Elvis, Gasquet, and GOATs: Why the How Matters More than the What

Zoid

Hall of Fame
As the tennis season approaches its zenith heading into the second week of Wimbledon, I’ve been lucky enough to be thrust into a three-day lockdown in my hometown of Brisbane. I say lucky because we have—for the most part—observed the Covid pandemic from a place of warm and sunny immunity; while the world was ravaged by the millions, Queenslanders have slipped and dodged each threatening variant and local case by whatever fortuitous trait our environment seems to possess. As a tennis coach this has meant two things: no lessons, and plenty of Wimbledon. Afternoon music and drinks flow nicely into the 8pm start time on outside courts; snacks and tea and live score tracking continues late into the night. Drizzly mornings have made the coffee and endless match highlights all the more justified, before cosily perusing the following night’s order of play. Yes, I can safely say that Wimbledon has proved a very soothing balm to government’s most recent overreach, and I welcome all future hasty lockdowns if chaperoned by Grand Slam tennis.

The kernel of this essay was born out of a chance viewing of Elvis Presley’s ‘Suspicious Minds’ during yesterday's afternoon of Pet Nat and cards. YouTube’s algorithm doesn’t have to be all that smart to suggest such a clip; Live in Las Vegas, 'The King' was pure energy and entertainment. Check it out below:

I had always been somewhat familiar with Elvis, I'd heard his songs and experienced all the cultural references that still reverberate well into this century, but I had never bothered to sit down and experience Elvis. For me, this was one of those rare eureka moments where the goosebumps come on and a little smile breaks out across your face as you realise what you've missed, but can now plainly see; greatness.

I’m sure most of you are familiar with his songs and the words to those songs, and listening to Elvis purr through a rock 'n roll number is up there with the all-time great musical experiences, but what elevated Elvis beyond his music was how he performed those songs; Elvis witnessed was something completely over and above Elvis heard.

Is it a perfect performance? Probably not, the King is sweaty and out of breath as he jolts his body through the drums, and he's clearly on some marching powder (as he alludes to at 0:53 seconds). By this stage in his career Elvis is a falling messiah, the casino his temple, which only served to make his fans shout with even more adoration. The energy and style is fully felt in his fist-shaking, gyrating mess of hair and leather. Watching carefully, much of the performance is ad libbed—he riffs off of the crowd and teases the other musicians. The song becomes less of a recital and more of a feeling, and I think that was a big part of what captivated people. That bundle of voice, looks, charm, and spontaneous energy was once-in-a-lifetime. In the end, showbiz nailed him to a cross of his own making, and he died well before his time.

And so I went about my night with this Elvis performance turning over in my head, wondering what it had to do with other things, and tennis of course, which inevitably leads to the Big 3 and the never-ending GOAT debate. Everyone has an opinion. Some say there is no GOAT (an argument I can get around), and some say it's player (x) because of (y) and (z). I do like to hear what the pros think on the matter, and ahead of his second-round clash with Roger Federer, Richard Gasquet offered this timely gem on the Swiss maestro:

"He's the best player of course. His technique is amazing. Sometimes we are talking a lot about the best player in history or something like that and wonder who will win the most Grand Slams. But of course there are other things. There is technique, the beauty of the game, the motion. He's a classic player, he's an incredible player, the best player to watch. There is only one Roger Federer."

Of course the Frenchman with flair says that technique and beauty matter! The Djokovic fans firmly disagree; it is purely a numbers game, and his odds of ending up on top are looking very good indeed. Like Elvis, Roger is also a falling messiah, the centre court of Wimbledon his temple, as he looks to turn back time for one more Slam. His once untouchable record now rests on the racquet of not one, but two of his main rivals.

I'll preface this next part by saying that, as a coach, I think Djokovic is the best player of all-time. Rafa on clay is in his own category, and that is the highest peak in tennis that I've ever seen, but across 52-weeks of the year, Djokovic comes out on top. He's too solid. He's almost too professional . And what I mean by that is he's taken his game to a level of efficiency and completeness that is hard to appreciate for the lay tennis punter who tunes in casually. Fans want to see something exciting, that's ultimately what sport is, it's just another form of entertainment; risk, improvisation, intensity, contrast. What you get with Djokovic is a masterclass in percentage tennis. It's calculated, ruthless, and incredibly athletic, but it's hard to appreciate depth and subtle changes of direction compared to, say, a flick one-handed backhand with that crucified finish, or a running snap forehand that Rafa curls in from the stands with that trademark high whipped swing.
 

Zoid

Hall of Fame
It should be clear to most who follow the sport closely that Djokovic's talent and skill is never going to be appreciated like that of Federer's or Nadal's. It's simply not iconic enough for your average viewer. Even as he sets off on a record-equalling Grand Slam campaign in his quest for the Grand Slam, the tennis world isn't exactly talking about it. From the smooth and technically sound strokes, the constricting depth and placement and pixel-perfect lego hair, there's not enough to cling to. Andy Murray and his geriatric hip has delivered all the narrative a cooped up British public wants for the moment, and who could blame them? He's a shadow of himself, yet he simply won't quit as he limps and grimaces his way through matches. Of course, the death of an athlete—and I mean their sporting death—is easy pickings. Any retiring major champ gets plenty of coverage toward the end. Federer's triumphant return has also taken up quite a bit of ink, and as long as he remains in the tournament it will stay that way.

The lack of fervour is not any fault of Djokovic's—I think many athletes today are driven to a similar fate. The sporting landscape has been industrialised, professionalised, athletically auto-tuned. And I get it. Improved performance is a science; you build strength, you program technique with mass repetition, you drill tactics. To become an autonomous, poker-faced machine is desirable for much of a performance. The result is a stronger, more efficient player, but one that often has its character and idiosyncrasy chiseled out. The fact that Federer's elegance shines through his efficient technique is a gift; it's part of his DNA, the same way Elvis' voice was. You can't teach that. Contrasting this, Rafa's intensity and physicality also stems from a pedigree of world class athletes. He was a born athlete, biceps and all. These two are anomalies, and we sense that when we watch them. No amount of drilling or coaching can replicate what they have. And so wedged in the grey, undefined area between them sits Djokovic. Efficient like Federer, yet not quite as efficient. Athletic like Rafa, yet not quite as athletic. Perhaps people feel what Djokovic offers is more manufactured, it's a 'but I could do that if I tried' mentality. You can't.

Another gifted star who naturally mesmerises, Nick Kyrgios, probably touched on something true when addressing one of his many (mostly unwarranted) gripes with the Serbian champ when he said Djokovic "has a sick obsession with being liked." Whilst I don't think he is obsessed with being liked, you get the sense he feels he deserves more (doesn't he?). In a way, his perfectly balanced and efficient game is the gift and the curse; He wins easily, it's a tennis masterclass that any budding player should try and emulate, but it struggles to work up the mob.

I'm sure many of you have seen the movie 'Gladiator', starring Russell Crowe as general-turned-slave Maximus. There's a scene in the film where Maximus takes on five or six gladiators on his own. It's one of his early small-time battles—the ancient Roman equivalent of a Challengers event—and Maximus, being one of Rome's greatest warriors, absolutely melts the lot of them in defiance against his owner, Proximo:
Maximus' disdain for the whole spectacle is what makes the crowd initially love him. His sword throwing fit and mocking cry, "are you not entertained?" is one of the most famous contemporary memes today. There is tension here and contrast that is so easy to love; Maximus is a brilliant fighter, he's ruthlessly efficient as he slashes and stabs with impunity, yet the Roman games disgust him; to win his freedom and survive, he must kill many other slaves. But he soon learns that simply killing his opponents in quick fashion won't be enough. The Roman Emperor, Commodus, can order the death of a gladiator and Rome will not bat an eye. Maximus needs to make himself an icon—something the mob adores—if he is to live. And to do that, he must entertain, as Proximo explains:
Proximo: "Then listen to me. Learn from me. I wasn't the best because I killed quickly. I was the best because the crowd loved me. Win the crowd. And you will win your freedom."
Maximus: "I will win the crowd. I will give them something they have never seen before."

And so it is for many with the GOAT debate. It's not enough to simply win—sport is littered with dominant athletes who aren't revered for one reason or another. There's no question Ali captivated a crowd like no other boxer; 'Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee,' He was fast, he was cocky, and (importantly) he lost. I think this fallen hero aspect has some place in the collective conscience that we are drawn to. Our heroes are revered more when we see how human they are. Tiger Woods's Masters win in 2019 was perhaps his greatest because of the fall from grace he had endured years earlier. Watching Nadal lose early at Wimbledon after a superhuman clay court swing, the body in tatters, helps to juxtapose just how taxing all that sliding and hustle was. To see him rise again at the US Open, against the odds, a boisterous crowd, that is almost greater theatre than his clay court exploits. Federer's tears after the 2009 Australian Open final, losing again to his nemesis in five-sets. It was heartbreaking and it was relatable. We like watching the brilliance, but we love watching the hurt.

Gasquet is just one player, and he's not a GOAT by any stretch (although that backhand is GOAT-level), but I think his view is one shared by many. It won't matter to some how many titles Djokovic amasses, Federer and Nadal hold a place in people's hearts that can't be shifted with numbers.

Maybe when Djokovic starts to stumble and lose he will win his moment with the mob. It's looking very likely the numbers will be all there, on that front most are in agreement. What he has done is worthy of GOAT-hood, but how he has done it—so far—has failed to capture the hearts and minds of the tennis public. No matter where you stand in the debate, I hope you can appreciate all three for what they have given tennis these last 15-plus years. When they're gone—and it won't be long now—tennis will find out just how fickle the mob is.
 

daphne

Hall of Fame
I appreciate the effort and time invested in your posting, mate. Objectively interesting. I wanted to add just this small part, not much else.

"Maybe when Djokovic starts to stumble and lose he will win his moment with the mob. It's looking very likely the numbers will be all there, on that front most are in agreement. What he has done is worthy of GOAT-hood, but how he has done it—so far—has failed to capture the hearts and minds of the tennis public. "

This is the perception/ narrative created by the all seeing eye - media. You are not being objective entirely because you are looking from the perspective the Western media has created for us. If you really want to step out of this simulacrum you need to read non-Western media sources too.
 

Biotic

Hall of Fame
Great read. But, yeah I kinda agree with @daphne.

It's no longer about Djokovic asking for support. Right now, it's almost like the mob wants him to do something different so they can like him better. Fallen hero is great and all, but not happening with Djokovic. We saw it in 2017. And I'm glad it's that way. He shouldn't follow in the wake of anyone.

I like this antihero better.
 

Jai

Professional
Nice read, but I would think the last bit needs a bit of calibration because it's not entirely true. Novak will never be as popular as Federer certainly, maybe not as much as Rafa either, though the latter is a bit debatable.

But if (and I think it's when) the slam record is tied and then crossed, I think the majority of reasonable opinion will accept Novak as the greatest in terms of accomplishments. Fed will always be held in special regard for his supreme elegance when on song, but I think most reasonable fans, and of course tennis historians, analysts and media will appreciate overall achievements and records which Novak holds, and acknowledge him as the Greatest in terms of those results. Saying he is not going to be accepted as such, is not really accurate.
 
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Milanez82

Hall of Fame
Even though Novak is the best player ever, he will always struggle to get goat approval because how he wins is less iconic.
Eventually it will be all about the numbers and his numbers if he achieves them and they stand, will be a big footnote in the history when looking back.
Estethics are only temporary and down the line most won't remember how anybody played.
Do you think anyone now goes back to watch tapes of Laver to judge on his place in history of tennis? No. They look at his achievements and the 2 grand slams he achieved. No one really cares if it looked pretty (and as you say esthetics are subjective, who is to say that pummeling back serves with returns landing at servers feet isn't just as pretty)

And if Rafa wins next us open, the narrative will change really fast so all this talk is too soon
 

upchuck

Hall of Fame
First of all, Djokovic is already starting to lead Nadal in GOAT polls. Federer is the next one for him to topple.

The fact is most pundits and commentators, people like John McEnroe and Mary Carillo and Chris Fowler who are paid to be objective, are already declaring Djokovic the GOAT and will do so even more if he wins Wimbledon. Those are kinds of perspective that will have the greatest cultural resonance in terms of who is considered the greatest, not the opinions of fans who can't hide their subjectivity. You are delusional if you think the opinions of fanboys will matter here.
 
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bnjkn

Professional
What Djokovic does is incredible and he obviously deserves to be acknowledged as a legend of the sport and perhaps even as the GOAT. I do think that Federer plays tennis as it should ideally be played, however. Federer to me is sublime and iconic.
 

Jai

Professional
What Djokovic does is incredible and he obviously deserves to be acknowledged as a legend of the sport and perhaps even as the GOAT. I do think that Federer plays tennis as it should ideally be played, however. Federer to me is sublime and iconic.
Fair enough. This is precisely the way it's most likely going to land up being evaluated. Fed will be the one acclaimed as the most sublime player, and Novak will be the one considered Greatest in terms of accomplishments. And that's fine. It needn't be that the person who plays most exquisitely has also achieved the most. Only in rabid fan wars is this confluence considered a necessity.
 

bnjkn

Professional
Fair enough. This is precisely the way it's most likely going to land up being evaluated. Fed will be the one acclaimed as the most sublime player, and Novak will be the one considered Greatest in terms of accomplishments. And that's fine. It needn't be that the person who plays most exquisitely has also achieved the most. Only in rabid fan wars is this confluence considered a necessity.
That's how I think. Of course since I'm a big Federer fan I would love for him to be the most accomplished. But facts are facts and I think I will sound like an idiot if I keep trying to resist the facts, and I don't want that. I agree with everything you said.
 
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Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
I appreciate the effort and time invested in your posting, mate. Objectively interesting. I wanted to add just this small part, not much else.

"Maybe when Djokovic starts to stumble and lose he will win his moment with the mob. It's looking very likely the numbers will be all there, on that front most are in agreement. What he has done is worthy of GOAT-hood, but how he has done it—so far—has failed to capture the hearts and minds of the tennis public. "

This is the perception/ narrative created by the all seeing eye - media. You are not being objective entirely because you are looking from the perspective the Western media has created for us. If you really want to step out of this simulacrum you need to read non-Western media sources too.

Oh?

So whose hearts and minds has he captured, outside of Serbia?

By the way, this is a great article, OP, with the exception that he hasn't done enough to achieve GOAT-hood yet. That comes with 21 slams and not a day before.
 

Jai

Professional
Oh?

So whose hearts and minds has he captured, outside of Serbia?

By the way, this is a great article, OP, with the exception that he hasn't done enough to achieve GOAT-hood yet. That comes with 21 slams and not a day before.
Ermm....I can assure you he's very popular indeed in India. Yes, Fed is more popular, but Novak does have a very large fan base here. As I was mentioning to another poster earlier, considering the size of India's population, the size of Novak's fanbase here alone, likely outstrips the entire population of some other countries. :) And I believe, from what news articles are available, that he's very popular in China too - another gargantuan country.

Look, no one's saying he's more popular than Fed. :) but saying he's only popular in Serbia is laughably reductive.

I agree with you about the article for the most part, except that I don't think it will take till 21 for the conclusion to be reached, a tie at 20 will do. That's IMO, and I know you have a different one, and that's ok. Anyway, I do think the chances are very likely that Novak would reach 21 (or more). Let's see. :)
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Ermm....I can assure you he's very popular indeed in India. Yes, Fed is more popular, but Novak does have a very large fan base here. As I was mentioning to another poster earlier, considering the size of India's population, the size of Novak's fanbase here alone, likely outstrips the entire population of some other countries. :) And I believe, from what news articles are available, that he's very popular in China too - another gargantuan country.

Look, no one's saying he's more popular than Fed. :) but saying he's only popular in Serbia is laughably reductive.

I agree with you about the article for the most part, except that I don't think it will take till 21 for the conclusion to be reached, a tie at 20 will do. That's IMO, and I know you have a different one, and that's ok. Anyway, I do think the chances are very likely that Novak would reach 21 (or more). Let's see. :)

Can you or anyone else provide proof of his supposed massive popularity in these countries?
 

daphne

Hall of Fame
Oh?

So whose hearts and minds has he captured, outside of Serbia?

By the way, this is a great article, OP, with the exception that he hasn't done enough to achieve GOAT-hood yet. That comes with 21 slams and not a day before.
Go read it up yourself.
 

NonP

Legend
As the tennis season approaches its zenith heading into the second week of Wimbledon, I’ve been lucky enough to be thrust into a three-day lockdown in my hometown of Brisbane. I say lucky because we have—for the most part—observed the Covid pandemic from a place of warm and sunny immunity; while the world was ravaged by the millions, Queenslanders have slipped and dodged each threatening variant and local case by whatever fortuitous trait our environment seems to possess. As a tennis coach this has meant two things: no lessons, and plenty of Wimbledon. Afternoon music and drinks flow nicely into the 8pm start time on outside courts; snacks and tea and live score tracking continues late into the night. Drizzly mornings have made the coffee and endless match highlights all the more justified, before cosily perusing the following night’s order of play. Yes, I can safely say that Wimbledon has proved a very soothing balm to government’s most recent overreach, and I welcome all future hasty lockdowns if chaperoned by Grand Slam tennis.

The kernel of this essay was born out of a chance viewing of Elvis Presley’s ‘Suspicious Minds’ during yesterday's afternoon of Pet Nat and cards. YouTube’s algorithm doesn’t have to be all that smart to suggest such a clip; Live in Las Vegas, 'The King' was pure energy and entertainment. Check it out below:

I had always been somewhat familiar with Elvis, I'd heard his songs and experienced all the cultural references that still reverberate well into this century, but I had never bothered to sit down and experience Elvis. For me, this was one of those rare eureka moments where the goosebumps come on and a little smile breaks out across your face as you realise what you've missed, but can now plainly see; greatness.

I’m sure most of you are familiar with his songs and the words to those songs, and listening to Elvis purr through a rock 'n roll number is up there with the all-time great musical experiences, but what elevated Elvis beyond his music was how he performed those songs; Elvis witnessed was something completely over and above Elvis heard.

Is it a perfect performance? Probably not, the King is sweaty and out of breath as he jolts his body through the drums, and he's clearly on some marching powder (as he alludes to at 0:53 seconds). By this stage in his career Elvis is a falling messiah, the casino his temple, which only served to make his fans shout with even more adoration. The energy and style is fully felt in his fist-shaking, gyrating mess of hair and leather. Watching carefully, much of the performance is ad libbed—he riffs off of the crowd and teases the other musicians. The song becomes less of a recital and more of a feeling, and I think that was a big part of what captivated people. That bundle of voice, looks, charm, and spontaneous energy was once-in-a-lifetime. In the end, showbiz nailed him to a cross of his own making, and he died well before his time.

I agree with the gist of your essay, but Elvis' true GOATness lies not in the "King of Rock 'n' Roll" mythology or his objectively overhyped showmanship - his contemporary James Brown clearly outclassed him in the latter area well before the planetary superstardom of Michael Jackson and Madonna - but in his overlooked kingship as probably the greatest ballad crooner since Sinatra:

Now let's switch genders. Check out this towering "Unchained Melody," which per an article recently posted by @Mike Bulgakov may well be Elvis' very last public performance:


Whitney may wow with her powerhouse vocals in "I Will Always Love You," but she never tickles your innermost gut, let alone rips it inside out like Elvis does here. In fact not even Bobby Hatfield of the Righteous Brothers, despite his own felicitous touches, manages to equal the King's almost spiritual transcendence, which is why I keep vacillating between their two renditions as the best this chestnut has received to date.

Of course the likelihood that this was his very last public performance gives it extra meaning, but this bone-chilling "Unchained Melody" or the Vegas "Suspicious Minds"? No contest for moi.

Great read. But, yeah I kinda agree with @daphne.

It's no longer about Djokovic asking for support. Right now, it's almost like the mob wants him to do something different so they can like him better. Fallen hero is great and all, but not happening with Djokovic. We saw it in 2017. And I'm glad it's that way. He shouldn't follow in the wake of anyone.

I like this antihero better.

Ditto:

And my boy Djokovic has always been something of a dweeb compared to Fed and Rafa, which is what turned me into a lifelong fan in the first place but alienated him from many in this extrovert-friendly world. I seriously doubt he would've been as popular as either Fedal had he been born and bred in a New York, Paris or London.

Put another way, the day he becomes another corporate darling/fan favorite a la Federer is the day I start questioning my Djokovic fandom. But we probably don't need to worry about that anytime soon, given his ongoing PTPA project which may well prove to be his most enduring legacy.
 

Jai

Professional
Can you or anyone else provide proof of his supposed massive popularity in these countries?
What "proof" would satisfy you? :) I ask since I have been bitten before by shifting goalposts and outright denials from some "fans" on here. Notably, there was a fan who went on and on beating the same falsehood even after I'd sent him 4 different news articles clearly proving his statements were false.

So tell me, what do you need?
 

Jai

Professional
@Phoenix1983 , here you go. Couple of articles speaking of Novak's massive popularity in China. I can send you some for India too, you needn't be so skeptical all the time :)



Look, no one is claiming Fed is less popular than Novak. But claiming, as you did, that Novak has only Serbian fans is completely untrue. He is very popular in other countries, too.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
@Phoenix1983 , here you go. Couple of articles speaking of Novak's massive popularity in China. I can send you some for India too, you needn't be so skeptical all the time :)



Look, no one is claiming Fed is less popular than Novak. But claiming, as you did, that Novak has only Serbian fans is completely untrue. He is very popular in other countries, too.

I can only read the first three lines unfortunately, due to lack of access. I wonder why some Chinese worship Novak Djokovic :unsure:
 

Jai

Professional
I can only read the first three lines unfortunately, due to lack of access. I wonder why some Chinese worship Novak Djokovic :unsure:
Oh come on :) there are two seperate article links there. Surely the first one is not behind a pay wall. :-D
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Oh come on :) there are two seperate article links there. Surely the first one is not behind a pay wall. :-D

I genuinely didn't notice the first link.

So basically he's popular there because it sounds like he's the only foreign tennis star who bothers with their social media platforms etc. :-D
 

Jai

Professional
I genuinely didn't notice the first link.

So basically he's popular there because it sounds like he's the only foreign tennis star who bothers with their social media platforms etc. :-D
:) ok, whatever you like to conclude as cause and effect, if that makes you feel better. Just so you know, India doesn't have any separate social media platforms like Weibo, and Novak is very popular here, too. But I'm sure there will be some other "explanation" for that too. :) Bottom line - he is very popular in many other countries than his home country. It is what it is.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
The fact is most pundits and commentators, people like John McEnroe and Mary Carillo and Chris Fowler who are paid to be objective
None of them are paid to be objective and none of them are.

McEnroe proclaimed Federer GOAT when he had only 7 slams and was 7-0 in slam finals. Never mind that Pete had twice that many majors at that point. He's also declared Nadal to be GOAT when he was 3 slams off Roger's total. Mac, Wilander and Becker routinely make asinine statements prior to slams so they get a tiny shred of attention to feed their egos.

This utter obsession Djokovic fans have for a stranger to be GOAT blows my mind. If and when he reaches 21, he's the GOAT. And how that improves your own lives remains an eternal mystery.
 

Jai

Professional
None of them are paid to be objective and none of them are.

McEnroe proclaimed Federer GOAT when he had only 7 slams and was 7-0 in slam finals. Never mind that Pete had twice that many majors at that point. He's also declared Nadal to be GOAT when he was 3 slams off Roger's total. Mac, Wilander and Becker routinely make asinine statements prior to slams so they get a tiny shred of attention to feed their egos.

This utter obsession Djokovic fans have for a stranger to be GOAT blows my mind. If and when he reaches 21, he's the GOAT. And how that improves your own lives remains an eternal mystery.

You've got to be kidding yourself if you think the obsession for GOAT debate is limited to one fanbase. :)
 

upchuck

Hall of Fame
None of them are paid to be objective and none of them are.

McEnroe proclaimed Federer GOAT when he had only 7 slams and was 7-0 in slam finals. Never mind that Pete had twice that many majors at that point. He's also declared Nadal to be GOAT when he was 3 slams off Roger's total. Mac, Wilander and Becker routinely make asinine statements prior to slams so they get a tiny shred of attention to feed their egos.

This utter obsession Djokovic fans have for a stranger to be GOAT blows my mind. If and when he reaches 21, he's the GOAT. And how that improves your own lives remains an eternal mystery.
Djokovic fans? You're projecting your own feelings quite a bit there bud.

Myself and many Djokovic fans have for years had NO problems saying Federer was the GOAT...because he was. It's now only Federer fans who, despite the facts, insist on entitling their guy to the GOAT status forever and ever.
 

daphne

Hall of Fame
None of them are paid to be objective and none of them are.

McEnroe proclaimed Federer GOAT when he had only 7 slams and was 7-0 in slam finals. Never mind that Pete had twice that many majors at that point. He's also declared Nadal to be GOAT when he was 3 slams off Roger's total. Mac, Wilander and Becker routinely make asinine statements prior to slams so they get a tiny shred of attention to feed their egos.

This utter obsession Djokovic fans have for a stranger to be GOAT blows my mind. If and when he reaches 21, he's the GOAT. And how that improves your own lives remains an eternal mystery.
It does not matter if it improves lives or not. It just won't be Fedr!
 

Zoid

Hall of Fame
I appreciate the effort and time invested in your posting, mate. Objectively interesting. I wanted to add just this small part, not much else.

"Maybe when Djokovic starts to stumble and lose he will win his moment with the mob. It's looking very likely the numbers will be all there, on that front most are in agreement. What he has done is worthy of GOAT-hood, but how he has done it—so far—has failed to capture the hearts and minds of the tennis public. "

This is the perception/ narrative created by the all seeing eye - media. You are not being objective entirely because you are looking from the perspective the Western media has created for us. If you really want to step out of this simulacrum you need to read non-Western media sources too.

You're probably right, but I think there have been other non-western players who break that argument. Marat Safin, for example, was wildly popular when he was playing - aggressive, charismatic, and very talented.
 

Zoid

Hall of Fame
Nice read, but I would think the last bit needs a bit of calibration because it's not entirely true. Novak will never be as popular as Federer certainly, maybe not as much as Rafa either, though the latter is a bit debatable.

But if (and I think it's when) the slam record is tied and then crossed, I think the majority of reasonable opinion will accept Novak as the greatest in terms of accomplishments. Fed will always be held in special regard for his supreme elegance when on song, but I think most reasonable fans, and of course tennis historians, analysts and media will appreciate overall achievements and records which Novak holds, and acknowledge him as the Greatest in terms of those results. Saying he is not going to be accepted as such, is not really accurate.

Yeah, maybe you are right on that one. It's interesting though, Mayweather is an undefeated boxer, has a much better record than Ali, but I don't think he will ever come close to Ali's reverence.
 

Milanez82

Hall of Fame
Yeah, maybe you are right on that one. It's interesting though, Mayweather is an undefeated boxer, has a much better record than Ali, but I don't think he will ever come close to Ali's reverence.
Boxing was kind of at its peak back then, plus Ali was larger then life
 

Zoid

Hall of Fame
I agree with the gist of your essay, but Elvis' true GOATness lies not in the "King of Rock 'n' Roll" mythology or his objectively overhyped showmanship - his contemporary James Brown clearly outclassed him in the latter area well before the planetary superstardom of Michael Jackson and Madonna - but in his overlooked kingship as probably the greatest ballad crooner since Sinatra:



Of course the likelihood that this was his very last public performance gives it extra meaning, but this bone-chilling "Unchained Melody" or the Vegas "Suspicious Minds"? No contest for moi.



Ditto:



Put another way, the day he becomes another corporate darling/fan favorite a la Federer is the day I start questioning my Djokovic fandom. But we probably don't need to worry about that anytime soon, given his ongoing PTPA project which may well prove to be his most enduring legacy.

Yeah, I am no Elvis expert, I just stumbled upon that clip of Suspicious Minds and was completely blown away. I'm not familiar with his whole body of work, but that performance was enough to make me realise why he was so influential. I will have to look up James Brown's performances. I am familiar with some of his songs.

As a coach, Djokovic is the most complete player I've seen. If I was teach tennis today it would pretty much be Novak's game as it is now. The forehand is strong, backhand is GOAT, movement is equal GOAT, serve is now severely underrated and the most improved part of his game the last few years. Even his volleys are pretty good now.

When all is said and done Novak is going to have at least 20-odd slams and be clear of fedal. I think his legacy will grow AFTER his career (unlike Fedal's who amassed their status as they played each other), as people look back on his numbers. Truly incredible.
 

Zoid

Hall of Fame
Boxing was kind of at its peak back then, plus Ali was larger then life

Good points. Boxing seems like a mess today, but business aside, Mayweather is not in the same league in terms of showmanship (in or out of the ring). Tyson was exciting because he had never-before-seen speed and power. That was a huge drawcard for a while. Forgive me because I have very limited boxing knowledge, but Mayweather seems like a technically very proficient and calculated boxer, but not overly exciting. He is risk averse in his style a bit? Maybe in picking his opponents to preserve his record? Correct me if i am wrong.
 

daphne

Hall of Fame
You're probably right, but I think there have been other non-western players who break that argument. Marat Safin, for example, was wildly popular when he was playing - aggressive, charismatic, and very talented.
So? Does it mean that they all need to be fit within one and the same matrix?
 

Djokodal Fan

Hall of Fame
Media always placed Agassi over Sampras when they were in the prime. Sampras was considered dull while Agassi was considered showman and media darling.

Now let's fast forward 15 years after their retirement and check who is more revered and considered as special.

Folks will forget the popularity and media bias, but records will stand test of time and Djokovic will etch his name in history books and will be the name to beat when all is said and done (if he gets to 20 slams or moves beyond).

You can bookmark this post and reply if that doesn't happen. But given most folks are keyboard warriors here, they'll just flee when that happens.
 
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NonP

Legend
Yeah, I am no Elvis expert, I just stumbled upon that clip of Suspicious Minds and was completely blown away. I'm not familiar with his whole body of work, but that performance was enough to make me realise why he was so influential. I will have to look up James Brown's performances. I am familiar with some of his songs.

As a coach, Djokovic is the most complete player I've seen. If I was teach tennis today it would pretty much be Novak's game as it is now. The forehand is strong, backhand is GOAT, movement is equal GOAT, serve is now severely underrated and the most improved part of his game the last few years. Even his volleys are pretty good now.

When all is said and done Novak is going to have at least 20-odd slams and be clear of fedal. I think his legacy will grow AFTER his career (unlike Fedal's who amassed their status as they played each other), as people look back on his numbers. Truly incredible.

It's a transcendent performance, one that the likes of Barbra, Celine, Mariah and Christina could only dream of approximating despite their superior pipes. In fact you probably can count on the fingers of one hand the number of pop singers who could match Elvis here. As a general rule I much prefer serious/soft Elvis to his better-known King persona.

As for the Godfather of Soul, Brown's Apollo concerts are legendary so if you haven't seen/heard 'em you should start there:


Light on his trademark dancing/pyrotechnics - there's no Michael Jackson or Prince without James Brown - but all the better for it. And the singing is sensational.

As a Novak fan myself I agree he's the most complete player of the OE... in a way. Here's how I see it:

Depends on the criteria, of course. Here are the correct picks, limited to the past 45 years or so (read: post-Laver):

Borg - surface versatility
McEnroe - racquet wizardry, which in turn makes him the toughest matchup for the majority
Sampras - all-court genius and peak offense
Federer - shot/skill versatility
Nadal - perhaps the winningest of 'em all (yes, thanks to his huge leg up on clay)
Djokovic - across-the-board reliability

Honorable mention: Connors for being the most dogged, pesky competitor

Having said all that and with the usual caveats about old-timers I think Laver takes the top prize. The most compelling argument I've seen in favor of Rocket, one that on 1st glance might seem like a weakness, is that he doesn't have a single shot/skill that would be a consensus choice as the best in history... and yet he arguably has the most flawless, comprehensive resume ever. That just doesn't happen if the guy fails to clear the all-time top 10-20 in most of the key departments, and he probably checks them off more than any other ATG. In other words, the most complete player ever.

But gotta disagree that his serve has improved. Apart from his Martin and post-NCGS years it has always been one of his overlooked weapons, if not on par with Fed's (let alone Pete's):


It's that dip in 2016-18(ish) which likely gives the impression that he's now serving better than ever. Still pretty damn good, given the rest of his arsenal (like you said).

Good points. Boxing seems like a mess today, but business aside, Mayweather is not in the same league in terms of showmanship (in or out of the ring). Tyson was exciting because he had never-before-seen speed and power. That was a huge drawcard for a while. Forgive me because I have very limited boxing knowledge, but Mayweather seems like a technically very proficient and calculated boxer, but not overly exciting. He is risk averse in his style a bit? Maybe in picking his opponents to preserve his record? Correct me if i am wrong.

Not a boxing maven myself, but Mayweather's (way) overhyped bout with Pac happens to be the last fight I saw (almost) in full cuz the front desk receptionist/guard at my old condo had it on and I had just returned from a nite errand. So we're watching... and after the umpteenth cat-and-mouse routine from Floyd I'm like, people paid money for this?! And we all know what happened in the end.

Now the guy is probably the best defensive pound-for-pound fighter ever and I'm sure boxing connoisseurs appreciate the mad skills that went into it, but I really don't remember watching such a boring fight and even after factoring in the different media landscapes it's no wonder Mayweather never commanded the public's attention like Tyson. Throw in his shady history with women (a close female friend absolutely loathes him) and the relative lack of marquee names today and you've got a boxing legend who may not be much of a legend in his own era.
 
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