Confusing "Wrist Snap" Concept on Kick Serve

[LeeD]

A pro's kick serve should have more action.
First of all, contact point is about mid 8' off the ground, slightly higher for the taller guys.
Pros swing faster, you'll agree?
So on kick serves, maximum height of the ball during it's forward journey is well over 9', probably closer to 11".
That arc, the ball going IN the service box, coupled with increased swing speed, means high jumping kick serve.
But as I said, the CONDITIONS have more than an equal say in how high your ball bounces. And light balls, coupled with hot weather, abrasive court, have lots to say.

 

[papa]

So on kick serves, maximum height of the ball during it's forward journey is well over 9', probably closer to 11".

I'd even add a couple of feet to this - maybe in the range of 15' but it does vary with players. When you get a chance to see these guys its amazing just how high the ball goes before it dives down.

 

[LeeD]

Wow, 15' high at the zenith!!
That's more in line with my twists, but mine move thru molasses at 55mph.
I'd hope the pros hit twists a little faster.
Last year, played a few Div1 singles players. All could twist up over my head. I'm 5'11". Didn't seem 15' at the zenith on their side of the court to me.
I'm pretty sure, my twists, if hit deep, zenith around 11-13', if I"m moving in to volley, and hitting really a slow mover. Add TWO feet to that? That's almost a lob serve.

 

[sureshs]

Well, you can argue all you want but unfortunately it will have to be someone else, because I agree with you. The more topspin the more net clearance you need - just like you said. I'm not sure what I might have said to lead you in a different direction - sorry.

Me neither. I think the confusion is that in your post, you talked about height and topspin, and I said they go together, and then someone disputed that, and you thought I was disputing you.

 

[sureshs]

Twist/kicks, you swing fast and upwards, but you can vary the height or arc of the ball by the face of your racket.
If you close the face so it barely brushes the ball, the swingpath is still upwards, but the ball flies almost straight out towards the opponent, making for low arc.

That would mean you are hitting over the ball, and it does happen for top-slice. But I don't see many pros hitting a kick serve by closing the racquet face.

 

[papa]

Wow, 15' high at the zenith!!
That's more in line with my twists, but mine move thru molasses at 55mph.
I'd hope the pros hit twists a little faster.
Last year, played a few Div1 singles players. All could twist up over my head. I'm 5'11". Didn't seem 15' at the zenith on their side of the court to me.
I'm pretty sure, my twists, if hit deep, zenith around 11-13', if I"m moving in to volley, and hitting really a slow mover. Add TWO feet to that? That's almost a lob serve.

Yep, very high. Know keep in mind that the top of the arc is around their "own" service line so when it goes over the net its much lower. Some of these things can vary, as you know, from player to player so its hard to give exact figures. However, one thing is for certain, without height you not going to get much height after the bounce. Without good bounce height the twist or top spin serve is not very effective.

 

[papa]

Me neither. I think the confusion is that in your post, you talked about height and topspin, and I said they go together, and then someone disputed that, and you thought I was disputing you.

Yeah, ok. Some of these threads get going and often we're all saying the same thing but using different terms so it does get confusing who said what. Other things are hard to measure like spin, pace, height, etc. so many times I think some are guessing. One thing that I've noticed for a long time is that for instance on height, those that play indoors or seen a lot of good tennis at court level seem to have a better feel for it. Watching some of this stuff on TV or even from up in the stands, its difficult to get an appreciation for some of this because of the angles.

Anyway, I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[LeeD]

Well, I've certainly played against more than 20 top players who can hit kicks/twists up over my head, but I'd not think their zenith was quite that high. Not 15' anyways.
I know mine don't get that high, unless I slow the ballspeed down to easily crushable levels (by the returner).
Since impact point for someone my height (5'11") is maybe just under 8' off the ground, I don't think I can arc it up to 15' and still get some pace (hopefully 65mph) while getting it short enough to make the service court.
There's a vid circulating around of Fed aceing someone up the T, and that zenith is not all that high, although the bounce height is maybe 6', something I've seen quite often when playing against 5.5 level players... the height, not exactly Federer's placments.

 

[Funbun]

If this is the case... how DO you get more height on the ball?

I was playing today, and I had a mix of dead and rather new balls leftover from a tournament. I really enjoyed hitting with the new tourney balls, since they had a ton more spin and power on them (or as it seemed). However, what was frustrating me was that many of these balls would appear to bite the ground and launch forward, not kick up.

Is there some way to kick these balls up? (badly worded) I have to say that my serve improved quite a bit, mainly because I had much more leg drive this time. I'm really trying to transfer my upward energy from my legs into brushing up the ball, but it's not working! Is it having to do with toss? Swingpath?

 

[LeeD]

Probably a combination of ALL !
You KNOW the zenith height has to be higher than any topspin second serve.
You KNOW you have to swing upwards and out, with a fair amount of rackethead speed.
You know a higher bounce occurs during hot weather, abrasive courts, new bouncy balls, and of course, correct technique.
You know taller players have an advantage, as their strikepoint is higher to begin with, so they can hit higher bouncers with more pace than us short guys.
I"m 5'11".

 

[Funbun]

Then I guess these balls are too dead and it's too cold outside. =/

Man, it's kinda disappointing to have a kick serve look so great but bounce so low.

 

[papa]

Then I guess these balls are too dead and it's too cold outside. =/

Man, it's kinda disappointing to have a kick serve look so great but bounce so low.

You know you can get some of those Penn Coach Ball at TW and they are about 50 cents each - they last quite a while. Trying to serve with old balls is crazy and your doing yourself a disfavor by using them. Actually, even hitting with old balls leaves a lot to be desired. Cost of tennis balls hasn't changed much in twenty years so consider them a bargin.

 

[charliefedererer]

Then I guess these balls are too dead and it's too cold outside. =/

Man, it's kinda disappointing to have a kick serve look so great but bounce so low.

If it's cold outside use pressureless balls.

The usual rule of thumb is that it's not as good to practice serves with pressureless balls because they have a stiffer wall, and so there is more shock to your arm.

But as the temperature falls, the pressure in normal pressurized balls goes down, and they have a poor bounce. Then, pressureless balls are definitely better.

 

[papa]

If it's cold outside use pressureless balls.

The usual rule of thumb is that it's not as good to practice serves with pressureless balls because they have a stiffer wall, and so there is more shock to your arm.

But as the temperature falls, the pressure in normal pressurized balls goes down, and they have a poor bounce. Then, pressureless balls are definitely better.

I don't like to see anyone practicing with those balls - they just seem so heavy but I don't play in cold weather because I don't have to. You live there so you would be a better judge.

They (pressureless balls) might be ok for a ball machine but as far as I'm concerned that's about all. Helps to have players try and pick up the colors also (green or orange) but most can see that from twenty feet away anyway. They aren't exactly cheap to buy, get that grungy look and seem to get heavier with age - at least thats my experience.

 

[LeeD]

Pressureless balls for HIGH ALTITUDES ??