Can Nadal beat Djokovic and Federer in non-clay slams again?

[UnderratedSlam]

Fact is that Nadal used to dominate in slams against his toughest opponents (many years ago). Aside from FO, that's not the case anymore. I believe he won last year's USO only because he didn't have to face Djokovic or RF there.

He may have played a close match at 2018 Wimby with Djokovic, but fact is that he didn't win it. And he failed at the AO against Federer in a similar match - a slam where he had beaten RF the 3 previous times.

Nadal appears to be mentally weaker than ever - at least against his two greatest rivals. He is visibly scared of Novak and Roger, a fear he didn't have when he was young. His winning mojo vs those two is gone - which a look at the recent H2H vs those two shows.

Personally, I am convinced he will never again beat either at a slam other than FO. (Obviously, RF doesn't play FO anymore, but that's a minor point.)

2-8 vs Djokovic in last ten meetings. 0-5 vs Federer. Rafa can only beat them on clay it seems.

Opinions?

 

[Centrius]

He was really close the last two times.We'll see.

 

[Pheasant]

If Millman can beat Fed, then Rafa can easily do it. We've seen how much Fed's form yo-yo's from match to match these days. Also, never count out a healthy Rafa. He's always dangerous. He might even take out Djokovic, which is a much tougher task these days.

 

[Rosstour]

IMO no. Djokovic solved him in 2012 and Federer solved him in 2015 @ Basel, Nadal hasn't won a match vs Fed since.

He can still crush mugs but the days of him being able to dictate matches against Fed and Djokovic are over. Fed coming back on him from 1-3 in the 5th at AO should have given us all the proof we need, but then Fed beat Rafa a few more times that year for good measure.

Rafa's last win v Fed was AO14 I believe, that's going on five years!!

 

[UnderratedSlam]

If Millman can beat Fed, then Rafa can easily do it. We've seen how much Fed's form yo-yo's from match to match these days. Also, never count out a healthy Rafa. He's always dangerous. He might even take out Djokovic, which is a much tougher task these days.

True, Federer's abysmal form vs Millman is something to consider. But somehow I can't imagine RF catching a bad day against Rafa. Nadal is not the lucky type.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

RAFA is dead. RIP in peace.

 

[itrium84]

Of course he can, and probably will.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Pantera]

Fact is that Nadal used to dominate in slams against his toughest opponents (many years ago). Aside from FO, that's not the case anymore. I believe he won last year's USO only because he didn't have to face Djokovic or RF there.

He may have played a close match at 2018 Wimby with Djokovic, but fact is that he didn't win it. And he failed at the AO against Federer in a similar match - a slam where he had beaten RF the 3 previous times.

Nadal appears to be mentally weaker than ever - at least against his two greatest rivals. He is visibly scared of Novak and Roger, a fear he didn't have when he was young. His winning mojo vs those two is gone - which a look at the recent H2H vs those two shows.

Personally, I am convinced he will never again beat either at a slam other than FO. (Obviously, RF doesn't play FO anymore, but that's a minor point.)

Opinions?

Given Nadal h2h against Federer at AustralianOpen is 3-1 and v Djokovic at US Open is 2-1 I’d think Nadal has a strong chance unless matches are indoors. He certainly has a much stronger chance than either do of even getting a set off Nadal on clay.

 

[mike danny]

True, Federer's abysmal form vs Millman is something to consider. But somehow I can't imagine RF catching a bad day against Rafa. Nadal is not the lucky type.

Nadal played 5 matches against 2013-early 2014 Roger.

 

[Pantera]

IMO no. Djokovic solved him in 2012 and Federer solved him in 2015 @ Basel, Nadal hasn't won a match vs Fed since.

He can still crush mugs but the days of him being able to dictate matches against Fed and Djokovic are over. Fed coming back on him from 1-3 in the 5th at AO should have given us all the proof we need, but then Fed beat Rafa a few more times that year for good measure.

Rafa's last win v Fed was AO14 I believe, that's going on five years!!

Nadal would have beat Federer at US open in 2017 Federer lost the round before to the guy Nadal then bagelled. Nadal would have beat Djokovic this year had roof not been closed at Wimbledon.

Djokovic and Federer have only beaten Nadal over 5 sets once each in almost 7 years.

Nadal problem v both is indoors

 

[mike danny]

It depends on Rafa's health too. He hasn't played much off clay this year and he is only getting older. This year he has picked up numerous different injuries.

 

[jm1980]

Nadal would have beat Federer at US open in 2017 Federer lost the round before to the guy Nadal then bagelled. Nadal would have beat Djokovic this year had roof not been closed at Wimbledon.

Djokovic and Federer have only beaten Nadal over 5 sets once each in almost 7 years.

Nadal problem v both is indoors

Are you forgetting about 2015?

 

[Pantera]

Are you forgetting about 2015?

Federer didn’t play him in 2015?

 

[tennis_pro]

True, Federer's abysmal form vs Millman is something to consider. But somehow I can't imagine RF catching a bad day against Rafa. Nadal is not the lucky type.

DAFUQ. It was the opposite for years.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

Given Nadal h2h against Federer at AustralianOpen is 3-1 and v Djokovic at US Open is 2-1 I’d think Nadal has a strong chance unless matches are indoors. He certainly has a much stronger chance than either do of even getting a set off Nadal on clay.

Yes, but RECENT results count for much more in predicting the future than ancient ones.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

DAFUQ. It was the opposite for years.

Federer didn't have BAD DAYS vs Rafa when Rafa dominated him, he had S**T-IN-PANTS DAYS. Not the same.

RF was scared of Rafa. Now it's the reverse.

 

[tennis_pro]

Federer didn't have BAD DAYS vs Rafa when Rafa dominated him, he had S**T-IN-PANTS DAYS.

RF was scared of Rafa. Now it's the reverse.

Please tell me more you seem to know a lot for someone who joined the boards 3 days ago.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

Please tell me more you seem to know a lot for someone who joined the boards 3 days ago.

I am 49, have been following pro tennis since the late 80s. Did you even exist back then?

I will have to disappoint you: no, I wasn't born last week.

No, there were no tennis boards on the internet back then. In fact, no internet at all! Blimey! And - gasp - there was no Federer either! Tennis was USELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you suggesting that one's presence on these boards makes one wiser tennis-wise as the years pile on? One could easily argue the opposite could be true, judging from some posts.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

When a rookie outplays a bionic man.

 

[RaulRamirez]

Simply put: I'm very slow to count out greats - especially any of The Big 3.

Rafa was neck-and-neck with Djokovic at Wimbeldon - in (almost inarguably) the match of the year and the de facto final. He was also playing at a high level at the US Open. In 2017, he reached the final of the AO and won the US Open.
I don't know that he will beat Roger or Novak again in one of the 3 majors (outside of RG), but I also don't know that he won't.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

You would be completely crazy to write off Rafa being Fedovic again in a non-clay slam, the last time he played both, it took some of the most extreme form of clutchness ever seen to stop him. The question is, can Federer and Djokovic keep producing that level of tennis every time they play him, because if they play, it will be semi or a final of a slam, and we know how hard it is to stop Nadal whenever he gets into the semis...one of the best records ever, if not the best ever.

 

[tennis_pro]

I am 49, have been following pro tennis since the late 80s. Did you even exist back then?

I will have to disappoint you: no, I wasn't born last week.

No, there were no tennis boards on the internet back then. In fact, no internet at all! Blimey! And - gasp - there was no Federer either! Tennis was USELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you suggesting that one's presence on these boards makes one wiser tennis-wise as the years pile on? One could easily argue the opposite could be true, judging from some posts.

No, just that juding by the level of your posts I thought you were 4,9 instead of 49.

 

[Towser83]

Nadal would have beat Federer at US open in 2017 Federer lost the round before to the guy Nadal then bagelled. Nadal would have beat Djokovic this year had roof not been closed at Wimbledon.

Djokovic and Federer have only beaten Nadal over 5 sets once each in almost 7 years.

Nadal problem v both is indoors

That's not how tennis works. Matchups mean that just because player A beats player B and player B beats player C, doesn't mean A wouldn't lose to C. Although if you're right it means every time Nadal has lost in a slam and Fed or Djokovic has gone on to win, they definitely would have beaten Nadal if they played.

Djokovic beat Nadal at Wimbledon 2018 and RG 2015, and also AO 2012. Djokovic has beaten Nadal on all 3 surfaces, where as Nadal hasn't beaten Djokovic at Wimbledon since 2007 where Djokovic actually retired at a set all. He's only beaten him once off clay in the past 8 years.

Stop making excuses over the roof, if that match was played with no roof and uninterrupted Nadal would have run out of gas. He played 100 drop shots in the semis and finals because he couldn't rally like he used to

 

[Towser83]

Never write Nadal off. Never. He only needs one event to pick his time to play his best

 

[Towny]

No reason whatsoever to write off Nadal. Very nearly beat Fed and Novak in last 2 slam matches. If he regains some form, he could take either of them at the US open. Possibly one of the other slams too

 

[junior74]

 

[mike danny]

Simply put: I'm very slow to count out greats - especially any of The Big 3.

Rafa was neck-and-neck with Djokovic at Wimbeldon - in (almost inarguably) the match of the year and the de facto final. He was also playing at a high level at the US Open. In 2017, he reached the final of the AO and won the US Open.
I don't know that he will beat Roger or Novak again in one of the 3 majors (outside of RG), but I also don't know that he won't.

What USO? This one? No, he wasn't. He was vulnerable. Khachanov and Thiem just didn't have the guts to finish him off.

 

[mike danny]

You would be completely crazy to write off Rafa being Fedovic again in a non-clay slam, the last time he played both, it took some of the most extreme form of clutchness ever seen to stop him. The question is, can Federer and Djokovic keep producing that level of tennis every time they play him, because if they play, it will be semi or a final of a slam, and we know how hard it is to stop Nadal whenever he gets into the semis...one of the best records ever, if not the best ever.

It's funny though. Just before Wimb there was a thread praising Nadal for his SF record. Fast forward to now and he has lost his last 2 GS semis.

The timing was perfect.

 

[mike danny]

It's interesting how the Fed haters have been saying for years how Fed got exposed by Nadal and Djokovic and didn't give a flying f*ck about his age.

Nadal at 29-32, back when all of these were happening to Fed, has had a horrible record against his biggest rivals, Fedovic, yet no one bats an eye.

 

[merwy]

Wait, when did he beat Djokovic or Federer at a clay slam recently?

 

[RaulRamirez]

What USO? This one? No, he wasn't. He was vulnerable. Khachanov and Thiem just didn't have the guts to finish him off.

I didn't say he was dominant at this year's US Open, and he wasn't. This was a small part of my post/reasoning. Rafa won his only summer HC 1000 tourney and reached the semis despite being pushed by both Khach and Thiem - I'd say that was playing at a high level.

But, is it your opinion that Rafa cannot (again) beat either Fed or Djoker at a non-clay "slam"?

 

[ibbi]

Fact is that Nadal used to dominate in slams against his toughest opponents (many years ago). Aside from FO, that's not the case anymore. I believe he won last year's USO only because he didn't have to face Djokovic or RF there.

He may have played a close match at 2018 Wimby with Djokovic, but fact is that he didn't win it. And he failed at the AO against Federer in a similar match - a slam where he had beaten RF the 3 previous times.

Nadal appears to be mentally weaker than ever - at least against his two greatest rivals. He is visibly scared of Novak and Roger, a fear he didn't have when he was young. His winning mojo vs those two is gone - which a look at the recent H2H vs those two shows.

Personally, I am convinced he will never again beat either at a slam other than FO. (Obviously, RF doesn't play FO anymore, but that's a minor point.)

Opinions?

Maybe he won't, but the fact he took them both 5 in conditions more suited to them than him is a pretty good sign. The idea that he's visibly scared of them is laughable. I mean maybe Roger last year really did get into his head, but he's fallen off so much this year I feel like the fear factor will have dissipated pretty comfortably.

Also the way he came out and bullied Novak in that 4th set at Wimbledon after letting that 3rd slip through his grip is all that needs to be said to anyone who thinks he is scared of him. 2011 this ain't. He lost that match because he's got a lesser serve, and serving second in the 5th exposed that.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

No, just that juding by the level of your posts I thought you were 4,9 instead of 49.

4.9 decades old. Yes.

Same thing.

Any more desperate, childish "insults"? We haven't seen enough of those. How exciting...

 

[Fiero425]

What USO? This one? No, he wasn't. He was vulnerable. Khachanov and Thiem just didn't have the guts to finish him off.

That has been the moniker I've put on the last couple "Next Gens" for a decade; a true inability to finish off the "Big 3" when they've had serious chances to win! Plenty of players have the ability, talent, and physicality to beat any of them, but when it comes to the elites, they can have a MP and find a way to give it all up, losing in the most miserable of fashions! Nole's been the most vulnerable dropping finals to Murray and Wawrinka in majors; lately to KK & AZ in the last 2 Masters, but has still held up his end for the most part!

 

[mike danny]

I didn't say he was dominant at this year's US Open, and he wasn't. This was a small part of my post/reasoning. Rafa won his only summer HC 1000 tourney and reached the semis despite being pushed by both Khach and Thiem - I'd say that was playing at a high level.

But, is it your opinion that Rafa cannot (again) beat either Fed or Djoker at a non-clay "slam"?

I'm not saying he can't beat Fed or Novak at another non-clay slam again. I never count out Rafa.

I'm just arguing on the USO part. His level wasn't that high and he should have been out in the 3rd round. But a gutless Khachanov (especially in that horrible 3rd set tiebreak) just didn't have it in him to pull the trigger.

 

[Sport]

IMO no. Djokovic solved him in 2012 and Federer solved him in 2015 @ Basel, Nadal hasn't won a match vs Fed since.

Extremelly unobjective and innacurate analysis. If Djokovic "solve" Nadal in 2012... Why did Nadal dominate Djokovic in Grand Slams in 2012-2014? Nadal beat Djokovic in 4 Grand Slam matches in a row between 2012 and 2014, including a match at the US Open. And at Wimbledon 2018, Djokovic almost lost to Nadal on indoor grass. So it is far from objective to say that Djokovic has "solved" Nadal in 2012.

Second, since 2008 Nadal is 6-1 against Federer in Grand Slams. Federer has only beaten Nadal in one Grand Slam match in the last decade (AO 2017). Only 1 victory of the last 7 matches in Grand Slams is not enough to confidently state that Federer now has "solved" Nadal. Also, your assertion that Federer has "solved" Nadal since 2015 is completely misleading. They only played 1 match in 2015, 0 matches in 2016, 4 matches in 2017, and 0 matches in 2018. So in reality, Federer has confortable beaten Nadal just one year (2017) in his entire career. The sample size is too little. Just because Federer has confortable beaten Nadal one year in his entire career, it is not enough to say that he has "solved" him.

 

[Sport]

I'm not saying he can't beat Fed or Novak at another non-clay slam again. I never count out Rafa.

I'm just arguing on the USO part. His level wasn't that high and he should have been out in the 3rd round. But a gutless Khachanov (especially in that horrible 3rd set tiebreak) just didn't have it in him to pull the trigger.

Khachanov played at a greater level than any rival Djokovic faced before the final. Nadal was in top form, he just faced a tougher draw than Djokovic. With Djokovic's draw, Nadal would have reached the US Open 2018 final and would have been fresh.

 

[mike danny]

Khachanov played at a greater level than any rival Djokovic faced before the final. Nadal was in top form, he just faced a tougher draw than Djokovic. With Djokovic's draw, Nadal would have reached the US Open 2018 final and would have been fresh.

Not disputing that, but it doesn't mean he was in great form. He wasn't. He struggled in every match from R3 onwards.

 

[Standaa]

Please tell me more you seem to know a lot for someone who joined the boards 3 days ago.

LOL, what an argument. You go tennis_pro.

 

[justasport]

yes he can beat fed and djoker…nadal can beat anybody on any surface

 

[justasport]

2019 ao favorites:
1. djoker
2. fed
3. zverev
4. nadal

 

[Steve0904]

He'll beat Fed in a slam again for sure unless Fed retires before it has a chance to happen. He'll beat Djokovic in a slam again too at some point, but it may not mean he'll win the title or be the favourite.

 

[Steve0904]

2019 ao favorites:
1. djoker
2. fed
3. zverev
4. nadal

Nadal still goes ahead of Zverev IMO. Not sure Fed's the 2nd favourite either unless the AO court has magical powers for Federer's game. The way Federer just finished the season, Nadal is probably the 2nd favourite at the AO.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Everyone is beatable, depending on a bunch of factors. Nadal's biggest hurdle isn't the level of the other players, but if he can be healthy enough to play his top game. Seems to be a rarity, similar to Fed as well. Novak, for the over-hype about him, is in the exact same boat and I wouldn't be surprised if all three have little peaks and more valleys next year.

That said, I think *IF* Nadal can be healthy and ready he has the best shot for AO. I actually think Nadal will not be this year's FO champ...but neither will either of the other two.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Yes he can. He was as close as you can get at Wimbledon to beating Djoker and as far as Fedal goes, not sure if we've seen the last of their matchups, but yes he can beat Fed too.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Federer is losing to Millman. Is this really a question? Davis cup is still there. Its not like tennis this season is over.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Federer is losing to Millman. Is this really a question? Davis cup is still there. Its not like tennis this season is over.

That was peak Federer, no excuses. He was prepared for the match and did everything he could do to compete.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

Nadal is 2-13 in his last 15 matches vs Federer and Djokovic including a 7 match win streak for Djokovic and a 5 match win streak for Federer. He might never beat Djokovic off clay again and will only beat Federer because he's ancient.

 

[Pantera]

That's not how tennis works. Matchups mean that just because player A beats player B and player B beats player C, doesn't mean A wouldn't lose to C. Although if you're right it means every time Nadal has lost in a slam and Fed or Djokovic has gone on to win, they definitely would have beaten Nadal if they played.

Djokovic beat Nadal at Wimbledon 2018 and RG 2015, and also AO 2012. Djokovic has beaten Nadal on all 3 surfaces, where as Nadal hasn't beaten Djokovic at Wimbledon since 2007 where Djokovic actually retired at a set all. He's only beaten him once off clay in the past 8 years.

Stop making excuses over the roof, if that match was played with no roof and uninterrupted Nadal would have run out of gas. He played 100 drop shots in the semis and finals because he couldn't rally like he used to

Sorry but h2h matters. Federer is still playing as he hates his losing h2h and Sampras devotes a whole chapter to h2h records. There is no debate here. Nadal is the best current player outdoors on all surfaces. He has not lost outdoors off clay since 2017. Djokovic wanted to keep roof closed. He knows he cannot beat Nadal in extreme heat over 5 sets.

At the USOpen Nadal is better in finals than Djokovic as seems more able to play his A game. Nadal third US open was massive as it really did mark him out as the Greatest. Off clay he is as good as Becker and Edberg entire careers..add clay in and well, I need not say any more.

 

[Pantera]

Nadal is 2-13 in his last 15 matches vs Federer and Djokovic including a 7 match win streak for Djokovic and a 5 match win streak for Federer. He might never beat Djokovic off clay again and will only beat Federer because he's ancient.

I’d back Nadal v both outdoors on any surface over 5 sets.