or Isner.

 

[Mainad]

Murray.He never lost to Karlovic or Isner.

The only one of the current traditional big servers Murray has ever lost to is Raonic for some reason.

 

[MonkeyBoy]

The only one of the current traditional big servers Murray has ever lost to is Raonic for some reason.

Yeah, that h2h is a bit of an anomaly as Raonic is the kind of player Murray usually routines.

I hate to bring up injuries, but in 2/3 of Raonic's wins Murray was not the best of health.

 

[Chanwan]

The only one of the current traditional big servers Murray has ever lost to is Raonic for some reason.

what's your verdict on the question, Mainad?

 

[Bryan Swartz]

Regarding Ferrer, the numbers strongly hint, though that's all they can do, that he is the better returner with Nishikori a hair better once you get into a rally.

I also think the comments made regarding Djokovic/Murray are spot on. It really depends on the matchup. Murray gets more in play, while Djokovic eviscerates second serve chances like no other.

I go with the underdog here. I say 5-9 David Ferrer, though a player with a limited wingspan shouldn't be able to, is the best here. He's very good in a rally though not as good as Djokovic or Murray, yet he's always right there up with them if not better in terms of return success. It's absurd that he's able to do this at age 33 and counting, but the facts don't lie. He's at least as effective as the others.

I would say in order, with only the narrowest of gaps between them, Ferrer, then Djokovic, then Murray, and an argument can be made for all three. I think everyone else is a tier below them as returners.

 

[Jaitock1991]

Very hard to tell. I think this issue is similar to the "who's got the best serve" thing. People say Sampras, Federer etc, and forget/fail to understand that they both have some of the best games ever to back it up with, compared to Karlovic/Isner etc. who are, in reality, leages ahead(for serve as a shot alone).

By the same token, Murray and Djokovic might break serve more often than the rest, but that also has A LOT to do with how superior the rest of their games are.

 

[TheRed]

Murray has better fundamentals but like everyone says, Djokovic is more dangerous. Djoker's able to hit with more power on the stretch and like everyone says, tends to pounce on weak serves better.
However, I still go with Murray. If you take a great server (raonic, anderson, karlovic) and ask me which ATP player has the best chance to break one of them first, the answer would be Murray.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Murray has better fundamentals but like everyone says, Djokovic is more dangerous. Djoker's able to hit with more power on the stretch and like everyone says, tends to pounce on weak serves better.
However, I still go with Murray. If you take a great server (raonic, anderson, karlovic) and ask me which ATP player has the best chance to break one of them first, the answer would be Murray.

I think it depends more on the surface. Murray would be more likely to break those three guys on grass and fast hard-courts but Djokovic would be more likely to break them on clay and slow hard-courts in my opinion.

 

[Gary Duane]

Regarding Ferrer, the numbers strongly hint, though that's all they can do, that he is the better returner with Nishikori a hair better once you get into a rally.

I also think the comments made regarding Djokovic/Murray are spot on. It really depends on the matchup. Murray gets more in play, while Djokovic eviscerates second serve chances like no other.

I go with the underdog here. I say 5-9 David Ferrer, though a player with a limited wingspan shouldn't be able to, is the best here. He's very good in a rally though not as good as Djokovic or Murray, yet he's always right there up with them if not better in terms of return success. It's absurd that he's able to do this at age 33 and counting, but the facts don't lie. He's at least as effective as the others.

I would say in order, with only the narrowest of gaps between them, Ferrer, then Djokovic, then Murray, and an argument can be made for all three. I think everyone else is a tier below them as returners.

Bryan, that's exactly the way I see it. Just think what Ferrer would have done with Almagro's serve, for instance, just to make the point that not all players with very good serves have been tall. And since wing span is approximately the same as height, on average, the average man who is 6 inches taller than another can only extend perhaps 3 extra inches to each side. So wing span may not be as large a factor as it is often made out to be.