Can you serve 100MPH if your 6 foot and under??

[travlerajm]

The guy I’ve been playing with most days here is only 5’6”. He was a touring professional 6 years ago when he was a teenager. His serve is quite good. But he’s streaky. On his good days he can serve double digit aces against me. Other days his percentage goes down. He has a really clean and simple motion with a little bit of top on his first serve, with good leg thrust and lands 3-4 feet inside the court.

 

[onehandbh]

She is fat dude. Unless she lifts weights regularly she will be significantly less strong in her shoulders and arms than a random athletic male. That's just biology.

Strength comparisons in untrained men and trained women athletes - PubMed

The purpose was to compare untrained college men with trained collegiate women basketball and volleyball players in terms of absolute and relative upper and lower body strength. Absolute and relative strength comparisons were also made between the two groups of women athletes. Eighty subjects...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Serena is not stronger then an average athletic man in the upper body. FWIW I think TV makes her look bigger then she is. A woman who is 5'8" isn't really big - even if she looks it on TV. Most 5.0s are pretty athletic or at least used to be.

@Gael4
@GuyClinch
Are you a random athletic male?

Please post a video of yourself doing this:

Serena Williams doing handstand press-ups | Daily Mail Online

Tennis star Serena Williams shows off her strength by doing upside down press-ups against a wall followed by stretches and other muscle building work.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that is too hard for you, then post a video of yourself doing this basic yoga routine. I'm willing to bet that you cannot do it.

Serena Williams Shows Off Her Flexibility and Gives a Glimpse Into Her Morning Yoga Routine

Serena Williams impressed with her flexibility and flow in a morning yoga routine she shared on Instagram.

www.popsugar.com

You can also post a video of your serves or tennis here:

THE complete list of TW Posters' videos

The complete list of links to TW Posters' videos. Please reply with a link to your video and I will add it to the complete list. A @adamc637 NTRP 4.0 singles __ 3.5 vs 5.0 ___ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upcy-9OVIR0 @AgassiGrafFan groundstrokes __...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[onehandbh]

Sure, the average male is bigger, faster and stronger than the average female, but when you compare an average male (who sits at home bragging about how a 4.0 male can beat an WTA pro or how he can bench 300 lbs) to a female that is a professional athlete, you might be surprised.

 

[LeeD]

Now I'd you cite one of the average built, top 100 WTA, we men are stronger and more explosive.
But to cite Serena, you missed the boat. She throws farther than you, serves faster, lifts more weight, and is meaner and tougher than you.
She us more like an Olympic female gymnast, on steroids.....5'9" and 180-200 lbs.

 

[onehandbh]

Now I'd you cite one of the average built, top 100 WTA, we men are stronger and more explosive.
But to cite Serena, you missed the boat. She throws farther than you, serves faster, lifts more weight, and is meaner and tougher than you.
She us more like an Olympic female gymnast, on steroids.....5'9" and 180-200 lbs.

How many videos/posters do you see that have a better serve than an average top 100 WTA player?

THE complete list of TW Posters' videos

The complete list of links to TW Posters' videos. Please reply with a link to your video and I will add it to the complete list. A @adamc637 NTRP 4.0 singles __ 3.5 vs 5.0 ___ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upcy-9OVIR0 @AgassiGrafFan groundstrokes __...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

The avg guy does not train full time and may not have great serve technique, though.

 

[Pete Player]

At 5-11, 100 MPH easy. Used to be 110 to 115 before hamstring got torn off my but.
Since then knee broke down and collar bone broke in three. Luckily enough that was only the tossing arm.

Regular slice second serve is at about 95-ish.

 

[Pete Player]

considering that such a huge second serve would be about 10mph faster than that of ATP pro Schwartzman (or countless others) I find that totally believable....

I have been wondering the same for ages. My second serve is measured at 155-ish kmh. But obviously the complete game is not at the level, you compare my serve to.

However, yet really close to being fractured the final time on many occations, I think I got the question wrong.

Now, that I read the topic once again, my answer is no. You woun’t be able to serve 100 mph nor any other speed, if six-feet under. End of story.

 

[slipgrip93]

I'm no expert, but I'm guessing the new or modern racquet and string tech over the last two decades has probably significantly helped with generating ball and serve speed in general, even for people under 6ft tall , provided good technique and skill likely. So no more need for just leaded-up, sampras' ps85s, jk. Interestingly, this article, ("The Oddity of Naomi Osaka's Soft Second Serves"), posted this table about some pro WTA serves in mph.

"
Player Avg 1st Avg 2nd Gap Ratio
Osaka 105.5 78.5 27.0 0.74
Keys 105.2 85.4 19.7 0.81
SWilliams 103.8 88.6 15.2 0.85
Barty 102.0 88.2 13.7 0.87
KaPliskova 101.9 80.5 21.4 0.79
Collins 101.2 82.2 19.1 0.81
Kvitova 99.6 91.6 8.0 0.92
Muguruza 98.1 82.5 15.6 0.84
Pavlyuchenkova 97.9 84.5 13.4 0.86
Sharapova 97.9 89.6 8.2 0.92
Svitolina 97.6 78.2 19.4 0.80
Stephens 96.1 75.1 21.0 0.78
Halep 95.3 80.9 14.4 0.85
Kerber 94.0 78.4 15.7 0.83
"

 

[Deleted member 771407]

@Gael4
@GuyClinch
Are you a random athletic male?

Please post a video of yourself doing this:

Serena Williams doing handstand press-ups | Daily Mail Online

Tennis star Serena Williams shows off her strength by doing upside down press-ups against a wall followed by stretches and other muscle building work.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that is too hard for you, then post a video of yourself doing this basic yoga routine. I'm willing to bet that you cannot do it.

Serena Williams Shows Off Her Flexibility and Gives a Glimpse Into Her Morning Yoga Routine

Serena Williams impressed with her flexibility and flow in a morning yoga routine she shared on Instagram.

www.popsugar.com

You can also post a video of your serves or tennis here:

THE complete list of TW Posters' videos

The complete list of links to TW Posters' videos. Please reply with a link to your video and I will add it to the complete list. A @adamc637 NTRP 4.0 singles __ 3.5 vs 5.0 ___ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upcy-9OVIR0 @AgassiGrafFan groundstrokes __...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Lol. of course I can do handstands... Any semi athletic/young male can... I can also do about 30 wide pull ups in a row, and 50 chin ups. I'd love to see serena do that
Not yoga though, I have awful flexibility.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

Sure, the average male is bigger, faster and stronger than the average female, but when you compare an average male (who sits at home bragging about how a 4.0 male can beat an WTA pro or how he can bench 300 lbs) to a female that is a professional athlete, you might be surprised.

Who said a 4.0 can beat a WTA pro ? That's just stupid. Just like thinking that Serena is stronger than fit males. It takes an old out of shape dude to say things like that...

 

[onehandbh]

Lol. of course I can do handstands... Any semi athletic/young male can... I can also do about 30 wide pull ups in a row, and 50 chin ups. I'd love to see serena do that
Not yoga though, I have awful flexibility.

Post a video of your 30 pull-ups and 50 chinups.

I can bench press 800 lbs.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

Post a video of your 30 pull-ups and 50 chinups.

I can bench press 800 lbs.

I litteraly just did 5 of those handstands going down so that my head almost touches the ground...
If I can find someone to film me I will. I can't believe that you thing this is impressive. I'd never lie about something so trivial. I'll admit to anyone that I'm a 3.5 at best and suck at tennis. But you guys are weak as hell.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

Lol what am I doing with my life ? Here is a video of me emulating Serena Williams

If you want me to do the cartwheel, or roll on the floor, just ask. I may as well go all the way

 

[Wurm]

I don't think they blame their lack of height on a weak serve. They are just jealous of 6'3" guys with waiter's tray serves bombing in aces because the angles and physics favors them.

You can get away with worse technique at a certain height.

I have regularly seen this and I like to refer to it as "tall man's disease" serving - blokes who likely took up tennis when already tall who've at least got the throwing arm motion in place but that's about it. They'll quickly learn to hit a flat as a pancake, straight lined (well, gravity assisted) 100mph+ zipper that skids through on its bounce and they back it up with a handsy, sliced second serve, often all done with an open stance.

Getting them to recognise the best they ever do is about 35-40% first serves in over the course of a couple of sets can be a challenge and I have a running battle going on with one lad to convince him to commit to changing his serve if he wants to reach a level much higher than where he is at now. I'm not sure he's on the "If I had a better serve..." plausible deniability track yet, but he's not particularly willing to go slightly backwards to go forwards!

 

[onehandbh]

Lol what am I doing with my life ? Here is a video of me emulating Serena Williams

If you want me to do the cartwheel, or roll on the floor, just ask. I may as well go all the way

I still think the average guy cannot do this.
Average guy probably cannot do more than 10 pullups or chinups.
When I was in high school, I remember in P.E. class that most boys could not do this.
Same with one-arm pushups. They have always been somewhat easy for me since I was a kid, but most of the other kids could not do them. This probably has more to do with me being very light than being strong. I would imagine you can probably do these as well.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Who said a 4.0 can beat a WTA pro ? That's just stupid. Just like thinking that Serena is stronger than fit males. It takes an old out of shape dude to say things like that...

Don't believe that onehandbh was making that claim, himself, but I think there are some delusional 4.0 males here on TT who believe they would be competitive against a WTA player. Even 4.5 / 5.0 males cannot best a top 200 WTA player. A 6.0 male is another matter.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

I still think the average guy cannot do this.
Average guy probably cannot do more than 10 pullups or chinups.
When I was in high school, I remember in P.E. class that most boys could not do this.
Same with one-arm pushups. They have always been somewhat easy for me since I was a kid, but most of the other kids could not do them. This probably has more to do with me being very light than being strong. I would imagine you can probably do these as well.

I weigh almost 80 kg and I struggle to do even one single arm pull up (haven't tried in a while). In high schools most boys are not at the peak of their strength, far from it. And later in life when you start going to college or working many stop doing any kind of sport. But the potential is here, any guy can do it. Testosterone is one hell of a doping substance. There are very few women worldwide that can do a one armed pull up, and Serena is definitely not one of them...

But yes, there is probably a genetic factor. I could climb the rope with just my hands at 10. Always had strong arms.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

Don't believe that onehandbh was making that claim, himself, but I think there are some delusional 4.0 males here on TT who believe they would be competitive against a WTA player. Even 4.5 / 5.0 males cannot best a top 200 WTA player. A 6.0 male is another matter.

I agree with that statement of course. But the fact that they have superior skills doesn't mean that they are better at everything. Like chess or throwing darts. Or strength.
Just look at Seiria's channel. Strong guy, almost as bad as me in tennis (no offence I admire his perseverance)

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I'm no expert, but I'm guessing the new or modern racquet and string tech over the last two decades has probably significantly helped with generating ball and serve speed in general, even for people under 6ft tall , provided good technique and skill likely. So no more need for just leaded-up, sampras' ps85s, jk. Interestingly, this article, ("The Oddity of Naomi Osaka's Soft Second Serves"), posted this table about some pro WTA serves in mph.

"
Player Avg 1st Avg 2nd Gap Ratio
Osaka 105.5 78.5 27.0 0.74
Keys 105.2 85.4 19.7 0.81
SWilliams 103.8 88.6 15.2 0.85
Barty 102.0 88.2 13.7 0.87
KaPliskova 101.9 80.5 21.4 0.79
Collins 101.2 82.2 19.1 0.81
Kvitova 99.6 91.6 8.0 0.92
Muguruza 98.1 82.5 15.6 0.84
Pavlyuchenkova 97.9 84.5 13.4 0.86
Sharapova 97.9 89.6 8.2 0.92
Svitolina 97.6 78.2 19.4 0.80
Stephens 96.1 75.1 21.0 0.78
Halep 95.3 80.9 14.4 0.85
Kerber 94.0 78.4 15.7 0.83
"

This shows Simona Halep, at 5'6" (168 cm), averaging just over 95 mph. Have seen mid 90s averages on some of her matches and high 90s (98+ mph) avg in other matches. Her top serve speed in her Wimbledon win (over Serena) was just over 108 mph. Another poster claims she's served up to 120 mph. I've never witnessed that myself but I have seen Simona hit a few over 110 mph.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Justine Henin, at 167 cm, was a tad shorter than Simona Halep. Justine's serve had been measured at over 120 mph. She was clocked at 122 mph (196 km/hr) in 2005 at the Family Circle Cup.

Sony Ericsson WTA Tour News

 

[travlerajm]

@Gael4
@GuyClinch
Are you a random athletic male?

Please post a video of yourself doing this:

Serena Williams doing handstand press-ups | Daily Mail Online

Tennis star Serena Williams shows off her strength by doing upside down press-ups against a wall followed by stretches and other muscle building work.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that is too hard for you, then post a video of yourself doing this basic yoga routine. I'm willing to bet that you cannot do it.

Serena Williams Shows Off Her Flexibility and Gives a Glimpse Into Her Morning Yoga Routine

Serena Williams impressed with her flexibility and flow in a morning yoga routine she shared on Instagram.

www.popsugar.com

You can also post a video of your serves or tennis here:

THE complete list of TW Posters' videos

The complete list of links to TW Posters' videos. Please reply with a link to your video and I will add it to the complete list. A @adamc637 NTRP 4.0 singles __ 3.5 vs 5.0 ___ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upcy-9OVIR0 @AgassiGrafFan groundstrokes __...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

I pretty sure she would beat me at arm wrestling.

 

[onehandbh]

I weigh almost 80 kg and I struggle to do even one single arm pull up (haven't tried in a while). In high schools most boys are not at the peak of their strength, far from it. And later in life when you start going to college or working many stop doing any kind of sport. But the potential is here, any guy can do it. Testosterone is one hell of a doping substance. There are very few women worldwide that can do a one armed pull up, and Serena is definitely not one of them...

But yes, there is probably a genetic factor. I could climb the rope with just my hands at 10. Always had strong arms.

I was referring to one arm push-ups. 1 arm pull-ups are way harder.
The only people I have met that can do them are gymnasts or rock climbers

 

[Deleted member 771407]

I was referring to one arm push-ups. 1 arm pull-ups are way harder.
The only people I have met that can do them are gymnasts or rock climbers

Ah right, my bad. I thought you were super light.

 

[onehandbh]

Ah right, my bad. I thought you were super light.

I'm 182.5cm and usually weigh 73-75kg, which I consider light for my height.

 

[steve s]

with good leg thrust and lands 3-4 feet inside the court.

How does this help his serve???
Is this something you are working on for your serve??

 

[jered]

This shows Simona Halep, at 5'6" (168 cm), averaging just over 95 mph. Have seen mid 90s averages on some of her matches and high 90s (98+ mph) avg in other matches. Her top serve speed in her Wimbledon win (over Serena) was just over 108 mph. Another poster claims she's served up to 120 mph. I've never witnessed that myself but I have seen Simona hit a few over 110 mph.

I double checked the Halep serves and I made a mistake looking at the wrong column. It was her opponent that served over 120mph and that opponent was Serena Williams. Will correct my original post.

 

[travlerajm]

How does this help his serve???
Is this something you are working on for your serve??

Works for Sam Groth, and he can serve 160mph.

 

[jered]

How does this help his serve???
Is this something you are working on for your serve??

Driving up and forward definitely increases serve speed and gives angular advantage to hit into the court. In volleyball a jump serve can almost double the average serve speed over standing.

 

[nuclearmedicineman]

Yup, I'll just hoist my ball machine onto my head and let'r rip!!

 

[LeeD]

Surprised OP doesn't know about jump and forward drive on serves.
While adding a ton of speed is not attainable, jumping raises your contact point to give yourself a bigger target SO YOU CAN HIT HARDER MORE OFTEN

 

[La Pavoni]

I'm slightly above your height requirement at 187cm and the only data I've got is from the Head sensor and feedback from others.

In the past I've always just tried to fire down serves at top speed and I can pretty regularly get over 100mph. However I have stopped doing that. Your much better knocking whatever amount you need to off and actually hitting your targets/your opponents weaknesses. There's a couple of people I play with capable of dealing too well with a poorly placed fast serve and you just end up getting a horrid ball back to deal with. Sure, throw in something big for fun and variety, but a well placed serve at 95mph is much more difficult to deal with than something 10% quicker that's right in the strike zone.

 

[LeeD]

Well, an argument can be made advocating average WTA serves for all men players up to 4.5.
95 mph flats and 70 mph 2nds, easily beats any 4.5 men's player if it's backed by WTA top 100.

 

[GuyClinch]

@Gael4
@GuyClinch
Are you a random athletic male?

Please post a video of yourself doing this:

Serena Williams doing handstand press-ups | Daily Mail Online

Tennis star Serena Williams shows off her strength by doing upside down press-ups against a wall followed by stretches and other muscle building work.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that is too hard for you, then post a video of yourself doing this basic yoga routine. I'm willing to bet that you cannot do it.

Serena Williams Shows Off Her Flexibility and Gives a Glimpse Into Her Morning Yoga Routine

Serena Williams impressed with her flexibility and flow in a morning yoga routine she shared on Instagram.

www.popsugar.com

You can also post a video of your serves or tennis here:

THE complete list of TW Posters' videos

The complete list of links to TW Posters' videos. Please reply with a link to your video and I will add it to the complete list. A @adamc637 NTRP 4.0 singles __ 3.5 vs 5.0 ___ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upcy-9OVIR0 @AgassiGrafFan groundstrokes __...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Not athletic - never played varsity in HS. I'd put myself in the bottom 10% of men athlete wise - though I am taller then most guys. But the Serena hand stand stuff is not impressive. I am sure several posters can do it. Men are just much stronger then women in general - especially in the upper body.

Serena is in the top 2% for woman - but in the bottom half for men in terms of strength

The gap between women and men is huge. This is why the separated the sexes in the first place. The ATP, NBA, NFL, MLB are all coed technically - just no woman has been good enough to make the team/league - yet. Might happen someday - people think we could see a female pitcher in the future. Who knows..

Some rap star recently filmed himself crushing all the woman's powerlifting records - casually - in one afternoon. Serena is very strong - for a woman. Not in the pure sense. If we consider what a strong man can do as strong - she is not strong.

 

[dominikk1985]

Super strong for a woman. Not for a man. Federer can destroy the ball lie she can only dream of, and it's not just technique.

Are you talking about random athletic Males or male elite athletes? Obviously male elite athletes are stronger than female elite athletes but a random "fit" dude who goes to the gym twice a week is probably not stronger than an elite female athlete. I'm pretty sure less than 1% of all male tennis players can serve as hard as Serena.

Sure Serena will lose to the number 1000 in the world but really number 1000 which is probably like top 200 in the US which is like the top 0.1% of USTA players. Sure many of them are older players or guys that started as adults but generally you need a very high level to be better than female top athletes.

Just look at the 100m dash. Top women run about 10.7 seconds which is about 9 tenths of a second slower than the best men and really a lot of men can run 10.7 (about 600 men in the US ran under 10.7 in 2019 plus there are probably like 100 american football players who could do this too) but there are also millions of fit young men who can not run anywhere close to 10.7 including many pro athletes.

So yeah male elite athletes easily beat female elite athletes and male "sub elite" athletes like D1 guys also beat female elite athletes but thinking that you just need "a bit of fitness" to beat female elite athletes is quite delusional.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

Are you talking about random athletic Males or male elite athletes? Obviously male elite athletes are stronger than female elite athletes but a random "fit" dude who goes to the gym twice a week is probably not stronger than an elite female athlete. I'm pretty sure less than 1% of all male tennis players can serve as hard as Serena.

Sure Serena will lose to the number 1000 in the world but really number 1000 which is probably like top 200 in the US which is like the top 0.1% of USTA players. Sure many of them are older players or guys that started as adults but generally you need a very high level to be better than female top athletes.

Just look at the 100m dash. Top women run about 10.7 seconds which is about 9 tenths of a second slower than the best men and really a lot of men can run 10.7 (about 600 men in the US ran under 10.7 in 2019 plus there are probably like 100 american football players who could do this too) but there are also millions of fit young men who can not run anywhere close to 10.7 including many pro athletes.

So yeah male elite athletes easily beat female elite athletes and male "sub elite" athletes like D1 guys also beat female elite athletes but thinking that you just need "a bit of fitness" to beat female elite athletes is quite delusional.

Depends on the sport of course. But an athlete that plays tennis, definitely... look at her struggle to do handstands push ups. I can easily do tens of those, and I'm about the same weigh as her. Just because she looks big doesn't mean she is strong, women have much higher body fat %.

Your example doesn't hold, in sprint female athletes train for speed, and only for speed. Serena isn't a bodybuilder or a gymnast. She trains for tennis. Being super bulky would be a detriment to her speed on the court, and being very strong and very slim is incredibly hard for a female athlete.
Another element is that lower body strength is much more comparable between males and females. It is upper body strength which is incomparable. Compare results in sports that use the upper body a lot, like throwing, weight lifting, or even swimming, and you will see just how much stronger men really are.

Of course elite sprinter can run faster than me. And top athletes in strength disciplines are way stronger than me. But a top tennis athlete, I see no reason to believe that no.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

Are you talking about random athletic Males or male elite athletes? Obviously male elite athletes are stronger than female elite athletes but a random "fit" dude who goes to the gym twice a week is probably not stronger than an elite female athlete. I'm pretty sure less than 1% of all male tennis players can serve as hard as Serena.

Sure Serena will lose to the number 1000 in the world but really number 1000 which is probably like top 200 in the US which is like the top 0.1% of USTA players. Sure many of them are older players or guys that started as adults but generally you need a very high level to be better than female top athletes.

Just look at the 100m dash. Top women run about 10.7 seconds which is about 9 tenths of a second slower than the best men and really a lot of men can run 10.7 (about 600 men in the US ran under 10.7 in 2019 plus there are probably like 100 american football players who could do this too) but there are also millions of fit young men who can not run anywhere close to 10.7 including many pro athletes.

So yeah male elite athletes easily beat female elite athletes and male "sub elite" athletes like D1 guys also beat female elite athletes but thinking that you just need "a bit of fitness" to beat female elite athletes is quite delusional.

And even in your exemple, top women don't routinely reach 10.7. 10.73 was the gold medal in 2019. So 600 men in the US alone did better than the gold medal.
A woman going under 11 sec is similar to a man going under 10 sec. 1 second is absolutely huge in sprint.

 

[LeeD]

So, you are tall, fit, strong, young,......what keeps you at 3.5?
I wasn't any of those in 1974, my 1st day with a racket, but by spring '77, lost in the finals of a 100+ draw C level tourney at Golden Gate Park San Francisco.
C in those days was 3.5.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

So, you are tall, fit, strong, young,......what keeps you at 3.5?
I wasn't any of those in 1974, my 1st day with a racket, but by spring '77, lost in the finals of a 100+ draw C level tourney at Golden Gate Park San Francisco.
C in those days was 3.5.

Good question. Being strong is close to useless in tennis. I can destroy the ball if I want to, but it will lend 1 times out of 20 in the court.
I could focus on running everywhere and hitting down the middle and maybe have a chance at 4.0 or something. But I hate the idea of doing that.

The main reason is, I don't have the technique. I go for too much. I don't own my shots. And I haven't played enough tennis most likely.
oh and my cardio is not that great, just slightly above average.
And I'm not tall, I'm slightly under 6'0'', (I'm 180 cm short)

I can do more pull ups than you, and 90% of tennis players. Does it have anything to do with tennis ? No, you would beat me, as would 90% of serious tennis players.

And maybe I'm simply not that talented. I want to find out.

I know I should have let you and others say nonsense about serena's strength, I look like an arrogant ****** by saying how it is. But well, I have this compulsion to barge in and give my 2 cents when I see something that I think is wrong. So if you want to believe that Serena is a beast and stronger than the majority of males, more power to you.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Everyone still just serving 70 MPH cream puffs?

 

[GuyClinch]

Are you talking about random athletic Males or male elite athletes? Obviously male elite athletes are stronger than female elite athletes but a random "fit" dude who goes to the gym twice a week is probably not stronger than an elite female athlete. I'm pretty sure less than 1% of all male tennis players can serve as hard as Serena.

Sure Serena will lose to the number 1000 in the world but really number 1000 which is probably like top 200 in the US which is like the top 0.1% of USTA players. Sure many of them are older players or guys that started as adults but generally you need a very high level to be better than female top athletes.

Just look at the 100m dash. Top women run about 10.7 seconds which is about 9 tenths of a second slower than the best men and really a lot of men can run 10.7 (about 600 men in the US ran under 10.7 in 2019 plus there are probably like 100 american football players who could do this too) but there are also millions of fit young men who can not run anywhere close to 10.7 including many pro athletes.

So yeah male elite athletes easily beat female elite athletes and male "sub elite" athletes like D1 guys also beat female elite athletes but thinking that you just need "a bit of fitness" to beat female elite athletes is quite delusional.

It's not delusional at all. In terms of upper body strength men are much much stronger. You are living in a dream world if you belief otherwise. Let me illustrate this with numbers and facts.

Bench Press Standards for Men and Women (lb) - Strength Level

Now as you can see - at say 180 pounds (Serena's weight) the strongest women in the world - elite in their strength are pushing up 239 pounds. That's a fair bit of weight. But walk into any golds gym in the entire country - and you will find men EASILY doing that kind of weight - men who are not even very athletic and are just average. Men who way less then her 180 or so pounds.

Guys at 180 pounds routinely start out pretty high. Women are just not strong compared to men. It's a staggering difference and if you pay attention this often comes up in comical ways.. The other day some skinny dude escape the grasp of this huge woman cop - he just said - no and pulled away from her like it was nothing. This shouldn't be a newsflash to anyone that has gone weight lifting with women. Untrained men are STRONGER then trained women - the gap is huge. Men are built for upper body strength.

But here is the thing - you DO NOT NEED to be very strong to serve hard. Serena has the technique to serve well. The fact that she looks a bit muscular isn't the key to her serve speed. Venus was much thinner and could serve about as hard.

This isn't to take away from Serena. But even a thin guy like Novak is much stronger then her. Wiry looking guys are way stronger - don't be fooled by the thick arms and such..

Tennis is not about upper body strength. that's why 99lb girls can belt out big forehands compared to rec men..

 

[LeeD]

Dude, Venus is 6'2".
Some say Serena is 5'9".
Serena serves 5 mph faster, gets it in twice as often.

 

[LeeD]

You ever consider leg strength?

 

[LeeD]

Or is upper body the only criteria.

 

[GuyClinch]

Or is upper body the only criteria.

Men are stronger with legs as well - but the difference is smaller. Again - pretty obvious if you actually went to the gym a few times in your life..

Strong men do 2.5x their body weight in squat - Strong women 1.8x But with legs at least you do not see men starting out who squat as well as am excellent female lifter. Women are just not very strong in general. Again this is why we separate the sexes in sports - so women do not have to compete with the stronger sex. You do understand then men run faster and jump higher then woman right.. This is because they are stronger and generate more power - hence better leaping and more speed.

I remember men's under 15 team beat the women's gold medal soccer team.. if you want to talk about a 'leg sport' LOL. Watch some decent HS men's basketball and go watch some WNBA. Unless they get a bunch of transgender athletes in the WNBA they will underperform. They lack the power and lift the male athletes have..

Tennis is a great sport for women because it does not put the emphasis on speed and power in such an obvious way.. Its still there - but the women look elegant and graceful out there at least I think they do.. Another sport where women perform really well - and can easily crush any casual man is golf. A pro female golfer is going to crush all but the most dedicated amateurs.

Tennis is a skill sport - and while strength helps Serena isn't really relying on that in her serve. If anything she leaks quite a bit and doesn't get the full value out of her legs.. Rick Macci has pointed this out.

 

[GuyClinch]

And even in your exemple, top women don't routinely reach 10.7. 10.73 was the gold medal in 2019. So 600 men in the US alone did better than the gold medal.
A woman going under 11 sec is similar to a man going under 10 sec. 1 second is absolutely huge in sprint.

Yeah there are quite a few HS boys who have beaten the woman's world record... Men generate more power - so its not surprising they can run faster. 1 second is a huge amount you are right. If they put a guy running a 10.7 vs. a 10.0 the 10.0 guy will leave the 10.7 guy in the dust.

 

[dominikk1985]

Good question. Being strong is close to useless in tennis. I can destroy the ball if I want to, but it will lend 1 times out of 20 in the court.
I could focus on running everywhere and hitting down the middle and maybe have a chance at 4.0 or something. But I hate the idea of doing that.

The main reason is, I don't have the technique. I go for too much. I don't own my shots. And I haven't played enough tennis most likely.
oh and my cardio is not that great, just slightly above average.
And I'm not tall, I'm slightly under 6'0'', (I'm 180 cm short)

I can do more pull ups than you, and 90% of tennis players. Does it have anything to do with tennis ? No, you would beat me, as would 90% of serious tennis players.

And maybe I'm simply not that talented. I want to find out.

I know I should have let you and others say nonsense about serena's strength, I look like an arrogant ****** by saying how it is. But well, I have this compulsion to barge in and give my 2 cents when I see something that I think is wrong. So if you want to believe that Serena is a beast and stronger than the majority of males, more power to you.

I was not doubting at all that male elite athletes or even D1 athletes are stronger than female elite athletes and random dudes are also stronger than random girls. What I was doubting is that random recreational athletes who work out 2-3 hours a week or stronger or faster than female elite athletes.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Dude, Venus is 6'2".
Some say Serena is 5'9".
Serena serves 5 mph faster, gets it in twice as often.

Perhaps, on average. True more in the past decade or so than it was previously???

Venus had the fastest WTA serve in regular competition (until Sabine Lisiki hit 131 mph at Stanford in 2014). Venus had hit serves at 129 mph in 2007 and 2008. She apparently also hit a serve in 2013 at 129.8 mph that was not counted as an official serves speed since the outfit who measured it was not fully accredited at the time.

In 2013, Serena got close to her sister's top speed with a serve of 128.6 mph at the AO.

Top 5 Serves in the WTA - TennisPAL

The serve has always been one of the weaker strokes in women’s tennis. Lindsay Davenport has called it appalling! Through the years it has been very common to see multiple breaks within a set. The game continues to evolve, and so does the quality of the serve on the circuit. Regardless of the...

tennispal.com

 

[travlerajm]

Surprised OP doesn't know about jump and forward drive on serves.
While adding a ton of speed is not attainable, jumping raises your contact point to give yourself a bigger target SO YOU CAN HIT HARDER MORE OFTEN

It actually does add quite a bit of speed too. It’s simple physics. If your body’s center of mass is moving forward at a high velocity at impact, then you are delivering more momentum to the ball. It’s one of the reasons why Sam Groth can serve 160mph, and why Edberg’s serve was so formidable despite seemingly putting most of his racquet head speed into spin. Those guys landed way out inside the court because they launched their entire body forward explosively.

Someone filmed me last weekend in my tournament hitting an Edberg style serve. I don’t know the speed, but it’s an american twist service winner. In my youth 30 years ago, I used to jump even further into the court and serve much harder. In this example, my center of gravity is about 16” off the ground at contact.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

I was not doubting at all that male elite athletes or even D1 athletes are stronger than female elite athletes and random dudes are also stronger than random girls. What I was doubting is that random recreational athletes who work out 2-3 hours a week or stronger or faster than female elite athletes.

I never said you did. Reread my post. Serena is a trained athlete AT TENNIS. She is not a sprinter or a bodybuilder. She can hit most balls way harder than me, thanks to her technique, but the argument is wether she is stronger. And again, I see no evidence of that. She is struggling to do a very simple exercice requiring upper body strength.

A bodybuilder in tennis would be awful btw. A lot of useless weight, and probably less muscle elasticity, so less easy power.

 

[GuyClinch]

I was not doubting at all that male elite athletes or even D1 athletes are stronger than female elite athletes and random dudes are also stronger than random girls. What I was doubting is that random recreational athletes who work out 2-3 hours a week or stronger or faster than female elite athletes.

You can doubt all you want - but people posted charts with measurements taken from real world measurements and studies. And when it comes to upper body strength men are much stronger then women - even UNTRAINED ones. Again if you look at the evidence you find out that even men who do not train will come in and be stronger then ELITE women in some lifts like the bench press.

Genetics is king. Men have evolved to be stronger in the chest - no doubt to attract the attention of females - and prove their suitability in protecting the offspring..

Now throw in the fact that I cited athletic men - not coach potatoes - and it's just not even close. These movies and tv shows where you see 100lbs women beating the crap out of 250lb MMA fighter types - that is the delusional stuff. Compared to a moderately strong man - even trained women are weak in upper body strength.

This isn't to bash women - so what if they are not as strong. They can still serve big. You do not need to be very strong or very tall to hit 100 MPH serves. Serena is proof of that - she doesn't get a pass because some male rec tennis players think she is terrifically strong. She is not strong compared to a strong man - just compared to some other women..

100mph serve is attainable but healthy men of pretty much any size - and by women of above average height and above average strength (for a woman). If you want to pretend Serena can only serve big because you think she is a super woman - have at it. But its not true. She is not stronger then many athletic recreational tennis players and many other athletic men. But she serves much bigger.

It's the skill that matters..