Every open era great has won the YEC

[Deleted member 770948]

So do you think Miami, Shanghai and Paris also have no credibility?

Nothing has credibility when compared to the slams.
That's why when Nadal had won the most masters titles, hardly anyone talked about it, because everyone focused on Federer's slam record.
In fact even winning 4 slams in a row (Djokovic) has rarely been spoken about, because the total number of slams won is the big thing in tennis.

 

[Krish0608]

Nothing has credibility when compared to the slams.
That's why when Nadal had won the most masters titles, hardly anyone talked about it, because everyone focused on Federer's slam record.
In fact even winning 4 slams in a row (Djokovic) has rarely been spoken about, because the total number of slams won is the big thing in tennis.

But that's not the tune you guys sang till Rafa got to 20. Till then it was all about the H2H. VB has zero credibility lol. Like it or not, YEC is the biggest event in tennis after the slams. Rafa not winning it won't take anything away from it's prestige.

 

[mike danny]

Yes, because he has 20 slams.
More importantly, Dimitrov winning it, and the other slamless guys, make it look meaningless.

Costa, Johansson and Gaudio have won slams. 2 of those at RG even. I guess we know how important RG is in that case.

 

[TMF]

The fact that Dimitrov has won it, and other slamless dudes like Zverev, Tsitsipas, Medvedev, proves how irrelevant the ATP Finals are when compared to slams.
That is why I said a few weeks ago that the credibility of the ATP Finals will continue to suffer if a slamless player wins the 2020 ATP Finals, and that therefore I don't want Nadal to win the ATP Finals.
If Nadal wins the ATP Finals then Federer/Djokovic benefit, because their great records at the ATP Finals become more valuable as the credibility of the ATP Finals is restored by Nadal's victory.

And that fact that many slam winners have never won the prestigious WTF. It works against your biased point.

 

[TMF]

Yes, because he has 20 slams.
More importantly, Dimitrov winning it, and the other slamless guys, make it look meaningless.

If the WTF is that easy to win, why Nadal can't win at least one? Simple answer: he's not good enough to win on indoor. Just like Dimitrov isn't good enough to win a slam.

 

[Genious at Work]

WTF has rich history in the past 50 years. Djokovic(and Berdych) have said the YEC is up there with the grand slam.

When Djokovic loses the WTF he brushes it off. When he loses the Olympic Gold he cries like a baby.

Sure, the WTF is no joke, but neither is the Olympics.

 

[Genious at Work]

Really? Nicolas Massu has the OG, while Nadal has no WTF. That's all you need to know.

Fed has no OG but has multiple Basel tournaments. What it means?

 

[Mainad]

Fed has no OG but has multiple Basel tournaments. What it means?

He majors in minors?

 

[Genious at Work]

I disagree. Like I said, tennis in the Olympic is minuscule when comparing to other major sport like track-and-field. There were years that tennis was not part of the Olympic, and even when it was, some players(i.e. Sampras) skipped the tournament and chose to play small event in the interstate.

The WTF is minuscule compared to the slams, so when Nadal has the most slams this conversation will be moot. Until then you can clutch at your last straw. MWAHAHAHAHA

 

[Genious at Work]

He majors in minors?

Oh, no. That guy Epstein also majored in minors and things didn't end up well for him.

Sometimes I make myself so very mad. Self reported.

 

[mike danny]

Fed has no OG but has multiple Basel tournaments. What it means?

That what you said is not the best argument?

 

[DSH]

WTF is the best tournament the ATP has.
However, there are only four premier events in tennis, AO, RG, W, and the USO.
Those Majors tournaments are the pinnacle of this sport.

 

[Karma Tennis]

I place Lennart Bergelin in the same category as Toni Nadal and Marian Vajda. All 3 acted as father figures and close mentors to their respective clients, more so than just being a mere coach.

For sure they were "Father Figures". All three provided the "shoulders" from which their respective players could see what was possible.

WTF is the best tournament the ATP has.

If this year's ATP Cup is anything to go by, it is only a matter of time before the WTF Tournament is usurped.

 

[Mainad]

If this year's ATP Cup is anything to go by, it is only a matter of time before the WTF Tournament is usurped.

Don't see how. Completely different tournaments, one team, one individual, played at opposite parts of the season.

 

[landcookie]

Nadal hasn't. Ergo your statement is false.

 

[Deleted member 770948]

If the WTF is that easy to win, why Nadal can't win at least one? Simple answer: he's not good enough to win on indoor. Just like Dimitrov isn't good enough to win a slam.

Every man and his dog would say Dimitrov isn't good enough to win the ATP Finals actually, because Nadal is significantly better than Dimitrov at the ATP Finals.
Its a tournament prone to upsets, because players are tired at the end of the year (not this year, but throughout Nadal's prime when he played a lot and had knee tendinitis flare-up), and the variable of it being indoors (helping the fragile servers like Medvedev who don't serve as well outdoors), and the horrible schedule (hurt Nadal in 2010 when he played the marathon with Murray and then played Federer the next day).
The top players win it, but so do the bottom players and the last 4 winners have been slamless.

 

[TMF]

Every man and his dog would say Dimitrov isn't good enough to win the ATP Finals actually, because Nadal is significantly better than Dimitrov at the ATP Finals.
Its a tournament prone to upsets, because players are tired at the end of the year (not this year, but throughout Nadal's prime when he played a lot and had knee tendinitis flare-up), and the variable of it being indoors (helping the fragile servers like Medvedev who don't serve as well outdoors), and the horrible schedule (hurt Nadal in 2010 when he played the marathon with Murray and then played Federer the next day).
The top players win it, but so do the bottom players and the last 4 winners have been slamless.

If Nadal is better than Dimitrov at the ATP final then he should be able to win there. If he can't, maybe he has difficult competing on a tournament that only consists the top 8 and there's no easy match from beginning to end. Also indoor is part of tennis, you can't say it's his worst surface/condition so he has a free pass for doing poorly there since he's an ATG,

Every players are mentally exhausted and physically drain at the end of the year, but that's part of the challenge. All players face the same adversities, no one has an advantage over the other, making excuse is saying "I'm not good enough to win".

 

[victorcruz]

Than I guess Nadal is not an open era great. What can I say? 20 slams is not enough for some nerds on the internet.

 

[Karma Tennis]

Than I guess Nadal is not an open era great. What can I say? 20 slams is not enough for some nerds on the internet.

If Rafa had won ONLY 10 Roland Garros Titles and a couple of Wimbledon Titles, he would still be an All Time Great.

Most of the nerds on the Internet are Hard Court freaks. Hard Court Tennis isn't real tennis for Tennis Puritans.

 

[Deleted member 770948]

If Nadal is better than Dimitrov at the ATP final then he should be able to win there. If he can't, maybe he has difficult competing on a tournament that only consists the top 8 and there's no easy match from beginning to end. Also indoor is part of tennis, you can't say it's his worst surface/condition so he has a free pass for doing poorly there since he's an ATG,

Every players are mentally exhausted and physically drain at the end of the year, but that's part of the challenge. All players face the same adversities, no one has an advantage over the other, making excuse is saying "I'm not good enough to win".

Dimitrov, Zverev, Tsitsipas, Medvedev have all won the ATP Finals where Nadal has nevertheless been more impressive with victories over Davydenko, Djokovic (twice), Federer, Murray (twice), Wawrinka (twice), Tsitsipas (twice), and was a service hold away from beating Medvedev 63 64 at the 2020 ATP Finals.

Some factors contributing to why Nadal hasn't won the ATP Finals:
Indoor conditions favor those who struggle outdoors, for example Medvedev's serve is inconsistent outdoors and brilliant indoors.
It is the last event of the year, and during Nadal's prime his knee tendinitis flared up late in the year, forcing him to withdraw.
The SF and Final have no day-off in between, and that hurt Nadal in 2010 when he beat Murray in a marathon and then played another marathon with Federer the next day.

Also Nadal won the 2020 French Open Final 60 62 75 (vs. Djokovic) with the roof closed, and Wimbledon 2018 Nadal only lost 10-8 5th Set (vs. Djokovic) with the roof closed.
If all the slams were played indoors, Nadal would win a lot more than Dimitrov (or any of the last 4 ATP Finals champions).
Actually I don't think Dimitrov would ever win a slam indoors.

 

[Genious at Work]

That what you said is not the best argument?

Let me rephrase: What it means?

 

[BackhandDTL]

WTF is a christmas exho. Get over it.

You're telling me artificial points/prize money inflation, gimmicky format, and crap timing make it prestigious?

I'd rather have Indian Wells or Rome. Be real. I don't think its more prestigious than your average masters.

Olympics is important but not relevant to the GOAT debate. Its held once every 4 years and its format is atypical. Bronze medal match? BO5 only in the final? Its not 2002 Masters Series anymore.

 

[game..set..match]

Than I guess Nadal is not an open era great. What can I say? 20 slams is not enough for some nerds on the internet.

definiltely ATG, but he can't be considered the GOAT without a finals title. its a huge blemish, like sampras not winning RG....can't be ignored at all.

 

[Karma Tennis]

definiltely ATG, but he can't be considered the GOAT without a finals title. its a huge blemish, like sampras not winning RG....can't be ignored at all.

Sampras probably would have traded all of his YECs for ONE Roland Garros Title. Pete is an ATG, but is automatically out of any GOAT discussion because he doesn't have an RG Title .. like his idol Laver.

 

[WhiskeyEE]

9 years later. How time flies!

I reworded the 2013 Nadal WTF song to mark the occasion. Credit to sbengte for the original.

'Twas time to conquer the final frontier , the one for which I pine
As the comeback king in my luckiest year, the title was all but mine
My group being a pigeon coop, I just had to show up and dine
So I left Paris in one fell swoop (ahem) and landed in Turin sipping wine

But Fritz and Felix played all ruthless, like Jerry did by Milos
Instead of bending over like they always used to, they treated me like a title-less zero
'Tis not right that I lose again, not by the hands of my Tio
So I place my faith in the God himself, please help me almighty Dios

I still can lift the Masters Cup, I just need a little luck...
But as I think what it'd take to win, I admit I'm a sitting duck
Will be the same result all over again, once the final ball is struck
You tailored the draw for me, but I still came up empty, WTF

 

[abmk]

9 years later. How time flies!

I reworded the 2013 Nadal WTF song to mark the occasion. Credit to sbengte for the original.

'Twas time to conquer the final frontier , the one for which I pine
As the comeback king in my luckiest year, the title was all but mine
My group being a pigeon coop, I just had to show up and dine
So I left Paris in one fell swoop (ahem) and landed in Turin sipping wine

But Fritz and Felix played all ruthless, like Jerry did by Milos
Instead of bending over like they always used to, they treated me like a title-less zero
'Tis not right that I lose again, not by the hands of my Tio
So I place my faith in the God himself, please help me almighty Dios

I still can lift the Masters Cup, I just need a little luck
But as I think what it'd take to win, I admit I'm a sitting duck
Will be the same result all over again, once the final ball is struck
You tailored the draw for me, but I still came up empty, WTF

Do you have the original song?

The thread is gone.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/rafas-wtf-song-2013-version.483024/#post-8111075

 

[WhiskeyEE]

Do you have the original song?

The thread is gone.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/rafas-wtf-song-2013-version.483024/#post-8111075

Was posted in this thread:

Cincinnati - the real Slam

I love that this thread, a cathedral of all that is TTW, is being used to remember the greatest threads of all time (GTOAT). Some I would like to throw in: I stand by Rogi, Flight of the Golden Eagle of Victory. Some of the poetry and work put in by the Poap @JoelDali and others truly shows...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[thrust]

Roger Federer – ’03, ’04, ’06, ’07, ’10, ‘11
Pete Sampras – ’91, ’94, ’96, ’97, ‘99
Ivan Lendl – ’81, ’82, ’85, ’86, ‘87
Bjorn Borg – ’79, ‘80
John McEnroe – ’78, ’83, ‘84
Jimmy Connors – ‘77
Andre Agassi – ‘90
Novak Djokovic – ’08, ‘12, '13
Stefan Edberg – ‘89


How can Rafael “I wish the WTF was played on clay” Nadal be considered an all-time great when he cannot accomplish something that every great player of the open era has?

What about Laver? He lost 2 WCT finals to Rosewall

 

[WhiskeyEE]

What about Laver? He lost 2 WCT finals to Rosewall

First YEC was held in 1970 and he never won a slam after 1969. Was after his prime.

The WCT finals he lost were in 71 and 72.

 

[thrust]

First YEC was held in 1970 and he never won a slam after 1969. Was after his prime.

The WCT finals he lost were in 71 and 72.

Laver got to the finals beating the best younger players but lost those finals to a guy 4 years older than he was. The WCT and WTF are the most important tournaments after the slams. The Olympics are a once every 4-year exhibition. Still the fact that Rafa never won the WTF does not diminish the fact that he is a tier ONE ATG player.

 

[Karma Tennis]

LOL about Laver.

He only won two GRAND SLAMS.

Still waiting for a male player after him to win one!

Laver, like most long term tennis fans, understands that the YEC is a mickey mouse tournament to round off the season.

The most important thing in Laver's day, is still the most important thing today ... the Major Singles Tournament Titles, the pursuit of the #1 Ranking, and the career GRAND SLAM ... and the Holy Grail of them all ... the calendar year GRAND SLAM.

 

[WhiskeyEE]

LOL about Laver.

He only won two GRAND SLAMS.

Still waiting for a male player after him to win one!

Laver, like most long term tennis fans, understands that the YEC is a mickey mouse tournament to round off the season.

The most important thing in Laver's day, is still the most important thing today ... the Major Singles Tournament Titles, the pursuit of the #1 Ranking, and the career GRAND SLAM ... and the Holy Grail of them all ... the calendar year GRAND SLAM.

This list is limited to players who competed for the bulk of their careers during the open era. Not to players who won their last grand slam before the YEC existed.

 

[thrust]

LOL about Laver.

He only won two GRAND SLAMS.

Still waiting for a male player after him to win one!

Laver, like most long term tennis fans, understands that the YEC is a mickey mouse tournament to round off the season.

The most important thing in Laver's day, is still the most important thing today ... the Major Singles Tournament Titles, the pursuit of the #1 Ranking, and the career GRAND SLAM ... and the Holy Grail of them all ... the calendar year GRAND SLAM.

Laver has said that losing those 2 WCT finals, especially the one in 72, was the most disappointing final he ever lost.

 

[Karma Tennis]

This list is limited to players who competed for the bulk of their careers during the open era. Not to players who won their last grand slam before the YEC existed.

So all those player who never achieved a single GRAND SLAM ... let alone two of them. Fair enough!

Laver has said that losing those 2 WCT finals, especially the one in 72, was the most disappointing final he ever lost.

I know. But he didn't say it because they were WCT Finals. He was commenting on the way he actually played them.

Laver lost several matches. Most of them he wasn't disappointed about the loss because he played really well and was beaten by the better player on the day.

From what I can remember, he felt that he actually LOST those two WCT Finals rather than his opponent "winning" them ... if you get my drift.

 

[djokovic the conqueror]

Nadal the perennial ATP Finals virgin.

Can’t win when there’s a roof and when he can’t vulture weak draws.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Not sure how a factually incorrect thread got to 11 pages when Wilander literally exists.