Different toss for first and for second serve?
- Thread starter toth
- Start date
Todd Hicks
Rookie
You must experiment enough before you can determine what's best. More importantly, just make sure you get your 2nd serve in without worrying about velocity.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Different toss? Absolutely.
It is a common myth, perpetuated by many players and couches, that all ball tosses should be the same. Many will, mistakenly, use Sampras as an example of a pro player who used the same toss for all serves. His 2nd serve toss was usually significantly different from his 1st serve toss. Many high-level amateur players will use 2 or 3 different tosses for various serves.
http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/ss/same-serve-toss-different-spins.htm#step2
EDIT: Link above no longer valid. Archived page:
https://web.archive.org/web/2016031.../ss/same-serve-toss-different-spins.htm#step2
It is a common myth, perpetuated by many players and couches, that all ball tosses should be the same. Many will, mistakenly, use Sampras as an example of a pro player who used the same toss for all serves. His 2nd serve toss was usually significantly different from his 1st serve toss. Many high-level amateur players will use 2 or 3 different tosses for various serves.
http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/ss/same-serve-toss-different-spins.htm#step2
EDIT: Link above no longer valid. Archived page:
https://web.archive.org/web/2016031.../ss/same-serve-toss-different-spins.htm#step2
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D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
When learning your different serves, absolutely toss differently (locations over your head) for flat, slice, top/kick... once you master it that way, you can refine your toss and body mechanics to try hitting all three with the same toss... but honestly by the time you get to that point, you'll be a 5.0+, and will be able to distinguish if you need to or not.
in general, for me, there's always a combination of varying my toss location, and adjusting my body to the toss... imo the more important thing to train/focus on is have the fine motor skills to consistently toss, and adjust where you toss to by a few inches... at will.
fuzz nation
G.O.A.T.
Honestly I think the answer depends on how you serve (or how you're trying to serve).
Why are you asking about different tosses? Is it because you're trying for different types of serves, have you heard conflicting advice, or something else?
Becouse i know different tosses would be correct but I have difficulties with it.
Big difficulties.
SinjinCooper
Hall of Fame
Ideally, a high-level player wants one toss for flat first serves hard to the right hand side of the box, body serves, and slice first serves to the left hand side of the box. Then one different toss for all second serves -- where it goes would depend on what kind of second serve you hit. So two tosses in total. I recommend avoiding kick serves entirely and focusing on slices, but at least avoid kickers until about 4.5. If you don't have really dialed in serve mechanics, a kick serve is worse than useless, just giving your opponent a sitter to start the point off.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
probably ok with topspin (agree, avoid the kicker - but then again if you can hit top, the kicker is a few inches away)...
personally i learned top and kick (consistently) before slice,... whichever way you go, either is a sitter if you can't consistently get it in & consistently place it (ie. to the bh wing).
even at 4.5 most are not crushing bh returns....
but if you're putting it right in the middle of the box, everyone is gonna run around the bh and hit a fh... or you can't place it to the fh occasionally i'm just gonna move to the bh side as soon as you toss it up...
fuzz nation
G.O.A.T.
I often encourage the kids I work with (adults, too) to practice and experiment with their toss at home - we don't need to be standing on a court to get more comfortable with producing a consistent toss into an imaginary strike zone above our heads. You may find good guidance with some YouTube instructional videos, but you might just find your own way to a consistent toss with some experiments.
There's no specific right or wrong. If the toss basically works, then it's probably right for you as long as it doesn't put you in a bad position to actually swing at the ball. Noodle around with different ways of holding the ball and maybe even compare starting with a bent elbow vs. a straight elbow on your tossing arm.
Once the toss is locating consistently for you, there's another variation you may need to work with depending on your style of serve. A "flatter" serve will typically work well for many players with the toss located out in front of the server toward the intended target so that a straight swing path will send it in the right direction.
Switching to more of a sidespin or slice serve can require more angular contact, so a righty server will be more comfortable locating the toss a little more to the right. That allows the ball to come off the mildly angled racquet face a little to the left of the racquets swing path, but toward the intended service box.
Hopefully these thoughts are pointed in the right direction for you.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
note about practicing your toss at home...
when i tell someone this, they just stand rigid, and toss... after just a bit of practice, works great
but when you ask them to toss and load, that's where things go wrong (ie. kinda a rub your belly & pat your head moment)...
depending on the serve, you're asking them to:
* step up (eg. pinpoint)
* bend their knees
* load their hip
* load their shoulders
etc...
but more often they practice it 5x, then stop cuz it's boring
5263
G.O.A.T.
shouldn't be too big a deal. mainly its just about tossing it a bit more in front if you want to go big or just a few inches back for a kicker. Most serves should just be your std topslice with a very std toss.
Yes, your toss will be different for 1st and 2nd serve, given that you are trying to put more spin on the 2nd serve. I doubt this will make your toss worse. It may seem worse, however.
What specifically are you having trouble with toss? In general, you want to release the ball around the shoulder height. Want to avoid "palming" the ball. Personally, I find it helpful to keep my head up and look at the spot I want to place the ball in the air. Some people like to trace the ball with their eyes. Sometimes, it can be a tight neck and/or upper back muscle that prevent you from having a smooth tossing arm action biomechanically.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Good post for the most part but 'i disagree with the release height you suggest. That ball release will either send the ball away from you or will put the ball straight up. Despite what many players believe, the toss should not travel in a vertical path -- it actually arcs back toward the server or toward the opposite shoulder. The release point is normally somewhere above chin level. For Roger & Pete (below), it appears that the release occurs at eye level or hairline level. Note the considerable arc on Pete's toss. Roger might have even more arc than this on his tosses.
(Apologies to John Yandell. Seems that the Sampras GIF originally came from his TP site)
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@junbumkim
I generally find it better to get my eyes to the expected toss/contact location even before the ball is release. Do not recommend following or tracking the ball trajectory up and down with your eyes. It might work for some but, I believe, that it is better that the head and eyes are a "quiet" was possible when the ball (toss) is released.
I generally find it better to get my eyes to the expected toss/contact location even before the ball is release. Do not recommend following or tracking the ball trajectory up and down with your eyes. It might work for some but, I believe, that it is better that the head and eyes are a "quiet" was possible when the ball (toss) is released.
Crocodile
G.O.A.T.
I tend to believe that it's best to make your toss diferences in a minor way rather than a huge difference. I don't think making a large change from a flat to say a slice all that necessary because your main objective is to have a reliable serve. Even with the kick, if you change it too much you will get to the point where it won't be effective anyway. Think about it this way, say you want to do a kicker and you decide to put the ball way over your left and behind you then sure you will get more kick, but it will be slower and your body will be stressed more and possibly cause problems. Lot of people misunderstand matters with the kick serve. A slow but lateral moving kick serve will be easy meet for your opponent. A tougher kick serve to return is one that moves less laterally but fizzes more and rises quickly up at your opponent and you don't need to alter your ball toss as much to achieve this result, just a little bit of an adjustment is sufficient.
Crocodile
G.O.A.T.
Depends how tall you are and arm span, but the less you need to vary it the better, so I'll go 10cm. You will also have the benefit of being able to hide your intentions better giving your opponents less of a chance to read your serve.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Are you still referring to the difference between the 1st serve and the 2nd serves tosses? There will be considerably more variation than this as seen in the link in post #5. According to that article, the difference for Sampras was 60+ cm. For Federer, the diff from 1st serve to 2nd serve was more like 90 cm. Similar toss variations are noted with other servers in that article a well.
Now, if you don't hit any topspin or kick serves, the toss variation can be less than this. A flat serve and a slice serve can, conceivably, hit with a similar, if not the same, toss. Or, if both of your serves are tospin-slice serve variations (with 1st serve somewhat faster with less spin), then your toss might not vary as much as the Sampras or Federer examples above. However, I believe, the toss variation will probably still be more than the 10 cm that you suggest.
I recall some ball toss data from late in 2015 in a match between Federer and Djokovic. This data, along with some (HawkEye?) graphics, was shown during one or more of their meetings that year. I believe that I saw it for either their Cincinnati meeting or their subsequent meeting at the US Open. @WildVolley also recalls seeing it at one of their 2 WTF meetings that year.
That data/graphic showed quite a bit more than variation than 10 cm. I believe that this data was for 1st serves only. It revealed a toss variation for Federer of 19 or 20 cm (I don't recall which). The toss variation for Djokovic was nearly the same -- 18 or 19 cm. I'm not certain if this much variation was intentional or if it was a natural variation. The point is that, if these guys vary their 1st serve toss by nearly 20 cm, is it reasonable to believe that our own variation would be less than 10 cm?
sphinx780
Hall of Fame
Here's my thought: At 3.5 with admittedly big issues with your toss, it's good to understand that over time, adjusting your tosses for different serves will be a good addition.
Sounds to me like right now, you should focus on toss mechanics to get one consistent toss. When you get to a point that you feel your toss is something you can count on most of the time and are comfortable with it, then consider changing your toss for different serves. If you feel your toss is wildly inconsistent and you can't trust it for either serve, I don't think working on a few different tosses will do you any good, it may only delay you putting the basics in place to be able to count on your toss. No need to get ahead of yourself. Master one skill then add on to it after.
Sounds to me like right now, you should focus on toss mechanics to get one consistent toss. When you get to a point that you feel your toss is something you can count on most of the time and are comfortable with it, then consider changing your toss for different serves. If you feel your toss is wildly inconsistent and you can't trust it for either serve, I don't think working on a few different tosses will do you any good, it may only delay you putting the basics in place to be able to count on your toss. No need to get ahead of yourself. Master one skill then add on to it after.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Note that many 3.0 and 3.5 players do not have particularly good control of their toss. Have even seen this with some 4.0 players. Some of these players will hit different types of of serves -- dictated by their erratic or unpredictable toss placement. Not an ideal situation. Better to have the toss placement dictated by the type of serve you wish to hit instead.
Good idea to work on developing 1 or 2 consistent toss placements. However, I have no problem with hitting different types of serve, within reason, for a variable/unpredictable toss placement. But the server should identify a range of suitable toss placements. If the toss is wild and outside of this "suitable" range, they should not attempt to hit the toss.
sphinx780
Hall of Fame
I can see your point and an in person assessment would really help dictate the first steps a player needs to take. Maybe that would have been a better response. Op - if you have the means and option for a lesson from a teaching pro. It may be worth your time to get an in person diagnosis and tips.
I still ride the philosophy that you work on one serve and toss until there is a reasonable consistency. Chasing bad tosses is a surefire way to injury and Imo can be exacerbated by trying to determine serve type on the fly based on where the toss ends up.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Chasing bad tosses may or may not increase the likelihood of injury. However, it can develop into a bad habit that might be difficult to suppress or unlearn in the future.
Bagumbawalla
G.O.A.T.
Well, it all depends on what you are trying to do. You can hit a slice first serve, if you want too, and follow with a similar second serve- but it you hit a moderately flat, hard, fast first serve and a topspin kick second serve, the execution will be noticeably different. Up to a point on the learning curve, from beginner to about 3.5, maybe, you will not find a lot of difference between a player's first and second- except that the second serve is a "slower" version of the first. As they improve, their second serve should become (among other things), a safe, consistent, reliable, shot with good net clearance, that allows them to hit it hard and still have the ball dip down into the court. It will not be safe, consistent or reliable right off the bat. When first learning this type of second serve- at first it will feel awkward, counterintuitive, and frustrating.
It is not all that difficult to put topspin on a ground strokes- you just hit through the ball from low to high- but how do you hit "low to high" on a service ball up there over your head? There is a basic shift in positioning the ball (different than our "flatter" first serve) that allows you to do this. This involves tossing the ball less out-front, and more above your head. The swing path is also different- similar to the difference between a flat-drive groundstroke and a topspin lob (but tilted over by 90 degrees)! There are lots of useful videos out there to help you along.
It is not all that difficult to put topspin on a ground strokes- you just hit through the ball from low to high- but how do you hit "low to high" on a service ball up there over your head? There is a basic shift in positioning the ball (different than our "flatter" first serve) that allows you to do this. This involves tossing the ball less out-front, and more above your head. The swing path is also different- similar to the difference between a flat-drive groundstroke and a topspin lob (but tilted over by 90 degrees)! There are lots of useful videos out there to help you along.
WildVolley
Legend
I do remember that graphic at the WTF - I think it was the year before last. We don't know how much variation is due to natural imprecision and how much was intentional, but I believe even the top pros vary the toss some. During that WTF graphic, it was mentioned that Djokovic had the most consistent toss during the tournament and Federer was second. Federer has a very grooved toss as I've seen him hit a serve with his eyes closed (on a video).
Rec players can learn to toss the ball with a high level of precision, but it takes a fair amount of practice for most. Almost all pros have a fairly pronounced toss difference for a second serve, as mentioned above, it is to put the ball in a position in which it is easier to get more vertical racquet-head speed through contact. I actually think that some pros may train to hit a harder serve off of a kick/topspin serve toss rather than the other way around as it is almost always safe for pros to expect more topspin on a second serve and less speed. Some pros will pound a second serve with a lot of pace to trick the opponent, especially if they are up 40-love or 40-15 at the time on their second serve.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
First you identify the serving technique that you are using, Waiter's Tray (50%?), high level (20%) or other (30%)? The largest percentage technique in use for average players is the WT. Not realizing or acknowledging this situation I refer to as The Tennis Serve Nuthouse.
There are very few instructions on how to do a WT serve. I have not seen one description for how to get spin on the ball for WT. See Pat Dougherty, Hammer that Serve, Youtube.
For high level serving, the usual 2nd serve is a kick serve. To get topspin for a kick or top spin serve the racket must have much more rise while the strings are in contact with the ball. High speed videos (240 fps) show that impact occurs about roughly 5 milliseconds before the racket has reached its peak height and estimating, 4-6"? below the racket peak. It is a clear signature for a kick or top spin serve that the racket is seen to rise much more after impact. The ball must be struck lower in the final racket path toward the ball. This is done by impacting when the rapidly increasing forearm-to-racket angle is smaller than for a slice or flat serve, they are impacted much closer to racket peak. The arm may also be more vertical for a kick serve.
Kick. Notice the forearm-to-racket angle and arm angle. Notice racket height after impact.
Slice. Notice same angles. Notice racket height after impact.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ve-wrist-movement-video.557005/#post-10090644
The instruction to 'toss the ball behind your head' for a kick serve is very misleading. Most players move forward between toss release and impact and their heads go forward and to the side. If you 'toss the ball behind your head' you will limit your forward motion and the motion is too up and down and not enough forward. Toss the ball to wherever you are going to impact it as determined by your service motion. Service motion comes first, toss second. View videos from the side of the ball's trajectory to see this forward motion. There is also head motion to the side for the kick serve, examine that with camera behind the server viewing along the ball's trajectory.
There are very few instructions on how to do a WT serve. I have not seen one description for how to get spin on the ball for WT. See Pat Dougherty, Hammer that Serve, Youtube.
For high level serving, the usual 2nd serve is a kick serve. To get topspin for a kick or top spin serve the racket must have much more rise while the strings are in contact with the ball. High speed videos (240 fps) show that impact occurs about roughly 5 milliseconds before the racket has reached its peak height and estimating, 4-6"? below the racket peak. It is a clear signature for a kick or top spin serve that the racket is seen to rise much more after impact. The ball must be struck lower in the final racket path toward the ball. This is done by impacting when the rapidly increasing forearm-to-racket angle is smaller than for a slice or flat serve, they are impacted much closer to racket peak. The arm may also be more vertical for a kick serve.
Kick. Notice the forearm-to-racket angle and arm angle. Notice racket height after impact.
Slice. Notice same angles. Notice racket height after impact.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ve-wrist-movement-video.557005/#post-10090644
The instruction to 'toss the ball behind your head' for a kick serve is very misleading. Most players move forward between toss release and impact and their heads go forward and to the side. If you 'toss the ball behind your head' you will limit your forward motion and the motion is too up and down and not enough forward. Toss the ball to wherever you are going to impact it as determined by your service motion. Service motion comes first, toss second. View videos from the side of the ball's trajectory to see this forward motion. There is also head motion to the side for the kick serve, examine that with camera behind the server viewing along the ball's trajectory.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
This is what I believe is typical for a high level kick serve. The toss release is not over your head, your head moves forward and sideways. Toly pictures from rare overhead Fuzzy Yellow Balls overhead videos.
I don't know anything about strokes during learning progressions. I don't believe that there are widely accepted descriptions of lesser strokes as there are for the high level strokes.
The body of the above server at impact for the kick serve is not sidewise at impact, it is angled more to the side than the slice serve. I also use angles with reference to the ball's trajectory otherwise the ad and deuce courts are too different.
To see head position and forward motion view videos taken from the side of the ball's trajectory. Looking along the baseline is a little less accurate, but pretty accurate.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The instruction to "Toss the ball back over you head" is misleading for a high level kick serve.
How should it be worded so that your additional explanation paragraph isn't necessary for the average player?
How should it be worded so that your additional explanation paragraph isn't necessary for the average player?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
We have different views.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@drdoctormd
Chas, you need to keep in mind that the head is not in the same place when you start the serve (and as you release the ball) as when you make contact with the ball. "Toss the ball behind or over your head" is a bit confusing, perhaps even misleading. Does behind your head mean back toward the the back fence or does it mean to the left of your body wrt your position on the baseline? I prefer to indicate that the ball is tossed/lifted to the left using the court as a reference rather than using the orientation of the body as a reference.
The ball is tossed to the left (for a righty) of the original position of the head. However, the head/upper body also moves to the left (and slightly forward) to facilitate the hitting shoulder coming over the top -- for the shoulder over shoulder cartwheel action. At contact, the head of the server is pretty much under the ball.
Chas, you need to keep in mind that the head is not in the same place when you start the serve (and as you release the ball) as when you make contact with the ball. "Toss the ball behind or over your head" is a bit confusing, perhaps even misleading. Does behind your head mean back toward the the back fence or does it mean to the left of your body wrt your position on the baseline? I prefer to indicate that the ball is tossed/lifted to the left using the court as a reference rather than using the orientation of the body as a reference.
The ball is tossed to the left (for a righty) of the original position of the head. However, the head/upper body also moves to the left (and slightly forward) to facilitate the hitting shoulder coming over the top -- for the shoulder over shoulder cartwheel action. At contact, the head of the server is pretty much under the ball.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Does the description "toss the ball back over your head" apply to a high level kick serve?
The last time that you heard those words on the forum or in instructions were there qualifications that 'back over your head' applied only to beginners or that this was 'stage 3' of a learning progression?
What is the usage of this sentence in your opinion?
A common serving flaw in many servers is that they go too much up and not enough forward. It seems feasible to me that some percentage of those servers may have been misled by very simple word descriptions and never considered studying a video. I know that was the case for me for decades with many word descriptions.
There are progressions where the student serves from their knees with little forward motions. And you can get a very effective kick serve for some tennis levels by not going forward much. There are many unknown serving techniques that 'toss the ball back over your head' might apply to. Can you find a high level kick server that tosses back over the head?
What do you and drd think of the sister instruction to 'hit the ball as high as you can reach'?
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The head and upper body move to the right relative to the court in the picture. You meant 'to the right' I guess. In this serve the head moved forward about 3 feet or 1 meter.
An Issue. But if the head moves to the right relative to the court in that picture, how does the ball move right to left relative to the moving head and eyes? I don't think that is a problem but the court's right-left and the right-left of the rotating body should be considered. The ad and deuce side serves are different.
Does the server see the ball moving to the 'left' as his head rotates left and moves to the right relative to the court?
In my opinion for stroke analysis, using the ball's trajectory is a better reference for direction than the court lines or the rotating body's right-left.
There are variations in kick serve techniques. How much do they differ from Frank Salazar's kick serve shown here? I use the Salazar kick serve technique because the ideal overhead camera views are available thanks to Fuzzy Yellow Balls great videos and Toly's great displays.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
No, I mean't to the left. What picture are you referring to? I am using left and right relative to the server's perspective (particularly at contact). This is the same reference used by the following article that discusses differences between 1st and 2nd serve tosses:
http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/ss/same-serve-toss-different-spins.htm
EDIT: Link above no longer valid. Arhived page:
https://web.archive.org/web/2016031.../serve/ss/same-serve-toss-different-spins.htm
Don't understand. The ball's trajectory with reference to what???
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D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
this tip took me 15y to "discover"
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I posted the picture. The server's head location moved to the right and about 3 feet into the court from toss to impact. The server's head rotated to the left from toss release to impact.
The ball's trajectory is the reference direction, better because it does not change relative to the stroke motions for ad and deuce sides. Also, the hand path, racket path, head path, etc can all be referenced to the ball's trajectory.
Problem with court reference direction is that ad & deuce sides are different.
Problem with body/head right-left is that the body & head rotate for example, from toss to impact.
Those problems don't exist when using the ball's trajectory as a reference direction.
There might be issues with the server's perception because his head moves and rotates?
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Vertical of all body parts and the racket is 'as high as you can'. Clearly misleading for a high level serve.
Look at a server at impact from behind and from the side. Are there any angles?
Google: tennis serve impact pictures
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@Chas Tennis
You still haven't said which picture you are talking about. You seem to be making this more complicated than it needs to be. When I read Jeff Cooper's article (Tennis.About.com), his left-right designation made perfect sense to me (particularly in context). OTOH, your description did not.
You still haven't said which picture you are talking about. You seem to be making this more complicated than it needs to be. When I read Jeff Cooper's article (Tennis.About.com), his left-right designation made perfect sense to me (particularly in context). OTOH, your description did not.
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mntlblok
Hall of Fame
Wow. Can't believe I've never seen that article. Gotta be one of the best I've ever seen on the serve. Time to work on my "lean".
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Kick serve picture. Head movement and rotation.
I believe that may be the instructor with an excellent kick serve that does not move forward very much for impact. ?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Kick serve picture. Head movement and rotation.
I believe that may be the instructor with an excellent kick serve that does not move forward very much for impact. ?
Not sure what your last statement/question is trying to say. Who said that elite kick servers do not move forward for a kick serve?
With this view of the server, as well as a rear view of the server, it still makes sense to me to say that the toss moves forward and from the right to the left. Right side of the picture to the left side of the picture. Or the right side of the server's overall position to the left side of the server's position.
As I indicated previously, the server gets his head underneath the toss at impact.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
You'd think that. But it's amazing how many service winners I get off my slow loopy topspin second serve that moves a bit right to left then hits the court and bounces up straight or slightly to the right. The ball is changing directions and moving a lot vertically without a ton of pace. It's amazing how many 3.5's foul up that return despite it looking all the world like a sitter. But a lot of vertical movement with a touch of lateral movement can throw lower level players off. I'm sure 4.5's would eat it for breakfast (although when I played in a club doubles tourney against 4.5-5.0 players they still could really hit it that hard, they just directed it to the side).
So I'd say, work on a kicker. It'll only get better as you get more accurate with your toss and more fluid with your mechanics. It requires a toss more over your head, some leg action upwards and a swing across and upwards into the ball (like from 8 -> 2 O'clock). Even if low powered, at your level, guys will have some issues with it. Especially if its substantially different from your first serve.
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
From those pics, looks like maybe a generalization could be made that the toss moves to the left and the head moves forward and to the right.
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mntlblok
Hall of Fame
Nothing about that particularly interested me. Just hoping to maybe help clear up what seemed to be a misunderstanding. Seemed one guy was talking about the ball and one about the head, and maybe one talking about looking from the front and one from the back. I'm all about harmony and stuff.
But, I've also never thought about where the head or body goes, but after reading the cool article in post #5, it's becoming a "little" more interesting. Learning that Sampras tossed farther to the left than most for all his serves possibly being why folks thought he hit all his serves from the same toss is absolutely fascinating - to me.
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
You may well be right, but have you looked at this article? http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/ss/same-serve-toss-different-spins.htm#step2
