Confusing "Wrist Snap" Concept on Kick Serve

[Funbun]

I've been experimenting with the kick serve or about a year now, and just recently I lost my kick. My serve will have the trajectory of a kick serve, yet bounce like a flat serve. No, it's not because of the balls.

However, I remember the key difference from right now and back then was my focus on the wrist snap. I noticed that when I intentionally supinated and pronated my hand forward and to the left (lefty here), I would get massive kickers 80% of the time.

I recently had a match and I was rather frustrated with why it didn't kick up on my opponent. To make matters worse, I double faulted many times attempting to serve, almost always out ahead of the opposing service box. When I did get it in, no kick. It bounced like a flat, no matter how much knee bend/shoulder rotation/racquet speed I put on it. I even assured my toss was further to my right.

Thus, to clear my confusion, is the wrist snap one of the more crucial defining factors of a kick serve? Back then, I laid my wrist way back, then brought it forward in a fast pronate/supinate motion a little after I made contact with the ball. Last match, I didn't.

Can someone please clarify this? I hear many contradictory advice on the wrist snap, some people stating it's a "natural motion", some people saying "it's all in the wrist snap". What's correct??

 

[ManuGinobili]

when I intentionally supinated and pronated my hand forward and to the left (lefty here)

No... please don't... it's the highway to injury hell.... the so called wrist snap is a natural consequence of the arm accelerating up in combination with a relaxed wrist. If you're intentionally doing it, that means you're forcing the wrist doing something unnatural (in a tennis sense).

Many instructor mention the term to beginners without going into the right details, which is very dangerous because it leads to many wrong ways players can do it.

I have done this forceful wrist snap up to a month ago, and that snap sure feels good... it's all an illusion!! We must learn to coil the ab core and move our arms faster in order to produce better serves, not speeding up the wrist which is something at the END of the production line.

To your personal issue, I think it's a matter of form and technique rather than racket head speed. It's ok, everybody's technique gets worse over time without good guidance... kinda like how iron rusts. I would suggest take some lessons to get your techniques right.

 

[gzhpcu]

To quote Jim Mclennan:

Whether using a wet towel in a locker room, or even some type of whip, the secret is
to pull forcefully and then stop the hand to snap the towel or whip, or in this
instance the racquet. Good servers have a loose whip like look and feel, where at
the top of the swing the hand actually slows down while the racquet speeds up, said
another way an inverted “V” at the top of the swing.

 

[Jagman]

Originally posted by ManuGinobili:

the so called wrist snap is a natural consequence of the arm accelerating up in combination with a relaxed wrist

I couldn't agree more. Using Gzhpcu's wet towel analogy, you don't get good results with a tensed arm and locked wrist.

Maintaining a relaxed arm, racquet head acceleration is largely imparted by the effort to pull up out of the back scratcher position into the ball. As the racquet head whips through the top of the arc, the wrist, which remains flexible, "snaps" forward naturally.

Things like how you hold the racquet, firmness of grip, and even grip size can affect your ability to stay loose. Technique and mental attitude also play a role. Oft-repeated references to the "wrist snap" will likely have a different focus as applied to individual players and more specific contexts.

Given a good service motion, the most important aspect of the kick serve, IMO, is the spin imparted to the ball, which in turn, is highly dependent upon placement of the toss. For me, that means the toss is not only more to the side, but also back. I don't know if that is something you considered Funbun; you did mention that you had examined the toss in terms of putting it more to the right for a lefty.

Hope that helps somewhat. Cheers!

 

[ebrainsoft]

Agree, sounds like you got tight during your match. I always remind myself that the only shot you have full control is the serve. So next time you loose your kick server remember to relax (especially you wrist and arm) and do not rush your swing!

 

[Funbun]

Thanks guys, I'll try to loosen up and pay less attention to my "wrist snap". Also, Jagman, you have a point about the toss. I remember I read something on Sampras's "left launch" by John Yandell in kick serve due to toss placement.

I'm going to test out and see if I can get back my kick today.

 

[smoothtennis]

Over time your toss can also tend to 'creep' month after month from a 'over your head' position to more out front like a typical first serve toss. This can make it very diffucult to kick the serve, because your serving motion is more forward rather than UP to the ball. This is almost always the reason my serve quits kicking regardless of how hard I hit it. Then I remember, "Oh, Duh, you can't hit UP if the ball is out front!". Then I get the kick back.

I agree - keep that wrist loose, and focus on the toss so you can hit UP to the ball, not OUT to the ball. The snap happens naturally with the looser wrist.

 

[tennis_pr0]

Chances are if you're not getting the ball to bounce up, you are not putting enough top spin on the ball. A common mistake with the kick serve is not getting under the ball enough. You really want to "grip" under the ball to generate that top spin. This usually comes down to ball toss and swing path. Make sure that the toss is directly or a little bit to the right of your head (for a lefty), and slightly behind you.

You said you already have the knee bend so I wont elaborate on that. As far as the wrist snap goes, well the better the wrist snap for any serve the more spin you will get, thus the more kick you will get. If this means that you need to really focus on the wrist snap, then you should do that. One last thing I will mention, and I don't know if you're doing this because I have not seen video of your serve, but you said you have the right trajectory but it's just not kicking. Perhaps you are swinging up on the ball too much. You do need to swing up on the ball to generate that top spin, but it's important to understand that you still need to hit through the ball as well. Make sense?

 

[GeorgeLucas]

needs more spin, maaaaaan.

 

[Funbun]

Tennis pr0, excuse my rude word picking, but you stated that

As far as the wrist snap goes, well the better the wrist snap for any serve the more spin you will get, thus the more kick you will get. If this means that you need to really focus on the wrist snap, then you should do that.

Isn't this a bit contradictory to much of the advice given previously? Jagman said,

As the racquet head whips through the top of the arc, the wrist, which remains flexible, "snaps" forward naturally.

How can I "focus" on the wrist snap, as you state, yet make sure it "'snaps' forward naturally"? Is it possible to perform a "wrist snap" WHILE keeping it as natural as possible?

As an analogy, should I make it as natural as hopping by bending your knees? You don't have to bend your knees to hop, but it's natural. Is that what all of you are saying? I mean, bending your knees is a voluntary action. Should the wrist snap be as voluntary as bending your knees during a kick serve?

I'm completely confused over what's "natural" and what's "focused on".


Also, tenis_pr0, that's a unique piece of advice, hitting from under the ball instead of brushing up the side. This probably explains why I get limited spin. I didn't try that today while serving, yet my balls still were flat and not "biting the ground". My dad was just slicing it back from waist height, and I was wondering why it didn't kick up on him. (I'm not that mean, btw!)

 

[Zachol82]

In its most basic form, spin = how much brush-action you get on the ball as opposed to smacking the ball. The more brush the more spin. As for kick serves, the closer the brush is from 6-o'clock to 12-o'clock, the more kick it'll have.

That being said, are you tossing the ball behind you enough? As oppose to a more flat-serve or a slice-serve, you get more kick from the ball if you toss it behind you rather than in front of you.

Rather than snapping your wrist naturally, like a flat serve to bring the ball back down, a kick serve brings the ball back down by brushing up on the ball and let the topspin bring the ball back down instead.

 

[Funbun]

That also brings another question, Zachol:

Should I try to hit up on the ball from underneath, thereby brushing up on it (as stated by tennis_pr0）? Or, should I try to merely brush up on the side of it, like a flat serve, but different swing path?

 

[tennis_pr0]

Fun Bun, I never said you have to focus on the wrist snap, and yes the advice given previously was correct, the wrist snap should happen naturally from a nice lose arm and good, fluent motion. You did say however, that previously when your serves were kicking, that you really focused on the wrist snap. So in response, I said if that's what it takes for you to execute a good wrist snap, then do it.

If we are focusing specially on your kick serve question, you were asking what the reasons could be that your serve is not kicking. I gave you a few: The first could be you're not getting under the ball enough, and the second could be an improper ball toss/point of contact.

You asked Zachol if you should brush up on the side of the ball, and like I said before, you might generate some topspin, but not nearly enough to get the ball to kick. You do need to get under the ball for an effective kick serve. Think 7 or 8 o'clock. This is my opinion is the most common problem with the kick serve, an improper contact point on the ball.

The service motion should be as natural and the same for all serves (flat, kick, slice). You should never have to snap more or less for any serve. The only thing that changes from serve to serve is ball toss location, swing path and contact point. For a flat serve, you throw the ball a bit in front of you and just hit is square, for a kick serve you throw the ball more behind you and brush up more. The service motion is still same and should feel just as natural, you are just changing your ball toss and swinging up on the ball more.

 

[gzhpcu]

Thanks guys, I'll try to loosen up and pay less attention to my "wrist snap". Also, Jagman, you have a point about the toss. I remember I read something on Sampras's "left launch" by John Yandell in kick serve due to toss placement.

I'm going to test out and see if I can get back my kick today.

As I remember the article, he stated that Sampras had a toss well to the left and forward. The "left launch" means he launched his body forward on a diagonal of about 60 degress to the left, generating a contact point much more to the left, and hence more topspin, combined with more speed.

 

[Funbun]

Thanks a lot for clarifying, gzhpcu and tennis_pr0. I'll try to contact under the ball instead of the side to get more topspin. I guess I don't need to force the wrist snap.

Again, thanks! =)

I'll try this the next time I serve; I'm actually starting to remember when I first got my kicker in, I noted my contact point was different!

 

[Zachol82]

That also brings another question, Zachol:

Should I try to hit up on the ball from underneath, thereby brushing up on it (as stated by tennis_pr0）? Or, should I try to merely brush up on the side of it, like a flat serve, but different swing path?

Yes, hitting from under the ball will give you more top-spin for a good kick. However, to a certain degree, you're trading off power and pace for spin. It's good as a second serve to have a monstrous spin on your kick serve, but as a first serve, I would still recommend more pace overall.

Kick serves are also very useful if you can control one to land short and wide, this will pull your opponent off the court and leave 3/4 of the court open for you. In this case, it can be use as a first serve, but it's pretty hard to be that accurate all the time.

 

[Funbun]

It's very fun doing that in doubles, Zachol. I even get free points for getting the ball into the court-seperator nets. =)

 

[gzhpcu]

The service motion should be as natural and the same for all serves (flat, kick, slice). You should never have to snap more or less for any serve. The only thing that changes from serve to serve is ball toss location, swing path and contact point. For a flat serve, you throw the ball a bit in front of you and just hit is square, for a kick serve you throw the ball more behind you and brush up more. The service motion is still same and should feel just as natural, you are just changing your ball toss and swinging up on the ball more.

I would just add the swing path is up and across. This also means turning your shoulders more on the windup.

 

[tennis_pr0]

I would just add the swing path is up and across. This also means turning your shoulders more on the windup.

Yes, correct.

 

[sureshs]

You guys can say all you want against wrist snaps, but fact is most club players 5'6" or so and taller need to do a little something extra to get the ball into the box. It is not like a free throw, but a dunk into the basket. Otherwise, either the serve sails long, or it is one of the gentle "slap the ball" serves which doesn't really cut it.

 

[aznstyle]

so i shouldnt try to consciously snap my wrist to bring the ball down in the court? ive watch a lot of tennis vids, and a lot of them seem to instruct us to snap our wrist.

 

[tennis_pr0]

so i shouldnt try to consciously snap my wrist to bring the ball down in the court? ive watch a lot of tennis vids, and a lot of them seem to instruct us to snap our wrist.

If the wrist snap is something you are just learning, then yes, but like anything else, with enough practice it should eventually become second nature.

 

[sureshs]

so i shouldnt try to consciously snap my wrist to bring the ball down in the court? ive watch a lot of tennis vids, and a lot of them seem to instruct us to snap our wrist.

Tennis channel has one from a coach called Dial Jones.

It is emphasized separately as such to get the student going. After that, it should become routine (assuming you keep working on it). Unfortunately, many club players don't work on it, so they keep slapping the ball and getting it in by chance. For them, a deliberate attention to wrist snap may not be a bad idea.

 

[charliefedererer]

Yes, snapping your wrist is the best and quickest way to develop tennis elbow.

Once you have developed tennis elbow you can then take the time off to learn how by avoiding snapping your wrist you can subsequently avoid developing tennis elbow.

Or you can not snap your wrist in the first place.

 

[LeeD]

Think.... the wrist is a HINGE !!!
You know, the flexi, loose, bendable, non resistent link between the hands and the lower arm.
You power the shoulders and arm, LOOSEN the wrist, to allow it to HINGE.

 

[papa]

It always amazes me that whenever this subject comes up nobody ever mentions the height of the arc on the serve. The ball has to get high to bounce high. I don't care how much spin you get on a ball, if the ball doesn't get good height, its simply not going to bounce high.

All engineers are familiar with vectors and you cannot transform a horizontal vector into a vertical one - just against the laws of physics. So the only way to get good height on your bounce is to get the ball up. Topspin helps but you can put all the topspin on a ball and unless you get the ball up, it just won't have the vertical element after it bounces.

I know this might sound silly but take a basket of ball "outside" the court and staying about 6 - 8 feet from the fence (positioned so your looking at the net) try and serve the ball over the back fence and into your side of the net - later you might want to get the ball around the service line (again on your side of the net but still outside the court) but that's not easy.

The point is you'll start to see that you have to get the ball up quickly to clear the fence and then you'll start to appreciate the height of the bounce.

 

[LeeD]

Why go to all that trouble just to figure out bounce heights?
Just practice your twist/kicks against a partner! :shock:
He stands at the baseline, you hit your twist/kick to him. If you clear the net by 6', the ball will be over his eyes. If you don't hit high enough or deep enough, your serve will bounce lower into his strikezone.
Of course, you can add midgets and giants into the equation, but you can also figure that out.

 

[GuyClinch]

Don't think of it as snapping your wrist but turning your forearm. In basketball you snap your wrist - in football and tennis you turn your forearm for extra power. People call that wrist snap but it confuses people.

FWIW - Its not "natural" at all IMHO people with poor throwing mechanics need to be conciously taught to pronate. Your adding in a seperate power source to your swing and its not natural for alot of people - especially women.

 

[papa]

Why go to all that trouble just to figure out bounce heights?
Just practice your twist/kicks against a partner! :shock:
He stands at the baseline, you hit your twist/kick to him. If you clear the net by 6', the ball will be over his eyes. If you don't hit high enough or deep enough, your serve will bounce lower into his strikezone.
Of course, you can add midgets and giants into the equation, but you can also figure that out.

No, I'm not trying to have players figure out exact bounce heights. I would just like them to realize that without height on the arc of the serve, your not going to realize any height after the bounce. Many might be of the opinion that you can increase height after bounce just by putting more spin on the ball. Yes, that helps to some degree but the the height of the arc will determine to a much greater extent the height after the bounce.

Clearing the net by 6' is fine if the ball is heading "down" from a higher point which is the case with most second serves.

 

[papa]

FWIW - Its not "natural" at all IMHO people with poor throwing mechanics need to be conciously taught to pronate. Your adding in a seperate power source to your swing and its not natural for alot of people - especially women.

Yes, I agree. A good way to have them get the idea of a correct motion is to throw a racquet in an open field. Again, it might sound silly but it works.

 

[mucat]

That also brings another question, Zachol:

Should I try to hit up on the ball from underneath, thereby brushing up on it (as stated by tennis_pr0)? Or, should I try to merely brush up on the side of it, like a flat serve, but different swing path?

I don't see how that would make any different. When you hit topspin groundstrokes, which way would produce more topspin? The ball does not know if you are hitting underhand and overhead.

Another thing, the amount of topspin is determine by how fast your racket hit across the ball. It doesn't matter the contact point. The contact point will change the trajectory of the flight path.

 

[Funbun]

Mucat, I'm sorry, but your response frustrates me. I have tried to perform a kick serve numerous times in a single match. As I have stated, it had the trajectory of a kick serve, but bounced like a flat.

I have done kick serves where the ball bounce well above 6 feet, and I don't use as much racquet speed as I did that match.

My experience with attempting the kick serves have seemed to show otherwise with the trajectory, mucat. When I forced my wrist snap (before), I normally had my racquet face rather up and facing the underside of the ball. However, the resulting trajectory was that of a normal kick serve; the ball dipped into the service box, not to mention with a kicked up bounce.

However, I have yet to attempt what tennis_pr0 said. I believe I was able to kick the ball up high before BECAUSE of leaving my wrist back far enough to have the racquet face underneath the ball, thereby "gripping" the bottom.

 

[GuyClinch]

My experience with attempting the kick serves have seemed to show otherwise with the trajectory, mucat. When I forced my wrist snap (before), I normally had my racquet face rather up and facing the underside of the ball. However, the resulting trajectory was that of a normal kick serve; the ball dipped into the service box, not to mention with a kicked up bounce.

I think your really overthinking this. Think of pronation as an additional power source - and your swing path as determining the spin.

Thus for a flat serve your swinging straight at the ball (the back of it) - so bam alot of power going forward. For a kicker your swinging what feels like almost straight UP at the ball. (To really get a good tricky KICK motion you want to swing up and think about trying to hit the left side of the ball). And for a slice serve your racquet is traveling towards the net post..(or even more to the right then that)..

The serve doctor (the Nick Bolleteri coach) explains pronation well and how you can serve with and without it. (Of course without it -what he calls "long arming" the ball is poor form). But its very possible.

Anyway I think your on the wrong track if your trying to time or tweak your pronation for the kick serve. I used to think like this and it technically is probably going on (like a late pronation for a slice serve or an earlier one for a flat serve) but mentally speaking its a road to disaster I feel.

Once you get the pronation motion down you just change your swing trajectory for the various swings. Your body and mind kinda take care of the rest. And yes you pronate on every serve - near as I can tell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9yWA9Ho73M

I posted that video before but I think its instructive especially the early shots - notice how he is swinging up at the ball while keeping his rear shoulder back longer then you would on a flat serve. That's key as well..don't let that back shoulder come around to early.. Its much like throwing a ball high into the air..

 

[mucat]

Mucat, I'm sorry, but your response frustrates me. I have tried to perform a kick serve numerous times in a single match. As I have stated, it had the trajectory of a kick serve, but bounced like a flat.

How does the trajectory looks like? It should look like the ball suddenly break and dip and dive into the box. It is all physics, if there is enough height and the ball dip fast, it will bounce high. Unless it is a dead ball.

I have done kick serves where the ball bounce well above 6 feet, and I don't use as much racquet speed as I did that match.

How much action dip does the ball have? Because a slight loopy serve can bounce high too.

My experience with attempting the kick serves have seemed to show otherwise with the trajectory, mucat. When I forced my wrist snap (before), I normally had my racquet face rather up and facing the underside of the ball. However, the resulting trajectory was that of a normal kick serve; the ball dipped into the service box, not to mention with a kicked up bounce.

It could be a visualization thing. I actually visualize hitting the upper part of the ball. Now, where I actually hit the ball, I don't know.

However, I have yet to attempt what tennis_pr0 said. I believe I was able to kick the ball up high before BECAUSE of leaving my wrist back far enough to have the racquet face underneath the ball, thereby "gripping" the bottom.

Here is a good video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNvD7-KbcEA

Add: Posted a video of the same guy as GuyClinch, interested.

 

[Funbun]

GuyClinch, sorry, I must have worded that paragraph a tad wrong; I understand that I shouldn't force my pronation. It's been stated well enough in previous posts already.

What I'm currently concerned about is WHERE I contact the ball, not how I pronate and/or supinate my arm. Thanks to the previous posts, I realized that this pronation is as natural as pronating while throwing a ball.

My point was that I think I was able to get a good topspin (and kick) because I opened my racquet face due forcing my wrist back in effort to have a more accented pronation/"wrist snap", NOT because of forcing the pronation/"wrist snap" itself.

Your video already reinforces my point; when performing the drills, his racquet face is slightly facing underneath the ball. I think I was able to get loads of topspin because I forced my wrist back, opening my racquet face up, despite its potential to hurt my wrist and/or arm. However, the person in the video was much more natural with opening the racquet face, as opposed to how I used to do it.

Also, mucat, I believe it IS a visualization thing. However, I believe in reality, I was hitting the ball rather flat face, thus my serves had less topspin.

 

[mucat]

More good videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQK-S45UG1s&feature=fvsr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQunzY8AyEQ
FYB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYMiHfflH0o
Here is a TW memeber.

 

[Benefactor]

I've been experimenting with the kick serve or about a year now, and just recently I lost my kick. My serve will have the trajectory of a kick serve, yet bounce like a flat serve. No, it's not because of the balls.

However, I remember the key difference from right now and back then was my focus on the wrist snap. I noticed that when I intentionally supinated and pronated my hand forward and to the left (lefty here), I would get massive kickers 80% of the time.

I recently had a match and I was rather frustrated with why it didn't kick up on my opponent. To make matters worse, I double faulted many times attempting to serve, almost always out ahead of the opposing service box. When I did get it in, no kick. It bounced like a flat, no matter how much knee bend/shoulder rotation/racquet speed I put on it. I even assured my toss was further to my right.

Thus, to clear my confusion, is the wrist snap one of the more crucial defining factors of a kick serve? Back then, I laid my wrist way back, then brought it forward in a fast pronate/supinate motion a little after I made contact with the ball. Last match, I didn't.

Can someone please clarify this? I hear many contradictory advice on the wrist snap, some people stating it's a "natural motion", some people saying "it's all in the wrist snap". What's correct??

The kick serve has nothing to do with any special kind of wrist snap. If you have a decent amount of racquet speed, the problem is most likely that you are catching too much of the ball and are effectively hitting the ball to much like a first serve. You'll get enough topspin to get the ball to dip, but not to pop off the court.

 

[papa]

I think your really overthinking this. Think of pronation as an additional power source - and your swing path as determining the spin.

Thus for a flat serve your swinging straight at the ball (the back of it) - so bam alot of power going forward. For a kicker your swinging what feels like almost straight UP at the ball. (To really get a good tricky KICK motion you want to swing up and think about trying to hit the left side of the ball). And for a slice serve your racquet is traveling towards the net post..(or even more to the right then that)..

The serve doctor (the Nick Bolleteri coach) explains pronation well and how you can serve with and without it. (Of course without it -what he calls "long arming" the ball is poor form). But its very possible.

Anyway I think your on the wrong track if your trying to time or tweak your pronation for the kick serve. I used to think like this and it technically is probably going on (like a late pronation for a slice serve or an earlier one for a flat serve) but mentally speaking its a road to disaster I feel.

Once you get the pronation motion down you just change your swing trajectory for the various swings. Your body and mind kinda take care of the rest. And yes you pronate on every serve - near as I can tell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9yWA9Ho73M

I posted that video before but I think its instructive especially the early shots - notice how he is swinging up at the ball while keeping his rear shoulder back longer then you would on a flat serve. That's key as well..don't let that back shoulder come around to early.. Its much like throwing a ball high into the air..

Yes, your serve here is exactly what I'm talking about. I like everything about it, keep up the good work.

 

[gzhpcu]

Look at the swing path and pronation for a kick serve here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/master_principles/torques.php

 

[sureshs]

It always amazes me that whenever this subject comes up nobody ever mentions the height of the arc on the serve. The ball has to get high to bounce high. I don't care how much spin you get on a ball, if the ball doesn't get good height, its simply not going to bounce high.

All engineers are familiar with vectors and you cannot transform a horizontal vector into a vertical one - just against the laws of physics. So the only way to get good height on your bounce is to get the ball up. Topspin helps but you can put all the topspin on a ball and unless you get the ball up, it just won't have the vertical element after it bounces.

I would argue that you cannot put much topspin on the ball unless you are giving the ball good height.

 

[LeeD]

??? Huh ????
I can serve a hard topspin serve that lands on MY service line....lots of topspin, not much pace.... oh, you meant IN on the opposition's court !!
My first topspin serve, usually clears net by 2', maybe 85mph, arced maybe 9' high at my service line.
My normal twist out wide duece serve, me lefty, when going for depth and not angle, usually clears the net by 4', arc'ed maybe 12' high when it was going over my service line... or before clearing net, maybe 65mph.

 

[mucat]

I would argue that you cannot put much topspin on the ball unless you are giving the ball good height.

I don't see how the height of the trajectory will limit the amount of topspin.

 

[LeeD]

I think he meant the ball lands IN the opponent's service box.
I'm pretty sure I can absolutely crush a topspin serve that never gets higher than 8', but it goes into MY service box.:shock::shock:

 

[mucat]

If it is just a topspin serve, you can hit with a relatively flat trajectory and still with lot of topspin. Just like topspin groundstrokes, the trajectory doesn't have to be high.

 

[LeeD]

Subject on this thread is for the KICK serve.
As such, the KICK has to be high, or it gets pummelled by the returner.
I've faced twist/kicks as high as a foot over my head, and backed by surprise directions and placements, I cannot pummel the return..:shock:
I'm 5'11".
And on hot days, I can twist about 6' or slightly above, at the baseline, even now at 60 years old. I need a high arc for those, a long court, and depth. Of course, a slow mover 65mph serve.

 

[mucat]

Subject on this thread is for the KICK serve.
As such, the KICK has to be high, or it gets pummelled by the returner.
I've faced twist/kicks as high as a foot over my head, and backed by surprise directions and placements, I cannot pummel the return..:shock:
I'm 5'11".
And on hot days, I can twist about 6' or slightly above, at the baseline, even now at 60 years old. I need a high arc for those, a long court, and depth. Of course, a slow mover 65mph serve.

I know this thread is about kick serve and good height is required for the high bounce and also allow enough space and time for the curve action in the air to form. Anyway, I do not like on the receiving end of a good kick serve. I can never tell which way the ball will go, even if I know, then I have to guess how high the ball will bounce, which is not the same every time, and then the pace might be different every time. I rather face a slice serve or flat serve.

But,

I would argue that you cannot put much topspin on the ball unless you are giving the ball good height.

This I don't understand. I can hit a crappy kick serve with not enough height yet has enough topspin. Those will just jump right into the opponent's strike zone...

 

[sureshs]

I don't see how the height of the trajectory will limit the amount of topspin.

Since you have to hit up on the ball from below for the second kick serve, how do you put maximum spin without also making it arc upwards? There is a topspin slice kind of serve where you can hit over the ball, but I am not talking about that.

 

[papa]

I would argue that you cannot put much topspin on the ball unless you are giving the ball good height.

Well, you can argue all you want but unfortunately it will have to be someone else, because I agree with you. The more topspin the more net clearance you need - just like you said. I'm not sure what I might have said to lead you in a different direction - sorry.

 

[LeeD]

Twist/kicks, you swing fast and upwards, but you can vary the height or arc of the ball by the face of your racket.
If you close the face so it barely brushes the ball, the swingpath is still upwards, but the ball flies almost straight out towards the opponent, making for low arc.
If you open the face so it contacts more fully, the ball flies upwares more for sure, even so it arcs and lands on the baseline.
But you can adjust swingpath, hitting face, and swingspeed to adjust path of the ball AND spin of the ball.
??

 

[mucat]

Since you have to hit up on the ball from below for the second kick serve, how do you put maximum spin without also making it arc upwards? There is a topspin slice kind of serve where you can hit over the ball, but I am not talking about that.

LeeD explained here:

If you close the face so it barely brushes the ball, the swingpath is still upwards, but the ball flies almost straight out towards the opponent, making for low arc.

Like I said before in this same thread (I think). The concept of topspin is the same for serve and groundstroke. The ball doesn't know you are hitting underhand or overhead. The amount of topspin is not determined by where you hit the ball. It is determined by how fast the racket hit across the ball.

Personally, if I hit really hard. I can hit a serve that almost look like it is fly horizontal at maybe about maybe 6-7 ft (don't quote me on this) in height, and then it will break suddenly after it pass the net. I have players calling my serve out before it bounce and then the ball dive right in and he had to correct the call. And a pro serve will probably has a lot more action than that. Crazy.